“Build a party that represents labour and small peasants. Call it a Labour Party or a Social Democrat Party or what ever.”
Last year Suttachai Yimprasert and others (not Surachai sae Dan, as was mistakingly reported in the media, he only had an advisory role) founded such a Social Democrat/Socialist party. Their application was rejected by the Election Commission on the grounds that it could be communist and anti-democratic.
Thailand’s political space does not yet permit a parliamentary party that indeed does represent small labor or peasant interests.
In most European countries you have socialist and communist parties – they are part of the democratic kaleidoscope there. Their existence as political parties is not “far different to mine or much of the west” in terms of understanding of Democracy.
How though could this party hope to hold power when the network monarchy…
We’ve never really seen a honest social democrat style party in Thailand so it’s hard to know how others would react to it. The “network monarchy” is a term I have never understood, but guessing I would say that the monarchy is obviously facing a crisis with the succession issue.
Somehow Thailand needs to break from its corrupt politicians and join this 21st Century. The provincial influential families that have supplied so many of the MPs do need to be driven out of politics. That’s the red shirt problem. When I look at the politicians that support them I either see the same old corrupt figures that had their noses in the trough when Prem was still prime minister or I see their sons.
…come on name names then who do you believe are the Trotskyist posters on here.
Now to start naming names of those I figure follow a Marxist-Leninist ideology would be very wrong. It’s fairly easy to spot the propagandists though. Giles of course is open about it and now back with the SWP Trotskyists in Oxford from whence he came. The guy in another current thread who says that the red shirts need to become more like Hamas or Hezbollah is probably a trendy one who likes their scarves;-) I see Professor Somsak in that other thread attacking those who are putting out the continuous spin and propaganda that there is nothing wrong with anything the UDD ever does. It’s counter-productive and probably why the UDD has not managed to make any real inroads to the Bangkok middle-class.
Les you were going so well until you started throwing around the Marxist-Leninist stick, come on name names then who do you believe are the Trotskyist posters on here.
You talk of starting a Labour party here, there is certainly a huge political hole in Thailand where there should be a left wing. This is obviously directly related to the rabid anti- communist, pro monarchy sentiments that started in the 70’s with the red gars, village scouts movements.
How though could this party hope to hold power when the network monarchy, through the army and PAD has shown that it is willing to ride roughshod over elected governments to cling to power. In fact how could any party other than the current incumbents feel secure if they won an election, any program of legislation would have to be carefully tailored not to upset network monarchy/ PAD sentiments.
I don’t think I’ve misunderstood your point? I know you have not specifically said that PM Abhisit should have caved to immediate elections. In that regard, I have been responding to the original post/op-ed (K. Kwanravee’s), which begins a round of criticism by suggesting that things could have been over if PM Abhisit simply offered a sufficiently “short” timetable. Given where the negotiations started and how initially reluctant the UDD negotiators were to raise the timetable, this could imply something silly like saying, “Yes, I’ll step down tomorrow (or in 14 days), now I trust the city will be back to normal without a government tomorrow. Please do.” With what other offer are we sure the UDD negotiators at Day One were satisfied? That is what they proposed, so I assume that if we say, “PM Ahbisit could have ended it on Day One”, then we are saying he could have just given in.
Like I have been saying, he could not have done this. Whatever we think regarding the way by which the coalition came into being, I do not want anyone, within an extreme political and security climate, caving in to demands for immediate or near-immediate elections (as K. Kwanravee suggests could have stopped the protests back on Day One). It’s as simple as that.
You have given written about what we may think of the state of democratic mechanisms in Thailand. I would say your “proper democratic society” is more like the state of the “democratic mechanisms”. There are other things to democracy than political and social mechanisms. There are democratic values. It’s no use only looking at the mechanisms. We need democratic values to prop up and sustain the mechanisms. And we can always deepen these values.
What have I spoken about? I am only talking about conditions conducive to increasing democratic values across the board. That’s a big part of what we want, isn’t it? If we want an increase in democratic values, then the current Thai government must act with a responsible timetable. Perhaps I too easily take this for granted. But I have given an example from two Western democracies. Regardless of the number of years between elections, the UK almost always has elections the first Thursday of May, although the “possibility” is much (51 weeks or 364 days) broader. And in 2008, Canada’s head of state refused the snap polls towards which the minority government and majority opposition were heading (she said “work it out or take more time, but you may not do this right now”). From my personal experience, the UK and Canadian governments I’m familiar with have acted with responsible timetables. I note that this has reasons related to democratic values, political access, and political participation. Immediacy and the threat of immediacy may not promote helpful values. Amongst many other things, they may contain a very strong and immediate element of motivating fear for everyone. Surely this is also true in an extreme security situation! There are many people involved in this who are neither Red, Yellow, nor coalition government. (For example, one of the few things the Multi-colours agreed on was that an immediate election was not the answer — or I may be wrong, I’ve forgotten!) The concerns of these other people regarding a timetable are, to use a phrase in K. Kwanravee’s op-ed, “genuine grievances”. They pertain to real and present dangers. This is what I have said.
If we begin a round of criticism (like the original op-ed) by neglecting the harsh reality of a timetable and saying the PM could just have ended things on Day One, then I think we should be pulled back to the harsh reality before moving on.
P.S. I’m sorry to hear that I didn’t get to see what you wrote previously.
“Recent debates on aid and development are waged on narrow terms in comparison to earlier debates in the 1950s and 1960s.
The principal concern of the ‘structuralist’ pioneers of development economics, and the key absence in the current debates, was an understanding of the structural impediments faced by countries going through late industrialisation and rapid urban growth.
These result in chronic trade deficits, shortages of foreign exchange and persistent balance of payments disequilibria.
The positive potential of aid was understood to lie in its ability to mediate these imbalances in the context of national industrialisation strategies.
By the same logic, this potential is lost if countries run trade surpluses.
Current debates on aid mostly overlook this dual logic, despite the fact that both positive and negative experiences of post-war development largely vindicate these structuralist insights, particularly in light of current global financial imbalances.”
Journal of International Development
21, 856–867 (2009).
PUTTING AID IN ITS PLACE
by Andrew Fischer.
Del(#56)-Not sure if you are serious in citing that Nation article. To begin with, how can the witness claim the shots “came from red-shirt guards, not soldiers” when “The unnamed witness saw two men gunned down from an unknown direction.” For that matter, how does that appear “to confirm autopsy reports that showed that all six victims were shot horizontally, not from an inclined angle from soldiers stationed on Skytrain tracks or skywalks…?”
Honestly, this article is “very interesting,” but as an example of bad journalism. It also suggests that the DSI sees its job as exonerating the government rather than getting at the truth, which I freely acknowledge I don’t know. DSI should spend more time investigating, and less time doing propaganda work for the government.
Your other assertions are certainly debatable. If you conclude that the guy with the flag shot in the head on April 10 was killed by Red Shirts because of where you think the shot came from, will you apply that logic to the other dead of that day?
And the “fake-dead-Reds” issue is a non-starter. We know that in the heat of the moment some people claimed it showed five dead people, but the matter was quickly and widely clarified and corrected. There is one dead guy, right? Since you are assembling evidence, I’m sure you know his story, yes? Please tell us who he is and the circumstances of his death.
“Yet, what they told me are so different from Somsak in regard to 1) the leadership and its relationship to their organized supporters and to their “mass”; 2) the relationship with Seh Dang and the MiB issue.”
I suggest that you simply tell us what they told you. That would enable us to compare your version with Ajarn Somsak’s version…
Nation is like a sub-branch of ASTV, you should take their word with a grain of salt. Moreover, this unnamed witness record goes against all other record provided earlier by the other people and journalist who were actually there during the 19th-20th
There is a clips that shows that there were at least a platoon strong of soldiers with pink sticker on top of BTS tracks, if this “unnamed” witness account is any logical, then what were the soldiers doing?? why dont they arrest or shoot at the gunman???
Moreover, about the clip that you were talking about, there’s no way you know where the shot is coming from from the clip alone, you just assumed that its from the protester’s side, but you forgot to take into account the bullet doesn’t necessary came from the direction he faced, the bullet could hit the side of his head or at any angle, we only know that all the upper part of his head was blown apart, it could only be done by a high velocity round at a relatively close range.
So, before you start calling other people amigo, maybe you should carefully observe yourself first?
Nuomi, Nation’s journalist have first hand experience with Thaksin, they don’t need courts or coups to tell them he has a huge evil side to him.
His first order of [media] business after being elected was to order secret investigations into Nation’s senior journalists accounts and financial transactions, by an agency that covers organized crime and other serious offenses too big for police to handle.
Afair, he even defended that investigation when it came out in public.
A well thought out plan following the classic World Bank pattern?
“Since its founding in 1944, the World Bank has been involved in over 165 countries. The Bank argues that less developed countries stand little chance to prosper economically without substantial subsidized loans from the developed world. It further contends that it is uniquely positioned to meet this challenge and that it must continue to transfer capital to poor countries.
The World Bank is wrong. The data show that most long-term recipients of World Bank money are no better off today then they were when they received their first loan. Many are actually worse off.”
Or, to give another example, it didn’t cost much to publish journal or magazine in the 1970s, so much so that the student movement those days were famous for publishing and distributing what was known as ‘One Baht Journal’ (р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Зр╕кр╕╖р╕нр╣Ар╕ер╣Ир╕бр╕ер╕░р╕Ър╕▓р╕Ч), i.e. a journal sale for one baht each. These days to publish a single issue journal or a booklets would require several ten thousands baht at least.
Being one of those that bought up the lack of student involvement in the red shirt movement, I do doubt the reason for lack of mass student participation is due to organizational costs. After all Facebook is virtually free, and we still see student participation in other countries with similar cost factors. For whatever reason, the students were just not won around to the UDD line. Whether this is the fault of the UDD or the students, it may be best to get the answer from your students.
Human rights and democracy do depend on the direction you approach them from. In the West where most countries have working democracies of sorts the majority of citizens probably vote around the centre, from centre-right to centre-left. In the UK for example this would include most of the Conservatives, all the Liberals and almost all of the Labour Party. The centre-left of most European countries are parties whose roots are in the old pre-WW1 Second International.
Now those from the above views would mainly be able to agree on minimum needs of democracy and human rights. Once we start looking to the extremes on both the right and the left we would see a divergence from this medium position. An extreme Buddhist royalist would probably not see democracy in the same way. Likewise a Marxist-Leninist in the traditions of the Third or Fourth International, again would not see either of these issues in the same way and would be able to justify quite extreme actions in the furtherance of the cause, as would the royalist or fascist of course.
This is one of the problems on New Mandala. I suspect many people posting comments are from these later traditions like Trotskyism or is it Maoism again. There is nothing wrong with being a follower of these, but it does make for strange arguments. Poor Professor Somsak can go from hero to zero because he isn’t following the required line. How often are comments telling us that black is white or suchlike because that is the propaganda line that is being pushed by Giles or one or the others.
Somsak #52, you should not believe so naively in what Jaran [seemingly] said (in contradiction to the other core leaders)
Seriously, what motive would Jaran have, to lying about Thaskin, et al financing the Reds? Other ‘core leaders’ who are politician followers of Thaksin are more reliable, are more unlikely to lie on this matter, then?
It’s the Reds’ ‘sympathizers’ like you that make the movement less credible, by irrationally trying to deny what is not only undeniable, but unnecessary to deny. (Sadly there are a few here.)
Athita – as much as a hypocrite I think Abhisit is, I think a lot of the problems with Thai politics (well and politics in general) is using smear tactics based on gossips/rumors. You might be right about Abhisit being a spoiled, stubborn, and ignorant elitist- but where is your source regarding his inability to use an ATM or credit card? I believe this could be true (especially given he probably don’t need to use either in his daily life) but using New Mandala to spread this unsubstantiated rumor on Abhisit I believe only discredits this forum and does not help anyone become anymore informed of the sad state of Thai politics. This is not meant to be personal (to you), just a general observation and hope more constructive points are made instead of the usual gossip mill or rant without any more constructive support.
I think Laos has a clear objective and knows how to go about it. The consensus among the leadership and the ability to agree upon the developmental ideology has made this economic growth mission much easier. It seems to me the leadership is going for the classical Marxist ideology by applying the United States developmental model for developing countries. This model has already produced many newly industrializing countries in the Asia Pacific Region, e.g., China Taipei, Singapore, South Korea.
I think it is a well thought out plan by following the classic World Bank formula: foreign direct investment, macro-economic stability, natural resources, infrastructure, Chinese entrepreneurs, the role of the State, etc. I don’t think there would be that many challenges at the implementation level. I hope to see Myanmar and the new Philippines leadership adopt this developmental model to tackle the poverty issue.
In the April 1oth Red riots, one video clip showed one Red protester his brains blown out by a shot clearly coming from the direction of the Red camp. Then there was that notorious ‘fake-dead-Reds’ (see video at http://www.siampolitics.wordpress.com). And now this latest Red atrocity against their . . . the massacre of Reds at the Rachaprasong temple committed by the Reds.
The Reds are a shoot-them-up-any-which-way Isan cowboys, intent on raising the Red body-counts. Shoot them dead, fake them dead, and massacre them dead.
The three amigos Jim Taylor, David Brown and James Francis Lee would be tearing their hair at this ‘smear’ against the ‘pure Reds’, eh? Specially James Francis Lee who seem enamored of that Prachatai’s unsubstantiated story of unreported ‘piles of bodies’ at Rachaprasong .
Somsak #52, you should not believe so naively in what Jaran [seemingly] said (in contradiction to the other core leaders), or in what a red guard may have said (under coercion? or distortion?): there is so many lies and innuendos spread around by the amaat that it is making everything fuzzy. The maths, as you mention, would be best to take the sum not the divisible parts, and reflecting wisely rather than jumping to a hasty conclusion. Why would certain interests (including you) want to try and link Thaksin to everything? maybe to reinforce the ludicrous “terrorism” charge? Maybe regurgitation of an amaat myth on Thaksin may look sexy but it is hardly able to stand up in a rational and fair court of law. The fact that Thaksin’s finances have been frozen, along with many of his supporters even before the recent freeze in bank transfers makes me wonder about the financial plot and the calculus necessary in such a constrained environment…1 (informant) divided into 1,000 [guards]=what? If I were to conduct a statistical survey and talked to one informant and drew a conclusion on this -I would not have any credibility…Perhaps you could make you own position clear, instead of trying to juxtapose two positions according to convenience of truth and to shift ground when/where the wind turns
Since you have completely written off this protest movement maybe you can enlighten us of how you believe Thailand can achieve democracy.
Well I can give my ideas, but they are pretty boring and don’t have immediate results.
Build a party that represents labour and small peasants. Call it a Labour Party or a Social Democrat Party or what ever. Take the power out of the hands of the rich families that control the present political parties with their provincial fiefdoms. It’s not quick and it’s not perfect but it worked in much of Europe and even in Australia.
You have to remember that some of the pro-UDD posters are actually from Trotskyist or other versions of Marxist-Leninist ideology so their idea of democracy is far different to mine or much of the west. To them taking the help of Thaksin is on par with Lenin taking the free train journey across Germany from the German government in 1917 or 1918 or whenever it was.
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Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
“LesAbbey”
You suggested:
“Build a party that represents labour and small peasants. Call it a Labour Party or a Social Democrat Party or what ever.”
Last year Suttachai Yimprasert and others (not Surachai sae Dan, as was mistakingly reported in the media, he only had an advisory role) founded such a Social Democrat/Socialist party. Their application was rejected by the Election Commission on the grounds that it could be communist and anti-democratic.
Thailand’s political space does not yet permit a parliamentary party that indeed does represent small labor or peasant interests.
In most European countries you have socialist and communist parties – they are part of the democratic kaleidoscope there. Their existence as political parties is not “far different to mine or much of the west” in terms of understanding of Democracy.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
doyle2499 – 90
How though could this party hope to hold power when the network monarchy…
We’ve never really seen a honest social democrat style party in Thailand so it’s hard to know how others would react to it. The “network monarchy” is a term I have never understood, but guessing I would say that the monarchy is obviously facing a crisis with the succession issue.
Somehow Thailand needs to break from its corrupt politicians and join this 21st Century. The provincial influential families that have supplied so many of the MPs do need to be driven out of politics. That’s the red shirt problem. When I look at the politicians that support them I either see the same old corrupt figures that had their noses in the trough when Prem was still prime minister or I see their sons.
…come on name names then who do you believe are the Trotskyist posters on here.
Now to start naming names of those I figure follow a Marxist-Leninist ideology would be very wrong. It’s fairly easy to spot the propagandists though. Giles of course is open about it and now back with the SWP Trotskyists in Oxford from whence he came. The guy in another current thread who says that the red shirts need to become more like Hamas or Hezbollah is probably a trendy one who likes their scarves;-) I see Professor Somsak in that other thread attacking those who are putting out the continuous spin and propaganda that there is nothing wrong with anything the UDD ever does. It’s counter-productive and probably why the UDD has not managed to make any real inroads to the Bangkok middle-class.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
LesAbbey
Les you were going so well until you started throwing around the Marxist-Leninist stick, come on name names then who do you believe are the Trotskyist posters on here.
You talk of starting a Labour party here, there is certainly a huge political hole in Thailand where there should be a left wing. This is obviously directly related to the rabid anti- communist, pro monarchy sentiments that started in the 70’s with the red gars, village scouts movements.
How though could this party hope to hold power when the network monarchy, through the army and PAD has shown that it is willing to ride roughshod over elected governments to cling to power. In fact how could any party other than the current incumbents feel secure if they won an election, any program of legislation would have to be carefully tailored not to upset network monarchy/ PAD sentiments.
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Tarrin // Jun 9, 2010 at 11:22 am
I don’t think I’ve misunderstood your point? I know you have not specifically said that PM Abhisit should have caved to immediate elections. In that regard, I have been responding to the original post/op-ed (K. Kwanravee’s), which begins a round of criticism by suggesting that things could have been over if PM Abhisit simply offered a sufficiently “short” timetable. Given where the negotiations started and how initially reluctant the UDD negotiators were to raise the timetable, this could imply something silly like saying, “Yes, I’ll step down tomorrow (or in 14 days), now I trust the city will be back to normal without a government tomorrow. Please do.” With what other offer are we sure the UDD negotiators at Day One were satisfied? That is what they proposed, so I assume that if we say, “PM Ahbisit could have ended it on Day One”, then we are saying he could have just given in.
Like I have been saying, he could not have done this. Whatever we think regarding the way by which the coalition came into being, I do not want anyone, within an extreme political and security climate, caving in to demands for immediate or near-immediate elections (as K. Kwanravee suggests could have stopped the protests back on Day One). It’s as simple as that.
You have given written about what we may think of the state of democratic mechanisms in Thailand. I would say your “proper democratic society” is more like the state of the “democratic mechanisms”. There are other things to democracy than political and social mechanisms. There are democratic values. It’s no use only looking at the mechanisms. We need democratic values to prop up and sustain the mechanisms. And we can always deepen these values.
What have I spoken about? I am only talking about conditions conducive to increasing democratic values across the board. That’s a big part of what we want, isn’t it? If we want an increase in democratic values, then the current Thai government must act with a responsible timetable. Perhaps I too easily take this for granted. But I have given an example from two Western democracies. Regardless of the number of years between elections, the UK almost always has elections the first Thursday of May, although the “possibility” is much (51 weeks or 364 days) broader. And in 2008, Canada’s head of state refused the snap polls towards which the minority government and majority opposition were heading (she said “work it out or take more time, but you may not do this right now”). From my personal experience, the UK and Canadian governments I’m familiar with have acted with responsible timetables. I note that this has reasons related to democratic values, political access, and political participation. Immediacy and the threat of immediacy may not promote helpful values. Amongst many other things, they may contain a very strong and immediate element of motivating fear for everyone. Surely this is also true in an extreme security situation! There are many people involved in this who are neither Red, Yellow, nor coalition government. (For example, one of the few things the Multi-colours agreed on was that an immediate election was not the answer — or I may be wrong, I’ve forgotten!) The concerns of these other people regarding a timetable are, to use a phrase in K. Kwanravee’s op-ed, “genuine grievances”. They pertain to real and present dangers. This is what I have said.
If we begin a round of criticism (like the original op-ed) by neglecting the harsh reality of a timetable and saying the PM could just have ended things on Day One, then I think we should be pulled back to the harsh reality before moving on.
P.S. I’m sorry to hear that I didn’t get to see what you wrote previously.
Lao development debates in the news
“Recent debates on aid and development are waged on narrow terms in comparison to earlier debates in the 1950s and 1960s.
The principal concern of the ‘structuralist’ pioneers of development economics, and the key absence in the current debates, was an understanding of the structural impediments faced by countries going through late industrialisation and rapid urban growth.
These result in chronic trade deficits, shortages of foreign exchange and persistent balance of payments disequilibria.
The positive potential of aid was understood to lie in its ability to mediate these imbalances in the context of national industrialisation strategies.
By the same logic, this potential is lost if countries run trade surpluses.
Current debates on aid mostly overlook this dual logic, despite the fact that both positive and negative experiences of post-war development largely vindicate these structuralist insights, particularly in light of current global financial imbalances.”
Journal of International Development
21, 856–867 (2009).
PUTTING AID IN ITS PLACE
by Andrew Fischer.
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Del(#56)-Not sure if you are serious in citing that Nation article. To begin with, how can the witness claim the shots “came from red-shirt guards, not soldiers” when “The unnamed witness saw two men gunned down from an unknown direction.” For that matter, how does that appear “to confirm autopsy reports that showed that all six victims were shot horizontally, not from an inclined angle from soldiers stationed on Skytrain tracks or skywalks…?”
Honestly, this article is “very interesting,” but as an example of bad journalism. It also suggests that the DSI sees its job as exonerating the government rather than getting at the truth, which I freely acknowledge I don’t know. DSI should spend more time investigating, and less time doing propaganda work for the government.
Your other assertions are certainly debatable. If you conclude that the guy with the flag shot in the head on April 10 was killed by Red Shirts because of where you think the shot came from, will you apply that logic to the other dead of that day?
And the “fake-dead-Reds” issue is a non-starter. We know that in the heat of the moment some people claimed it showed five dead people, but the matter was quickly and widely clarified and corrected. There is one dead guy, right? Since you are assembling evidence, I’m sure you know his story, yes? Please tell us who he is and the circumstances of his death.
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Ajarn Thongchai #47.
“Yet, what they told me are so different from Somsak in regard to 1) the leadership and its relationship to their organized supporters and to their “mass”; 2) the relationship with Seh Dang and the MiB issue.”
I suggest that you simply tell us what they told you. That would enable us to compare your version with Ajarn Somsak’s version…
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Del – 57
Nation is like a sub-branch of ASTV, you should take their word with a grain of salt. Moreover, this unnamed witness record goes against all other record provided earlier by the other people and journalist who were actually there during the 19th-20th
http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pundit-blog/what-happened-at-wat-pathum-wanaram
There is a clips that shows that there were at least a platoon strong of soldiers with pink sticker on top of BTS tracks, if this “unnamed” witness account is any logical, then what were the soldiers doing?? why dont they arrest or shoot at the gunman???
Moreover, about the clip that you were talking about, there’s no way you know where the shot is coming from from the clip alone, you just assumed that its from the protester’s side, but you forgot to take into account the bullet doesn’t necessary came from the direction he faced, the bullet could hit the side of his head or at any angle, we only know that all the upper part of his head was blown apart, it could only be done by a high velocity round at a relatively close range.
So, before you start calling other people amigo, maybe you should carefully observe yourself first?
Thanong on King Bhumibol
Nuomi, Nation’s journalist have first hand experience with Thaksin, they don’t need courts or coups to tell them he has a huge evil side to him.
His first order of [media] business after being elected was to order secret investigations into Nation’s senior journalists accounts and financial transactions, by an agency that covers organized crime and other serious offenses too big for police to handle.
Afair, he even defended that investigation when it came out in public.
Lao development debates in the news
-Suzie Wong
A well thought out plan following the classic World Bank pattern?
“Since its founding in 1944, the World Bank has been involved in over 165 countries. The Bank argues that less developed countries stand little chance to prosper economically without substantial subsidized loans from the developed world. It further contends that it is uniquely positioned to meet this challenge and that it must continue to transfer capital to poor countries.
The World Bank is wrong. The data show that most long-term recipients of World Bank money are no better off today then they were when they received their first loan. Many are actually worse off.”
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/1996/05/BG1082nbsp-The-World-Bank-and-Economic-Growth
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Somsak – 54
Or, to give another example, it didn’t cost much to publish journal or magazine in the 1970s, so much so that the student movement those days were famous for publishing and distributing what was known as ‘One Baht Journal’ (р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Зр╕кр╕╖р╕нр╣Ар╕ер╣Ир╕бр╕ер╕░р╕Ър╕▓р╕Ч), i.e. a journal sale for one baht each. These days to publish a single issue journal or a booklets would require several ten thousands baht at least.
Being one of those that bought up the lack of student involvement in the red shirt movement, I do doubt the reason for lack of mass student participation is due to organizational costs. After all Facebook is virtually free, and we still see student participation in other countries with similar cost factors. For whatever reason, the students were just not won around to the UDD line. Whether this is the fault of the UDD or the students, it may be best to get the answer from your students.
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Human rights and democracy do depend on the direction you approach them from. In the West where most countries have working democracies of sorts the majority of citizens probably vote around the centre, from centre-right to centre-left. In the UK for example this would include most of the Conservatives, all the Liberals and almost all of the Labour Party. The centre-left of most European countries are parties whose roots are in the old pre-WW1 Second International.
Now those from the above views would mainly be able to agree on minimum needs of democracy and human rights. Once we start looking to the extremes on both the right and the left we would see a divergence from this medium position. An extreme Buddhist royalist would probably not see democracy in the same way. Likewise a Marxist-Leninist in the traditions of the Third or Fourth International, again would not see either of these issues in the same way and would be able to justify quite extreme actions in the furtherance of the cause, as would the royalist or fascist of course.
This is one of the problems on New Mandala. I suspect many people posting comments are from these later traditions like Trotskyism or is it Maoism again. There is nothing wrong with being a follower of these, but it does make for strange arguments. Poor Professor Somsak can go from hero to zero because he isn’t following the required line. How often are comments telling us that black is white or suchlike because that is the propaganda line that is being pushed by Giles or one or the others.
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Jim Taylor #55
Somsak #52, you should not believe so naively in what Jaran [seemingly] said (in contradiction to the other core leaders)
Seriously, what motive would Jaran have, to lying about Thaskin, et al financing the Reds? Other ‘core leaders’ who are politician followers of Thaksin are more reliable, are more unlikely to lie on this matter, then?
It’s the Reds’ ‘sympathizers’ like you that make the movement less credible, by irrationally trying to deny what is not only undeniable, but unnecessary to deny. (Sadly there are a few here.)
Abhisit’s human rights education
Oxford education should educate Oxford students at least on how one should ford a stream side by side with a herd of oxen.
Abhisit’s human rights education
Athita – as much as a hypocrite I think Abhisit is, I think a lot of the problems with Thai politics (well and politics in general) is using smear tactics based on gossips/rumors. You might be right about Abhisit being a spoiled, stubborn, and ignorant elitist- but where is your source regarding his inability to use an ATM or credit card? I believe this could be true (especially given he probably don’t need to use either in his daily life) but using New Mandala to spread this unsubstantiated rumor on Abhisit I believe only discredits this forum and does not help anyone become anymore informed of the sad state of Thai politics. This is not meant to be personal (to you), just a general observation and hope more constructive points are made instead of the usual gossip mill or rant without any more constructive support.
Lao development debates in the news
I think Laos has a clear objective and knows how to go about it. The consensus among the leadership and the ability to agree upon the developmental ideology has made this economic growth mission much easier. It seems to me the leadership is going for the classical Marxist ideology by applying the United States developmental model for developing countries. This model has already produced many newly industrializing countries in the Asia Pacific Region, e.g., China Taipei, Singapore, South Korea.
I think it is a well thought out plan by following the classic World Bank formula: foreign direct investment, macro-economic stability, natural resources, infrastructure, Chinese entrepreneurs, the role of the State, etc. I don’t think there would be that many challenges at the implementation level. I hope to see Myanmar and the new Philippines leadership adopt this developmental model to tackle the poverty issue.
Thailand in crisis – ANU video series
Editor (NSF): Some of what is said in this video is objectionable. We have retained the link to provide access to this ethnographic fragment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6QpK-8sjmY&feature=player_embedded
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Now today’s The Nation item: “RED SHIRTS FIRED ‘TEMPLE SHOTS'” is very interesting.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/06/09/national/Red-shirts-fired-temple-shots%22-30131188.html
In the April 1oth Red riots, one video clip showed one Red protester his brains blown out by a shot clearly coming from the direction of the Red camp. Then there was that notorious ‘fake-dead-Reds’ (see video at http://www.siampolitics.wordpress.com). And now this latest Red atrocity against their . . . the massacre of Reds at the Rachaprasong temple committed by the Reds.
The Reds are a shoot-them-up-any-which-way Isan cowboys, intent on raising the Red body-counts. Shoot them dead, fake them dead, and massacre them dead.
The three amigos Jim Taylor, David Brown and James Francis Lee would be tearing their hair at this ‘smear’ against the ‘pure Reds’, eh? Specially James Francis Lee who seem enamored of that Prachatai’s unsubstantiated story of unreported ‘piles of bodies’ at Rachaprasong .
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Somsak #52, you should not believe so naively in what Jaran [seemingly] said (in contradiction to the other core leaders), or in what a red guard may have said (under coercion? or distortion?): there is so many lies and innuendos spread around by the amaat that it is making everything fuzzy. The maths, as you mention, would be best to take the sum not the divisible parts, and reflecting wisely rather than jumping to a hasty conclusion. Why would certain interests (including you) want to try and link Thaksin to everything? maybe to reinforce the ludicrous “terrorism” charge? Maybe regurgitation of an amaat myth on Thaksin may look sexy but it is hardly able to stand up in a rational and fair court of law. The fact that Thaksin’s finances have been frozen, along with many of his supporters even before the recent freeze in bank transfers makes me wonder about the financial plot and the calculus necessary in such a constrained environment…1 (informant) divided into 1,000 [guards]=what? If I were to conduct a statistical survey and talked to one informant and drew a conclusion on this -I would not have any credibility…Perhaps you could make you own position clear, instead of trying to juxtapose two positions according to convenience of truth and to shift ground when/where the wind turns
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
doyle2499 – 81
Since you have completely written off this protest movement maybe you can enlighten us of how you believe Thailand can achieve democracy.
Well I can give my ideas, but they are pretty boring and don’t have immediate results.
Build a party that represents labour and small peasants. Call it a Labour Party or a Social Democrat Party or what ever. Take the power out of the hands of the rich families that control the present political parties with their provincial fiefdoms. It’s not quick and it’s not perfect but it worked in much of Europe and even in Australia.
You have to remember that some of the pro-UDD posters are actually from Trotskyist or other versions of Marxist-Leninist ideology so their idea of democracy is far different to mine or much of the west. To them taking the help of Thaksin is on par with Lenin taking the free train journey across Germany from the German government in 1917 or 1918 or whenever it was.