It would appear to be a big mistake for a “family” which is “above politics” to become so directly involved in such specific issues so charged with political implications……after all, if they were to become part of or identified with only one portion of the political spectrum, it would leave the other portions of the political spectrum free to go their separate ways and the “family” would no longer be able to credibly pose as “representing” the “Nation”………………(unless, of course, by the “Nation”, we are simply referring to the newspaper and its coterie of Editors)…….
Weird how the likes of Andrew Marshall at Reuters – someone with a great record of being anti-Thaksin , who has never done so hiding behind anonymity on a blog and who also has a huge knowledge of Thailand as well as being Reuters Chief Correspondent – completely and utterly disagrees with your review of the report.”
Andrew Marshall has not written knowledgeably about the tax treatment of the SHIN sale. So how can you say he completely and utterly disagrees with my review? Do his job and his former writings mean that he is automatically right in anything he writes on the subject of Thaksin? Some wire service chief correspondents are good and some not. So what? How do you know he has never written against Thaksin behind the anonymity of a blog, unless you are he? If you disagree with anonymous blogs, why not post here under your real name?
I would think the debate should be about whether the major source of red shirt funding was from Thaksin related sources or not, regardless of whether the funds came from outside the country or were already onshore. It seems a Gilesesque fantasy to suggest that the movement might be solvent without Thaksin but probably worth a try.
Apart from that red herring of the internal/external funding did anyone figure out what Jakraphop was actually trying to say? He seemed more incoherent than usual. Perhaps having to rely on the goodwill of a capricious thug like Hun Sen to stay out of prison is jangling his nerves.
P.S. I am no expert and with due respect to the English translator of the letter, cited by Khun double OK #1, I don’t think the translation captures certain wording of the letter quite well. In particular the Thai word р╕Хр╕нр╕Ър╣Вр╕Хр╣Й is, I believe, stronger than ‘defend’ in the translation. So is the word р╕вр╕╖р╕Щр╕Вр╕╢р╣Йр╕Щ, which, I think, is perhaps better rendered literally as “stand up” (to your duty as Thai). I probably should leave this to more qualifed users of both langauges than myself now.
Khun Andrew: I cannot confirm that the letter is authentic (and I would be very happy to prominently publish any evidence, or official statement, that it is not).
There is absolutely no question of the letter’s authenticity. As Khun ‘Patiwat’ says #2, no one would dare to forge HMQ signature.
The photo of the letter and the other two photos were first published on the Thai E-News websites this morning, followed shortly by Prachatai. The accompanying report at the two websites were virtually the same (Prachatai copying from / paraphrasing Thai E-news’). The report was noticeable for its careful matter-of-fact style, with absolutely no hint of editorial commentary / interpretation. In otherword, it’s absolutly legal.
Then later in the morning, Thai E-News pulled off the report first, then Prachatai followed suit. By the time, in these days and ages of internet and facebook, the three photos have of course already circulated far and wide. Why did the two websites pull off the report and photos? I’ve been told Thai E-news had been asked to do so by certain quarters, citing certain reason; they in turn asked Prachatai. I won’t repeat here the reason alledgely given, suffice to say that, if it turns out to be true, the wider public will see some further development on the issue. (I personally have some doubt, however.)
I suggest that there’s no doubt either, that the three photos must have been first ‘leaked’ or shown to others, possibly small circles of friends and relatives by Khun Napas herself and/or her family. It’s understandable, not every day one gets letter of commendation / endorsement from HMQ. Khun Napas and her family must have been very proud. Whether the photos then came into the hand of internet media by intention or accidentally, I really don’t know.
When I first saw the photos and read the letter this morning, I was myself quite shaken. It’s natural reaction of loyal subject, I suppose.
JM #1: Why is it “patronizing to write something like that” ? Is it patronizing to say the opposite, that they are incapable of making a decision about which party should govern? This has been said, & there have been moves afoot to incorporate that view in the constitution. Many Thais & farang are saying this kind of thing every day.
Personally, I find your “it’s about time the people of Thailand get a grip of the situation and start acting to bridge the gap” very patronizing, since it seems to imply an obvious solution, already out in the open, which the Thai people cannot or will not see. But you, of course, can see it.
Andrew McG Marshall, a leftist Scot with an Oxbridge education from which he obviously got a bit more than PM Opposite (e.g. he can argue extremely well, within the rules of academic debate, by backing his arguments with facts that are actually true & verifiable) is, in my opinion, not telling the “same old story”. He’s attempting to tell the whole story, & that is not the same thing. Thank Dog we do have journos like him, because otherwise, in the current situation we might be tempted to believe the local media & Facebook Heroes such as that dickhead who is the spokesperson for CRES.
I do, however, thoroughly agree with you when you state, “I think not.”
” … and that the assumption of superiority by the Bangkok middle classes is really a sign of their ignorance:
The urban middle class, in general, are uninformed and ignorant; their bias robs them of the opportunity to learn about their rural counterparts.
Many among the middle and upper classes in Bangkok have completely failed to grasp what is happening in their own country.
Yet among well-educated Thais in the middle and upper classes, who regard themselves as the guardians of democracy in Thailand, there appears to be little ability or willingness to think critically about the situation.
What is the point of being educated if you have forgotten how to think? ”
From my own experience, I have a chance to talk to many red-shirts urban poor in my office about democracy in Thailand. Surprisingly, they can lecture you about Thai political history since King Rama the 7th (the real version – not the one you learnt from school, though) and the Establishment propaganda. They admire Pridi and Dr.Puey. But when talking to my PAD elite friends, they just said E-sarn people are lazy and have been bought by Thaksin’s money. End of story! When I pursued for more details, they confessed that they don’t know much because they’re fully occupied with work and children.
Unless urban middle class learn to accept their ignorance, they are going nowhere. While rural poor are more and more well-informed, they are getting stronger and stronger day by day.
Well, StanG (#93), maybe that is because Amsterdam’s White Paper really does put the case for Thaksin and the UDD cogently and clearly, so that there is not a great deal to add . It is true that it really does not say much that is new, but what it does do is gather all the threads together in a way that no one has previously done as effectively. I think the case he makes is compelling and the longer it is left without any proper ad rem response – from the government, the PAD, the Thai media, the like of Somtow or even you and other anti-Thaksin posters here – the more compelling it is made to look.
So I really think that in defence of your own self-invented role as the scourge of Thaksin and all his fellow travellers, you owe it to yourself to unbend a little and actually read the document. I have always read your posts with interest, even if I rarely agree with you. But after this admission how can I take anything you write the least bit seriously?
To Lao Lao, how could pre-revolutionary spelling marginalize Laos? There are 30 million Lao people in the world, 80% of whom do not live in communities using the post 1975 standard orthography. Furthermore, the ‘old’ system is closer to Thai, the second language for most Lao, even those in the PDR. There is no old or new, right or wrong, there are simply many ways to be Lao.
That was not very excellent at all. Same old story again and doing the same old mistake as before by taking one side.
” they are more than capable of making a decision about which party they feel will do the most to improve their lives”
The above quotation goes for most people on this planet I think so why should the impoverished of Thailand be any different. I actually feel it is quite patronizing to write something like that.
It seems to me that the many people here are not much different from those who close their eyes and ears and just keep on throwing garbage at the “other” side.
We can keep on for ever to find faults and flaws but is that the right way? Will it lead to anything good? I think not and it’s about time the people of Thailand get a grip of the situation and start acting to bridge the gap. Something that requires that everyone takes responsibility, high and low.
wait a bit…there is nothing wrong with anyone -even Thaksin -contributing money to a social movement they believe in, I just said that evidence shows (from my interviews) that support came from inside the country, from the masses & red business interests, and not from outside the country -otherwise UDD would not be concerned now about (a) having no money in the coffers, and (b) those inside who did support the movement having their assets frozen…In fact PTV and red print media & promotional material generated most of the finances in past years -but these have been ruthlessly dismantled by the state. We (Somsak, et al) needs to look away from Thaksin and not be blinded by state propaganda about him as kingpin/mastermind etc. In this instance, he was clearly not.
It makes one wonder whether Malaysia would have been a very different country today had Tengku Razaleigh won the Umno elections over Dr Mahathir in 1987 given their completely different stance on the rule of law, democracy, equality etc. But then again, no one would have expected Mahathir to quietly fade away had he lost that elections. He would retreat temporarily like a wounded predator, only to regroup and plan his move to retake his lost territory. Tengku Razaleigh as Prime Minister would be very much under attack and busy fending off attempts to unseat him.
I haven’t watched this and it doesn’t interest me, but I know its all lies and untruths so I am willing to debate anyone on the content of the interview.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Letter from Sirikit to Napas Na Pombejra about CNN?
The whole thing is clearly a spoof, as Ms Napas would obviously not wear such a short skirt for an audience with HMQ.
Letter from Sirikit to Napas Na Pombejra about CNN?
It would appear to be a big mistake for a “family” which is “above politics” to become so directly involved in such specific issues so charged with political implications……after all, if they were to become part of or identified with only one portion of the political spectrum, it would leave the other portions of the political spectrum free to go their separate ways and the “family” would no longer be able to credibly pose as “representing” the “Nation”………………(unless, of course, by the “Nation”, we are simply referring to the newspaper and its coterie of Editors)…….
“The Bangkok Massacres: A call for accountability”
PAD Boy @60
“Portman
Weird how the likes of Andrew Marshall at Reuters – someone with a great record of being anti-Thaksin , who has never done so hiding behind anonymity on a blog and who also has a huge knowledge of Thailand as well as being Reuters Chief Correspondent – completely and utterly disagrees with your review of the report.”
Andrew Marshall has not written knowledgeably about the tax treatment of the SHIN sale. So how can you say he completely and utterly disagrees with my review? Do his job and his former writings mean that he is automatically right in anything he writes on the subject of Thaksin? Some wire service chief correspondents are good and some not. So what? How do you know he has never written against Thaksin behind the anonymity of a blog, unless you are he? If you disagree with anonymous blogs, why not post here under your real name?
ABC Interview with Jakrapob
I would think the debate should be about whether the major source of red shirt funding was from Thaksin related sources or not, regardless of whether the funds came from outside the country or were already onshore. It seems a Gilesesque fantasy to suggest that the movement might be solvent without Thaksin but probably worth a try.
Apart from that red herring of the internal/external funding did anyone figure out what Jakraphop was actually trying to say? He seemed more incoherent than usual. Perhaps having to rely on the goodwill of a capricious thug like Hun Sen to stay out of prison is jangling his nerves.
ABC Interview with Jakrapob
Dr Jim Taylor #6 – what is “discrete” ethnographic research?
Letter from Sirikit to Napas Na Pombejra about CNN?
P.S. I am no expert and with due respect to the English translator of the letter, cited by Khun double OK #1, I don’t think the translation captures certain wording of the letter quite well. In particular the Thai word р╕Хр╕нр╕Ър╣Вр╕Хр╣Й is, I believe, stronger than ‘defend’ in the translation. So is the word р╕вр╕╖р╕Щр╕Вр╕╢р╣Йр╕Щ, which, I think, is perhaps better rendered literally as “stand up” (to your duty as Thai). I probably should leave this to more qualifed users of both langauges than myself now.
Letter from Sirikit to Napas Na Pombejra about CNN?
Khun Andrew:
I cannot confirm that the letter is authentic (and I would be very happy to prominently publish any evidence, or official statement, that it is not).
There is absolutely no question of the letter’s authenticity. As Khun ‘Patiwat’ says #2, no one would dare to forge HMQ signature.
The photo of the letter and the other two photos were first published on the Thai E-News websites this morning, followed shortly by Prachatai. The accompanying report at the two websites were virtually the same (Prachatai copying from / paraphrasing Thai E-news’). The report was noticeable for its careful matter-of-fact style, with absolutely no hint of editorial commentary / interpretation. In otherword, it’s absolutly legal.
Then later in the morning, Thai E-News pulled off the report first, then Prachatai followed suit. By the time, in these days and ages of internet and facebook, the three photos have of course already circulated far and wide. Why did the two websites pull off the report and photos? I’ve been told Thai E-news had been asked to do so by certain quarters, citing certain reason; they in turn asked Prachatai. I won’t repeat here the reason alledgely given, suffice to say that, if it turns out to be true, the wider public will see some further development on the issue. (I personally have some doubt, however.)
I suggest that there’s no doubt either, that the three photos must have been first ‘leaked’ or shown to others, possibly small circles of friends and relatives by Khun Napas herself and/or her family. It’s understandable, not every day one gets letter of commendation / endorsement from HMQ. Khun Napas and her family must have been very proud. Whether the photos then came into the hand of internet media by intention or accidentally, I really don’t know.
When I first saw the photos and read the letter this morning, I was myself quite shaken. It’s natural reaction of loyal subject, I suppose.
Letter from Sirikit to Napas Na Pombejra about CNN?
FYI, Napas herself referred to the letter indirectly on Twitter, which would verify its authenticity:
“I dont wanna get caught up in a battle of sides again, poisoning a positive & simple “good job” gesture into a partisan agenda :(”
Source: http://twitter.com/archeiaskye/status/20112820536
Letter from Sirikit to Napas Na Pombejra about CNN?
patiwat #2 – thank you!!! Sheer brilliance.
Andrew Marshall on politics and education
JM #1: Why is it “patronizing to write something like that” ? Is it patronizing to say the opposite, that they are incapable of making a decision about which party should govern? This has been said, & there have been moves afoot to incorporate that view in the constitution. Many Thais & farang are saying this kind of thing every day.
Personally, I find your “it’s about time the people of Thailand get a grip of the situation and start acting to bridge the gap” very patronizing, since it seems to imply an obvious solution, already out in the open, which the Thai people cannot or will not see. But you, of course, can see it.
Andrew McG Marshall, a leftist Scot with an Oxbridge education from which he obviously got a bit more than PM Opposite (e.g. he can argue extremely well, within the rules of academic debate, by backing his arguments with facts that are actually true & verifiable) is, in my opinion, not telling the “same old story”. He’s attempting to tell the whole story, & that is not the same thing. Thank Dog we do have journos like him, because otherwise, in the current situation we might be tempted to believe the local media & Facebook Heroes such as that dickhead who is the spokesperson for CRES.
I do, however, thoroughly agree with you when you state, “I think not.”
Andrew Marshall on politics and education
Excellent article! I’m 100% agree with Andrew.
” … and that the assumption of superiority by the Bangkok middle classes is really a sign of their ignorance:
The urban middle class, in general, are uninformed and ignorant; their bias robs them of the opportunity to learn about their rural counterparts.
Many among the middle and upper classes in Bangkok have completely failed to grasp what is happening in their own country.
Yet among well-educated Thais in the middle and upper classes, who regard themselves as the guardians of democracy in Thailand, there appears to be little ability or willingness to think critically about the situation.
What is the point of being educated if you have forgotten how to think? ”
From my own experience, I have a chance to talk to many red-shirts urban poor in my office about democracy in Thailand. Surprisingly, they can lecture you about Thai political history since King Rama the 7th (the real version – not the one you learnt from school, though) and the Establishment propaganda. They admire Pridi and Dr.Puey. But when talking to my PAD elite friends, they just said E-sarn people are lazy and have been bought by Thaksin’s money. End of story! When I pursued for more details, they confessed that they don’t know much because they’re fully occupied with work and children.
Unless urban middle class learn to accept their ignorance, they are going nowhere. While rural poor are more and more well-informed, they are getting stronger and stronger day by day.
Letter from Sirikit to Napas Na Pombejra about CNN?
I’d have to think that forging the royal signature is a severe crime.
That being said, I’m not sure whether to praise the letter for its wisdom and brilliance or to damn the forgery for its vile idiocy.
It’s like seeing one of those optical illusions where you can see one thing or another.
Letter from Sirikit to Napas Na Pombejra about CNN?
http://img337.imageshack.us/f/noteofq.png
:: translated with Thai version..
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9375/napatandq.jpg
:: all in one image
PS. Thailand Only
“The Bangkok Massacres: A call for accountability”
Well, StanG (#93), maybe that is because Amsterdam’s White Paper really does put the case for Thaksin and the UDD cogently and clearly, so that there is not a great deal to add . It is true that it really does not say much that is new, but what it does do is gather all the threads together in a way that no one has previously done as effectively. I think the case he makes is compelling and the longer it is left without any proper ad rem response – from the government, the PAD, the Thai media, the like of Somtow or even you and other anti-Thaksin posters here – the more compelling it is made to look.
So I really think that in defence of your own self-invented role as the scourge of Thaksin and all his fellow travellers, you owe it to yourself to unbend a little and actually read the document. I have always read your posts with interest, even if I rarely agree with you. But after this admission how can I take anything you write the least bit seriously?
Lao studies conference 2010: the fascination of the marginal
To Lao Lao, how could pre-revolutionary spelling marginalize Laos? There are 30 million Lao people in the world, 80% of whom do not live in communities using the post 1975 standard orthography. Furthermore, the ‘old’ system is closer to Thai, the second language for most Lao, even those in the PDR. There is no old or new, right or wrong, there are simply many ways to be Lao.
Andrew Marshall on politics and education
That was not very excellent at all. Same old story again and doing the same old mistake as before by taking one side.
” they are more than capable of making a decision about which party they feel will do the most to improve their lives”
The above quotation goes for most people on this planet I think so why should the impoverished of Thailand be any different. I actually feel it is quite patronizing to write something like that.
It seems to me that the many people here are not much different from those who close their eyes and ears and just keep on throwing garbage at the “other” side.
We can keep on for ever to find faults and flaws but is that the right way? Will it lead to anything good? I think not and it’s about time the people of Thailand get a grip of the situation and start acting to bridge the gap. Something that requires that everyone takes responsibility, high and low.
My point? Articles like this isn’t helping.
JM
ABC Interview with Jakrapob
wait a bit…there is nothing wrong with anyone -even Thaksin -contributing money to a social movement they believe in, I just said that evidence shows (from my interviews) that support came from inside the country, from the masses & red business interests, and not from outside the country -otherwise UDD would not be concerned now about (a) having no money in the coffers, and (b) those inside who did support the movement having their assets frozen…In fact PTV and red print media & promotional material generated most of the finances in past years -but these have been ruthlessly dismantled by the state. We (Somsak, et al) needs to look away from Thaksin and not be blinded by state propaganda about him as kingpin/mastermind etc. In this instance, he was clearly not.
“The Bangkok Massacres: A call for accountability”
I’ve written several comments why this white paper is not worth reading.
One reason for my position is that in over 90 comments here no one mentioned anything interesting from that paper either.
We were once ‘Malaysians’
It makes one wonder whether Malaysia would have been a very different country today had Tengku Razaleigh won the Umno elections over Dr Mahathir in 1987 given their completely different stance on the rule of law, democracy, equality etc. But then again, no one would have expected Mahathir to quietly fade away had he lost that elections. He would retreat temporarily like a wounded predator, only to regroup and plan his move to retake his lost territory. Tengku Razaleigh as Prime Minister would be very much under attack and busy fending off attempts to unseat him.
ABC Interview with Jakrapob
I haven’t watched this and it doesn’t interest me, but I know its all lies and untruths so I am willing to debate anyone on the content of the interview.