Chris Beale: No, Wassana was not fired from the Bangkok Post and so she is not “back”. She quit her radio interviewing job in protest over Suthep’s instruction that red-supporting soldiers could not be interviewed, saying that precluded her from being a journalist. She remained on the job at the Bangkok Post.
Sorry to hear that even MIT grad even fail you, but comparing to the people that graduated from the supposedly Thailand’s oxford or Thailand’s west-point you might actually felt 3-tier US graduated is a least 3-leaps ahead. The point why I brought this up was because I want to show you that, there are many quality people in the Army that really want the Army to reform but because of the current corrupted system forced them to go with the flow like staged coup, sell drugs, and kill their own citizen even if they don’t want to but they have to do it anyway for career advancement or whatever the reason might be.
However, I agreed with you that they have to stop trying to be God (father). Now at least suspected that Big-Jiw knows what is going on and what’s the proper cause of action that Thailand needs to take to fix this fundamental problem. His decision to join the group that thinks that Thailand needs to change is a testament to that( however, I’m not talking about PTP or the red but liberal-leaned population as a whole) that’s why he doesn’t mindlessly listen to the order from the “top” like what Prayuth has been doing. I honestly felt that Big-Jiw might actually be one of the changing force in the Army, but I still think that Big-Jiw is too slimy to be seriously committed to movement unless he is certain that he has join the winning side.
[Editor (NSF) – Jon: In this case, and many other cases, your attacks on people that you do not know are inappropriate. The author of this piece may, for all you know, be devoted to the “real work” that you hold dearest. It’s probably best to take this particular hint – I offer it with all due respect.]
From above: “Our great teacher, history, also reminds us that governments that use the term ‘terrorist’ against their own citizens are showing the symptoms of hard-line, repressive control, even ruling through terror. ”
This preaching style is really worthless. Give me an example and cite your source like Paul Chambers does in the previous article. Is this an academic blog run by real academics? Or just a Farang “South East Asian Studies” spew-my-personal-feelings and emotions out on the page because-I-have-some-status-in-a-western university joke blog?
“Terrorism” may have accumulated a lot of connotations along the way but it is the noun form of “terrorize” and that is exactly what the red shirts were doing to people in Bangkok. That includes unpredictable violence and bomb attacks as well as the economic terrorism implicit in occupying and shutting the entire central part of a city. The negative economic impact includes a lot of Isan people working in Bangkok whose incomes declined substantially or even lost their jobs during the occupation of central Bangkok.
This whole text stinks of yet another know-it-all foreign “expert” telling Thai people what to do (“a writer, peace worker, artist and academic living in between countryside and city in Thailand”).
Doing real work, humble non-self aggrandizing work, teaching poor people in Isan or the North skills that they can get ahead with and prosper in the, up ’til now, thriving Thai economy, that is what the real heroes do.
And basically Tarrin, every time you talk about this issue, it is really easy to figure that you are a bit of an inside admirer of certain elements of the military. Take this advice. it’s time for them to stop trying to be God in this country and do the job they are paid to do, regardless of whether they have an MIT education or not. I’ve met MIT grads in this country, in top jobs. They have failed to impress me, since they are still locked into the worst kind of grayngjai with people they perceive to be of their own sort. It’s either that or they are locked in a conflicts in which the bystanders always get all the blame.
Tarrin, as a non-supporter of this government I am not in the least bit surprised they let him off the hook. If soldiers dabble in politics, they inevitably get it wrong. They have the wrong set of skills. and it’s time they learned that plain & simple fact. The MIT boast doesn’t impress this mere mortal. In Big Jiew’s case, one wonders whether his military skills are really up to much either. Perhaps it would be better for him to concentrate on running his optical business to actually make money and provide better glasses to read the fine print. Some people think they can run before they have learned to walk.
The PADs like Del and the Democrats obsession with Thaksin is the real stumbling block to any re-concialliation in Thailand. Of course there’s also the -the reds are a bunch of country buffaloes- mindset. You really cannot be serious about giving buffaloes the right to vote?
While I agree with most of the writer’s points, with that type of mindset (ambly demonstrated by writers like DEL), how do you find a middle ground?
A lot of unanswered questions come to mind. Will the current Democrat government pursue harsh sentences against those arrested, such as terrorism charges, or will it grant a general amnesty to those arrested for non-violent crimes such as violating the curfew? I didn’t see the names of the Brit or the Aussie who had been arrested, are they held separately? Who are the 10 Burmese being held in Pathumthani and what are they charged with? Certainly the sentencing of some has come very quickly, especially when compared to the completed lack of any punishment for the PAD leaders who seized Government House or the airports.
#10
Thailand’s elite is wonderful at lecturing the ordinary citizen about where they are going wrong, but are totally incapable of living by their own standards. If they want reconciliation, perhaps it is about time they (both colors) reconciled themselves to the fact that the rest of the population do not owe them a living for doing nothing. Frankly, all this losse talk around here about revolution around here is pure waste of time if that simple fact is not taken on board by those who believe themselves to be better-educated. Indeed, we don’t owe you fairweather radicals a revolution either.
Herbertson’s article is so lengthy but it still misses the whole point of reconciliation. Because according to Nopadon Patama, Thaksin’s lawyer, there could be no Thai reconciliation unless the Abhisit government makes an effort to reconcile with Thaksin Shinawatra. ‘No ifs and buts’ echoes the whole UDD leadership.
The road to Thai reconciliation must pass through Montenegro.
(So what happened to all those Rachaprasong speeches about double standards, election, dissolution, and d-e-m-o-c-r-a-c-y? The Reds had always been about T-H-A-K-S-I-N, right?)
Affecting change in a country where accepting responsability when one has done wrong seem almost impossible as is evident in the strong prevelence and impotance of retaining FACE in Thailand.
Thai people are a product of their own upbring and deficient education system. A system that denies them the ability to critically think and actually ask questions. They are not empowered as they do not understand they actually have a voice.
In the past education in the kingdom came out of the temples with monks teaching the principles of ethics and morals alongside side formal education.
To the present. The relevence of a moral and ethic civil codes seems diminished as the present social system glorifies wealth and status above all else. The teacher can not be questioned no matter if he or she is wrong or right.
Education reform seems like the only avenue for real change yet who will teach the present educators to actually critically think when it goes against the very social norms that have kept the underclasses undereducated and the Thai elites in centralised control .
Do we really need to explain that?? If one would go to ATM and withdraw, say 20,000 each time 4 times a week you get 80,000 and if that’s went unnoticed for a year you get about 4,160,000. If you just stole 20,000 a week then you get 1,040,000 well pretty reasonable right? Furthermore Athita didn’t quite say how long the activity was, but from my earlier assumption its pretty achievable.
I’m not going to argue on your personal opinion about Thaksin since that’s what entitle to you, but let me reminded you that those “greatest cronies” that the were talking about were participating in the 2006 coup.
Tarrin #14 – if Big Jiw has such brains and influence, how come he was able to get a better outcome for the Red Shirts than this ?
Because he’s not the one who call the shot, furthermore, he’s smart enough not to get into trouble as well, he is smart but in a slimy way, you know what I mean. Moreover, there could be no other way to save the protest since the day of its inception in March, the demand for house dissolution is simply too weak and wouldn’t solve any of the fundamental problems or attract enough support from the population.
FredKorat –
If you really read the record the reason why Thailand lost the secret war to Laos was because, a radio man give the wrong coordinated to the attacking plane thus the plane attack their own position and the Laotian Army overrun a very important tactical position thus lead to a stalemate and cease-fire agreement thereafter. Is that his fault? could be, that’s up to debate. If you really know how to Army works you would know that there are various type of personal working for the Army, there are some people in the Thai Army who graduate from West-point or even MIT, that’s the type of people that Big-Jiw have connection with.
If my reason still doesn’t sound convincing then don’t you wonder why the government is so reluctant to put a charge on him? he never go to the court, he dodged most of the political cases while the 111 of TRT and some from PPP got banned from politic. Despite all that he is able to support the PTP indirectly. If he’s stupid he would have been shot like Dae Dang long time ago.
Maybe someone could tell me what banks allow ATM withdrawals of, say, 300,ooo+ Baht a time?
If you can, this would explain Athita’s, ‘The maid used his credit card to withdraw cash several time, I think almost a million in total.’ quite nicely.
Otherwise, it all sounds rather implausible and becomes just another squalid rumour in the ever present smear campaign normally known as Thai politics.
Regarding Gen Chavalit, I think the best way to see him is having always sought to break out of the shadow of Prem and, as well, find a way to erode the lock Prem has on the military hierarchy as Chambers has described. He’s never absolutely disloyal to Prem — he’s not a direct critic — but he’s never been loyal/subservient enough to be like Surayud, a part of the court. Chavalit’s motive is never really clear — a Thaksin-like vanity, a coherent view of Thai political evolution (1988’s “presidium comments?), or just Banharn-like avarice. But, besides his many obvious shortcomings, the ultimate barrier to his success always seems to be Prem. Prem has never backed his efforts to become PM, something Big Jiew seemed to have expected in the 1980s.
As I’m seeing here, the problem is from the government. They don’t want to step down, they just don’t care of anything. No one can force them to step down, except the coalition parties and the backers.
Despite people, well, I can say all around the world, want Thailand to be united, but simply the government doesn’t listen to the voice of people.
The solution you made here, even in the last Reconciliation Committee led by a Senate, appointed by Abhisit, to find out the truth of last April 2009 incident. The committee had some proposal to the government, but it was just a piece of paper.
Before the crackdown began in early morning of 20 May, a group of senate went to talk with the UDD leaders, but the government just nodded to the army to use full force against the people.
Those senates said “betrayed by the government”. Did the Government listen to that? I don’t think so.
It is just a “hero and bad guy” propaganda. The government wants to be hero, and painted those red protesters as bad guys.
Many scholars have advised to the Government, but they don’t listen. They just believe in what they’re doing is “right” thing to do.
For example, appointing a new head of Truth-Finding Committee of May 2010 crackdown is becoming hot issue in Thailand as the one Abhisit appointed is not recognized by the Opposition and UDD leaders.
Did Abhisit listen? No.
You are right about peace without justice is unacceptable. But who is going to judge?
Most Thais are already reasonably well-reconciled to each other. It is only those who are avidly playing succession poker who can’t really get along with each other. And yet again they want the ordinary public to pick up the tab for their arrogance and greed. Do we seriously want to put Joe Public through the ‘reconciliation’ hoops when it is blindly obvious that it is the greed of entrenched and irresponsible powermongers that has brought us to this pass?
Reconciliation will do nothing more than reward BOTH of the two contending color-coded succession terrorist goon squads. Their capitulation to the desires of the overwhelming majority, and adherence to the rule of law, are far more necessary.
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Information about detainees and places of detention released by the Royal Thai Police
The picture of the Brit and the Aussie guys can be seen at ThaiEnews.
They were chained and been kicked on the egg. Go and watch!
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Chris Beale: No, Wassana was not fired from the Bangkok Post and so she is not “back”. She quit her radio interviewing job in protest over Suthep’s instruction that red-supporting soldiers could not be interviewed, saying that precluded her from being a journalist. She remained on the job at the Bangkok Post.
The challenges for Thailand’s arch-royalist military
FredKorat – 24,25
Sorry to hear that even MIT grad even fail you, but comparing to the people that graduated from the supposedly Thailand’s oxford or Thailand’s west-point you might actually felt 3-tier US graduated is a least 3-leaps ahead. The point why I brought this up was because I want to show you that, there are many quality people in the Army that really want the Army to reform but because of the current corrupted system forced them to go with the flow like staged coup, sell drugs, and kill their own citizen even if they don’t want to but they have to do it anyway for career advancement or whatever the reason might be.
However, I agreed with you that they have to stop trying to be God (father). Now at least suspected that Big-Jiw knows what is going on and what’s the proper cause of action that Thailand needs to take to fix this fundamental problem. His decision to join the group that thinks that Thailand needs to change is a testament to that( however, I’m not talking about PTP or the red but liberal-leaned population as a whole) that’s why he doesn’t mindlessly listen to the order from the “top” like what Prayuth has been doing. I honestly felt that Big-Jiw might actually be one of the changing force in the Army, but I still think that Big-Jiw is too slimy to be seriously committed to movement unless he is certain that he has join the winning side.
Reconciliation: climbing the mountain
[Editor (NSF) – Jon: In this case, and many other cases, your attacks on people that you do not know are inappropriate. The author of this piece may, for all you know, be devoted to the “real work” that you hold dearest. It’s probably best to take this particular hint – I offer it with all due respect.]
From above: “Our great teacher, history, also reminds us that governments that use the term ‘terrorist’ against their own citizens are showing the symptoms of hard-line, repressive control, even ruling through terror. ”
This preaching style is really worthless. Give me an example and cite your source like Paul Chambers does in the previous article. Is this an academic blog run by real academics? Or just a Farang “South East Asian Studies” spew-my-personal-feelings and emotions out on the page because-I-have-some-status-in-a-western university joke blog?
“Terrorism” may have accumulated a lot of connotations along the way but it is the noun form of “terrorize” and that is exactly what the red shirts were doing to people in Bangkok. That includes unpredictable violence and bomb attacks as well as the economic terrorism implicit in occupying and shutting the entire central part of a city. The negative economic impact includes a lot of Isan people working in Bangkok whose incomes declined substantially or even lost their jobs during the occupation of central Bangkok.
This whole text stinks of yet another know-it-all foreign “expert” telling Thai people what to do (“a writer, peace worker, artist and academic living in between countryside and city in Thailand”).
Doing real work, humble non-self aggrandizing work, teaching poor people in Isan or the North skills that they can get ahead with and prosper in the, up ’til now, thriving Thai economy, that is what the real heroes do.
The challenges for Thailand’s arch-royalist military
And basically Tarrin, every time you talk about this issue, it is really easy to figure that you are a bit of an inside admirer of certain elements of the military. Take this advice. it’s time for them to stop trying to be God in this country and do the job they are paid to do, regardless of whether they have an MIT education or not. I’ve met MIT grads in this country, in top jobs. They have failed to impress me, since they are still locked into the worst kind of grayngjai with people they perceive to be of their own sort. It’s either that or they are locked in a conflicts in which the bystanders always get all the blame.
The challenges for Thailand’s arch-royalist military
Tarrin, as a non-supporter of this government I am not in the least bit surprised they let him off the hook. If soldiers dabble in politics, they inevitably get it wrong. They have the wrong set of skills. and it’s time they learned that plain & simple fact. The MIT boast doesn’t impress this mere mortal. In Big Jiew’s case, one wonders whether his military skills are really up to much either. Perhaps it would be better for him to concentrate on running his optical business to actually make money and provide better glasses to read the fine print. Some people think they can run before they have learned to walk.
Reconciliation: climbing the mountain
The PADs like Del and the Democrats obsession with Thaksin is the real stumbling block to any re-concialliation in Thailand. Of course there’s also the -the reds are a bunch of country buffaloes- mindset. You really cannot be serious about giving buffaloes the right to vote?
While I agree with most of the writer’s points, with that type of mindset (ambly demonstrated by writers like DEL), how do you find a middle ground?
Information about detainees and places of detention released by the Royal Thai Police
A lot of unanswered questions come to mind. Will the current Democrat government pursue harsh sentences against those arrested, such as terrorism charges, or will it grant a general amnesty to those arrested for non-violent crimes such as violating the curfew? I didn’t see the names of the Brit or the Aussie who had been arrested, are they held separately? Who are the 10 Burmese being held in Pathumthani and what are they charged with? Certainly the sentencing of some has come very quickly, especially when compared to the completed lack of any punishment for the PAD leaders who seized Government House or the airports.
Reconciliation: climbing the mountain
#10
Thailand’s elite is wonderful at lecturing the ordinary citizen about where they are going wrong, but are totally incapable of living by their own standards. If they want reconciliation, perhaps it is about time they (both colors) reconciled themselves to the fact that the rest of the population do not owe them a living for doing nothing. Frankly, all this losse talk around here about revolution around here is pure waste of time if that simple fact is not taken on board by those who believe themselves to be better-educated. Indeed, we don’t owe you fairweather radicals a revolution either.
Reconciliation: climbing the mountain
Herbertson’s article is so lengthy but it still misses the whole point of reconciliation. Because according to Nopadon Patama, Thaksin’s lawyer, there could be no Thai reconciliation unless the Abhisit government makes an effort to reconcile with Thaksin Shinawatra. ‘No ifs and buts’ echoes the whole UDD leadership.
The road to Thai reconciliation must pass through Montenegro.
(So what happened to all those Rachaprasong speeches about double standards, election, dissolution, and d-e-m-o-c-r-a-c-y? The Reds had always been about T-H-A-K-S-I-N, right?)
Reconciliation: climbing the mountain
Affecting change in a country where accepting responsability when one has done wrong seem almost impossible as is evident in the strong prevelence and impotance of retaining FACE in Thailand.
Thai people are a product of their own upbring and deficient education system. A system that denies them the ability to critically think and actually ask questions. They are not empowered as they do not understand they actually have a voice.
In the past education in the kingdom came out of the temples with monks teaching the principles of ethics and morals alongside side formal education.
To the present. The relevence of a moral and ethic civil codes seems diminished as the present social system glorifies wealth and status above all else. The teacher can not be questioned no matter if he or she is wrong or right.
Education reform seems like the only avenue for real change yet who will teach the present educators to actually critically think when it goes against the very social norms that have kept the underclasses undereducated and the Thai elites in centralised control .
Abhisit’s human rights education
JohnH – 13
Do we really need to explain that?? If one would go to ATM and withdraw, say 20,000 each time 4 times a week you get 80,000 and if that’s went unnoticed for a year you get about 4,160,000. If you just stole 20,000 a week then you get 1,040,000 well pretty reasonable right? Furthermore Athita didn’t quite say how long the activity was, but from my earlier assumption its pretty achievable.
Thailand in crisis – ANU video series
FredKorat – 47
I’m not going to argue on your personal opinion about Thaksin since that’s what entitle to you, but let me reminded you that those “greatest cronies” that the were talking about were participating in the 2006 coup.
The challenges for Thailand’s arch-royalist military
chris beale – 19
Tarrin #14 – if Big Jiw has such brains and influence, how come he was able to get a better outcome for the Red Shirts than this ?
Because he’s not the one who call the shot, furthermore, he’s smart enough not to get into trouble as well, he is smart but in a slimy way, you know what I mean. Moreover, there could be no other way to save the protest since the day of its inception in March, the demand for house dissolution is simply too weak and wouldn’t solve any of the fundamental problems or attract enough support from the population.
FredKorat –
If you really read the record the reason why Thailand lost the secret war to Laos was because, a radio man give the wrong coordinated to the attacking plane thus the plane attack their own position and the Laotian Army overrun a very important tactical position thus lead to a stalemate and cease-fire agreement thereafter. Is that his fault? could be, that’s up to debate. If you really know how to Army works you would know that there are various type of personal working for the Army, there are some people in the Thai Army who graduate from West-point or even MIT, that’s the type of people that Big-Jiw have connection with.
If my reason still doesn’t sound convincing then don’t you wonder why the government is so reluctant to put a charge on him? he never go to the court, he dodged most of the political cases while the 111 of TRT and some from PPP got banned from politic. Despite all that he is able to support the PTP indirectly. If he’s stupid he would have been shot like Dae Dang long time ago.
Abhisit’s human rights education
Maybe someone could tell me what banks allow ATM withdrawals of, say, 300,ooo+ Baht a time?
If you can, this would explain Athita’s, ‘The maid used his credit card to withdraw cash several time, I think almost a million in total.’ quite nicely.
Otherwise, it all sounds rather implausible and becomes just another squalid rumour in the ever present smear campaign normally known as Thai politics.
The challenges for Thailand’s arch-royalist military
Regarding Gen Chavalit, I think the best way to see him is having always sought to break out of the shadow of Prem and, as well, find a way to erode the lock Prem has on the military hierarchy as Chambers has described. He’s never absolutely disloyal to Prem — he’s not a direct critic — but he’s never been loyal/subservient enough to be like Surayud, a part of the court. Chavalit’s motive is never really clear — a Thaksin-like vanity, a coherent view of Thai political evolution (1988’s “presidium comments?), or just Banharn-like avarice. But, besides his many obvious shortcomings, the ultimate barrier to his success always seems to be Prem. Prem has never backed his efforts to become PM, something Big Jiew seemed to have expected in the 1980s.
Reconciliation: climbing the mountain
Very good article and suggestive one.
As I’m seeing here, the problem is from the government. They don’t want to step down, they just don’t care of anything. No one can force them to step down, except the coalition parties and the backers.
Despite people, well, I can say all around the world, want Thailand to be united, but simply the government doesn’t listen to the voice of people.
The solution you made here, even in the last Reconciliation Committee led by a Senate, appointed by Abhisit, to find out the truth of last April 2009 incident. The committee had some proposal to the government, but it was just a piece of paper.
Before the crackdown began in early morning of 20 May, a group of senate went to talk with the UDD leaders, but the government just nodded to the army to use full force against the people.
Those senates said “betrayed by the government”. Did the Government listen to that? I don’t think so.
It is just a “hero and bad guy” propaganda. The government wants to be hero, and painted those red protesters as bad guys.
Many scholars have advised to the Government, but they don’t listen. They just believe in what they’re doing is “right” thing to do.
For example, appointing a new head of Truth-Finding Committee of May 2010 crackdown is becoming hot issue in Thailand as the one Abhisit appointed is not recognized by the Opposition and UDD leaders.
Did Abhisit listen? No.
You are right about peace without justice is unacceptable. But who is going to judge?
Reconciliation: climbing the mountain
Most Thais are already reasonably well-reconciled to each other. It is only those who are avidly playing succession poker who can’t really get along with each other. And yet again they want the ordinary public to pick up the tab for their arrogance and greed. Do we seriously want to put Joe Public through the ‘reconciliation’ hoops when it is blindly obvious that it is the greed of entrenched and irresponsible powermongers that has brought us to this pass?
Reconciliation: climbing the mountain
[…] #2147 (permalink) I dag, 18:20 Reconciliation: climbing the mountain Anbefalt […]
Reconciliation: climbing the mountain
Reconciliation will do nothing more than reward BOTH of the two contending color-coded succession terrorist goon squads. Their capitulation to the desires of the overwhelming majority, and adherence to the rule of law, are far more necessary.