Mart, I usually use the “translate” page on Google. Just type the URL you want into the box. That’s how I”ve been reading the Political Prisoners in Thailand blog, it seems to be CAPO-blocked all the time now.
Indeed, the protests would not have lasted as long as they did if the government had quickly capitulated to all of the demands of the red shirts, but just as no other country would have allowed demonstrations that were as disruptive and lengthy as the red shirt demonstrations, no other country would have allowed its government to be brought down by a mob. The prime minister was extremely accommodating and made a proposal that was acceptable to the moderate red shirt leaders. It was the small radical faction of the red shirts that forced the government to use force.
I do commend the red shirts for being a peaceful mob before April 10, but even at that date, the protests were a significant disruption to public order and trampled the rights of many others, and even though there was no actual violence, there was an underlying threat of violence. The red shirts were not going to leave unless forced to leave and had every intention of using violence to get their demands met. Some red shirt leaders may have worn Gandhi t-shirts, but they were not preaching non-violence in their daily diatribes against the government — quite the opposite.
Even after the government decided to disperse the mob, the government tried to use a non-violent strategy — isolate the mob and prevent fresh supplies and reinforcements from entering the protest zone. It was the red shirts that initiated the violence against the soldiers. By then, the events of April 10 had shown that the red shirts were willing to kill soldiers.
The government was absolutely justified in using force. I must admit, however, that I do not understand the strategy of using snipers or why there were so many head shots. Perhaps it was felt that more direct engagement would have resulted in even more casualties and violence.
Thanong Kanthong is no fool. You should really try to chat to him about his honest perspectives of the unmentionable family. Actually, details of such conversation amongst most Thai Hi-So would put even the most torrid British tabloid and paparazzi to shame.
But at the end of the day, one must understand that Thanong like most of the senior reporters and editors in The Nation hates Taksin with a passion beyond reason. It is not that they do not understand Law, fairness, justice, constitution, democracy etc. They do, and academically more than the average Thai. But they hated that man so much, it is for them “democratic” for a coup to throw out an alledged “most corrupted” government (as if it is OK to corrupt 5 baht and not 10 baht? – what’s the difference and how do one draw the line?). An editor in there said this: They could have chosen to be free-press journalist or hate Taksin beyond reason – and they chose knowingly to hate beyond reason and as such unwittingly or unwillingly become another tool to be used.
As a man and a father, he is very much like you and me, thinking carefully of how to raise his kids and giving his family the best he could.
Khun Thanong like all Thai educated English writer have a tendency towards extra flowery prose. I would have written that same slant very differently. The Nation needs new sub-editors.
Les Abbey (47, 54, 64). Picking a few scoundrels from one side or the other in Thai politics is a cheap shot. It stinks of hypocrisy when you are arguing the interest of the side that bought the favours of Newin, the biggest scoundrel of them all, as a price of parliamentary office. And when you argue the interest of the side that overthrew the Constitution that gave Thais their first real taste of democracy, you can hardly expect to be taken seriously when you puff yourself up and demand an apology.
There is one more factor to consider about the Klong Teoy slum – that slum is sitting atop a piece of prime Bangkok real estate.
Les:
I do not think that it is fair to drag Father Maier into this disagreement with Nick, asking Nick to judge whether Father Maier is telling the truth. This would be stooping too low – and doing exactly what the PAD did dragging the King’s name into their protest against Taksin – if you support Taksin then you do not love the King. Yet that is not mutually exclusive: we all know that anyone can like Taksin and love the King at the same time.
I believe it all depends on how “seriously” and “literally” one wants to take what Father Maier wrote. That obviously look like a typical mass-personal letter one would send without taking into very deep consideration how it would be used by the likes of various people of opposing views.
But if you choose to force the issue, then consider this:
Father Maier wrote:
“EVERYONE getting a daily stipend of anywhere from a thousand baht for people on foot, and three to four thousand baht for motorcycles for joining the rallies”
I know personally one person from that slum who did NOT receive that thousand baht stipend (and she has friends)… by dragging Father Maier so unfairly into this discussion and forcing Nick to judge on Father’s Maier honesty, you are forcing people to name an innocent man like Father Maier a “liar”. That is not fair on Father Maier, not fair on Nick who may not know Father Maier, not fair on the reader who happen to know a different set of people, and certainly beneath the dignity of one as educated as you to use such a cheap and divisive trick to force an opinion. Do not, by your ill-considered wording to push a point with Nick, make Father Maier a liar to strangers.
Let me end this by saying the following two things:
1) Thank you Father Maier for his hard work helping improve the lives of those in Klong Teoy Slum. I am glad to hear that you and your team survive fairly intact, and I will continue praying for the well-being of your team.
2) Thanks to the webmasters of New Mandala for setting up this site as a place for alternative opinion. Red leaning sites are rare as it is, and a reasonably open site like this one is an Oasis in the desert.
Dr. Terence Gomez’s research has contested the idea of the “Chinese Bamboo Network” and instead suggest that they do compete very ruthlessly among themselves as with anyone to ensure profits and control of business and markets. When they do cooperate, is not based entirely on ethnicity.
At a broader level, I would not want to see the Malaysians of Chinese descent valued entirely for their utilitarian function – which is what UMNO is doing now (as voters as business partners, etc) – but as citizens of Malaysia with their entrenched rights and responsibilities. Hence irrespective of whether Malaysians of Chinese descent are of use to gain markets and business in China, it should not matter.
On reforms gaining traction – yes, this is really my biggest disappointment with Najib. He should engage the opposition and Malaysians with his ideas and allow for debates. In fact that is how he should promote the NEM.
Instead, he has been focusing on “buying-in” strategy among key stakeholders with the PERKASA being the most potent. Ibrahim Ali of PERKASA was quoted as saying that one of the reason they reject the NEM is because “…some of the authors were non-Malays…”. How do you even begin to have an intelligent conversation with him?
meanwhile it was certainly no surprise to me that given:
– a promise from Abhisit of elections at some future date
– plus a roadmap that is essentially business as usual for the Democrats
– the fact that Abhisit is a puppet with powerful backers with a blemished history and known for their hatred of democracy
that the protesters had to have some guarantees of some good faith
they chose bringing Suthep into the legal system, and he tried a trick, so the govt bad faith was confirmed
and later when Sukhumhand had what he saw were frutiful discussions with the reds and Abhisit cut him off
and then the Senators tried to liaise and Abhisit ignored them
I think the reds were killed by the military snipers, presumably orders from the puppets controllers
I live in BKK and have a true connection. I suffer from website blockings on a daily basis. I am surprised by all the reports of using proxy servers to access blocked sites: all my attempts to access proxies (either directly or via FoxyProxy) have ended up on the beloved capothai warning page for at least a month. What am I doing wrong? Am I too stupid to use proxies? Can anyone here explain to me or post a link to a tutorial on how to use proxies from Thailand?
Thanks in advance from an angry westerner.
This year I suspect there is more to it than just support of Thaksin. There has been a year of propaganda in the northeast since last Songkram. You know of course of the pickups touring the villages up there with a massive campaign. The problem is that it looks like Thaksin is still calling the shots. Did Veera leave because of this?
Nick, I hate pinning you down like this but do you then accept Father Joe Maier’s statement as follows:
For most, all started rather jovial – everyone getting a daily stipend of anywhere from a thousand baht for people on foot, and three to four thousand baht for motorcycles for joining the rallies. A thousand baht is four to five days wages for unskilled labor here in the slums and a bit more in the provinces. But then if you joined the protesters, they took your photo, registered you. That was when it began to unravel.
If you do you can’t then compare it with strike pay in the west. As far as I know, even in Germany, you don’t get paid more for going on strike than you do for working. It never happened to me for sure. See if we knew that Arisman’s motorcycle supporters were earning three or four thousand Baht a day it would change many people’s opinion on why those boys followed him. So do you think Father Joe Maier telling the truth here Nick? For me I can’t really imagine him telling lies, he’s too close to being a saint.
BTW although I didn’t do it much Nick, I did visit the protest and I followed some of those boys on motorbikes when they were messing about on Asoke and Rachada, when they tried to burn down the SET building. I’m pretty sure we would find quite a few were out of Klong Toey on wages wouldn’t we?
Also, not arguing but questioning, do Bangkok Democrat supporters automatically become yellow shirts? You seem to imply the connection in Klong Toey. You may be correct, but checking if that’s what you meant.
So RN “your lot” includes Jon Fernquest and me. Is it an organization in your view? I wish I knew Jon Fernquest then it wouldn’t spoil it for you, but I don’t. Maybe you should ask him whether he likes Newin or not now. Still how about the others in “your lot”? Does it include Veera for example? Just an idea on what range of opinions you place in “your lot” would help. Do you have a list?
As for the moral high ground I suspect we would have trouble finding it in this current mess. The one thing I know for sure is it’s not where Chalerm will be if I get there, and it’s not a place Thaksin ever visited.
There was a question whether the Thai ambassador actually believed what he said or not. As with most politicians around the world, they are usually in the know about all things related to their situation, but they are free to interpret them as they see fit. Many choose to interpret them in a politically beneficial way.
In Thailand, there is little doubt as to what interpretation will further a person’s career–follow the govt line.
The elites(not a completely accurate name, but close enough) know that the last four elections have been won by Thaksin or his supporters, but they choose to ignore the fact that the first three were thrown out, overruled, or otherwise ignored. Only the last one did the election require a coalition govt (yes, that’s right, the first three were won by a clear majority). That was all the elites needed to seize the reins of power and have a modicum of legality.
The Malaysian Govt derives 40% of its revenue from Petroleum – royalties and contribution from Petronas (govt annual report – available from any book shop. and the NEM paper – available fr download)
Petronas was formed in 1974. Since then, the contribution from petroleum has been increasing, both from added production and higher prices. The govt did not use the opportunity to develop technical knowhow in Malaysia, choosing to do “rent seeking” (overused term) licencing activity instead. Only a small number of companies in Malaysia has tecnical capabilities to actually service the oil industry. Most of the work are sub – contracted out or held by agents of some foreign companies. Even though, it is written somewhere that tecnology transfer must be done, it is never taken seriously. It is not palatable to UMNO to allow the non-malays into the game. The bumiputras are having that so easy, that the necessity of acquiring technical knowledge is never seriously dealth with.
This is a serious lapse in strategic thinking. The opportunity to develop a class of technocrats went by the wayside. It is not too late though. The opportunity is still there to develop energy related technology on the back of the Petroleum industry – not just on the revenue.
Somehow, I do not think the BN govt, has the proper (without vested interest) advisors or implementers to approah the Petroleum or energy development technology in a holistic manner.
I do not “divorce” Thaksin from the Red Shirts at all – he is a very important symbol of the Red Shirts, allegedly a major financier (but by far not their only one), and most Red Shirts are Thaksin supporters (many though aren’t).
But neither do i follow the line that the Red Shirt movement is just Thaksin’s tool – this would be too simplistic in such a complex and multi-layered construct the Red Shirt movement is.
The notion that Thaksin was the one that single-handedly stopped the road map is pure speculation based on activist articles by Yoon etc., and the line of the government (which are not exactly unbiased in this issue). The reasons why the road map was in the end not accepted, or accepted too slowly with additional demands that the government in turn did not accept is far more complicated and involved both huge conflicts within the Red Shirt leadership council and protesters itself. The existence of these conflicts within the red Shirts alone is already proof of the fact that Thaksin is not their sole dominating voice. That is one of the reasons why long term on the ground level reporting is extremely important – only then you will be able to get those details. I will outline these details later on in my book on the events.
I am sorry that you prefer to follow the rather simplistic notions put in the air by “journalists” that have never worked on the ground, have never directly interviewed any of the Red Shirt leaders, and get their information on the Red Shirts only from their opponents.
I have read Father Joe’s letter. Yet i wonder about the relevance if it here in this discussion. Is it that some Red Shirts receive money? Yes we know that already. And as a comparison, so do almost all people in the west who do strikes, they receive money from the Union strike budget.
I can give you additional information on Klong Toey Slum: in the Slum you have many Yellow Shirt supporters as well, at least as many, if not more. Main reason of this is that many areas of the Slum are controlled by the Democrat Party, who also spend much money and effort on their support base there. Just walk through the Slums and you can easily see this when you watch the different posters of politicians. Many areas in Bangkok are like this. The area i live in is like this – the main godfather here is pro-Democrat, but at the same time you have a huge Red Shirt support base.
In areas such as these, people have to continue living together, and therefore have to learn to live with their different political views. Everybody knows about the other’s views, and therefore these topics are not too much discussed about by people with different views, not to have large conflicts that you easily get out of hand. Nevertheless, many families are split in between, and the does strain relationships tremendously.
LesAbbey (54). Jon Fernquest is the ally of yours on this site who has swallowed his former criticism of Newin. If you try to disown him as “one of your lot”, I doubt anybody here would believe you. My point is that your claim to the moral high ground is hollow.
It is surprising (well, actually not) that the editors at the BP would let an article like this through – very innaccurate, claiming to be a human rights analysis when it exhibits a fundamental lack of a basic knowledge of human rights and further is very biased and pro government.
Bloed mentions that the use of firemarms is not a human rights violation. It depends on what you use them for. How can a a sniper shot to the head of unarmed civilians be legitimate and ‘proportional’.
Why have similar domestic disturbances in hiistory (LA riots, the battle of Seattle, UK’s poll riots etc) never come near to producing 88 deaths? Perhaps the use of force was proportional in these cases.
A human rights principle is the rule of law. To shoot people before any procedure, to call them terrorists, without any legal process shows the government wanted to avoid human rights standards.
Without a doubt the reds overstetched their right to assemble to the limit, they were involved in numerous violations of public order. However, this should not be a death penalty, awared not by a judicial system but by a soldier, for these protestors
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Thai Embassy response to Hartcher
Clicked on the SMH article link just now – it’s blocked.
(using TOT ADSL)
Thailand in crisis – ANU video series
Del,
How do you know everyone here can’t vote? How do you know I cannot vote?
You know what they say about assumptions Del?
Never make assumptions, you make an ass out of you and me.
Latest polls suggest they are the minority. Most want to just get on with their lives.
Surely, it’s just a coincidence
Mart, I usually use the “translate” page on Google. Just type the URL you want into the box. That’s how I”ve been reading the Political Prisoners in Thailand blog, it seems to be CAPO-blocked all the time now.
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Mr. Wangudom,
Indeed, the protests would not have lasted as long as they did if the government had quickly capitulated to all of the demands of the red shirts, but just as no other country would have allowed demonstrations that were as disruptive and lengthy as the red shirt demonstrations, no other country would have allowed its government to be brought down by a mob. The prime minister was extremely accommodating and made a proposal that was acceptable to the moderate red shirt leaders. It was the small radical faction of the red shirts that forced the government to use force.
I do commend the red shirts for being a peaceful mob before April 10, but even at that date, the protests were a significant disruption to public order and trampled the rights of many others, and even though there was no actual violence, there was an underlying threat of violence. The red shirts were not going to leave unless forced to leave and had every intention of using violence to get their demands met. Some red shirt leaders may have worn Gandhi t-shirts, but they were not preaching non-violence in their daily diatribes against the government — quite the opposite.
Even after the government decided to disperse the mob, the government tried to use a non-violent strategy — isolate the mob and prevent fresh supplies and reinforcements from entering the protest zone. It was the red shirts that initiated the violence against the soldiers. By then, the events of April 10 had shown that the red shirts were willing to kill soldiers.
The government was absolutely justified in using force. I must admit, however, that I do not understand the strategy of using snipers or why there were so many head shots. Perhaps it was felt that more direct engagement would have resulted in even more casualties and violence.
Thanong on King Bhumibol
Thanong Kanthong is no fool. You should really try to chat to him about his honest perspectives of the unmentionable family. Actually, details of such conversation amongst most Thai Hi-So would put even the most torrid British tabloid and paparazzi to shame.
But at the end of the day, one must understand that Thanong like most of the senior reporters and editors in The Nation hates Taksin with a passion beyond reason. It is not that they do not understand Law, fairness, justice, constitution, democracy etc. They do, and academically more than the average Thai. But they hated that man so much, it is for them “democratic” for a coup to throw out an alledged “most corrupted” government (as if it is OK to corrupt 5 baht and not 10 baht? – what’s the difference and how do one draw the line?). An editor in there said this: They could have chosen to be free-press journalist or hate Taksin beyond reason – and they chose knowingly to hate beyond reason and as such unwittingly or unwillingly become another tool to be used.
As a man and a father, he is very much like you and me, thinking carefully of how to raise his kids and giving his family the best he could.
Khun Thanong like all Thai educated English writer have a tendency towards extra flowery prose. I would have written that same slant very differently. The Nation needs new sub-editors.
Thanong on King Bhumibol
I thought Thaksin had cancer…no, no, I thought he died,..no he wants to get rid of the monarchy…no, he wants to be king…. he got rich in office…
So much BS coming from this guy.
Verbal puke.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Les Abbey (47, 54, 64). Picking a few scoundrels from one side or the other in Thai politics is a cheap shot. It stinks of hypocrisy when you are arguing the interest of the side that bought the favours of Newin, the biggest scoundrel of them all, as a price of parliamentary office. And when you argue the interest of the side that overthrew the Constitution that gave Thais their first real taste of democracy, you can hardly expect to be taken seriously when you puff yourself up and demand an apology.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
There is one more factor to consider about the Klong Teoy slum – that slum is sitting atop a piece of prime Bangkok real estate.
Les:
I do not think that it is fair to drag Father Maier into this disagreement with Nick, asking Nick to judge whether Father Maier is telling the truth. This would be stooping too low – and doing exactly what the PAD did dragging the King’s name into their protest against Taksin – if you support Taksin then you do not love the King. Yet that is not mutually exclusive: we all know that anyone can like Taksin and love the King at the same time.
I believe it all depends on how “seriously” and “literally” one wants to take what Father Maier wrote. That obviously look like a typical mass-personal letter one would send without taking into very deep consideration how it would be used by the likes of various people of opposing views.
But if you choose to force the issue, then consider this:
Father Maier wrote:
“EVERYONE getting a daily stipend of anywhere from a thousand baht for people on foot, and three to four thousand baht for motorcycles for joining the rallies”
I know personally one person from that slum who did NOT receive that thousand baht stipend (and she has friends)… by dragging Father Maier so unfairly into this discussion and forcing Nick to judge on Father’s Maier honesty, you are forcing people to name an innocent man like Father Maier a “liar”. That is not fair on Father Maier, not fair on Nick who may not know Father Maier, not fair on the reader who happen to know a different set of people, and certainly beneath the dignity of one as educated as you to use such a cheap and divisive trick to force an opinion. Do not, by your ill-considered wording to push a point with Nick, make Father Maier a liar to strangers.
Let me end this by saying the following two things:
1) Thank you Father Maier for his hard work helping improve the lives of those in Klong Teoy Slum. I am glad to hear that you and your team survive fairly intact, and I will continue praying for the well-being of your team.
2) Thanks to the webmasters of New Mandala for setting up this site as a place for alternative opinion. Red leaning sites are rare as it is, and a reasonably open site like this one is an Oasis in the desert.
Najib – coming up to the half way mark of 2010
Hi Suzie and Neptunian,
On utilising the Chinese community in Malaysia.
Dr. Terence Gomez’s research has contested the idea of the “Chinese Bamboo Network” and instead suggest that they do compete very ruthlessly among themselves as with anyone to ensure profits and control of business and markets. When they do cooperate, is not based entirely on ethnicity.
At a broader level, I would not want to see the Malaysians of Chinese descent valued entirely for their utilitarian function – which is what UMNO is doing now (as voters as business partners, etc) – but as citizens of Malaysia with their entrenched rights and responsibilities. Hence irrespective of whether Malaysians of Chinese descent are of use to gain markets and business in China, it should not matter.
On reforms gaining traction – yes, this is really my biggest disappointment with Najib. He should engage the opposition and Malaysians with his ideas and allow for debates. In fact that is how he should promote the NEM.
Instead, he has been focusing on “buying-in” strategy among key stakeholders with the PERKASA being the most potent. Ibrahim Ali of PERKASA was quoted as saying that one of the reason they reject the NEM is because “…some of the authors were non-Malays…”. How do you even begin to have an intelligent conversation with him?
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
why did the protesters stay to the end?
meanwhile it was certainly no surprise to me that given:
– a promise from Abhisit of elections at some future date
– plus a roadmap that is essentially business as usual for the Democrats
– the fact that Abhisit is a puppet with powerful backers with a blemished history and known for their hatred of democracy
that the protesters had to have some guarantees of some good faith
they chose bringing Suthep into the legal system, and he tried a trick, so the govt bad faith was confirmed
and later when Sukhumhand had what he saw were frutiful discussions with the reds and Abhisit cut him off
and then the Senators tried to liaise and Abhisit ignored them
I think the reds were killed by the military snipers, presumably orders from the puppets controllers
Surely, it’s just a coincidence
I live in BKK and have a true connection. I suffer from website blockings on a daily basis. I am surprised by all the reports of using proxy servers to access blocked sites: all my attempts to access proxies (either directly or via FoxyProxy) have ended up on the beloved capothai warning page for at least a month. What am I doing wrong? Am I too stupid to use proxies? Can anyone here explain to me or post a link to a tutorial on how to use proxies from Thailand?
Thanks in advance from an angry westerner.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Nick Nostitz – 63
This year I suspect there is more to it than just support of Thaksin. There has been a year of propaganda in the northeast since last Songkram. You know of course of the pickups touring the villages up there with a massive campaign. The problem is that it looks like Thaksin is still calling the shots. Did Veera leave because of this?
Nick, I hate pinning you down like this but do you then accept Father Joe Maier’s statement as follows:
For most, all started rather jovial – everyone getting a daily stipend of anywhere from a thousand baht for people on foot, and three to four thousand baht for motorcycles for joining the rallies. A thousand baht is four to five days wages for unskilled labor here in the slums and a bit more in the provinces. But then if you joined the protesters, they took your photo, registered you. That was when it began to unravel.
If you do you can’t then compare it with strike pay in the west. As far as I know, even in Germany, you don’t get paid more for going on strike than you do for working. It never happened to me for sure. See if we knew that Arisman’s motorcycle supporters were earning three or four thousand Baht a day it would change many people’s opinion on why those boys followed him. So do you think Father Joe Maier telling the truth here Nick? For me I can’t really imagine him telling lies, he’s too close to being a saint.
BTW although I didn’t do it much Nick, I did visit the protest and I followed some of those boys on motorbikes when they were messing about on Asoke and Rachada, when they tried to burn down the SET building. I’m pretty sure we would find quite a few were out of Klong Toey on wages wouldn’t we?
Also, not arguing but questioning, do Bangkok Democrat supporters automatically become yellow shirts? You seem to imply the connection in Klong Toey. You may be correct, but checking if that’s what you meant.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
R. N. England – 62
If you try to disown him as “one of your lot”…
Too much to hope for an apology I knew.
So RN “your lot” includes Jon Fernquest and me. Is it an organization in your view? I wish I knew Jon Fernquest then it wouldn’t spoil it for you, but I don’t. Maybe you should ask him whether he likes Newin or not now. Still how about the others in “your lot”? Does it include Veera for example? Just an idea on what range of opinions you place in “your lot” would help. Do you have a list?
As for the moral high ground I suspect we would have trouble finding it in this current mess. The one thing I know for sure is it’s not where Chalerm will be if I get there, and it’s not a place Thaksin ever visited.
Thai Embassy response to Hartcher
There was a question whether the Thai ambassador actually believed what he said or not. As with most politicians around the world, they are usually in the know about all things related to their situation, but they are free to interpret them as they see fit. Many choose to interpret them in a politically beneficial way.
In Thailand, there is little doubt as to what interpretation will further a person’s career–follow the govt line.
The elites(not a completely accurate name, but close enough) know that the last four elections have been won by Thaksin or his supporters, but they choose to ignore the fact that the first three were thrown out, overruled, or otherwise ignored. Only the last one did the election require a coalition govt (yes, that’s right, the first three were won by a clear majority). That was all the elites needed to seize the reins of power and have a modicum of legality.
Najib – coming up to the half way mark of 2010
The Malaysian Govt derives 40% of its revenue from Petroleum – royalties and contribution from Petronas (govt annual report – available from any book shop. and the NEM paper – available fr download)
Petronas was formed in 1974. Since then, the contribution from petroleum has been increasing, both from added production and higher prices. The govt did not use the opportunity to develop technical knowhow in Malaysia, choosing to do “rent seeking” (overused term) licencing activity instead. Only a small number of companies in Malaysia has tecnical capabilities to actually service the oil industry. Most of the work are sub – contracted out or held by agents of some foreign companies. Even though, it is written somewhere that tecnology transfer must be done, it is never taken seriously. It is not palatable to UMNO to allow the non-malays into the game. The bumiputras are having that so easy, that the necessity of acquiring technical knowledge is never seriously dealth with.
This is a serious lapse in strategic thinking. The opportunity to develop a class of technocrats went by the wayside. It is not too late though. The opportunity is still there to develop energy related technology on the back of the Petroleum industry – not just on the revenue.
Somehow, I do not think the BN govt, has the proper (without vested interest) advisors or implementers to approah the Petroleum or energy development technology in a holistic manner.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
“LesAbbey”:
I do not “divorce” Thaksin from the Red Shirts at all – he is a very important symbol of the Red Shirts, allegedly a major financier (but by far not their only one), and most Red Shirts are Thaksin supporters (many though aren’t).
But neither do i follow the line that the Red Shirt movement is just Thaksin’s tool – this would be too simplistic in such a complex and multi-layered construct the Red Shirt movement is.
The notion that Thaksin was the one that single-handedly stopped the road map is pure speculation based on activist articles by Yoon etc., and the line of the government (which are not exactly unbiased in this issue). The reasons why the road map was in the end not accepted, or accepted too slowly with additional demands that the government in turn did not accept is far more complicated and involved both huge conflicts within the Red Shirt leadership council and protesters itself. The existence of these conflicts within the red Shirts alone is already proof of the fact that Thaksin is not their sole dominating voice. That is one of the reasons why long term on the ground level reporting is extremely important – only then you will be able to get those details. I will outline these details later on in my book on the events.
I am sorry that you prefer to follow the rather simplistic notions put in the air by “journalists” that have never worked on the ground, have never directly interviewed any of the Red Shirt leaders, and get their information on the Red Shirts only from their opponents.
I have read Father Joe’s letter. Yet i wonder about the relevance if it here in this discussion. Is it that some Red Shirts receive money? Yes we know that already. And as a comparison, so do almost all people in the west who do strikes, they receive money from the Union strike budget.
I can give you additional information on Klong Toey Slum: in the Slum you have many Yellow Shirt supporters as well, at least as many, if not more. Main reason of this is that many areas of the Slum are controlled by the Democrat Party, who also spend much money and effort on their support base there. Just walk through the Slums and you can easily see this when you watch the different posters of politicians. Many areas in Bangkok are like this. The area i live in is like this – the main godfather here is pro-Democrat, but at the same time you have a huge Red Shirt support base.
In areas such as these, people have to continue living together, and therefore have to learn to live with their different political views. Everybody knows about the other’s views, and therefore these topics are not too much discussed about by people with different views, not to have large conflicts that you easily get out of hand. Nevertheless, many families are split in between, and the does strain relationships tremendously.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
LesAbbey (54). Jon Fernquest is the ally of yours on this site who has swallowed his former criticism of Newin. If you try to disown him as “one of your lot”, I doubt anybody here would believe you. My point is that your claim to the moral high ground is hollow.
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
[…] […]
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
It is surprising (well, actually not) that the editors at the BP would let an article like this through – very innaccurate, claiming to be a human rights analysis when it exhibits a fundamental lack of a basic knowledge of human rights and further is very biased and pro government.
Bloed mentions that the use of firemarms is not a human rights violation. It depends on what you use them for. How can a a sniper shot to the head of unarmed civilians be legitimate and ‘proportional’.
Why have similar domestic disturbances in hiistory (LA riots, the battle of Seattle, UK’s poll riots etc) never come near to producing 88 deaths? Perhaps the use of force was proportional in these cases.
A human rights principle is the rule of law. To shoot people before any procedure, to call them terrorists, without any legal process shows the government wanted to avoid human rights standards.
Without a doubt the reds overstetched their right to assemble to the limit, they were involved in numerous violations of public order. However, this should not be a death penalty, awared not by a judicial system but by a soldier, for these protestors
Violating human rights? Yes, indeed!
Khun Sawarin,
Thank you for correcting me.