Speaking of financing political activities, it may be of interest to readers who seriously want to understand the present day politics to point out one of the reasons why recent years have not witnesses more political activity by students, as in the past. It’s simply because it cost a lot these days to organize one. A single evening rally (18.00-24.00) , as I already indicated, would put the cost into several ten thousands baht. And I’m speaking here of a VERY ‘bare-minimum’ rally, i.e. one without good, big sound system, without live video broadcasting, without hired tents (all these were of course features of the Red, as well as the Yellow, rallies).
Or, to give another example, it didn’t cost much to publish journal or magazine in the 1970s, so much so that the student movement those days were famous for publishing and distributing what was known as ‘One Baht Journal’ (р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Зр╕кр╕╖р╕нр╣Ар╕ер╣Ир╕бр╕ер╕░р╕Ър╕▓р╕Ч), i.e. a journal sale for one baht each. These days to publish a single issue journal or a booklets would require several ten thousands baht at least.
Suppose the rally in Bangkok were in fact the creation of Thaksin.
Then suppose that instead he had decided to keep “his” money in his pocket.
Then there would have been no rally.
Would there then have been no redshirts?
I say there certainly are now and would have been.
I say there were redshirts because
1. the government they elected was overthrown by the Thai military in 2006 and their rule continued then and until today.
I say there are redshirts becsuse
2. the government put in place by the coup has refused their call for elections, rules by the abrogation of law and by Thaksin’s Emergency Decree through out their 23 provinces in Thailand, and is seeking to permanently disenfranchise them to prevent their assuming sovereign power in future.
The redshirts, together with the armed minority’s opposition to the redshirt’s cause, is the driving force in Thai politics today and Thaksin, Newin, Sonthi, Abhisit and all the rest are seeking to ride the tiger in one way or the another for what they see as their own interests.
The redshirts have no friends among any of these, these are certainly not their leaders, and the sooner they realize that, the sooner they set about following the excellent example of groups like Hamas and Hezbollah in creating their own, democratic, non-governmental, government and nurturing it until it is of the size and strength to replace the “elite” government itself, the better.
Further up this thread you will find someone saying why would people take the chance on being killed for a few hundred Baht, while you are saying they are getting paid too much for taking that chance.
I will ask our messenger if he knows what was being offered out here in the suburbs. Three boys off his motorbike taxi stand went for just one day, but came back because they thought it was too dangerous.
If I remember correctly the boys on motorbikes did it for nothing in 92 just for a chance to have a pop at the police, hence some burnt out police stations and I suspect some of the missing bodies from that period.
Now just so words are not put into my mouth, as I’m accused of doing to others, I’m not saying that all participants were being paid large sums, or even that all of them were getting expenses. Some were doing it for belief that is was a fight for democracy. I suspect the proportion of these was higher than last year when it seemed to be just the small group of students and others from the original anti-coup movement that were the true believers.
Anyone else find the second last paragraph of the letter referred to in comment#61 interesting (and confusing)?
Yes it does seem a little strange. Maybe I will go with what Nick wrote further up.
Father Joe Meier is a friend of mine since many years. I haven’t read his letter yet. Nevertheless, Father Joe is an expert on all Klong Toey affairs, though not on the political movements of either Red or Yellow.
In fact maybe Nick could confirm whether the letter is real. If it is a fake it’s awful well done as it seems to capture the style very well. Not sure if even Notthenation could have done this one.
If I have misunderstood you then I apologise again. I think you will find that Nick is a friend of Joe Maier so is capable of asking him which is why I posed the question. That for any reason I should not use the letter to confirm that some, (I accept your not everyone but that is a minor issue and not as important as you are trying to make out), participants were receiving quite large payments would be strange when it’s one of the few respected sources of news on this subject.
Jim Taylor: To argue that the Red Shirt movement is financed outside by Pheu Thai/Thaksin is ridiculous, naive and puerile. If Somsak had been watching the PTV live broadcasts he would see the fund raising activities (of which I, and tens of thousands like me, also contributed) and amounts collected…It sounds like a piece of fiction and spin from the likes of The Nation and ASTV (aka- government mouthpieces)!
Honestly this kind of ‘argument’ almost make me LoL (well, actually just smile). I don’t expect anyone to be so naive here.
– First of all, let me REPEAT again that I ABSOLUTELY have no problem with Thaksin network giving money to organize the rally. Jaran himself said so in the dying days of the rally, that money came from the like of Thaksin, Sudarat Keyuraphan, etc. So Jaran himself is “ridiculous, naive and puerile” too?
– About watching PTV. I’m almost certain that if there were ranking for those spending most time watching live (and taped) broadcast of Red rally, I must be up there among the top! In fact, I probably watched what’s on the Red stage more than a lot of people who attended the rally in person themselves (I sometimes went to the rally sites too). This is not strange as a lot of people just attended in person but hardly followed what’s going on the stage, I, on the other hand, have always been VERY interested in the contents, the styles , etc of the stages of political protests. So please don’t be that naive to site this against me.
– Now let me give some example about the financial logistics of organizing rally. A Red Shirt guard, according to a testimony to police and from what I heard myself, was paid daily expense around 500 Baht. Now if there were, say, 1000 guards. The total expense for guards in A SINGLE DAY ALONE would be half a million Baht! (You do the math for 2 months!) When there was sometimes announcement on stage that certain persons had generously given donation of 100 thousand Baht to the rally, the crowd usually went wild with loud applaud (as they should). I remember – do you? – an important case when last year, the name of Anuphong Phaujinda’s daughter (yes the Army’s Commander in Chief’s) was read on stage for giving a donation of 100 or 200 thousand baht to the rally. But what most people usually didn’t realize is that such ‘big’ donation would not even cover the cost of guards in a single day alone (not to mention many, many, many other expenses). And, as can be expected, there’re not that many donation with such large amount: usually each donation would be around 1000 baht or several thousand baht. Even MPs usually gave in tens thousands baht not hundreds thousand baht. (I mean what’s announced on stage, how much, if any, they gave unannounced cannot be ascertain.)
(There’re a lot of similar expenses like this. Say, petrol expense. As every knows, this rally moved a lot, in HUNDREDS of motorcycles, trucks, etc. The individual drivers didn’t get any money for driving around, but they were paid for petrol (not cheap these days!). I don’t have the number but can imagine one trips cost in hundreds of thousand of baht.)
So, Jim Taylor, who’re speaking ‘fiction, spin’ or “ridiculous, naive and puerile”? Actually if I were, so must be people like Jaran and a lot of observers. Sometimes the naivety of Red sympathizers (especially farang on this website) really astonish me, really. I AM one sympathizer too of course, but I’m also a realist and prefer realistic analysis to political point-scoring or propaganda.
Now your are being very naughty nowhere did I say that Thais were not capable of protesting without being paid.
If I have put words into your mouth, then I apologise.
What I hoped to get across was that is not usual for participants in a political protest to get paid or receive expenses, even in Thailand. Sure receiving gifts for attending politician’s election rallies may have been a fact of life, (but that doesn’t make it less corrupt or now less illegal). This time we are not talking about an election rally though and it’s should be able to be compared with 92 or the 70s.
. But the Aussie-expatriates I know who actually live in Bangkok are for the most part turned off by Thaksin S. politics, turned off by the Reds leadership and turned off by the incitement to Red violence. So makes me wonder why many NM readers appear so enamored of the Reds and Thaksin.
I think you shouldn’t make such a generalization statement, I know many expats who felt the opposite of you friend, does one person represent the whole population? of cause not, should you even be wondering about that?? you shouldn’t
@Muupan : Thank you for your opinion. That’s well presentation which can mislead many people but it’s everyone’s judgement to believe or not.
I found this as an unfair opinion. It seems that you are red shirt (UDD) or pro-Taksin. What you said is the same as what’s in red shirt media. I’ve read and seen both red shirts and public media.
I voted for Taksin party in the first election he won because I thought the rich should not be greedy but I was wrong. He did many corruptions for his own and his party benefit. He ignored the southern people and violence problem down south as he said he would help people who vote for him first and the terrorists who already killed thousands of people are not a big deal. His qoute was on media.
Why Khun Muupan didn’t say anything about the corruptions that Taksin did like he changed the laws so he could avoid income tax from selling his business to Temasek in Singapore for huge amount (76,000 MB). Also, he used his power as PM to help his wife winning the auction for land at Ratchada. He was found guilty by the court and then he escaped during the trip to see Olympics game in Beijing. Or you would say the court is injustice like the red shirt say. Every Thai people are under the same laws and same legal system. Taksin has chance to defend himself but he refused and avoid the same law as other Thai people.
You can’t deny that they are paid to be in the protest and only know that they want to bring Taksin back because he and his parties gave them money both on the elections and through national budget and he presented that he would help the poor in the provinces where he won the vote only.
I have friends and know people in provinces who were asked to join the protest with money offerred (Baht 500 per day for joining and Baht 2,000 for those who can make violence and destroy the things).
I don’t blame those poor people but to blame unpeaceful protesters. The peaceful protesters just hope that if Taksin is back, he can make their lifes better. And I hope that the present government considers this challenge and help poor people in sustainable way, not just give away money to them or through national budget to promote their popularity for the next election like Taksin and his parties did.
My friend in rich family who is well educated from US and support the red shirt said to me that the poor people have rights to take money and vote for those who give them money (what we call selling their votes) which is illegal to do. That scared me when people ignore the laws to get what they wants. However, I had pleasant discussion and share ideas with my friend who thinks differently.
I don’t mind if the budget is appropriately allocated to provinces more than Bangkok. At least the infrastructure and the education should be the same between the city and provinces but it’s not and it hasn’t been for long time ago. Taksin’s policy could not help either, his policies just made the province people feel that their lifes are better because they got money from Taksin. However, I admired him for introducing OTOP to help people selling and adding value to their products.
It’s time for people who have more chances to think about helping people with less chances. Also the present and the next governments (any parties) and all those politicians should concern and take sincere actions to ease the gap between the rich and the poor, the city and the provinces.
Our king has worked on helping the province people for over 60 years, for example, he tried to solve drought in north and north-eastern area with artificial rain and dam, spend his own money to help the farmers on research and increasing productivity and give scholarships and free doctor and dentist services in rural areas. He needs more supports from the government and responsible authorities to help poor people.
Those soldiers are from province same as the protesters too. I don’t think that they were greedy for blood and shooting innocent people. Moreover, any number of dead would not benefit the government at all. There are many warzones but the area in the news was the only area allowed life bullet. Friend of my friend is journalist from international media (RT) who was on duty there. He followed soldiers but didn’t see the soldiers shooting any innocent people to dead and no journalist complained about the censorships.
However, he and his journalist friends were shot by unknown snipers when they were on the motorbike to observe the warzone. He knows that they intended to shoot the journalists. He didn’t say that the snipers are from the government because they shot soldeirs and protesters too. He didn’t either say that the snipers were from the red shirts because he did not really know.
I thinks this is needed to be proofed but what I see now is the government and the opposite keep blaming and discredit each others both in and out of the parliament. I wish the politicians are more reliable and responsible than this.
I still see representatives who were leaders of the red shirts debated in the parliament using representative privilege. Now, they are still not in jail. So the government could not jail everyone who has relationships with the red shirts but only jail the leaders of red shirts who presented to cause the violence during the protest and those were jailed with court’s judgment. Now, I hope they will not escape and proof themselves in the legal process.
Well, my earlier post get filtered out, I guess I was being too sarcastic so NM didn’t let it trough. Anyway, you misunderstand my point, I didn’t say that Abhisit should dissolve the house, I said that 1 month – 3 months house dissolution is a realistic offer, but I didn’t say that Abhisit has to yielded to the offer.
I’m not sure what you mean by a “proper democratic society”, but my idea of democracy is not only voting, representation, and getting things done.
Proper democratic society should have a following 5 criteria.
1 Right to vote
2 Freedom of speech and expression
3 Total sovereignty
4 Rule of Law
5 Power by the people
Thatland lacks almost all of that, except number 1 maybe. When you say “Everyone should be willing to have time on democracy’s side.” it just not going to fly like what you said since Abhisit did not become PM from general election but from power brokerage by the military and helps from Newin who switch side due to the fact that he’s being charge with the “rubber shoot” corruption charge. Switching side to Abhisit will guarantee him walking free. This is the not “time on democracy” that I want Thai people to be in.
Thongchai is correct in his retort to Somsak. To argue that the Red Shirt movement is financed outside by Pheu Thai/Thaksin is ridiculous, naive and puerile. If Somsak had been watching the PTV live broadcasts he would see the fund raising activities (of which I, and tens of thousands like me, also contributed) and amounts collected…It sounds like a piece of fiction and spin from the likes of The Nation and ASTV (aka- government mouthpieces)! Somsak wants to be devil’s advocate but is standing on shifting sands. Had he been talking to Red Shirt protestors over the past four years he would know the fundamental reason why they are there and what motivates them to continue to protest despite personal hardships and loss of life. Dr Weng said to an interviewer from the ABC on this very question “was he paid by Thaksin” responding saying words to the effect “what price is human life?” – people were prepared to die Somsak not for some pathetic elitist liberal version of democracy: but basic rights, voice and political participation denied by your amaat friends. So what do these amaat want so badly that they are prepared to do anything, lie, cheat, and kill? They want a return to directed democracy at best, where right wing intellectuals, bureaucratic elites and aristocrats were to give direction and take control over what they saw as a runaway and misunderstood democracy (under Thaksin’s grassroot policies). But importantly, it entailed losing their personal benefits. They were prepared to take the country back more than fifty years to post-war authoritarian politics to achieve this end: to meet their own selfish needs. To many observers it was disappointing to see how some six years of economic growth and stability under Thaksin could be thrown away at the whim of a relatively small percentage of self-serving centre-dominating interests
Well, I actually have no quarrel with what Thongchai says in principle about people who experience the exact same things could still look at that same experience and those same things differently, and thus ‘report’ / relate them differently. That’s just normal, isn’t it? But then he writes:
Yet, what they told me are so different from Somsak in regard to 1) the leadership and its relationship to their organized supporters and to their “mass”; 2) the relationship with Seh Dang and the MiB issue.
Since he says not a single word how what he was told are “so different” from my version/interpretation of those issues, I have to throw up my arms in despair. I wonder why he doesn’t enlighten us a bit, especially regarding the key issue of my contention above, namely that leadership of the Red Shirts movement is in the hands of Thaksin-Phua Thai network?
I think that is just exactly what makes the Red propaganda so effective. If there were a different social problem (can’t think of anything at the moment…even though there are plenty) I am sure the UDD/Reds would use this social inequality and call for elections.
I still do not know how new elections will solve anything.
Des,
I heard the speech by Purcell in English and then the translation into Thai. What was being translated was not 100% the same as what Purcell was saying and this happens so, so often. I doubt Purcell realised what was happening.
LesAbbey #75
I was pointing that your personal experience might not be valid in this case. But my point seems to elude you.
From what I’ve seen & heard, of accounts of paid protesters, and unpaid ones seems to contradict what you’re saying. Not that my info is more trust worthy than yours, but in this twisted information flood, adding your personal bias won’t help much.
Prof Somsak, I think you saw Seh Daeng’s posts on Samesky, didn’t you? To me,he was a little loose in the head, and can’t be taken all that seriously. His webboard is even more bizarre, and most of his claims can’t be proven/or even possible.
Before anyone uses Seh Daeng’s claims as proof, keep that in mind, that it might not even be true.
IMO, I think Seh Daeng tried to muscled in to claim some part of the reds crowd for his political party. And thought that the crisis was a major chance for him to grab. Sadly, he didn’t walk away from it alive.
Been hearing stories lately that district authorities out in Xepon District are inventing new reasons to resettle communities who live in the area of the Lan Xang Minerals Ltd. project, away from their traditional village territories, even when the land clearing imperatives associated with the LXML mining operations do not actually require these communities to be relocated and resettled.
Can you confirm whether Lan Xang Minerals Ltd. is providing livelihood assistance to any ‘extra’ or ‘additional’ resettled communities in the area?
If so, is it the case that LXML is in fact helping to finance the Government of Laos’ resettlement policy in Xepon District, and in the process aiding and abetting unnecessary, involuntary, and unethical village evictions in Lao PDR?
That sounds a very generous sum to pay people from Klong Tooey. I’m pretty sure since lots of people there have absolutely nothing to do, you could get them for much lower than that. Who’s to say it didn’t happen? But why pay 5000 when you could get them for 1000.
Also, most of the people from the countryside might have been paid a stipend (I don’t know since no one’s actually seen money changing hands that I know of). But in follow up reports; we’ve seen the effort they’ve made to be able to get to the protests, selling things, neighbors helping them out with money (sending someone to represent them all and so fourth). They also think they’re campaigning for democracy, equal rights and justice, that surely counts for something?
Presumably Daeng Siam – I assume it’s against their principles – don’t pay people. If they capitalize and gain supporters now, does it become a bone fide class war, as they’re less involved with Thaksin?
I found this collection to be fascinating and beautiful! I would hope our museum director would be interested in pursuing this for an exhibit in the future! Thank you so much for sharing your collection with us.
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Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Speaking of financing political activities, it may be of interest to readers who seriously want to understand the present day politics to point out one of the reasons why recent years have not witnesses more political activity by students, as in the past. It’s simply because it cost a lot these days to organize one. A single evening rally (18.00-24.00) , as I already indicated, would put the cost into several ten thousands baht. And I’m speaking here of a VERY ‘bare-minimum’ rally, i.e. one without good, big sound system, without live video broadcasting, without hired tents (all these were of course features of the Red, as well as the Yellow, rallies).
Or, to give another example, it didn’t cost much to publish journal or magazine in the 1970s, so much so that the student movement those days were famous for publishing and distributing what was known as ‘One Baht Journal’ (р╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Зр╕кр╕╖р╕нр╣Ар╕ер╣Ир╕бр╕ер╕░р╕Ър╕▓р╕Ч), i.e. a journal sale for one baht each. These days to publish a single issue journal or a booklets would require several ten thousands baht at least.
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Suppose the rally in Bangkok were in fact the creation of Thaksin.
Then suppose that instead he had decided to keep “his” money in his pocket.
Then there would have been no rally.
Would there then have been no redshirts?
I say there certainly are now and would have been.
I say there were redshirts because
1. the government they elected was overthrown by the Thai military in 2006 and their rule continued then and until today.
I say there are redshirts becsuse
2. the government put in place by the coup has refused their call for elections, rules by the abrogation of law and by Thaksin’s Emergency Decree through out their 23 provinces in Thailand, and is seeking to permanently disenfranchise them to prevent their assuming sovereign power in future.
The redshirts, together with the armed minority’s opposition to the redshirt’s cause, is the driving force in Thai politics today and Thaksin, Newin, Sonthi, Abhisit and all the rest are seeking to ride the tiger in one way or the another for what they see as their own interests.
The redshirts have no friends among any of these, these are certainly not their leaders, and the sooner they realize that, the sooner they set about following the excellent example of groups like Hamas and Hezbollah in creating their own, democratic, non-governmental, government and nurturing it until it is of the size and strength to replace the “elite” government itself, the better.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
James – 82
Further up this thread you will find someone saying why would people take the chance on being killed for a few hundred Baht, while you are saying they are getting paid too much for taking that chance.
I will ask our messenger if he knows what was being offered out here in the suburbs. Three boys off his motorbike taxi stand went for just one day, but came back because they thought it was too dangerous.
If I remember correctly the boys on motorbikes did it for nothing in 92 just for a chance to have a pop at the police, hence some burnt out police stations and I suspect some of the missing bodies from that period.
Now just so words are not put into my mouth, as I’m accused of doing to others, I’m not saying that all participants were being paid large sums, or even that all of them were getting expenses. Some were doing it for belief that is was a fight for democracy. I suspect the proportion of these was higher than last year when it seemed to be just the small group of students and others from the original anti-coup movement that were the true believers.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Nganadeeleg – 84
Anyone else find the second last paragraph of the letter referred to in comment#61 interesting (and confusing)?
Yes it does seem a little strange. Maybe I will go with what Nick wrote further up.
Father Joe Meier is a friend of mine since many years. I haven’t read his letter yet. Nevertheless, Father Joe is an expert on all Klong Toey affairs, though not on the political movements of either Red or Yellow.
In fact maybe Nick could confirm whether the letter is real. If it is a fake it’s awful well done as it seems to capture the style very well. Not sure if even Notthenation could have done this one.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Nuomi – 80
If I have misunderstood you then I apologise again. I think you will find that Nick is a friend of Joe Maier so is capable of asking him which is why I posed the question. That for any reason I should not use the letter to confirm that some, (I accept your not everyone but that is a minor issue and not as important as you are trying to make out), participants were receiving quite large payments would be strange when it’s one of the few respected sources of news on this subject.
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Jim Taylor:
To argue that the Red Shirt movement is financed outside by Pheu Thai/Thaksin is ridiculous, naive and puerile. If Somsak had been watching the PTV live broadcasts he would see the fund raising activities (of which I, and tens of thousands like me, also contributed) and amounts collected…It sounds like a piece of fiction and spin from the likes of The Nation and ASTV (aka- government mouthpieces)!
Honestly this kind of ‘argument’ almost make me LoL (well, actually just smile). I don’t expect anyone to be so naive here.
– First of all, let me REPEAT again that I ABSOLUTELY have no problem with Thaksin network giving money to organize the rally. Jaran himself said so in the dying days of the rally, that money came from the like of Thaksin, Sudarat Keyuraphan, etc. So Jaran himself is “ridiculous, naive and puerile” too?
– About watching PTV. I’m almost certain that if there were ranking for those spending most time watching live (and taped) broadcast of Red rally, I must be up there among the top! In fact, I probably watched what’s on the Red stage more than a lot of people who attended the rally in person themselves (I sometimes went to the rally sites too). This is not strange as a lot of people just attended in person but hardly followed what’s going on the stage, I, on the other hand, have always been VERY interested in the contents, the styles , etc of the stages of political protests. So please don’t be that naive to site this against me.
– Now let me give some example about the financial logistics of organizing rally. A Red Shirt guard, according to a testimony to police and from what I heard myself, was paid daily expense around 500 Baht. Now if there were, say, 1000 guards. The total expense for guards in A SINGLE DAY ALONE would be half a million Baht! (You do the math for 2 months!) When there was sometimes announcement on stage that certain persons had generously given donation of 100 thousand Baht to the rally, the crowd usually went wild with loud applaud (as they should). I remember – do you? – an important case when last year, the name of Anuphong Phaujinda’s daughter (yes the Army’s Commander in Chief’s) was read on stage for giving a donation of 100 or 200 thousand baht to the rally. But what most people usually didn’t realize is that such ‘big’ donation would not even cover the cost of guards in a single day alone (not to mention many, many, many other expenses). And, as can be expected, there’re not that many donation with such large amount: usually each donation would be around 1000 baht or several thousand baht. Even MPs usually gave in tens thousands baht not hundreds thousand baht. (I mean what’s announced on stage, how much, if any, they gave unannounced cannot be ascertain.)
(There’re a lot of similar expenses like this. Say, petrol expense. As every knows, this rally moved a lot, in HUNDREDS of motorcycles, trucks, etc. The individual drivers didn’t get any money for driving around, but they were paid for petrol (not cheap these days!). I don’t have the number but can imagine one trips cost in hundreds of thousand of baht.)
So, Jim Taylor, who’re speaking ‘fiction, spin’ or “ridiculous, naive and puerile”? Actually if I were, so must be people like Jaran and a lot of observers. Sometimes the naivety of Red sympathizers (especially farang on this website) really astonish me, really. I AM one sympathizer too of course, but I’m also a realist and prefer realistic analysis to political point-scoring or propaganda.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
doyle2499 – 81
Now your are being very naughty nowhere did I say that Thais were not capable of protesting without being paid.
If I have put words into your mouth, then I apologise.
What I hoped to get across was that is not usual for participants in a political protest to get paid or receive expenses, even in Thailand. Sure receiving gifts for attending politician’s election rallies may have been a fact of life, (but that doesn’t make it less corrupt or now less illegal). This time we are not talking about an election rally though and it’s should be able to be compared with 92 or the 70s.
Thailand in crisis – ANU video series
Del – 36
. But the Aussie-expatriates I know who actually live in Bangkok are for the most part turned off by Thaksin S. politics, turned off by the Reds leadership and turned off by the incitement to Red violence. So makes me wonder why many NM readers appear so enamored of the Reds and Thaksin.
I think you shouldn’t make such a generalization statement, I know many expats who felt the opposite of you friend, does one person represent the whole population? of cause not, should you even be wondering about that?? you shouldn’t
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone (re-post)
@Muupan : Thank you for your opinion. That’s well presentation which can mislead many people but it’s everyone’s judgement to believe or not.
I found this as an unfair opinion. It seems that you are red shirt (UDD) or pro-Taksin. What you said is the same as what’s in red shirt media. I’ve read and seen both red shirts and public media.
I voted for Taksin party in the first election he won because I thought the rich should not be greedy but I was wrong. He did many corruptions for his own and his party benefit. He ignored the southern people and violence problem down south as he said he would help people who vote for him first and the terrorists who already killed thousands of people are not a big deal. His qoute was on media.
Why Khun Muupan didn’t say anything about the corruptions that Taksin did like he changed the laws so he could avoid income tax from selling his business to Temasek in Singapore for huge amount (76,000 MB). Also, he used his power as PM to help his wife winning the auction for land at Ratchada. He was found guilty by the court and then he escaped during the trip to see Olympics game in Beijing. Or you would say the court is injustice like the red shirt say. Every Thai people are under the same laws and same legal system. Taksin has chance to defend himself but he refused and avoid the same law as other Thai people.
You can’t deny that they are paid to be in the protest and only know that they want to bring Taksin back because he and his parties gave them money both on the elections and through national budget and he presented that he would help the poor in the provinces where he won the vote only.
I have friends and know people in provinces who were asked to join the protest with money offerred (Baht 500 per day for joining and Baht 2,000 for those who can make violence and destroy the things).
I don’t blame those poor people but to blame unpeaceful protesters. The peaceful protesters just hope that if Taksin is back, he can make their lifes better. And I hope that the present government considers this challenge and help poor people in sustainable way, not just give away money to them or through national budget to promote their popularity for the next election like Taksin and his parties did.
My friend in rich family who is well educated from US and support the red shirt said to me that the poor people have rights to take money and vote for those who give them money (what we call selling their votes) which is illegal to do. That scared me when people ignore the laws to get what they wants. However, I had pleasant discussion and share ideas with my friend who thinks differently.
I don’t mind if the budget is appropriately allocated to provinces more than Bangkok. At least the infrastructure and the education should be the same between the city and provinces but it’s not and it hasn’t been for long time ago. Taksin’s policy could not help either, his policies just made the province people feel that their lifes are better because they got money from Taksin. However, I admired him for introducing OTOP to help people selling and adding value to their products.
It’s time for people who have more chances to think about helping people with less chances. Also the present and the next governments (any parties) and all those politicians should concern and take sincere actions to ease the gap between the rich and the poor, the city and the provinces.
Our king has worked on helping the province people for over 60 years, for example, he tried to solve drought in north and north-eastern area with artificial rain and dam, spend his own money to help the farmers on research and increasing productivity and give scholarships and free doctor and dentist services in rural areas. He needs more supports from the government and responsible authorities to help poor people.
Those soldiers are from province same as the protesters too. I don’t think that they were greedy for blood and shooting innocent people. Moreover, any number of dead would not benefit the government at all. There are many warzones but the area in the news was the only area allowed life bullet. Friend of my friend is journalist from international media (RT) who was on duty there. He followed soldiers but didn’t see the soldiers shooting any innocent people to dead and no journalist complained about the censorships.
However, he and his journalist friends were shot by unknown snipers when they were on the motorbike to observe the warzone. He knows that they intended to shoot the journalists. He didn’t say that the snipers are from the government because they shot soldeirs and protesters too. He didn’t either say that the snipers were from the red shirts because he did not really know.
I thinks this is needed to be proofed but what I see now is the government and the opposite keep blaming and discredit each others both in and out of the parliament. I wish the politicians are more reliable and responsible than this.
I still see representatives who were leaders of the red shirts debated in the parliament using representative privilege. Now, they are still not in jail. So the government could not jail everyone who has relationships with the red shirts but only jail the leaders of red shirts who presented to cause the violence during the protest and those were jailed with court’s judgment. Now, I hope they will not escape and proof themselves in the legal process.
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Ben // Jun 8, 2010 at 5:33 pm – 36
Well, my earlier post get filtered out, I guess I was being too sarcastic so NM didn’t let it trough. Anyway, you misunderstand my point, I didn’t say that Abhisit should dissolve the house, I said that 1 month – 3 months house dissolution is a realistic offer, but I didn’t say that Abhisit has to yielded to the offer.
I’m not sure what you mean by a “proper democratic society”, but my idea of democracy is not only voting, representation, and getting things done.
Proper democratic society should have a following 5 criteria.
1 Right to vote
2 Freedom of speech and expression
3 Total sovereignty
4 Rule of Law
5 Power by the people
Thatland lacks almost all of that, except number 1 maybe. When you say “Everyone should be willing to have time on democracy’s side.” it just not going to fly like what you said since Abhisit did not become PM from general election but from power brokerage by the military and helps from Newin who switch side due to the fact that he’s being charge with the “rubber shoot” corruption charge. Switching side to Abhisit will guarantee him walking free. This is the not “time on democracy” that I want Thai people to be in.
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Thongchai is correct in his retort to Somsak. To argue that the Red Shirt movement is financed outside by Pheu Thai/Thaksin is ridiculous, naive and puerile. If Somsak had been watching the PTV live broadcasts he would see the fund raising activities (of which I, and tens of thousands like me, also contributed) and amounts collected…It sounds like a piece of fiction and spin from the likes of The Nation and ASTV (aka- government mouthpieces)! Somsak wants to be devil’s advocate but is standing on shifting sands. Had he been talking to Red Shirt protestors over the past four years he would know the fundamental reason why they are there and what motivates them to continue to protest despite personal hardships and loss of life. Dr Weng said to an interviewer from the ABC on this very question “was he paid by Thaksin” responding saying words to the effect “what price is human life?” – people were prepared to die Somsak not for some pathetic elitist liberal version of democracy: but basic rights, voice and political participation denied by your amaat friends. So what do these amaat want so badly that they are prepared to do anything, lie, cheat, and kill? They want a return to directed democracy at best, where right wing intellectuals, bureaucratic elites and aristocrats were to give direction and take control over what they saw as a runaway and misunderstood democracy (under Thaksin’s grassroot policies). But importantly, it entailed losing their personal benefits. They were prepared to take the country back more than fifty years to post-war authoritarian politics to achieve this end: to meet their own selfish needs. To many observers it was disappointing to see how some six years of economic growth and stability under Thaksin could be thrown away at the whim of a relatively small percentage of self-serving centre-dominating interests
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Anyone else find the second last paragraph of the letter referred to in comment#61 interesting (and confusing)?
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Thongchai #47
Well, I actually have no quarrel with what Thongchai says in principle about people who experience the exact same things could still look at that same experience and those same things differently, and thus ‘report’ / relate them differently. That’s just normal, isn’t it? But then he writes:
Yet, what they told me are so different from Somsak in regard to 1) the leadership and its relationship to their organized supporters and to their “mass”; 2) the relationship with Seh Dang and the MiB issue.
Since he says not a single word how what he was told are “so different” from my version/interpretation of those issues, I have to throw up my arms in despair. I wonder why he doesn’t enlighten us a bit, especially regarding the key issue of my contention above, namely that leadership of the Red Shirts movement is in the hands of Thaksin-Phua Thai network?
Olympic ambitions in Vientiane
Suppose that we’ll soon all see their ambitions in their deeds!=)
Hope they’ll be OK!
Thailand in crisis – ANU video series
Macca,
What is the point? The government is not stable?
I think that is just exactly what makes the Red propaganda so effective. If there were a different social problem (can’t think of anything at the moment…even though there are plenty) I am sure the UDD/Reds would use this social inequality and call for elections.
I still do not know how new elections will solve anything.
Des,
I heard the speech by Purcell in English and then the translation into Thai. What was being translated was not 100% the same as what Purcell was saying and this happens so, so often. I doubt Purcell realised what was happening.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
LesAbbey #75
I was pointing that your personal experience might not be valid in this case. But my point seems to elude you.
From what I’ve seen & heard, of accounts of paid protesters, and unpaid ones seems to contradict what you’re saying. Not that my info is more trust worthy than yours, but in this twisted information flood, adding your personal bias won’t help much.
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Prof Somsak, I think you saw Seh Daeng’s posts on Samesky, didn’t you? To me,he was a little loose in the head, and can’t be taken all that seriously. His webboard is even more bizarre, and most of his claims can’t be proven/or even possible.
Before anyone uses Seh Daeng’s claims as proof, keep that in mind, that it might not even be true.
IMO, I think Seh Daeng tried to muscled in to claim some part of the reds crowd for his political party. And thought that the crisis was a major chance for him to grab. Sadly, he didn’t walk away from it alive.
Lao development debates in the news
Richard:
Been hearing stories lately that district authorities out in Xepon District are inventing new reasons to resettle communities who live in the area of the Lan Xang Minerals Ltd. project, away from their traditional village territories, even when the land clearing imperatives associated with the LXML mining operations do not actually require these communities to be relocated and resettled.
Can you confirm whether Lan Xang Minerals Ltd. is providing livelihood assistance to any ‘extra’ or ‘additional’ resettled communities in the area?
If so, is it the case that LXML is in fact helping to finance the Government of Laos’ resettlement policy in Xepon District, and in the process aiding and abetting unnecessary, involuntary, and unethical village evictions in Lao PDR?
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
That sounds a very generous sum to pay people from Klong Tooey. I’m pretty sure since lots of people there have absolutely nothing to do, you could get them for much lower than that. Who’s to say it didn’t happen? But why pay 5000 when you could get them for 1000.
Also, most of the people from the countryside might have been paid a stipend (I don’t know since no one’s actually seen money changing hands that I know of). But in follow up reports; we’ve seen the effort they’ve made to be able to get to the protests, selling things, neighbors helping them out with money (sending someone to represent them all and so fourth). They also think they’re campaigning for democracy, equal rights and justice, that surely counts for something?
Presumably Daeng Siam – I assume it’s against their principles – don’t pay people. If they capitalize and gain supporters now, does it become a bone fide class war, as they’re less involved with Thaksin?
Collection seeks soul mate
I found this collection to be fascinating and beautiful! I would hope our museum director would be interested in pursuing this for an exhibit in the future! Thank you so much for sharing your collection with us.