“When it came to the exam some handed in a blank sheet of paper.”
Was this because many of them expect that what counts more is daddy handing over different sheets of paper – the kind with a portrait on them? And, no – not to you.
Martajp (c20) – I certainly found that report well worth listening to (at the same time wondering how long one would have to wait to see/hear Thai media produce anything similar.
Genuine question: what struck you about it that you describe it as “the most extraordinary piece of reporting on all of these protests that I’ve come across”?
one more thing, Paul see “Matichon Weekly” (28 May, 2010 [2553], vol.1554, pp 16-17) which gives a full dislosure of the game play but emphasises two unsavoury individuals to watch: Prayut, which you mention, and equally hardcore junior Lt. General Daopong Rattansuwan (р╕Юр╕е.р╕Ч.р╕Фр╕▓р╕зр╣Мр╕Юр╕Зр╕йр╣М р╕гр╕▒р╕Хр╕Щр╕кр╕╕р╕зр╕гр╕гр╕У р╕гр╕нр╕З р╣Ар╕кр╕Ш.р╕Чр╕Ъ) who was involved in the “Bloody May” 1992 killings. Both have to please Abhisit because they are in line for the top job, though Prayut will be “first cab off the rank”. Both were hailed as heroes by the Democrat Party alliance after their killing spree of innocent protestors.
On whether PM Abhisit should step down within 1-3 months is debatable but I still think 1-3 months is still achievable.
I have not explicitly disagreed. In fact, I’ve offered hints that I agree. But 1/3 months is not what I’m talking about.
You made it seems like if a PM quite the whole country will collapse, that’s hardly the case since the government still retain the ability to run the day-to-day operation just not making anymore decision or project.
If the government quits amidst an intense security situation (and while large groups of people are holding counter-protests which say “do not dissolve right now”), is there a precedent? or are the precedents in favour of a timetable greater than a matter of days (i.e. at least a few months)? They are in favour of timetables on the scale of months. That was a “genuine grievance”.
Paul a couple of points: you say “Moreover, one could say that Thailand has only begun tracing democratization since the end of military rule in 2007тА│…I’d say military rule never ended! Secondly, there is talk now that Surayud (seemingly quiet) was actually behind organising the snipers. he is absolutely tough, ideologic and uncompromising. There is a great deal of detail here in this article. It is clear to me that Thailand will close iteslf like Burma; Somyot Pruksakasemsuk , editor of the now banned Voice of Thaksin (VOT), currently under detention, said much the same thing (which is why he was put away). He also indicated that, as many of us thought, three days before the crackdown there was a coup which saw Prayut come into dominance. The actions fo the present regime indicate a lack of concern for domestic/electorate and international human rights and show lack of a civilised way in dealing with opposition. The only way forward is backwards and dictatorship. The first principals of fascism are already in place. New appointments in October will show the line up in power among the amaat/military as I suggested elsewhere in a blog. This is a movement to uproot Thaksin and his support base (Red Shirts). I think we should be concerned that Red Shirt core leaders will be killed, as indeed Somyot. The country is already in the first step to closure: media opposition blocked; information controlled; opposition not to be tolerated; opposition figures banned from financial transactions, etc…We should all take notice. Dr Athit Urairat, owner of the rabid “Yellow” Rangsit University said that the 2006 coup was sloppy and needs to be finished properly this time…
Thank you for this post. I found it quite helpful. But there is one point I would like to raise in reply.
I suspect many people posting comments are from these later traditions like Trotskyism or is it Maoism again. There is nothing wrong with being a follower of these, but it does make for strange arguments.
Is there nothing wrong? I am not sure. I couldn’t tell. It’s worth asking. It’s worth each of us asking ourselves this.
Only if I’m sure that tinges of Trotskyism or tinges of anarchism or tinges of whatever -ism don’t taint my perception, would I say that giving in to those preconceptions is harmless.
Even “strange arguments” have consequences.
Our preconceptions affect the way we make judgments on facts. They affect what we let into our narrative, and how. And our narrative affects what kinds of actions we’ll take. Many preconceptions cloud our thinking very much & we are not free to make free judgments. We want to continually question those preconceptions, wherever they may be found. The best thing is to always be opening to new facts. I don’t think it’s easy. But then again, if we thought getting the whole narrative truth of a complex situation was easy, we probably wouldn’t be at a place like New Mandala, would we? 🙂
Despite his somewhat retarded look and greedy nature, Big-Jiw is one of the cream of the crop of the Thai Army, if you look at his track record you will know that the guy got serious brain power. Big-Jiw has influence over many of the high-quality officers in the Army, those that not simply following order but smart enough to stay quiet and make the move when time has come. You can see how much influence he got by simply look at the day when he gave the 11th Regiment a visit with a brown envelop, then suddenly everyone seems to forgot about the over-throwing monarchy charge. Yes, FredKorat is right about Big-Jiw greed, but he’s certainly wrong about Big-Jiw ability to think beyond his own pocket. I suspected that Big-Jiw might think that this sinking boat is not going to last for long, that’s why he decided to abandon ship and join a new one instead.
For all the details recorded in this article you seem to concentrate on what is not there and make the biggest deal out of it.
There’s no evidence of the military preparing to overthrow a possible PTP government. They are trying to prevent Thaksin’s return but that’s not the same thing.
I don’t think Paul Chambers left out the most juicy parts, military plans for world domination, on purpose.
We’ve been fed “this government is a military puppet” line for over a year, now Thaksin himself lambasted Anupong for kowtowing to Abhisit.
Someone should send him a link to New Mandala, I guess.
Yes this is the number giving by the police and somewhat unreliable, I couldn’t exactly remember the number anyway but those are the ball park. If you read my last few sentence you will know that I talked about “high ranking” police and military officers who are involved with drug dealing themselves, how do you expect we get a transparent investigation when we know that we are dealing with these kind of people? I think you should be aware that many of the major drug dealers in Thailand got some sort of connection with the military and the police.
If you want to talk about transparency then you should know that Thaksin had gave Thailand one of the most transparent government in, go to transparency.org if you want to check.
On 9 October 1983 three North Korean Commandos placed three large bombs inside the ceiling of Martyr Mausoleum in Rangoon and detonated over the visiting presidential delegation from South Korea. The explosion killed 21 and wounded 46.
Among the dead were the South Korean foreign minister, the economic planning minister, the deputy prime minister, and the minister for commerce and industry. Then president Chun Doo Wan narrowly escaped the carnage just because his motorcade was a few minutes late.
Burma immediately declared North Korea an enemy state and kicked every North Koreans out of the country and hanged the captured commandos except one who is still in Insein Jail serving his life sentence.
Almost thirty years later the generals abruptly resumed the diplomatic relation and started secret arms dealings with North Korea just out of the desperation to get hold of Nuclear and Missile Technology.
There is a pile of overwhelming evidence including the advanced machinery for the production of nuclear and missile equipment and hundreds of Russia-trained scientists and engineers from DSTA (Defense Service Technology Academy) like the defector major Sai Thein Win.
Civilized world will continue to ignore the real threat of allowing the nuclear weapon in the nasty hands of Burmese generals at our own peril!
“What relevance it has to the rest of the country, however? The author himself acknowledges the possibility of PTP taking power, for example.”
And an elected PTP-led government would be allowed to govern for how long? As long as PPP – but not as long as TRT? The author himself also cites “refusal of the military to protect those [2008] governments from demonstrations” – evidently (post the 2006 coup debacle) now the preferred route (in tandem with appropriate judicial action) to removing elected governments the military and its posse of civilian partners don’t like – with consequences we have now seen twice and will almost certainly see again.
Personally, I’d say that this has “relevance….. to the rest of the country”. What’s being discussed by Chambers is about rather more than just a bunch of uniformed primadonnas bickering over who gets what status and what slice of the spoils.
#43
In other words Tarrin you are cynically playing the Royal Thai Police game by deliberately muddying the figures. They were murdered. Who encouraged their murder? Thaksin himself said they did not deserve to live. But of course he did not pull the trigger himself. He just let it be known that this was the way policemen could get promotion under his regime. Given that we also do not really know exactly shot who in more recent events – or for what motives – I think we are right to continue to suspect a heavy Thaksin hand in these murders. Until such time as he begins to realize that he can’t fob everyone off with his continual lies and backhanders. Without some degree of transparency, one can not seriously claim to be running a democracy. and the same applies to this government. We obviously do hope to see a better day when we do not have to live off the tablecrumbs of either Thaksin or his fellow elite succession contenders. We can make a good start by not allowing ourselves to be duped by either side.
Yuri. I think you read far too much into Big Jiew’s actions. He was corrupted by CIA money right back in the Vietnam War era, and has been incapable of thinking beyond his own pocket (or rather his avaricious Indonesian’s wife pocket) ever since. If Big Jiew made the decision to join Pheua Thai, it was almost certainly because Thaksin paid him massively to do so. I mean, how else do you think the bankrupt ex-PM Samak paid for expensive cancer treatent in the US. John Francis Lee is right to talk about the military gordian knots, but may have to face the fact that the military is also matched in this respect by the police, various civil servants and even self-interested big business here. The problem is with New Mandala is that it always wants to play the radical, while never really acknowledging that there are no real clean players here for it to throw its whole-hearted support behind.
I’ve been working in a Thai university (with science post-grads) since 1994, and I’d say over that time the quality of the students, in terms of initiative and analytical thought, has definately gone up.
However, the undergrads are something else. Last year I lectured at Chula and couldn’t believe the attitude of the students. Strolling in an hour and a half late, eating in the lecture, carrying on their own conversations… at least until I threw out two of them and made it clear I was locking the door on late-comers. The result was that out of 50 students signed up for the course I didn’t have more than 20-odd attend my section of lectures. When it came to the exam some handed in a blank sheet of paper.
The drug war during Thaksin times was a bit controversial, out of around 2000 people killed, 88 was confirmed shot by the police about 500 or so was not drug related and simply normal murder case, while the rest were confirm to be the inter-gang killing to cut the link of the small distributor to the big guy who hold high ranking in the police force or the military. Simply making a generalized statement that 2,000 people were kill by Thaksin was just too naive.
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Abhisit’s human rights education
Thaksin was far more effective in oppressing ethnic minorities than Abhisit. His handiwork at Tak Bai was a masterpiece.
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
c43
“When it came to the exam some handed in a blank sheet of paper.”
Was this because many of them expect that what counts more is daddy handing over different sheets of paper – the kind with a portrait on them? And, no – not to you.
Thanong on King Bhumibol
Martajp (c20) – I certainly found that report well worth listening to (at the same time wondering how long one would have to wait to see/hear Thai media produce anything similar.
Genuine question: what struck you about it that you describe it as “the most extraordinary piece of reporting on all of these protests that I’ve come across”?
The challenges for Thailand’s arch-royalist military
one more thing, Paul see “Matichon Weekly” (28 May, 2010 [2553], vol.1554, pp 16-17) which gives a full dislosure of the game play but emphasises two unsavoury individuals to watch: Prayut, which you mention, and equally hardcore junior Lt. General Daopong Rattansuwan (р╕Юр╕е.р╕Ч.р╕Фр╕▓р╕зр╣Мр╕Юр╕Зр╕йр╣М р╕гр╕▒р╕Хр╕Щр╕кр╕╕р╕зр╕гр╕гр╕У р╕гр╕нр╕З р╣Ар╕кр╕Ш.р╕Чр╕Ъ) who was involved in the “Bloody May” 1992 killings. Both have to please Abhisit because they are in line for the top job, though Prayut will be “first cab off the rank”. Both were hailed as heroes by the Democrat Party alliance after their killing spree of innocent protestors.
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Tarrin // Jun 9, 2010 at 9:12 pm
On whether PM Abhisit should step down within 1-3 months is debatable but I still think 1-3 months is still achievable.
I have not explicitly disagreed. In fact, I’ve offered hints that I agree. But 1/3 months is not what I’m talking about.
You made it seems like if a PM quite the whole country will collapse, that’s hardly the case since the government still retain the ability to run the day-to-day operation just not making anymore decision or project.
If the government quits amidst an intense security situation (and while large groups of people are holding counter-protests which say “do not dissolve right now”), is there a precedent? or are the precedents in favour of a timetable greater than a matter of days (i.e. at least a few months)? They are in favour of timetables on the scale of months. That was a “genuine grievance”.
The challenges for Thailand’s arch-royalist military
[…] http://www.newmandala.org/2010/06/09/the-challenges-for-thailand%E2%80%99s-arch-royal… […]
The challenges for Thailand’s arch-royalist military
Paul a couple of points: you say “Moreover, one could say that Thailand has only begun tracing democratization since the end of military rule in 2007тА│…I’d say military rule never ended! Secondly, there is talk now that Surayud (seemingly quiet) was actually behind organising the snipers. he is absolutely tough, ideologic and uncompromising. There is a great deal of detail here in this article. It is clear to me that Thailand will close iteslf like Burma; Somyot Pruksakasemsuk , editor of the now banned Voice of Thaksin (VOT), currently under detention, said much the same thing (which is why he was put away). He also indicated that, as many of us thought, three days before the crackdown there was a coup which saw Prayut come into dominance. The actions fo the present regime indicate a lack of concern for domestic/electorate and international human rights and show lack of a civilised way in dealing with opposition. The only way forward is backwards and dictatorship. The first principals of fascism are already in place. New appointments in October will show the line up in power among the amaat/military as I suggested elsewhere in a blog. This is a movement to uproot Thaksin and his support base (Red Shirts). I think we should be concerned that Red Shirt core leaders will be killed, as indeed Somyot. The country is already in the first step to closure: media opposition blocked; information controlled; opposition not to be tolerated; opposition figures banned from financial transactions, etc…We should all take notice. Dr Athit Urairat, owner of the rabid “Yellow” Rangsit University said that the 2006 coup was sloppy and needs to be finished properly this time…
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
LesAbbey // Jun 9, 2010 at 3:41 pm — 58
Thank you for this post. I found it quite helpful. But there is one point I would like to raise in reply.
I suspect many people posting comments are from these later traditions like Trotskyism or is it Maoism again. There is nothing wrong with being a follower of these, but it does make for strange arguments.
Is there nothing wrong? I am not sure. I couldn’t tell. It’s worth asking. It’s worth each of us asking ourselves this.
Only if I’m sure that tinges of Trotskyism or tinges of anarchism or tinges of whatever -ism don’t taint my perception, would I say that giving in to those preconceptions is harmless.
Even “strange arguments” have consequences.
Our preconceptions affect the way we make judgments on facts. They affect what we let into our narrative, and how. And our narrative affects what kinds of actions we’ll take. Many preconceptions cloud our thinking very much & we are not free to make free judgments. We want to continually question those preconceptions, wherever they may be found. The best thing is to always be opening to new facts. I don’t think it’s easy. But then again, if we thought getting the whole narrative truth of a complex situation was easy, we probably wouldn’t be at a place like New Mandala, would we? 🙂
The challenges for Thailand’s arch-royalist military
Yuri – 8
Despite his somewhat retarded look and greedy nature, Big-Jiw is one of the cream of the crop of the Thai Army, if you look at his track record you will know that the guy got serious brain power. Big-Jiw has influence over many of the high-quality officers in the Army, those that not simply following order but smart enough to stay quiet and make the move when time has come. You can see how much influence he got by simply look at the day when he gave the 11th Regiment a visit with a brown envelop, then suddenly everyone seems to forgot about the over-throwing monarchy charge. Yes, FredKorat is right about Big-Jiw greed, but he’s certainly wrong about Big-Jiw ability to think beyond his own pocket. I suspected that Big-Jiw might think that this sinking boat is not going to last for long, that’s why he decided to abandon ship and join a new one instead.
The challenges for Thailand’s arch-royalist military
Steve #12
For all the details recorded in this article you seem to concentrate on what is not there and make the biggest deal out of it.
There’s no evidence of the military preparing to overthrow a possible PTP government. They are trying to prevent Thaksin’s return but that’s not the same thing.
I don’t think Paul Chambers left out the most juicy parts, military plans for world domination, on purpose.
We’ve been fed “this government is a military puppet” line for over a year, now Thaksin himself lambasted Anupong for kowtowing to Abhisit.
Someone should send him a link to New Mandala, I guess.
Thailand in crisis – ANU video series
FredKorat – 45
Yes this is the number giving by the police and somewhat unreliable, I couldn’t exactly remember the number anyway but those are the ball park. If you read my last few sentence you will know that I talked about “high ranking” police and military officers who are involved with drug dealing themselves, how do you expect we get a transparent investigation when we know that we are dealing with these kind of people? I think you should be aware that many of the major drug dealers in Thailand got some sort of connection with the military and the police.
If you want to talk about transparency then you should know that Thaksin had gave Thailand one of the most transparent government in, go to transparency.org if you want to check.
Question of the month: Burma and WMD?
On 9 October 1983 three North Korean Commandos placed three large bombs inside the ceiling of Martyr Mausoleum in Rangoon and detonated over the visiting presidential delegation from South Korea. The explosion killed 21 and wounded 46.
Among the dead were the South Korean foreign minister, the economic planning minister, the deputy prime minister, and the minister for commerce and industry. Then president Chun Doo Wan narrowly escaped the carnage just because his motorcade was a few minutes late.
Burma immediately declared North Korea an enemy state and kicked every North Koreans out of the country and hanged the captured commandos except one who is still in Insein Jail serving his life sentence.
Almost thirty years later the generals abruptly resumed the diplomatic relation and started secret arms dealings with North Korea just out of the desperation to get hold of Nuclear and Missile Technology.
There is a pile of overwhelming evidence including the advanced machinery for the production of nuclear and missile equipment and hundreds of Russia-trained scientists and engineers from DSTA (Defense Service Technology Academy) like the defector major Sai Thein Win.
Civilized world will continue to ignore the real threat of allowing the nuclear weapon in the nasty hands of Burmese generals at our own peril!
The challenges for Thailand’s arch-royalist military
c10
“What relevance it has to the rest of the country, however? The author himself acknowledges the possibility of PTP taking power, for example.”
And an elected PTP-led government would be allowed to govern for how long? As long as PPP – but not as long as TRT? The author himself also cites “refusal of the military to protect those [2008] governments from demonstrations” – evidently (post the 2006 coup debacle) now the preferred route (in tandem with appropriate judicial action) to removing elected governments the military and its posse of civilian partners don’t like – with consequences we have now seen twice and will almost certainly see again.
Personally, I’d say that this has “relevance….. to the rest of the country”. What’s being discussed by Chambers is about rather more than just a bunch of uniformed primadonnas bickering over who gets what status and what slice of the spoils.
Thanong on King Bhumibol
Dear Thanong,
You are living in complete Fantasyland.
Dear Thaksin,
Ditto.
Thailand in crisis – ANU video series
#43
In other words Tarrin you are cynically playing the Royal Thai Police game by deliberately muddying the figures. They were murdered. Who encouraged their murder? Thaksin himself said they did not deserve to live. But of course he did not pull the trigger himself. He just let it be known that this was the way policemen could get promotion under his regime. Given that we also do not really know exactly shot who in more recent events – or for what motives – I think we are right to continue to suspect a heavy Thaksin hand in these murders. Until such time as he begins to realize that he can’t fob everyone off with his continual lies and backhanders. Without some degree of transparency, one can not seriously claim to be running a democracy. and the same applies to this government. We obviously do hope to see a better day when we do not have to live off the tablecrumbs of either Thaksin or his fellow elite succession contenders. We can make a good start by not allowing ourselves to be duped by either side.
The challenges for Thailand’s arch-royalist military
Yuri. I think you read far too much into Big Jiew’s actions. He was corrupted by CIA money right back in the Vietnam War era, and has been incapable of thinking beyond his own pocket (or rather his avaricious Indonesian’s wife pocket) ever since. If Big Jiew made the decision to join Pheua Thai, it was almost certainly because Thaksin paid him massively to do so. I mean, how else do you think the bankrupt ex-PM Samak paid for expensive cancer treatent in the US. John Francis Lee is right to talk about the military gordian knots, but may have to face the fact that the military is also matched in this respect by the police, various civil servants and even self-interested big business here. The problem is with New Mandala is that it always wants to play the radical, while never really acknowledging that there are no real clean players here for it to throw its whole-hearted support behind.
Chiranuch behind bars
[…] Act. Chiranuch was arrested by police, on March 9, 2009. A year later, after the case was filed, she was detained briefly and […]
The challenges for Thailand’s arch-royalist military
Invaluable insight into the armed forces power plays.
What relevance it has to the rest of the country, however? The author himself acknowledges the possibility of PTP taking power, for example.
What interests do these generals have beyond their 150-170 bil budget?
Stopping Thaksin? Preventing another violent revolution attempt?
Only die hard reds would argue against those goals?
How does succession fits in all this? Seems like they are not making any particular plans and are not overly concerned.
An essay on “the dismal state of Thai education”
I’ve been working in a Thai university (with science post-grads) since 1994, and I’d say over that time the quality of the students, in terms of initiative and analytical thought, has definately gone up.
However, the undergrads are something else. Last year I lectured at Chula and couldn’t believe the attitude of the students. Strolling in an hour and a half late, eating in the lecture, carrying on their own conversations… at least until I threw out two of them and made it clear I was locking the door on late-comers. The result was that out of 50 students signed up for the course I didn’t have more than 20-odd attend my section of lectures. When it came to the exam some handed in a blank sheet of paper.
And this they say is Thailand’s Oxford…
Thailand in crisis – ANU video series
Colin – 42
The drug war during Thaksin times was a bit controversial, out of around 2000 people killed, 88 was confirmed shot by the police about 500 or so was not drug related and simply normal murder case, while the rest were confirm to be the inter-gang killing to cut the link of the small distributor to the big guy who hold high ranking in the police force or the military. Simply making a generalized statement that 2,000 people were kill by Thaksin was just too naive.