The resolution continued by discussing the need for dialogue with all parties involved, the notion that the deaths that occured in the April and May actions be fully investigated by and Indepedent group, and finally stressing that the government moved to free and fair elections.
So although Abhist and Sethep want to appaud their misconceptions of what the U S House did, they may soon find themselves clapping with just one hand.
Great conversation, thanks! Would be interesting to expand the series and do conversations about other SEA countries–and on a previous comment about the history student not entering because politics because he doesn’t have enough money-yes this immediately stands out–no matter reconciliation, constitutional reform, etc etc., at the core is the perversion of the democratic system by monied interests, be they red shirt, yellow shirt, blue shirt, or whatever. Suppose in western democracies its large companies that play this game while in places like Thailand it is a mix of companies, individuals and families. A new election finance strategy must happen if the country is to make significant and meaningful democratic progress. There really needs to be a debate on how to reform this situation through funding decentralization (technology aided), oversight by media and public, building new culture against money politics, etc. It is a hell of a battle and can’t be solved overnight, but it must be addressed
Indeed, have Thailand’s politicians ever reconciled themselves to the notion that ‘democracy’ is something beyond just the usual business as usual? That’s the only form of reconciliation I’m currently interested in. But even in the best-case scenario, all we are likely to end up with is a bunch of habitual liars trying to sucker-punch each other for a sake of a few dollars more. Those of any real value are either long dead (courtesy of the state within a state) or have taken themselves off to other shores where there are people prepared to value their skills.
#55 I have read those 6 paragraphs several times over, and they don’t impress me very much, since I remember being distinctly underwhelmed by the tawdry reality of those times. The following is about the only paragraph of the 6 that seemed worthy of any attention.
“My observation is that he tried to work with the existing forces to achieve his policies and overtime attempted to exert his authority to restructure them.”
You seem to be doing a Jakkrapob on us – giving a very mediocre man qualities that didn’t seem particularly obvious in practice. His handling of the South was impetuously childish. In this situation in which the utmost diplomacy was called for, your portrayal of him working with existing forces was nowhere apparent. Indeed, it looks like what he did was little more than a very sleasy attempt to muscle his police allies in on some very dodgy existing cross-border business (controlled by some truly obnoxious military mafias). This situation called for tact. All politics call for tact, even when one is dealing with fla-out tealeaves. All we got was the impatience of a man who clearly did not have his mind fully engaged on the very difficult task of trying to improve one of Thailand’s most intractable problems.
No, I’m not going to bother talking about the 2,500 dead either. It’s already been done to death, but a lot of our slef-appointed local farang political pundits still continue to see nothing wrong with it. Politics has obviously been so bad here for so long that even they no longer seem capable of spotting a fake when they see one.
You are also trying to do a Jakkrapob-style PR spin job on me by trying to tarnish me with the Sondhi brush. I’ve made my view on that nerd obvious on numerous occasions, but you seem to prefer to airbrush out any signs that there are more than two sides to this debate. And unlike Uncle Sondhi, I am not hamstrung by the sort of soppy sentimental monarchism that most Thai politicians use to excuse their surfeit of negative energies. I was already convinced that Thaksin was a phoney at a time back in the mid-90s when fellow-fascists Sondhi and Chumlong still thought he was the best thing since sliced bread. Obviously, they were both already far too full of the pseudo-religious BS in which Palang Dharma and its various highly-suspect offshoots excelled.
If you know so much why do you ask me? See, this is the problem…you ask me a question with irony and sarcasm? You have your green thumbs, I have my red thumbs.
No matter what I answer to this question, the result will be a barrage of this and that. So why should I answer? Where will it get the beautiful country of Thailand?
What I will say though, if you care about Thailand, for a start call “6 days 63 million ideas” program.
Abhisit and his government are in power because of the Palace/Privy Council and the Military working to preserve their traditional power.
In March to May the redshirts rallied demanding elections. Abhisit offered elections in November, the redshirts did not trust his promise so demanded earlier election or submittal to legal charges relating to killing by the military as a sign of good faith. Abhisit’s deputy tried a trick so reds rejected the offer.
Abhisit cutoff two further negotiation attempts by Sukhumhand and the Senators, the military brought in snipers and killed 80+ foreign and local journalists, medicos, protesters some armed at most with slingshots.
In all this only 2 soldiers were killed, one “rogue” general, actively assisting the redshirts, was shot from above while standing being interviewed by Thomas Fuller of the New York Times, the other apparently by “friendly” sniper fire. A further 800+ protesters and a few soldiers were injured. The redshirts surrendered and as yet unidentified people burned apparently well insured buildings in Bangkok.
Thaksins government was elected in 2001, re-elected in 2005 and after being severely challenged by yellow shirts “protecting the monarchy” again in 2006. Being accused of all sorts of things including “interfering in the military reshuffle”, surely the right of a democratically elected government with mandate of the people, the military deposed Thaksin while he was overseas addressing the UN.
In 2007, the military created yet another Constitution, imposed martial law and sent soldiers around the country but Thaksins allies still narrowly won the election.
Having failed with direct force the elites/military funded further major (yellow) protests and enlisted the aid of the judiciary to dissolve the Thaksin supporters party and Abhisit became PM.
Now Abhisit is intent on destroying Thaksin and his redshirt followers with extreme censorship, gaol and vigilante actions around the country including killings.
Abhisit’s “Reconciliation Roadmap” is his attempt to convince everyone to reconcile to the traditional elites/military controlled government and to delay elections until all the country is “reconciled”.
Now all communications by or sympathetic to the red movement and Thaksin is censored and suppressed while the government works to brainwash its people and the international community.
I would claim its the wealthiest 10% (or 5%?) unwillingness to accept the electoral cycles that is the symptom and real issue for the Red Shirts… amazingly enough Thaksin was the first PM to actually run full term… his performance threatened the pattern of elections and coups
Now when Abhisit claims things are back to normal(cy) he means back to the old pattern of election results being overidden by the amart/military and the military out in the regions trying to “educate” the recalcitrant locals to accept dictatorship by the elite
Replace this pattern by regular elections with all sides accepting and working their best to win elections with no military interference, this is what Thailand needs!
Reconciliation is just hypocrisy, totally agree. However, I also agree with Khun Preedee that something must be fix before before the election is any meaningful.
Chris Beale: If HMK really wanted to show himself clearly against the LM law, he would pardon people the moment they are arrested and charged. Not let them languish in prison for months.
Don’t respond that he has to wait until a conviction and a pardon request. He has unconditional power to pardon. Nothing prevents a pardon being granted even before a charge has been made.
Quite apart from anything else the Kathmandu Gallery is run by Manit Sriwanichpoom who is a leading activist on the contemporary Thai art scene. He was prominent in protesting the government’s decision to allocate the bulk of film funds to one patriotic specimen (“Naruesan”).
His book of photos (“Protest”) documents a year of struggle by all elements of Thai society trying to get a hearing outside Government House and predates both Yellow and Red shirt protests. His Pink Man series is well known but not well known enough, in my opinion. Check him out at http://chngyaohong.com/blog/contemporary/manit-sriwanichpoom/
Chris Beale: Does anyone get released without having to grovel?
I’ll believe your portrayal when people like Giles, Jakrapob & Darunee don’t even get charged (because you know all it would take is a word from above by the great one for all this nonsense to stop).
“With all of the ‘love’ that the Royal Family claims, why is the Thai monarchy behaving in a such a paranoid fashion in the 21st century?
Why does the Palace refuse to allow open discussion of how the Thai see the role of their beloved Monarch? Could it be that the Palace itself is so sunk in scandal that it is afraid to open the doors?
The fear of communism that pushed the Thai Royal Family into becoming strong allies with corrupt generals is understandable. Why Thailand fell into the USA’s anti-communist war is well known.
Why the Royal Family befriended tyrants like Marshal Thanom, and why they helped him and others avoid criminal charges and provided them with soft beds and royal cremations is also understandable.
Why the Royal Family did not support Pridi Phanomyong, the father of Thai democracy, why in 1947 the Royal Family supported the general that kicked him out, why the Royal Family did not pardon Pridi, and why the Royal Family did not allow him to return home as an old man, if not for a royal cremation, then just to console his family – is not understandable.
Had Pridi’s 1933 Economic Plan been adopted, and not been rejected as ‘communist’, we would not be facing, 78 years later, the ugly phenomenon of a medieval battle between a suppressed, frustrated populace and an overwrought, splendiferous, monarchical hierarchy.
Pridi’s Economic Plan was aimed at achieving a state of net happiness through development of cooperative activities, social welfare, state support for domestic, social economies, barter trade, equal education for all with maximum engagement of the rural work force, support for state enterprise, as well as taxation of the rich and the introduction of a people’s wage etc.
Had Pridi’s plan been adopted, Thailand could have been, by now, a real example of sustainable development in Southeast Asia. We can say with some certainty that Thailand’s current, state-sponsored, multi-billion dollar sex trade would have been replaced by now, after 78 years, by a functional, egalitarian, state-sponsored, multi-billion dollar health-care system, that Thailand would not be reeling around, as now, in the grip of a completely corrupt judiciary, and that the Thai population would be, by now, at least fully concentrated on sustainable development.
Quite recently the http://www.weareallhuman.net chat board reviewed two letters written by the King, one to Marshal Pibun and royalists after they had ousted Pridi, and the other to Marshal Thanom after he had staged the 1971 military coup. The 1947 coup destroyed the most democratic constitution Thailand has ever seen. It returned huge powers to the monarchy, and all Crown properties. Since 1947 Thailand has remained in the clutches of the Royal Thai Army. Why?
In Spain transition to democracy during the late 70s (after the decades of dictatorship under General Franco that began in 1939 and ended with his death in 1975) was generating considerable animosity within the Spanish armed forces. This culminated in an attempted military coup on 23 February 1981. The coup was thwarted by an unambiguous television broadcast by King Juan Carlos, in the uniform of the Supreme Commander of the Spanish armed forces. He called on the public to support their legitimately elected Government. The leader of the coup was sentenced to 30 years in jail, and the King’s action led to a strengthening of Spanish democracy and to renewed respect for the monarchy.
In contrast, since 1947 the King of Thailand has personally approved 7 successful military coups. At any time during the last 60 years the Royal Household of Thailand could have stood-up for the people’s struggle for democracy and ended Thailand’s endless string of military coups and violent crackdowns.
The violent crackdown by the Royal Thai Army on the people in April 2010 has pushed Thailand further down the slippery road to the ignoble status of ‘failed state’.
It is long past time for the Thai to engage in wide-open public debate on the role of Thai royals, their Palace institutions and the huge military force they command, and on the problems that emerge from their absolute powers and extremely expensive absolute privileges that absolutely do not promote the ‘sufficiency economy’ promoted by the King himself.
By opening real space for public criticism, the Royal Family can still rescue itself and become a real player in the work of preventing further domestic violence and bringing internal justice to Thailand – without the use of the military or paramilitary gangs, who can have no role in the civilian life of a country like Thailand in the 21st century.”
“….. the US house of representatives who have backed the Abhisit plan.”
Not exactly. Read the actual text of the resolution*:
“(4) supports the goals of the 5-point roadmap of the Government of Thailand for national reconciliation…..”
Rather like supporting “mom and apple pie”? Granted that there was no need for any resolution to be passed – so even the anodyne wording of this one is already being touted** by Abhisit as endorsement of what he’s actually doing (and not doing) rather than simply the principles expressed in the plan.
A member of the social networking website Facebook has spent the past two months in jail, accused of breaking lese majeste law in messages posted at his Facebook page.
Wipas Raksakulthai, a 37-year-old businessman based in Rayong, is being detained at the Bangkok Remand Prison. The court denied him bail.
Mr Wipas is a supporter of the red shirt United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) and had left political comments on Facebook.
Since his arrest, Facebook users have criticised him, sharing his personal information and contacts they acquired from his profile pages.
They encourage each other to report the findings to the police.
Now it’ll be no bail, “secret trial”, conviction, and 10 to 20 years in prison. The cyber-scouts in action. Turned in by an “elitettte” no doubt. One with a picture of Col. Sansern on her wall.
Lese Majeste is still A-OK with Amnesty Internetional, I understand. Some of their best friends are cyber-scouts. And “elitettes”.
Thailand is gone in this incarnation. Let’s hope the body is speedily burned and the next life begun soon.
I know some people involved with the reconciliation efforts and they are non-partisan. Just want to get involved for the love of their country.
To dismiss the effort as a PR stunt I think is a bit much and I know those involved would be hurt from this thinking.
Thailand needs this, no matter how flawed it may be, it is the start to something which is better than nothing and the cycle of the last 4-5 years.
Take a step back, analyze this situation…everyone should be getting involved to make sure its done right, this is a chance for those who want to voice their concerns.
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“Opposing the atrocious Thailand Reform Plan”
Adding to what Steve said,
The resolution continued by discussing the need for dialogue with all parties involved, the notion that the deaths that occured in the April and May actions be fully investigated by and Indepedent group, and finally stressing that the government moved to free and fair elections.
So although Abhist and Sethep want to appaud their misconceptions of what the U S House did, they may soon find themselves clapping with just one hand.
Thailand in Crisis: Episode 6
Great conversation, thanks! Would be interesting to expand the series and do conversations about other SEA countries–and on a previous comment about the history student not entering because politics because he doesn’t have enough money-yes this immediately stands out–no matter reconciliation, constitutional reform, etc etc., at the core is the perversion of the democratic system by monied interests, be they red shirt, yellow shirt, blue shirt, or whatever. Suppose in western democracies its large companies that play this game while in places like Thailand it is a mix of companies, individuals and families. A new election finance strategy must happen if the country is to make significant and meaningful democratic progress. There really needs to be a debate on how to reform this situation through funding decentralization (technology aided), oversight by media and public, building new culture against money politics, etc. It is a hell of a battle and can’t be solved overnight, but it must be addressed
Thailand in Crisis: Episode 6
Indeed, have Thailand’s politicians ever reconciled themselves to the notion that ‘democracy’ is something beyond just the usual business as usual? That’s the only form of reconciliation I’m currently interested in. But even in the best-case scenario, all we are likely to end up with is a bunch of habitual liars trying to sucker-punch each other for a sake of a few dollars more. Those of any real value are either long dead (courtesy of the state within a state) or have taken themselves off to other shores where there are people prepared to value their skills.
Jakrapob on the state within the state
#55 I have read those 6 paragraphs several times over, and they don’t impress me very much, since I remember being distinctly underwhelmed by the tawdry reality of those times. The following is about the only paragraph of the 6 that seemed worthy of any attention.
“My observation is that he tried to work with the existing forces to achieve his policies and overtime attempted to exert his authority to restructure them.”
You seem to be doing a Jakkrapob on us – giving a very mediocre man qualities that didn’t seem particularly obvious in practice. His handling of the South was impetuously childish. In this situation in which the utmost diplomacy was called for, your portrayal of him working with existing forces was nowhere apparent. Indeed, it looks like what he did was little more than a very sleasy attempt to muscle his police allies in on some very dodgy existing cross-border business (controlled by some truly obnoxious military mafias). This situation called for tact. All politics call for tact, even when one is dealing with fla-out tealeaves. All we got was the impatience of a man who clearly did not have his mind fully engaged on the very difficult task of trying to improve one of Thailand’s most intractable problems.
No, I’m not going to bother talking about the 2,500 dead either. It’s already been done to death, but a lot of our slef-appointed local farang political pundits still continue to see nothing wrong with it. Politics has obviously been so bad here for so long that even they no longer seem capable of spotting a fake when they see one.
You are also trying to do a Jakkrapob-style PR spin job on me by trying to tarnish me with the Sondhi brush. I’ve made my view on that nerd obvious on numerous occasions, but you seem to prefer to airbrush out any signs that there are more than two sides to this debate. And unlike Uncle Sondhi, I am not hamstrung by the sort of soppy sentimental monarchism that most Thai politicians use to excuse their surfeit of negative energies. I was already convinced that Thaksin was a phoney at a time back in the mid-90s when fellow-fascists Sondhi and Chumlong still thought he was the best thing since sliced bread. Obviously, they were both already far too full of the pseudo-religious BS in which Palang Dharma and its various highly-suspect offshoots excelled.
Thailand in Crisis: Episode 6
Srithanonchai,
If you know so much why do you ask me? See, this is the problem…you ask me a question with irony and sarcasm? You have your green thumbs, I have my red thumbs.
No matter what I answer to this question, the result will be a barrage of this and that. So why should I answer? Where will it get the beautiful country of Thailand?
What I will say though, if you care about Thailand, for a start call “6 days 63 million ideas” program.
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Just a recap after lots of detail to and fro:
Abhisit and his government are in power because of the Palace/Privy Council and the Military working to preserve their traditional power.
In March to May the redshirts rallied demanding elections. Abhisit offered elections in November, the redshirts did not trust his promise so demanded earlier election or submittal to legal charges relating to killing by the military as a sign of good faith. Abhisit’s deputy tried a trick so reds rejected the offer.
Abhisit cutoff two further negotiation attempts by Sukhumhand and the Senators, the military brought in snipers and killed 80+ foreign and local journalists, medicos, protesters some armed at most with slingshots.
In all this only 2 soldiers were killed, one “rogue” general, actively assisting the redshirts, was shot from above while standing being interviewed by Thomas Fuller of the New York Times, the other apparently by “friendly” sniper fire. A further 800+ protesters and a few soldiers were injured. The redshirts surrendered and as yet unidentified people burned apparently well insured buildings in Bangkok.
Thaksins government was elected in 2001, re-elected in 2005 and after being severely challenged by yellow shirts “protecting the monarchy” again in 2006. Being accused of all sorts of things including “interfering in the military reshuffle”, surely the right of a democratically elected government with mandate of the people, the military deposed Thaksin while he was overseas addressing the UN.
In 2007, the military created yet another Constitution, imposed martial law and sent soldiers around the country but Thaksins allies still narrowly won the election.
Having failed with direct force the elites/military funded further major (yellow) protests and enlisted the aid of the judiciary to dissolve the Thaksin supporters party and Abhisit became PM.
Now Abhisit is intent on destroying Thaksin and his redshirt followers with extreme censorship, gaol and vigilante actions around the country including killings.
Abhisit’s “Reconciliation Roadmap” is his attempt to convince everyone to reconcile to the traditional elites/military controlled government and to delay elections until all the country is “reconciled”.
Now all communications by or sympathetic to the red movement and Thaksin is censored and suppressed while the government works to brainwash its people and the international community.
I would claim its the wealthiest 10% (or 5%?) unwillingness to accept the electoral cycles that is the symptom and real issue for the Red Shirts… amazingly enough Thaksin was the first PM to actually run full term… his performance threatened the pattern of elections and coups
Now when Abhisit claims things are back to normal(cy) he means back to the old pattern of election results being overidden by the amart/military and the military out in the regions trying to “educate” the recalcitrant locals to accept dictatorship by the elite
Replace this pattern by regular elections with all sides accepting and working their best to win elections with no military interference, this is what Thailand needs!
Thailand in Crisis: Episode 6
Reconciliation is just hypocrisy, totally agree. However, I also agree with Khun Preedee that something must be fix before before the election is any meaningful.
Jakrapob on the state within the state
Thaksin’s own plan how long to “stay at the helm” was made public at one TRT party meeting in the early years of his premiership:
He intended to be prime minister for 2 terms (8 years) and expected TRT to be the ruling party for 2 decades.
Suwicha Thakor still locked up
Chris Beale: If HMK really wanted to show himself clearly against the LM law, he would pardon people the moment they are arrested and charged. Not let them languish in prison for months.
Don’t respond that he has to wait until a conviction and a pardon request. He has unconditional power to pardon. Nothing prevents a pardon being granted even before a charge has been made.
Thai institutions: Police
LesAbbey – 28
Not really if the aim is to break up the power centers in the police department
Huh, so you are saying that decentralizing the police department will somehow get rid of the corruption in the force?
Bangkok shophouses
Quite apart from anything else the Kathmandu Gallery is run by Manit Sriwanichpoom who is a leading activist on the contemporary Thai art scene. He was prominent in protesting the government’s decision to allocate the bulk of film funds to one patriotic specimen (“Naruesan”).
His book of photos (“Protest”) documents a year of struggle by all elements of Thai society trying to get a hearing outside Government House and predates both Yellow and Red shirt protests. His Pink Man series is well known but not well known enough, in my opinion. Check him out at
http://chngyaohong.com/blog/contemporary/manit-sriwanichpoom/
From Village Scouts to Cyber Scouts
How can veggie and co stay in power unless they keep tightening the screws?
Thailand in Crisis: Episode 6
Colin #4
Just curious: Can you tell me who on, for example, the constitution committee is “non-partisan”?
Suwicha Thakor still locked up
Chris Beale: Does anyone get released without having to grovel?
I’ll believe your portrayal when people like Giles, Jakrapob & Darunee don’t even get charged (because you know all it would take is a word from above by the great one for all this nonsense to stop).
Can I respectfully request you read this for an alternative assessment http://timeupthailand.blogspot.com/2010/06/why-i-dont-love-king.html
“Opposing the atrocious Thailand Reform Plan”
c3
“….. the US house of representatives who have backed the Abhisit plan.”
Not exactly. Read the actual text of the resolution*:
“(4) supports the goals of the 5-point roadmap of the Government of Thailand for national reconciliation…..”
Rather like supporting “mom and apple pie”? Granted that there was no need for any resolution to be passed – so even the anodyne wording of this one is already being touted** by Abhisit as endorsement of what he’s actually doing (and not doing) rather than simply the principles expressed in the plan.
* http://bangkokpost.com/media/multimedia/resolution.pdf
** http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/184655/pm-lauds-us-congress-resolution-on-road-map
Thailand in Crisis: Episode 6
“this is a chance for those who want to voice their concerns.”
Nice sentiments there Colin, but in reality those who voice their concerns are more likely to end up in detention, or on some watch list.
Like the students said, reconciliation should be about tolerance, not forcing everyone to think the same.
From Village Scouts to Cyber Scouts
Govt cracks down on social networking forums
Now it’ll be no bail, “secret trial”, conviction, and 10 to 20 years in prison. The cyber-scouts in action. Turned in by an “elitettte” no doubt. One with a picture of Col. Sansern on her wall.
Lese Majeste is still A-OK with Amnesty Internetional, I understand. Some of their best friends are cyber-scouts. And “elitettes”.
Thailand is gone in this incarnation. Let’s hope the body is speedily burned and the next life begun soon.
Suwicha Thakor still locked up
chris beale – 24
I think Da Torpido should get the same treatment right??
Thailand in Crisis: Episode 6
I know some people involved with the reconciliation efforts and they are non-partisan. Just want to get involved for the love of their country.
To dismiss the effort as a PR stunt I think is a bit much and I know those involved would be hurt from this thinking.
Thailand needs this, no matter how flawed it may be, it is the start to something which is better than nothing and the cycle of the last 4-5 years.
Take a step back, analyze this situation…everyone should be getting involved to make sure its done right, this is a chance for those who want to voice their concerns.
From Village Scouts to Cyber Scouts
Another daft idea from this unproductive government. Is this really the way to reconciliation? Isn’t Thailand divided enough already?
Stop this non-sense witch hunt. Thailand is not a communist country!