I just want to reaffirm your statement that’s all.
Speaking of which, why no one seems to be interesting about reforming the military? there’s some law that has been using since 1800s and some regulations in the Army are seriously out of date.
Interesting and hopeful listening to the Thai students at ANU.
Also interesting that Andrew put his cards on the table for all to see. Maybe a good time now Andrew for you to explain why every comment I made on the Giles Ungpakorn book launch post was censored. Are there people beyond criticism on New Mandala? No use complaining about a similar situation for some people in Thailand if you do it on New Mandala.
[Les, not every comment. The one comment of substance that you did make was approved. Do you think that New Mandala should have even more Les Abbey? AW]
responding to Les and Portman I can only say how people around the country see him now; I cannot answer about his past deeds so it is best to ask the “impoversished Isaan peasants” that very question…However, my feeling is that whatever his involvement in the past (as indeed all military personnel during the anti-communist period, including “Mr Pure” Chamlong) he turned around realising his mistakes and in the last five years had the courage to say openly what was wrong in the military itself and its unquestioning “dumb” line of command. For this he was rewarded with being kicked out. We need to give people space to make changes for the better and not hold them ransom to the past as with Top Chef Samak (unless of course they don’t change, or change in a negative direction against the interests of the masses – like Chamlong). As I understand Saedaeng learned a lot in the past few years by listening to folk around the country, giving them a refuge during the chaos, and travelling to the countryside frequently or walking among the urban poor. As people told me everywhere I went: he aligned himself against the fallangist state and made every effort even at the risk of his own life to protect people during the demonstrations.
According to Manager Online via Prachatai (http://www.prachatai3.info/journal/2010/07/30190) the New Politics party meeting nominated six persons but all (including Suriyasai) except Somsak withdrew. The party then convened a secret meeting and it turns out that Somsak was endorsed overwhelmingly. I stil have no idea why others withdrew except him and why he was appointed as the party leader despite his lack of qualifications a political leader should possess to succeed.
Most elected leaders won’t take that long-term approach instantly or at least not admit it. But when re-elected they tend to “adjust” their timeframe. So we know little about Thaksins plans for that.
For example: The”Chancellor of German Unity” who was finally thrown out by the people in 1998 after 16 years at the helm with mostly very marginal majorities, when he went for another “last” stand.
He might turn out to be a dark horse success, but not in my lifetime. A firebrand speaker and good guy to be on stage to whip up the masses, he does not have the charisma a political party leader normally needs. But what’s normal these days?
BTW, he was actually named some time back as the man in his temporary selection as leader.
Colin #6
This 6 days 63 million ideas program is a joke!! It is a waste of money and will not achieve anything except PR for the government. Someone called the PM asking him why he did not dissolve the parliament. Many called and complained about how difficult the economy has been these days. Too much public money is being spent on PR and a short term money handout and not real long term “development” programs. More than 1,000 million baht was spent in oppressing the red shirt movement and no one is actually listening to their concerns. No mentions of course about 90 lives lost during the crack down.
I like Andrew’s conclusion and Predee’s remarks on tolerance.
Stop witch-hunting and you will get a reconciliation!!
Thank you for this video. I enjoyed it. I have some comments on this episode 5.
1. The people in agricultural sector do not live solely on agricultural income. Most of them have around a third of their income from non-agricultural sources e.g. handicrafts, services, petty trade, non-wage employment. Many for example would find some income from dry season occupations in cities, e.g selling lotteries, unskilled construction work, selling food in Bangkok or Chiang Mai. So, the gap between agricultural and non-agricultural sector is not equivalent to the gap of the rural vs. urban people.
2. While I like Prof. Peter Warr’s analysis in general, I think his analysis is “too economic”. He puts things in economic terms including Thaksin and his political involvement. Thaksin, according to Prof. Peter Warr, entered politics because of profit motives and implying the process “ripping” off the poor by winning their votes while pursuing his profit motives. I think this is too simplistic analysis. Surely, an economist or businessman can think like for a business enterprise but to judge Thaksin in that light is denying any political ideology that he and his party has, or has had. Without political ideology or public service minded, I don’t think Thaksin is coming this far. His supporters are not naive or easily fooled if he is purely profiteering. Many of the corruption charges against him were also very politically motivated. Many academic analyses on him are mostly speculative and value loaded. While I don’t want to defend him but I think one should be fair to him. I feel that democracy movement in Thailand cannot be without him, despite some weaknesses he has. His major weakness, compared to other great leaders, is his wealth. With his political influence, he is a great threat to the current establishment. All efforts are therefore out there to bring him and his supporters down. The red shirt movement is not all for Thaksin but for democracy but “they” don’t differentiate it.
3. To Andrew, I enjoy your economic analysis and I think it enriched village data work but care must be exercised when interpreting these data.
all democratic leaders plan to be reelected for as long as they can
its up to the people whether they are allowed to or not
most democracies assume there will be several people and groups (parties) competing for the public vote
its only in countries like Thailand where the military is available and willing to use force that people get lazy and think its easier to just force their way into power instead of competing fairly for people votes
Thailand needs to grow up, force its military back into their box and behave like a civilised country
Seh Daeng’s past as a ruthless hunter and killer of impoverished Isaan peasants alleged to be communists or communist sympathisers seems to have been conveniently glossed over in this mawkish tribute worthy of a Murdoch tabloid. I look forward to seeing the evidence of the government order to murder him and the alleged countenance from on high.
No matter what I answer to this question, the result will be a barrage of this and that. So why should I answer? Where will it get the beautiful country of Thailand?
Maybe you should think hard why that’s the case with you?
Huh, so you are saying that decentralizing the police department will somehow get rid of the corruption in the force?
No, I don’t think I said that. Did I say that Tarrin?
I can see back in comment 12 I said “How to reform the Thai police? Well the obvious regarding decent pay and decentralization.”
So there I was talking about reforming the Thai Police Force. Regarding corruption I said, also in comment 12, “Then something like an internal affairs division with real power to act on public complaints.”
Just a small idea, maybe a beginning. How do we handle corruption anyway? The Western way seems to be by taking small steps and punishing those found to be guilty with job losses, fines or imprisonment. The Chinese answer seems to be more along lines of a pistol to the back of the head.
So are we going to turn him into a legendary hero of pro-democracy now? How do we handle his past actions and written words then? Do we say that like Chamlong he had a Road to Damascus moment although far more recent, or were the trips to see Thaksin the real cause? How do we handle his last major statement that along with Arisman and under Thaksin’s orders he would be replacing the red shirt leadership if they compromised with the government’s road map? At this point we probably see the beginning of the military answer to the rally rather than a negotiated one. Also probably why some of the leaders left too.
Jim Taylor, I too am interested in who gave the order and carried out the assassination of Khattiya Sawasdipol. It reopens the wounds of previous governments’ extra-judicial killings killings again. So when you talk about informants, are these people with real knowledge or just rumour mongers. If they are the former why shouldn’t they go public with what they know now?
(1) the House passed more than 20 resolutions that day, including support for plastic bag recycling programs and National Estuaries Day;
(2) the Thailand resolution was proposed on the 4th of May (i.e., before the crackdown); it took 2 months to reach a vote;
(3) As noted by Steven, the House did not approve the roadmap, but its goals, highlighting “upholding the monarchy, instituting political reform, and eradicating injustice.” It did not approve the point about reforming media, for example.
(4) It called for resolving problems “through democratic means,” not through indefinite detentions, censorship, and witchhunts.
My own take on the issue of monoarchy is that the people should have the rigth to select their Head of State rather than rely on Primogeniture to make that selection from a rather small genetic pool.
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New politics, new leader
Chilling “logo” for the NPP…
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6b/New_politcs_party_thailand.jpg”
They want people to understand exactly where they are coming from!
New Thai street signs
Fantastic! Is that a publication in Bangkok? Can anyone confirm?
Thai institutions: Police
LesAbbey – 30
I just want to reaffirm your statement that’s all.
Speaking of which, why no one seems to be interesting about reforming the military? there’s some law that has been using since 1800s and some regulations in the Army are seriously out of date.
เซ็กส์-ความรัก-และการซื
I read your piece from Matichon online and liked it. You are getting famous from this piece, Andrew. People like sexy things.
Thailand in Crisis: Episode 6
Interesting and hopeful listening to the Thai students at ANU.
Also interesting that Andrew put his cards on the table for all to see. Maybe a good time now Andrew for you to explain why every comment I made on the Giles Ungpakorn book launch post was censored. Are there people beyond criticism on New Mandala? No use complaining about a similar situation for some people in Thailand if you do it on New Mandala.
[Les, not every comment. The one comment of substance that you did make was approved. Do you think that New Mandala should have even more Les Abbey? AW]
Scenes from Saedaeng’s funeral
responding to Les and Portman I can only say how people around the country see him now; I cannot answer about his past deeds so it is best to ask the “impoversished Isaan peasants” that very question…However, my feeling is that whatever his involvement in the past (as indeed all military personnel during the anti-communist period, including “Mr Pure” Chamlong) he turned around realising his mistakes and in the last five years had the courage to say openly what was wrong in the military itself and its unquestioning “dumb” line of command. For this he was rewarded with being kicked out. We need to give people space to make changes for the better and not hold them ransom to the past as with Top Chef Samak (unless of course they don’t change, or change in a negative direction against the interests of the masses – like Chamlong). As I understand Saedaeng learned a lot in the past few years by listening to folk around the country, giving them a refuge during the chaos, and travelling to the countryside frequently or walking among the urban poor. As people told me everywhere I went: he aligned himself against the fallangist state and made every effort even at the risk of his own life to protect people during the demonstrations.
New politics, new leader
According to Manager Online via Prachatai (http://www.prachatai3.info/journal/2010/07/30190) the New Politics party meeting nominated six persons but all (including Suriyasai) except Somsak withdrew. The party then convened a secret meeting and it turns out that Somsak was endorsed overwhelmingly. I stil have no idea why others withdrew except him and why he was appointed as the party leader despite his lack of qualifications a political leader should possess to succeed.
Jakrapob on the state within the state
Most elected leaders won’t take that long-term approach instantly or at least not admit it. But when re-elected they tend to “adjust” their timeframe. So we know little about Thaksins plans for that.
For example: The”Chancellor of German Unity” who was finally thrown out by the people in 1998 after 16 years at the helm with mostly very marginal majorities, when he went for another “last” stand.
New politics, new leader
He might turn out to be a dark horse success, but not in my lifetime. A firebrand speaker and good guy to be on stage to whip up the masses, he does not have the charisma a political party leader normally needs. But what’s normal these days?
BTW, he was actually named some time back as the man in his temporary selection as leader.
Thailand in Crisis: Episode 6
Colin #6
This 6 days 63 million ideas program is a joke!! It is a waste of money and will not achieve anything except PR for the government. Someone called the PM asking him why he did not dissolve the parliament. Many called and complained about how difficult the economy has been these days. Too much public money is being spent on PR and a short term money handout and not real long term “development” programs. More than 1,000 million baht was spent in oppressing the red shirt movement and no one is actually listening to their concerns. No mentions of course about 90 lives lost during the crack down.
I like Andrew’s conclusion and Predee’s remarks on tolerance.
Stop witch-hunting and you will get a reconciliation!!
Thailand in Crisis – Episode 5
Thank you for this video. I enjoyed it. I have some comments on this episode 5.
1. The people in agricultural sector do not live solely on agricultural income. Most of them have around a third of their income from non-agricultural sources e.g. handicrafts, services, petty trade, non-wage employment. Many for example would find some income from dry season occupations in cities, e.g selling lotteries, unskilled construction work, selling food in Bangkok or Chiang Mai. So, the gap between agricultural and non-agricultural sector is not equivalent to the gap of the rural vs. urban people.
2. While I like Prof. Peter Warr’s analysis in general, I think his analysis is “too economic”. He puts things in economic terms including Thaksin and his political involvement. Thaksin, according to Prof. Peter Warr, entered politics because of profit motives and implying the process “ripping” off the poor by winning their votes while pursuing his profit motives. I think this is too simplistic analysis. Surely, an economist or businessman can think like for a business enterprise but to judge Thaksin in that light is denying any political ideology that he and his party has, or has had. Without political ideology or public service minded, I don’t think Thaksin is coming this far. His supporters are not naive or easily fooled if he is purely profiteering. Many of the corruption charges against him were also very politically motivated. Many academic analyses on him are mostly speculative and value loaded. While I don’t want to defend him but I think one should be fair to him. I feel that democracy movement in Thailand cannot be without him, despite some weaknesses he has. His major weakness, compared to other great leaders, is his wealth. With his political influence, he is a great threat to the current establishment. All efforts are therefore out there to bring him and his supporters down. The red shirt movement is not all for Thaksin but for democracy but “they” don’t differentiate it.
3. To Andrew, I enjoy your economic analysis and I think it enriched village data work but care must be exercised when interpreting these data.
Jakrapob on the state within the state
Tukkae #58
all democratic leaders plan to be reelected for as long as they can
its up to the people whether they are allowed to or not
most democracies assume there will be several people and groups (parties) competing for the public vote
its only in countries like Thailand where the military is available and willing to use force that people get lazy and think its easier to just force their way into power instead of competing fairly for people votes
Thailand needs to grow up, force its military back into their box and behave like a civilised country
Scenes from Saedaeng’s funeral
Seh Daeng’s past as a ruthless hunter and killer of impoverished Isaan peasants alleged to be communists or communist sympathisers seems to have been conveniently glossed over in this mawkish tribute worthy of a Murdoch tabloid. I look forward to seeing the evidence of the government order to murder him and the alleged countenance from on high.
Thailand in Crisis: Episode 6
Colin #8
Lame. Just as I expected: you are merely a talker, making unsubstantiated claims, and when asked backs off with a lame excuse…
Thailand in Crisis: Episode 6
Colin – 8
No matter what I answer to this question, the result will be a barrage of this and that. So why should I answer? Where will it get the beautiful country of Thailand?
Maybe you should think hard why that’s the case with you?
Thai institutions: Police
Tarrin – 29
Huh, so you are saying that decentralizing the police department will somehow get rid of the corruption in the force?
No, I don’t think I said that. Did I say that Tarrin?
I can see back in comment 12 I said “How to reform the Thai police? Well the obvious regarding decent pay and decentralization.”
So there I was talking about reforming the Thai Police Force. Regarding corruption I said, also in comment 12, “Then something like an internal affairs division with real power to act on public complaints.”
Just a small idea, maybe a beginning. How do we handle corruption anyway? The Western way seems to be by taking small steps and punishing those found to be guilty with job losses, fines or imprisonment. The Chinese answer seems to be more along lines of a pistol to the back of the head.
Scenes from Saedaeng’s funeral
So are we going to turn him into a legendary hero of pro-democracy now? How do we handle his past actions and written words then? Do we say that like Chamlong he had a Road to Damascus moment although far more recent, or were the trips to see Thaksin the real cause? How do we handle his last major statement that along with Arisman and under Thaksin’s orders he would be replacing the red shirt leadership if they compromised with the government’s road map? At this point we probably see the beginning of the military answer to the rally rather than a negotiated one. Also probably why some of the leaders left too.
Jim Taylor, I too am interested in who gave the order and carried out the assassination of Khattiya Sawasdipol. It reopens the wounds of previous governments’ extra-judicial killings killings again. So when you talk about informants, are these people with real knowledge or just rumour mongers. If they are the former why shouldn’t they go public with what they know now?
“Opposing the atrocious Thailand Reform Plan”
To put the U.S. House vote in perspective:
(1) the House passed more than 20 resolutions that day, including support for plastic bag recycling programs and National Estuaries Day;
(2) the Thailand resolution was proposed on the 4th of May (i.e., before the crackdown); it took 2 months to reach a vote;
(3) As noted by Steven, the House did not approve the roadmap, but its goals, highlighting “upholding the monarchy, instituting political reform, and eradicating injustice.” It did not approve the point about reforming media, for example.
(4) It called for resolving problems “through democratic means,” not through indefinite detentions, censorship, and witchhunts.
Scenes from Saedaeng’s funeral
As the palace honour guards arrived incredibly the crowd… jeered.
That’s a detail I hadn’t seen anywhere else.
Jakrapob on the state within the state
My own take on the issue of monoarchy is that the people should have the rigth to select their Head of State rather than rely on Primogeniture to make that selection from a rather small genetic pool.