You wanna see personality politics gone wild, look at the state of Tamil Nadu in India. Holy moly. (As a Californian, though, I guess I’m not one to talk…)
In the same vein, the coworker mentioned in my previous posts is pretty open about why she supports the Democrats: Abhisit is a dreamboat. You should have seen her on the day the PM came to visit our school and she got to shake his hand. (I asked if she got his number as well, and the answer was a mournful no.)
Sorry, may be you could exchange my first comment with this one:
I was shocked when I heard about Ronin “Snipers” from Des Ball. Didn’t he see the bullet damages at the buildings where the real snipers were hiding, caused very likely by the so called “Ronin fighters”? As you can see on videos and on the buildings, they were rather targeting Snipers who shot more than 11 unarmed protestors into the head and not doing the bloody work of the snipers themselves.
Sorry to say, he should have been more careful using the word sniper and also saying that the “army acted by large very professionally”. This might be the case technically spoken. But morally and ethically, shooting people on the street at sight is not at all “professional”. And holding a gun around a corner and shooting into that direction without knowing who is hiding there might be professional on a battlefield, but not inside a city in the own country …
“… in ways minimized fatalities” I heard, too. Again it might have been an appropriate description, BUT only if this had been a fight at the border against a foreign enemy envading the country. But “minimized fatalities” in order to disperse protestors would have afforded to strictly reduce the usage of weapons to clear cases of self-defence, but not shooting on people at sight who did not create any threat to the soldiers, as can be seen on numerous videos.
Glad that Dr. Ball described the Thai military as having done a professional job. I agree, and I was there firsthand on April 10 with the protesters as they breached the military lines several times. The soldiers stood their ground, then shot in the air (quite frightening), threw tear gas, and then retreated, only to become “captured” by the protesters. Anupong didn’t rush in. And the shooting by the soldiers was justified on April 10th because they were responding to a grenade, at night, after seeing several of their buddies get blown up. I would have done the same thing.
I’ve always felt bad that the red shirt leaders talked too much about military violence when they should have kept talking about democracy etc.
The failure of April 10th militarily was at the commander level where a small contingent of troops were simply posted on two streets with tens of thousands of protesters, with no clear objective. Talk about incompetent.
Their restraint was admirable when they could have come in and done a far sexier job of shooting and blowing up things.
And I say this as a certified red shirt sympathizer too…
It was heartbreaking to see these young soldiers and these red shirts facing each other. They looked very much the same to me. I’ve always felt that those who have died on both sides have been heroic.
Of course I’m not talking about the Ronin, just the rank and file.
Regarding the last point, the dominance of local phuak in other regions of Thailand is in fact clearer, because the picture is not as much blurred by the existence of a strong party loyalty. In the South, this can play out in national elections, but in local elections, people are loyal to different phuak.
By the way, do local, especially village-level, phuak play any role in the differential participation in rural development projects? Some time ago, Sopart pointed into this direction in a comparison of nine villages. See Soparth Pongquan. 1988. Participatory Development in Villages of Central Thailand: Nine Case Studies of Plan Making and Project Implementation. Bangkok, Thailand: Division of Human Settlements Development, Asian Institute of Technology. xxi+242 pp. (Studies on Human Settlements Development in Asia, HSD Research Report, 17).
All the best for your research, and hope to see your dissertation in he near future.
have you noticed that the indonesian military are famous for several massacres including especially in East Timor
and have you noticed that many people have demanded that the Indonesian military generals be brought to account
but strangely I have never heard of the Indonesian presidents being criticised or threatened for these actions even though they seem to have approved for example of trying to keep East Timor as an Indonesian territory
do you understand why most of the vocal Thais including yourself seem to not be concerned about prosecuting the military but are vehement in their attempts to prosecute Thaksin?
why do you call the killings political rather than criminal?
Tonle Sap is the biggest lake and the nice place in Cambodia. If the pollution continous, we may be lose Tonle Sap, place that serve Cambodian life. Everyone just think what’s happend when Tonle Sap pullute? How can people along Tonle Sap live?
From several comments I just want to add a bit more,
Is it possible that the Thais, like any other country, have people with conservative and liberal political leaning, much the same way with US’s mid-west and southern conservative against the West and North East liberal?
From history, the communist movement in Thailand during the 60s-70s gained most of it follower in the NE while the central were sticking with the old military regime and partial democracy during 1973-1876. Moving forward, the NE and N were most of the majority who try out the zero record and non-proven TRT party, while the south still decided to stick with the old Democrat party.
Could it be that people from the North represent the liberal force while Central and the South were represented by the conservative?
Professor Ball’s twin hypothesis on the killing of Seh Daeng coheres with what informed people here in Thailand think – that is, revenge for the April 10 killing of Somklao, which also played into govt / military strategy of defeating the Red Shirt armed elements through taking out their commanding officer.
My question is who ultimately lies behind the decision to take this action? That is, if we accept the ‘twin theory’ approach, we have to assume that Abhisit (amongst others) gave the go ahead to carry it out. But why then, do it in such utterly risky circumstances – ie within feet of the international media? A slight change in wind direction etc and the interviewer could have been the one dead. Was it that at this stage, journalists had become completely expendable? Or was it simply that Abhisit simply gave the political ok to move and then army order were something along the lines of take him out at the best opportunity, and this (with cameraman’s light shining in Seh Daeng’s face, clearly locating him) happened to be it?
And behind this even, do we assume that the ‘unnamed insitution’ would have been consulted and also given the green light? Does Des or anyone else know how military decisions of this magnitude are made – that is, how high up does the command structure go? All the way to the top?
So the New Mandala site is the breading ground for Red propaganda in English. Where conspiracies become fact and anything opposing these views gets red thumbs. The red thumbs should be representing a positive or “agreeable” comment based on the fact that most on here are Red supporters hooked on the romantic idea of the fight for the poor rural people of the third world. Where rose coloured glasses should be handed out with membership to the cause. A place where Western academics try to fit an ancient Eastern culture which has never been colonised by Westerners into another world which is being invaded by foreigners in the name of the Council of Foreign Relations, to be shown to the world as a place where the elite have slaves from the rural North and North East. A place where anywhere south of Bangkok no longer has a voice even though vote buying in the South is far, far lower than in the Romantic NE Isaan provinces.
Professor Desmond Ball is as impressive in video as in his books on the Thai military. They are published in Thailand by White Lotus if anyone wants them. But, did I hear it correctly? Did he say something about sniper killings during last year’s Songkram riots? As far as I know the 2 confirmed deaths and the other 2 deaths possibly connected to the protests were not sniper related. Apologies if I misheard.
This has to be the best posting I have ever seen at New Mandala.
Professor Desmond Ball’s comments on the shadowy world of Men in Black, former soldiers and policemen for hire and local militia is really the sort of issue that evades Thai media coverage unfortunately but is always there below the surface.
My questions to Dr. Marcus would have been:
1. about the role in military reform of a strong Indonesian executive with a five year term vis-a-vis the weak typically short-tenure of Thai Prime Ministers (unfortunately, the idea of a “president” has been a little bit of a taboo subject in Thailand), and also:
2. whether vis-a-vis post-Suharto Indonesian leaders Thaksin’s particular personalized and aggressive form of rule had a role in where Thai history has gone recently (e.g. installing family in key military and police positions, cultivating strong regional loyalties, redistributing rent seeking benefits in economy, populist political extremism as evidenced in the 2500+ extrajudicial killings of the “War on Drugs”).
Thank you very much for a fascinating article. This sounds like a great side topic for your research, if you want to pursue it further.
I also find the question of national v local politics really interesting, especially with regards to the extent that the PAD v UDD conflict will make national politics a greater concern than local politics and politicize Thai people to an unprecedented level. Has there ever been a clash between allegiances to the Democrats/PAD and the pak-puak network in Songkhla? I’m thinking in particular of any equivalent with the clash between the Democrats/PAD and the Khunpluem family in Chonburi.
Peter,
I don’t think personality politics or the lack political programs (the latter is a debatable point in the first place) is the most pressing problem in Thailand. Take any country in the world and you’ll find that people often vote because they “like” a certain person. Very few voters read detailed policy discussions or follow political debates that closely.
The problem is the extent to which Thai people feel they can affect a politician’s action. They often don’t ask enough questions of the politicians and don’t demand enough from then. In other words, it’s not about being attached to a person. It’s about selling their loyalty too cheaply, but then history has taught them not to expect too much.
The last few sentences that Dr. Marcus spoke were very important. If those elites in Thailand heard about these videos series, they should put those few sentences into consideration. No matter how great and powerful a man can be, they can never go against the power of nature. When the wind of changes blow heavily, nothing can stop it.
Ah yes… those “recent traveler’s ironic summaries”– where the (clearly male, Western) writer tries so desperately to differentiate his or herself from those ignorant ‘metrosexual male refugees from the West’ ; the ‘scraggly Western NGO guys’; or the ‘relationship-seeking backpackers wearing organic sandals’.
Quite a genre in itself no?
Go back to your Holden Caulfield… such puerile, faux sophisticate cynicism only betrays your own self-loathing.
Great comment. I was waiting from some insight from the Lao community level on this issue. I traveled through Laos extensively by bicycle in 2000 and noted the proliferation of Vietnamese labour involved in highway construction and other projects, and was surprised by the number of Chinese (both merchant class and developers) that seemed to be busy ‘developing’ northern towns like Muang Xai and Boten. Upon visiting again in 2009 I saw that the country has been transformed, and I suspect not for the better re: the common Lao or minority communities of Laos.
Not meaning to be controversial, but the railway issue brings to mind the railway link to Tibet and the influx of large numbers of Han Chinese into that country. Obviously the Lao situation is very different from the Tibetan, but I can’t help but imagine (if not notice) something of an ‘economic annexation’ in progress, for lack of a better term. Obviously the truth of the situation is far more complex, and as a non-resident of Laos I can only understand so much, but I can’t help but feel for the Lao as they watch their country transform before their eyes and largely not be included in, or benefit from, this transformation.
I should note that I’ve never been an admirer of the rather bloated western NGO sector in Laos, of which Vientiane seems to be home sweet home, as the efficacy of their development strategies has quite obviously been hit and miss (largely miss in my opinion) whilst signs of NGO-sector-associated-affluence abound in that city, or the central district at least. The news of the That Luang wetlands agreement, however, made me sick to my stomach and I’m grateful for the efforts of many (usually smaller) NGOs in the area of environmental monitoring, education & protection in Laos.
Who knows, Laos’ “new era” of development might not be as tragic as I imagine it might be, but my thoughts always drift back to the happy simplicities & simple pleasures that I so often witnessed riding around on my push bike in the country ten years ago. I hope that the wonderful spirit of Laos will remain whilst the people see an improvement, however modest, in their standard of living and general circumstances. Long may the land of a million elephants live.
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Report from the South: From the day of Prong-Dong (Harmony) to the day of Prab-Pram (Suppression)
You wanna see personality politics gone wild, look at the state of Tamil Nadu in India. Holy moly. (As a Californian, though, I guess I’m not one to talk…)
In the same vein, the coworker mentioned in my previous posts is pretty open about why she supports the Democrats: Abhisit is a dreamboat. You should have seen her on the day the PM came to visit our school and she got to shake his hand. (I asked if she got his number as well, and the answer was a mournful no.)
Never underestimate charisma.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Sorry, may be you could exchange my first comment with this one:
I was shocked when I heard about Ronin “Snipers” from Des Ball. Didn’t he see the bullet damages at the buildings where the real snipers were hiding, caused very likely by the so called “Ronin fighters”? As you can see on videos and on the buildings, they were rather targeting Snipers who shot more than 11 unarmed protestors into the head and not doing the bloody work of the snipers themselves.
Sorry to say, he should have been more careful using the word sniper and also saying that the “army acted by large very professionally”. This might be the case technically spoken. But morally and ethically, shooting people on the street at sight is not at all “professional”. And holding a gun around a corner and shooting into that direction without knowing who is hiding there might be professional on a battlefield, but not inside a city in the own country …
“… in ways minimized fatalities” I heard, too. Again it might have been an appropriate description, BUT only if this had been a fight at the border against a foreign enemy envading the country. But “minimized fatalities” in order to disperse protestors would have afforded to strictly reduce the usage of weapons to clear cases of self-defence, but not shooting on people at sight who did not create any threat to the soldiers, as can be seen on numerous videos.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Glad that Dr. Ball described the Thai military as having done a professional job. I agree, and I was there firsthand on April 10 with the protesters as they breached the military lines several times. The soldiers stood their ground, then shot in the air (quite frightening), threw tear gas, and then retreated, only to become “captured” by the protesters. Anupong didn’t rush in. And the shooting by the soldiers was justified on April 10th because they were responding to a grenade, at night, after seeing several of their buddies get blown up. I would have done the same thing.
I’ve always felt bad that the red shirt leaders talked too much about military violence when they should have kept talking about democracy etc.
The failure of April 10th militarily was at the commander level where a small contingent of troops were simply posted on two streets with tens of thousands of protesters, with no clear objective. Talk about incompetent.
Their restraint was admirable when they could have come in and done a far sexier job of shooting and blowing up things.
And I say this as a certified red shirt sympathizer too…
It was heartbreaking to see these young soldiers and these red shirts facing each other. They looked very much the same to me. I’ve always felt that those who have died on both sides have been heroic.
Of course I’m not talking about the Ronin, just the rank and file.
Report from the South: From the day of Prong-Dong (Harmony) to the day of Prab-Pram (Suppression)
Khun Thorn:
Thanks very much for your additional information.
Regarding the last point, the dominance of local phuak in other regions of Thailand is in fact clearer, because the picture is not as much blurred by the existence of a strong party loyalty. In the South, this can play out in national elections, but in local elections, people are loyal to different phuak.
By the way, do local, especially village-level, phuak play any role in the differential participation in rural development projects? Some time ago, Sopart pointed into this direction in a comparison of nine villages. See Soparth Pongquan. 1988. Participatory Development in Villages of Central Thailand: Nine Case Studies of Plan Making and Project Implementation. Bangkok, Thailand: Division of Human Settlements Development, Asian Institute of Technology. xxi+242 pp. (Studies on Human Settlements Development in Asia, HSD Research Report, 17).
All the best for your research, and hope to see your dissertation in he near future.
Thailand in crisis – ANU video series
BillyD
still waiting to see any confirmation of this Asia Times story
the issue is that Asia Times is an international arm of Sondhi Lims ASTV/Manager group
Sondhi would be highly motivated to further the MIB story so I am sorry will only believe if there is some solid corroboration
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
jonfernqest,
have you noticed that the indonesian military are famous for several massacres including especially in East Timor
and have you noticed that many people have demanded that the Indonesian military generals be brought to account
but strangely I have never heard of the Indonesian presidents being criticised or threatened for these actions even though they seem to have approved for example of trying to keep East Timor as an Indonesian territory
do you understand why most of the vocal Thais including yourself seem to not be concerned about prosecuting the military but are vehement in their attempts to prosecute Thaksin?
why do you call the killings political rather than criminal?
Sondhi – return parliamentary powers to the king
Thomas Hoy (c29)
I think you may find your answer here:
http://www.notthenation.com/pages/news/getnews.php?id=834
Dirty deals in Tonle Sap
Tonle Sap is the biggest lake and the nice place in Cambodia. If the pollution continous, we may be lose Tonle Sap, place that serve Cambodian life. Everyone just think what’s happend when Tonle Sap pullute? How can people along Tonle Sap live?
Report from the South: From the day of Prong-Dong (Harmony) to the day of Prab-Pram (Suppression)
From several comments I just want to add a bit more,
Is it possible that the Thais, like any other country, have people with conservative and liberal political leaning, much the same way with US’s mid-west and southern conservative against the West and North East liberal?
From history, the communist movement in Thailand during the 60s-70s gained most of it follower in the NE while the central were sticking with the old military regime and partial democracy during 1973-1876. Moving forward, the NE and N were most of the majority who try out the zero record and non-proven TRT party, while the south still decided to stick with the old Democrat party.
Could it be that people from the North represent the liberal force while Central and the South were represented by the conservative?
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Professor Ball’s twin hypothesis on the killing of Seh Daeng coheres with what informed people here in Thailand think – that is, revenge for the April 10 killing of Somklao, which also played into govt / military strategy of defeating the Red Shirt armed elements through taking out their commanding officer.
My question is who ultimately lies behind the decision to take this action? That is, if we accept the ‘twin theory’ approach, we have to assume that Abhisit (amongst others) gave the go ahead to carry it out. But why then, do it in such utterly risky circumstances – ie within feet of the international media? A slight change in wind direction etc and the interviewer could have been the one dead. Was it that at this stage, journalists had become completely expendable? Or was it simply that Abhisit simply gave the political ok to move and then army order were something along the lines of take him out at the best opportunity, and this (with cameraman’s light shining in Seh Daeng’s face, clearly locating him) happened to be it?
And behind this even, do we assume that the ‘unnamed insitution’ would have been consulted and also given the green light? Does Des or anyone else know how military decisions of this magnitude are made – that is, how high up does the command structure go? All the way to the top?
Thailand in crisis – ANU video series
So the New Mandala site is the breading ground for Red propaganda in English. Where conspiracies become fact and anything opposing these views gets red thumbs. The red thumbs should be representing a positive or “agreeable” comment based on the fact that most on here are Red supporters hooked on the romantic idea of the fight for the poor rural people of the third world. Where rose coloured glasses should be handed out with membership to the cause. A place where Western academics try to fit an ancient Eastern culture which has never been colonised by Westerners into another world which is being invaded by foreigners in the name of the Council of Foreign Relations, to be shown to the world as a place where the elite have slaves from the rural North and North East. A place where anywhere south of Bangkok no longer has a voice even though vote buying in the South is far, far lower than in the Romantic NE Isaan provinces.
I look forward to counting my little red thumbs.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Professor Desmond Ball is as impressive in video as in his books on the Thai military. They are published in Thailand by White Lotus if anyone wants them. But, did I hear it correctly? Did he say something about sniper killings during last year’s Songkram riots? As far as I know the 2 confirmed deaths and the other 2 deaths possibly connected to the protests were not sniper related. Apologies if I misheard.
Sondhi – return parliamentary powers to the king
Thomas Hoy
We can’t speak because we will go to jail.
Sondhi – return parliamentary powers to the king
Chris Beale @ 28: why do you say America abandoned Seni Pramoj during the Thammasat 1976 massacre?
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
This has to be the best posting I have ever seen at New Mandala.
Professor Desmond Ball’s comments on the shadowy world of Men in Black, former soldiers and policemen for hire and local militia is really the sort of issue that evades Thai media coverage unfortunately but is always there below the surface.
My questions to Dr. Marcus would have been:
1. about the role in military reform of a strong Indonesian executive with a five year term vis-a-vis the weak typically short-tenure of Thai Prime Ministers (unfortunately, the idea of a “president” has been a little bit of a taboo subject in Thailand), and also:
2. whether vis-a-vis post-Suharto Indonesian leaders Thaksin’s particular personalized and aggressive form of rule had a role in where Thai history has gone recently (e.g. installing family in key military and police positions, cultivating strong regional loyalties, redistributing rent seeking benefits in economy, populist political extremism as evidenced in the 2500+ extrajudicial killings of the “War on Drugs”).
Report from the South: From the day of Prong-Dong (Harmony) to the day of Prab-Pram (Suppression)
Khun Thorn,
Thank you very much for a fascinating article. This sounds like a great side topic for your research, if you want to pursue it further.
I also find the question of national v local politics really interesting, especially with regards to the extent that the PAD v UDD conflict will make national politics a greater concern than local politics and politicize Thai people to an unprecedented level. Has there ever been a clash between allegiances to the Democrats/PAD and the pak-puak network in Songkhla? I’m thinking in particular of any equivalent with the clash between the Democrats/PAD and the Khunpluem family in Chonburi.
Peter,
I don’t think personality politics or the lack political programs (the latter is a debatable point in the first place) is the most pressing problem in Thailand. Take any country in the world and you’ll find that people often vote because they “like” a certain person. Very few voters read detailed policy discussions or follow political debates that closely.
The problem is the extent to which Thai people feel they can affect a politician’s action. They often don’t ask enough questions of the politicians and don’t demand enough from then. In other words, it’s not about being attached to a person. It’s about selling their loyalty too cheaply, but then history has taught them not to expect too much.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
The last few sentences that Dr. Marcus spoke were very important. If those elites in Thailand heard about these videos series, they should put those few sentences into consideration. No matter how great and powerful a man can be, they can never go against the power of nature. When the wind of changes blow heavily, nothing can stop it.
The Western aid sector in Laos – days numbered?
Re: Albert–
Ah yes… those “recent traveler’s ironic summaries”– where the (clearly male, Western) writer tries so desperately to differentiate his or herself from those ignorant ‘metrosexual male refugees from the West’ ; the ‘scraggly Western NGO guys’; or the ‘relationship-seeking backpackers wearing organic sandals’.
Quite a genre in itself no?
Go back to your Holden Caulfield… such puerile, faux sophisticate cynicism only betrays your own self-loathing.
The Western aid sector in Laos – days numbered?
@12 (Peta)
Great comment. I was waiting from some insight from the Lao community level on this issue. I traveled through Laos extensively by bicycle in 2000 and noted the proliferation of Vietnamese labour involved in highway construction and other projects, and was surprised by the number of Chinese (both merchant class and developers) that seemed to be busy ‘developing’ northern towns like Muang Xai and Boten. Upon visiting again in 2009 I saw that the country has been transformed, and I suspect not for the better re: the common Lao or minority communities of Laos.
Not meaning to be controversial, but the railway issue brings to mind the railway link to Tibet and the influx of large numbers of Han Chinese into that country. Obviously the Lao situation is very different from the Tibetan, but I can’t help but imagine (if not notice) something of an ‘economic annexation’ in progress, for lack of a better term. Obviously the truth of the situation is far more complex, and as a non-resident of Laos I can only understand so much, but I can’t help but feel for the Lao as they watch their country transform before their eyes and largely not be included in, or benefit from, this transformation.
I should note that I’ve never been an admirer of the rather bloated western NGO sector in Laos, of which Vientiane seems to be home sweet home, as the efficacy of their development strategies has quite obviously been hit and miss (largely miss in my opinion) whilst signs of NGO-sector-associated-affluence abound in that city, or the central district at least. The news of the That Luang wetlands agreement, however, made me sick to my stomach and I’m grateful for the efforts of many (usually smaller) NGOs in the area of environmental monitoring, education & protection in Laos.
Who knows, Laos’ “new era” of development might not be as tragic as I imagine it might be, but my thoughts always drift back to the happy simplicities & simple pleasures that I so often witnessed riding around on my push bike in the country ten years ago. I hope that the wonderful spirit of Laos will remain whilst the people see an improvement, however modest, in their standard of living and general circumstances. Long may the land of a million elephants live.
Report from the South: From the day of Prong-Dong (Harmony) to the day of Prab-Pram (Suppression)
Khun Thorn,
Something to keep in mind:
“All politics is local.” – Thomas Phillip “Tip” O’Neill, longtime Massachusetts Democratic Congressman and U.S. Speaker of the House.