Gee – so Thai politics is money politics. What a surprise !
Who could ever have believed that ??!
The real question is : who’s currently winning ?
Currently, it looks like Thaksin is losing.
“Sihasak Phuangketkeow, Thailand’s Ambassador to the United Nations Office in Geneva was named on Monday as the newest President of the UN Human Rights Council.
The UNHRC is the panel formed in 2006 to tackle human rights violations worldwide….He was the candidate of the panel’s Asian members.
Sihasak told the Council in Geneva Monday that he wanted to concentrate over the next year on how members can use their “rich diversity” to forge a more united agenda on key human rights issues……Sihasak was former Thai foreign ministry’s spokesman and deputy permanent secretary.”
Update: “Apichatpong Weerasethakul’s Palme d’Or-winning Uncle Boonmee Who Can Recall His Past Lives (р╕ер╕╕р╕Зр╕Ър╕╕р╕Нр╕бр╕╡р╕гр╕░р╕ер╕╢р╕Б р╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤, Lung Boonmee Raleuk Chat) will open in Bangkok on Friday, June 25, in a limited, month-long release at SFX the Emporium cinema. It’s passed censors and is rated 15+.
Les Abbey: I recommend you watch the final hour or so (particularly when Nattawud & Jatuporn announced they were surrendering & requested the protesters go home) of the PTV broadcast from the reds stage on May 19th before you continue trying to make a big deal about how a legitimate protest movement might be (partially?) financed.
If NM or anyone could provide a link would be great.
(Jim Taylor posted some snippets in a previous thread)
You should also not dismiss the many fundraising events were held by redshirts/UDD in the months leading up to the April protests – see my report of one such event here http://nganadeeleg.blogspot.com/2010/01/undefeated.html
Simon: Thank you – You make a very good point about regurgitating propaganda, and your claim about the current parliament being elected is an excellent example.
Such claims completely ignore an illegal military coup, tearing up of a constitution, imposition of a new constitution at gunpoint, exoneration of coup leaders, military & judicial interferences to quash the winners of the post coup election, PAD ‘protected’ terrorists, the current junta’s avoidance of a legitimizing election at all costs (including over 90 dead bodies), and the use of draconian LM, Computer Crime & Emergency laws to crush any dissent.
I have no problem with discussing funding and the corruption caused by money in politics in any groups, but the one simple question that I asked you seem to be unable to answer. Not being able to do that you want to switch to other questions, but it’s probably better to get this one out of the way first.
So here it is again, all are welcome to answer. I’m sure there must be one movement at least. Surely we aren’t unique are we?
But a test would be when in Thailand, or where else in the world, has a legitimate pro-democracy movement paid its supporters to protest for weeks on end with the money coming from, in the main, one man and his family?
I was thinking of the pro-democracy movements in Eastern Europe where there probably was CIA funding, but I don’t think it got down as far payments to protesters. How about the ANC in South Africa? Did they pay their protesters. In the early days was there financial help from Russia? If so did that get down to the townships as per diem?
But a test would be when in Thailand, or where else in the world, has a legitimate pro-democracy movement paid its supporters to protest for weeks on end with the money coming from, in the main, one man and his family?
We know that some very rich industrialists were supporting the PAD but with the rank and file being middle-class I suspect that they were not getting a per diem but were self financed.
Again during the US civil rights movement demonstrations I never heard of anyone getting paid to be at them. I think my question still stands unanswered.
they failed in that when the UDD leaders gave up the leadership and left their supporters to the mercy of the army, there was nobody from the left ready to jump in and take control.
Actually the RedSiam (the left leaning side of the Red) has announce their continuation of the movement here;
I think the best way to prove your point is to wait until the time comes. Money can get people so far, and death is not one of that. Furthermore, political science professors used to say that “Protest is a luxury activity”, you have to skip work to participate in a protest
I’m just want to prove a point that poor people in Thailand are, in fact, much better off than other developing country. They were not “dirt” poor like everyone assumed. Throughout late last year and early this year there were hundred of fund raising events going on in BKK and up country to gather donation to fund the current protest.
Les Abbey(#4): On the “norm” for demonstrations, the PAD made no secret of the high costs, constantly soliciting funds and many times announcing in interviews the millions of baht they claimed to be receiving each day. As for the good old days, in the US at least, civil rights organizations like Martin Luther King’s were constantly soliciting money from sympathetic wealthy benefactors for their work (see Taylor Branch’s trilogy, among many other sources on this).
There are great many ways to translate cash into motivation, directly handing it over is probably the least efficient.
To take a real piss at the supporters you could even send a very popular (and highly paid) leader to plead for help and elicit cash donations that won’t even cover his traveling expenses.
I’m not saying it has happened but with numbers thrown around there’s huge discrepancy between how much reds were raising themselves and how much Thaksin and Co spent on the movement.
Reds made a big deal of each 100k donation, publicly announcing it on the stage, while on Thaksin’s side we are talking billions.
For all we know this money may go to the underground money changer and sneak out the border (Kampuchea the best) to replenish cashflow. He had a taste of policy-level advantage. Love Live the Oligarchy. I think he would prefer a Senior Minister title like LKY of Singapore. In the analogy of the stable owner-horse-jockey, Thaksin had suffered a public indignation every December 24’s night during 5-year’s tenure. If AV doesn’t go for broke come this election, it will be Righteous Indignation Day for Takxin. And quite many superstitious Redshirts believe he is a reincarnation of Chao Tak. By then Somchai Wongsawat and Chavalit Yongchaiyuth may have to request an audience to meet him. I must be dreaming a dream! Jockey owns the horse.
Les Abbey: I’m not buying into your discussion on what’s a legitimate protest movement, and what’s not.
(one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter)
However, if you wish to carry on about the possible funding by a democratically elected PM of a protest movement against the illegal military coup and other manipulations that ousted his TRT & the PPP governments, then I think you are wasting breath (or keyboard time).
I’m not bothering to waste time speculating on raw deposit/withdrawal data that has been released without any proper analysis and was done merely as an exercise to discredit.
But if you really want to play with figures, how about calling for similar scrutiny of how the PAD protests were funded, how the blueshirts & multicolored shirts were funded, and the transactions behind the GT200 & other military procurements.
While we are in that accounting mood, lets also ask for more transparency in how royal activities are funded, and look into the finances of the Crown Property Bureau too 🙂
The extent of the fund transfers is one issue but the propaganda that the funding means that ordinary red shirts have no other motivation than cash has already been debunked in a New Mandela article a couple months ago. Red shirts were simply asked what there motivations were – and money played an insignificant role.
One must remember that the western historical position on social movements particularly involving the poor is one of opposing them. So there are a lot of myths ready at hand in the west that aid in claiming that various movements are illegitimate. The myth of outside domination is almost a gold standard.
It’s ironic that it was the central myth about the insurgencies in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. Even people power in the Philippines was claimed to just be rabble being steered by the Aquino clique.
The reality is no social movement succeeds without substantial support by existing political and economic power. The myth is such a popular tactic because by claiming that a social movement must be pure it removes any chance of it succeeding.
The protests in the 70s’ are very different in term of financial support and organization. I was in the 1992’s protest against Gen-cum-PM Sucinda Kraprayoon and that was different from 2010 protest against AV and Ammart. The Yellow/Sondhi theHainanese is ‘same same but different’ from the Red/Thaksin the Hakka. AV & Cronies/Prem/? vs Thaksin & Cronies/TMT & WTML/T cells. For those who done the Math you have over look many other expenses. The intelligence, militia, CPT, Tomatoes & Watermelons & wives, drugs, arson contract, wtml snipers-cum-hitmen, propaganda machine, assualt weapons and ammo, bomb-making material, pat-on-the-back gifts, high crop yield pilot project in PTP-strong constituencies of the Issarn and etc. The cold cash withdrawals of that amount smells intriguing. Remember, it’s more difficult to withdraw cash just before election. Big bulk of the money go to Issarn to out-bid opponent parties. Thaksin’s networks of vote buyers are still in place. The easy-going countryside folks at the Issarn village where I live are looking forward to election.
Every significant political movement needs funding, that’s given, but usually it’s a fund raising campaign of some sorts where leaders make their case to would be sponsors.
In UDD’s case it’s the sponsors paying leaders to attract followers.
Where would it be without its own TV, magazines, like “Voice of Thaksin”, their brainwashing schools, their canvassers network borrowed from PTP and so on.
Even UDD itself is only a street arm of the overall pro-Thaksin movement, just like Robert Amsterdam is his international face and PTP are his puppets in official politics.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Thaksin’s greatest reform ever!
Gee – so Thai politics is money politics. What a surprise !
Who could ever have believed that ??!
The real question is : who’s currently winning ?
Currently, it looks like Thaksin is losing.
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
“Sihasak Phuangketkeow, Thailand’s Ambassador to the United Nations Office in Geneva was named on Monday as the newest President of the UN Human Rights Council.
The UNHRC is the panel formed in 2006 to tackle human rights violations worldwide….He was the candidate of the panel’s Asian members.
Sihasak told the Council in Geneva Monday that he wanted to concentrate over the next year on how members can use their “rich diversity” to forge a more united agenda on key human rights issues……Sihasak was former Thai foreign ministry’s spokesman and deputy permanent secretary.”
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/06/22/national/Thai-ambassador-chosen-as-new-head-of-UNHRC-30132138.html
Chula academics call for “return of justice and academic freedom”
Update: “Apichatpong Weerasethakul’s Palme d’Or-winning Uncle Boonmee Who Can Recall His Past Lives (р╕ер╕╕р╕Зр╕Ър╕╕р╕Нр╕бр╕╡р╕гр╕░р╕ер╕╢р╕Б р╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤, Lung Boonmee Raleuk Chat) will open in Bangkok on Friday, June 25, in a limited, month-long release at SFX the Emporium cinema. It’s passed censors and is rated 15+.
Showtimes will be nightly at 7 with Saturday and Sunday matinees at 2 as part of Bioscope magazine’s Independent Spirit series.”
Thanks to BKK Pundit & Wise Kwai’s Thai Film Journal.
http://thaifilmjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/apichatong-rama-uncle-boonmee-comes.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+WiseKwaisThaiFilmJournal+(Wise+Kwai's+Thai+Film+Journal)&utm_content=Google+Reader
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
Les Abbey: I recommend you watch the final hour or so (particularly when Nattawud & Jatuporn announced they were surrendering & requested the protesters go home) of the PTV broadcast from the reds stage on May 19th before you continue trying to make a big deal about how a legitimate protest movement might be (partially?) financed.
If NM or anyone could provide a link would be great.
(Jim Taylor posted some snippets in a previous thread)
You should also not dismiss the many fundraising events were held by redshirts/UDD in the months leading up to the April protests – see my report of one such event here http://nganadeeleg.blogspot.com/2010/01/undefeated.html
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
Simon: Thank you – You make a very good point about regurgitating propaganda, and your claim about the current parliament being elected is an excellent example.
Such claims completely ignore an illegal military coup, tearing up of a constitution, imposition of a new constitution at gunpoint, exoneration of coup leaders, military & judicial interferences to quash the winners of the post coup election, PAD ‘protected’ terrorists, the current junta’s avoidance of a legitimizing election at all costs (including over 90 dead bodies), and the use of draconian LM, Computer Crime & Emergency laws to crush any dissent.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
Nganadeeleg – 27
I have no problem with discussing funding and the corruption caused by money in politics in any groups, but the one simple question that I asked you seem to be unable to answer. Not being able to do that you want to switch to other questions, but it’s probably better to get this one out of the way first.
So here it is again, all are welcome to answer. I’m sure there must be one movement at least. Surely we aren’t unique are we?
But a test would be when in Thailand, or where else in the world, has a legitimate pro-democracy movement paid its supporters to protest for weeks on end with the money coming from, in the main, one man and his family?
I was thinking of the pro-democracy movements in Eastern Europe where there probably was CIA funding, but I don’t think it got down as far payments to protesters. How about the ANC in South Africa? Did they pay their protesters. In the early days was there financial help from Russia? If so did that get down to the townships as per diem?
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
superanonymous – 32
My question was –
But a test would be when in Thailand, or where else in the world, has a legitimate pro-democracy movement paid its supporters to protest for weeks on end with the money coming from, in the main, one man and his family?
We know that some very rich industrialists were supporting the PAD but with the rank and file being middle-class I suspect that they were not getting a per diem but were self financed.
Again during the US civil rights movement demonstrations I never heard of anyone getting paid to be at them. I think my question still stands unanswered.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
LesAbbey
they failed in that when the UDD leaders gave up the leadership and left their supporters to the mercy of the army, there was nobody from the left ready to jump in and take control.
Actually the RedSiam (the left leaning side of the Red) has announce their continuation of the movement here;
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:PMTw32cFYsQJ:th-th.facebook.com/note.php%3Fnote_id%3D120734851294447+red+siam+announcement&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=th&client=firefox-a
I think the best way to prove your point is to wait until the time comes. Money can get people so far, and death is not one of that. Furthermore, political science professors used to say that “Protest is a luxury activity”, you have to skip work to participate in a protest
I’m just want to prove a point that poor people in Thailand are, in fact, much better off than other developing country. They were not “dirt” poor like everyone assumed. Throughout late last year and early this year there were hundred of fund raising events going on in BKK and up country to gather donation to fund the current protest.
Thailand in crisis: Episode 4
StanG can you get post the link of P-net article perhaps?
I think a big flaw with vote-buying logic is that its very hard prove who is not voting for the vote buyer.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
Is it illegal or immoral to financially support political protest?
That’s the point The Regime has moved out of the frame of discourse with its ridiculous numbers.
The answer according to The Regime… pick a regime, any regime, Burma, Thailand, Pakistan, China… is “YES!“.
It is immoral… but more importantly illegal… to support political opposition.
The Regime in Bangkok has gone overboard. They are completely illegitimate. Nothing they say carries any weight at all.
The only question is how long will they be allowed to continue in power and what will be the means of their removal.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
Les Abbey(#4): On the “norm” for demonstrations, the PAD made no secret of the high costs, constantly soliciting funds and many times announcing in interviews the millions of baht they claimed to be receiving each day. As for the good old days, in the US at least, civil rights organizations like Martin Luther King’s were constantly soliciting money from sympathetic wealthy benefactors for their work (see Taylor Branch’s trilogy, among many other sources on this).
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
Nganadeeleg: Regurgitate the propaganda often enough and the uninformed may believe it.
Would you care to tell us which members of parliament are *not* democratically elected at this time?
A list will do nicely, thanks.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
“And, of course, the money trail points to movement’s real goals, nobody would spend so much without getting something in return.”
Good explanation for the PAD-Democrat paid rallies in 2008.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
Kaiser #26,
There are great many ways to translate cash into motivation, directly handing it over is probably the least efficient.
To take a real piss at the supporters you could even send a very popular (and highly paid) leader to plead for help and elicit cash donations that won’t even cover his traveling expenses.
I’m not saying it has happened but with numbers thrown around there’s huge discrepancy between how much reds were raising themselves and how much Thaksin and Co spent on the movement.
Reds made a big deal of each 100k donation, publicly announcing it on the stage, while on Thaksin’s side we are talking billions.
Thaksin’s greatest reform ever!
For all we know this money may go to the underground money changer and sneak out the border (Kampuchea the best) to replenish cashflow. He had a taste of policy-level advantage. Love Live the Oligarchy. I think he would prefer a Senior Minister title like LKY of Singapore. In the analogy of the stable owner-horse-jockey, Thaksin had suffered a public indignation every December 24’s night during 5-year’s tenure. If AV doesn’t go for broke come this election, it will be Righteous Indignation Day for Takxin. And quite many superstitious Redshirts believe he is a reincarnation of Chao Tak. By then Somchai Wongsawat and Chavalit Yongchaiyuth may have to request an audience to meet him. I must be dreaming a dream! Jockey owns the horse.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
StanG: I’m ROFLMAO at your reference to ‘brainwashing schools’ 🙂
I have a feeling many Thai’s are awakening from their own brainwashing experience http://timeupthailand.blogspot.com/2010/06/why-i-dont-love-king.html
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
Les Abbey: I’m not buying into your discussion on what’s a legitimate protest movement, and what’s not.
(one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter)
However, if you wish to carry on about the possible funding by a democratically elected PM of a protest movement against the illegal military coup and other manipulations that ousted his TRT & the PPP governments, then I think you are wasting breath (or keyboard time).
I’m not bothering to waste time speculating on raw deposit/withdrawal data that has been released without any proper analysis and was done merely as an exercise to discredit.
But if you really want to play with figures, how about calling for similar scrutiny of how the PAD protests were funded, how the blueshirts & multicolored shirts were funded, and the transactions behind the GT200 & other military procurements.
While we are in that accounting mood, lets also ask for more transparency in how royal activities are funded, and look into the finances of the Crown Property Bureau too 🙂
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
The extent of the fund transfers is one issue but the propaganda that the funding means that ordinary red shirts have no other motivation than cash has already been debunked in a New Mandela article a couple months ago. Red shirts were simply asked what there motivations were – and money played an insignificant role.
One must remember that the western historical position on social movements particularly involving the poor is one of opposing them. So there are a lot of myths ready at hand in the west that aid in claiming that various movements are illegitimate. The myth of outside domination is almost a gold standard.
It’s ironic that it was the central myth about the insurgencies in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. Even people power in the Philippines was claimed to just be rabble being steered by the Aquino clique.
The reality is no social movement succeeds without substantial support by existing political and economic power. The myth is such a popular tactic because by claiming that a social movement must be pure it removes any chance of it succeeding.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
The protests in the 70s’ are very different in term of financial support and organization. I was in the 1992’s protest against Gen-cum-PM Sucinda Kraprayoon and that was different from 2010 protest against AV and Ammart. The Yellow/Sondhi theHainanese is ‘same same but different’ from the Red/Thaksin the Hakka. AV & Cronies/Prem/? vs Thaksin & Cronies/TMT & WTML/T cells. For those who done the Math you have over look many other expenses. The intelligence, militia, CPT, Tomatoes & Watermelons & wives, drugs, arson contract, wtml snipers-cum-hitmen, propaganda machine, assualt weapons and ammo, bomb-making material, pat-on-the-back gifts, high crop yield pilot project in PTP-strong constituencies of the Issarn and etc. The cold cash withdrawals of that amount smells intriguing. Remember, it’s more difficult to withdraw cash just before election. Big bulk of the money go to Issarn to out-bid opponent parties. Thaksin’s networks of vote buyers are still in place. The easy-going countryside folks at the Issarn village where I live are looking forward to election.
Money – don’t give me that do goody good bullshit
Every significant political movement needs funding, that’s given, but usually it’s a fund raising campaign of some sorts where leaders make their case to would be sponsors.
In UDD’s case it’s the sponsors paying leaders to attract followers.
Where would it be without its own TV, magazines, like “Voice of Thaksin”, their brainwashing schools, their canvassers network borrowed from PTP and so on.
Even UDD itself is only a street arm of the overall pro-Thaksin movement, just like Robert Amsterdam is his international face and PTP are his puppets in official politics.