Maratjp:
Thanks for your detailed exposition. I agree with you that Thailand and in particular Bangkok runs on rumour mills, and that to help those disadvantaged non-status quo population, one needs to rise about nit-picking to the larger issues of suppression, discrimination, and lack of democracy.
—
On the issue of Mtjp’s real life description of what happened, I believe he accurately described what he saw. And noted too, he said: “my background being a son of a career military man. When someone tells me, “Don’t go out there or you’re going to get shot,” I listen”
He was on one side while others like Nick was on the other side – what one saw and heard would have been different. mtjp heard a grenade go off and then army naturally respond (honestly if I was the soldier, I would have too) while I read another witness saw some men in black came in close to the reds and then fired in the direction of the army. I also know a friend there who angrily sob that no one was allowed to go and collect the injured and dead – the army shot any one who dared head towards the injured/dead even when waving a white cloth.
I think on such a discussion, one must take into account at which level one is talking about, and from which perspective. Tactical, strategic, or a personal on the ground level? All those require a different level of emotional response.
—
At the end of the day, one only has different perspectives from which to build a narrative one believes in.
For all it is worth, I believe there are no “hundreds of bodies” hidden by the army because I personally do not believe that high headcount is the objective of those in the planning room. This is not Suchinda 92. The plotting has become more sophisticated, and Thailand is no longer as “important” as it once was – all attention is on China now. Limited death would mean lesser international outrage. Lesser international outrage would mean ability to act afterwards with impunity. Limited deaths and constant gunfire would cause more fear and confusion and ultimately more out of control mob which will look bad on the Reds.
I personally find it ridiculous that anyone can claim the Thai army did a “good” and “restrained” job when a mob can run amok. I find it more ridiculous we are talking about the army when it should have been riot police. No, either:
1) the army did a good job that should have been done by the riot police, keep the crowd under control (which will mean more army men getting injured by an angry mob when they try to restrain those poeple using flex cuffs) and the razing of Bangkok did not occur. (Honestly, the Thai army had 2 months to plan for that evacuation and get all the needed buses and flex cuffs for transport) OR
2) the army did a bad riot police job. They failed to restrain the mob, instead angered them further firing rounds into the air and terrifying people mostly armed with slingshots and cooking up a storm. Despite their restraint and firing into the air, hundreds were injured and at the moment 88 known civilian casualties. Snipers that are supposed to shoot “armed terrorists” “accidentally” shot at least 5 unarmed civilian women before the storming of the barricade through the temple (head) and one known very gentle and kind hearted lady paramedic dressed in full paramedic gear just outside or near the doorway of a “wat”. I honestly cannot believe any well-trained and honest military man can tell me those six deaths were “mistakes” and the army were “showing restraint” in the tactical military sense. Yes, there was “restraint”, but for something else altogether.
At the end of the entire incident, the big issue is still: what is the army doing in the city? why is the government deploying army and tanks against its citizens? This is the job of the police, the riot police, period!
Chris Beale:
Red white and Blue is the color of the Thai national flag – should not a democracy fly the Thai national flag for unity?
It will be a sad day indeed if one can no longer stand tall and proud behind one’s national flag.
On your comment on Chulalongkorn: I believe only King Mongkut is deserving of the title ‘The Great” and with regard to King Chulalongkorn, well, one should really read some of those letters being exchanged between the various Thai princes and their friends in Europe during Chulalongkorn’s reign about that king before praising King Chulalongkorn. My take on Thai history is a little unorthodox and the questions I asked in class put left my grade just hovering above a pass. Still, amongst all my classmates, I was the only one to track down some of those letters. I love Thai history, and am saddened that most of the ruins of Ayuttaya is actually Chakri art and not Ayuttaya art. I do hope one day I can return to this study in Thailand without fear of prejudice.
Dear Colin #19,
For this particular post of yours, I believe the red thumbs will be for lack of content and for personal petty snide remarks.
While I do agree this site is “Red” leaning, but there are a number of very legit and well-written Anti-Red posts that gets many green thumb-ups far exceeding the red. However, Anti-Red posts that are a rehash of Nation’s or Manager’s articles generally gets high red scores. This is what makes New Mandala different from almost all t he yellow sites out there, which is almost impossible to conduct a reasoned discussion on because they drag Taksin and the need to defend the monarchy into any talk touching Thai Politics. Can’t even get to the policies.
So yes, I would love to discuss Yellow Politics, but so far found it impossible.
—
At the end of the day, this is obviously a red-leaning site. So if one is not happy about it, or is anti-red, or is pro-yellow, or is pro-monarchy – why come here if one is not prepared to make a good argument for discussion? What is the point of grouching or make snide remarks on a group of people with obviously differing perspectives and then complain about the thumbs down?
I have personally given green thumb ups to a number of not-red posts that are well presented and argued. And from what I have seen, many others do too.
The soldiers came to the flyover at Victory Monument/Ratchwatii to basically stop the looting/mob violence that could have spread. This of course is my assumption of what the gov’t was thinking. The fire engines were not there for a while. It was simply, get over there and stop that mob. Plain and simple. Shut off electricity and shut the entire street down on threat of being shot. Get the area under control.
That was Ratchwatii. Ratchaprarop was a bit different and that street was cat and mouse for days with soldiers shooting behind sandbags from Soi Rangnam down to Din Daeng. There were also reports of sniper fire from protesters from this area although I never saw them. There was also an instance where soldiers left their sandbags (or more soldiers came) and went down the street to shoot across the street at protesters/journalists who had taken up a position down the street a bit.
Cowering in fear? Yes, if you were out on Ratchaprarop in a live fire zone, yes, you cowered. Away from that area you didn’t cower.
I don’t know what you’re getting at with this idea that soldiers waited to come after fires had begun to rage.
“…and why you were at dinner…” Very funny. I wasn’t at Ratchaprasong at that time so I don’t know what the soldiers did as they approached the stage. I don’t know who shot at these people in this Wat. But it doesn’t seem consistent with the behavior of the soldiers that I saw who basically shot at protesters who were on streets that the soldiers made clear to stay away from. Protesters would light tires and roll them out etc and be shot at. I never witnessed or heard about people being picked off by snipers who were clearly not confrontational in an area that was not a “combat area.”
But this is my impression. I simply don’t know who shot those people in that Wat. Did the Ronin shoot them? Did the Ronin shoot from the Wat? Did a group of soldiers just decide to do this? If that was the case then that is a war crime.
I must admit that my defending the conduct of soldiers in this protest is quite ironic as I have been such a strident supporter of these red shirts who have come down to Bangkok to fight the system. So my comments here about the soldiers are about tactics, not political objectives. Standing back from it all I have always argued that it has been unjust that Abhisit sits where he is because political forces behind him circumvented elected governments, and these red shirts where basically slapped in the face by the government/military.
No one can say Samak is a good man. But at least he is his own man, with the guts to do what he feels he wants to do and the guts to say what he wants to say.
I never voted for that man, yet between him and Chuan, I would vote for him. I would vote for Chavalit, and I would vote for Banharn. I would never vote for Chuan. I am realistic, there is no such thing as a Mr. Clean in Thai Politics, and I rather vote for an own-man than a puppet-head. Choices in Thai politics are sadly limited and growing ever more limited.
In life, Samak has provided much comic relief to the sleaze of Thai politics. He is a personality – like him or hate him, he is at the end of the day, a person I give my grudging respect to even when as a person I still do not like him. He dared brought up a number of incidents the status quo and mainly the democrats would like to keep hushed under the carpet. May he rest in peace in death.
Superanonymous: I didn’t hear that one, but I would not be surprised. Sadly, every single Thai government I know is responsible for massacring somebody that is not the Bangkok status quo (Burmese, Laos, Muslims, Khmers, Hmongs, etc) I wished that would change, but I guess I can continue dreaming.
1. Maratjp/Des Ball: How do you account for the heavily onesided death toll as described in Doyles comment #20?
(were the ‘terrorists’ incompetent, or their number and potency greatly exagerated?)
2. Jim Taylor (or anyone): Can you provide a link to a video of the final speeches on the redshirt stage from May 19th?
“I never saw and evidence of a “massacre of innocent folk, criminality, and never saw soldiers and commandos enjoy their “killing spree” keeping “body counts.” I did see soldiers sit behind sandbags and shoot down mostly empty streets to control an area;”
it is my understanding that most of the dead and many injured are the result of shots from snipers and there are many reports of people cowering in fear of shots from overhead for all the days of the “dispersal”.
whereas you seem to not mention anything of the snipers or shots from overhead, except a reference to “soldiers on the flyover keeping control with recurrent M16 fire” after the dispersal and apparently after the fires were well underway.
your story does not seem to hang together
when you saw the soldiers on the flyover, what were the soldiers keeping under control? the fire engines, as alleged by some of the redshirts?
after arriving at the Rajaprasong rally stage area to turn off the camera and microphones left on when the protesters fled did the soldiers then perhaps also go home for dinner to allow their mates to make sure the fires had fully taken hold before returning for you to notice them?
and while you were at dinner, if they were not already up on the BTS tracks shooting at the War Pathum refuge, where were they and why?
Samak was always one of the guys we loved to hate, for as far back as I can remember. And with good reason. Funny, then, how what I will think about is his speech to the special session of Parliament in 2008 about the (would-be) police crackdown on the PAD after it took over Government House.
He scolded fellow legislators for slitting their own throats by approving of the PAD’s demands and methods, and more interestingly. exposed the hypocrisy of Democrat lawmakers who were whinging about violence.
Specifically, he mentioned how, during Chuan’s government, the Burmese God’s Army rebels who took over Ratchaburi Hospital were shot dead after capture or surrender. (I believe Samak may have been the only public figure to raise this issue.) It infuriated the Democrats, even the normally decent Sukhumbhand, but the vague account in The Nation doesn’t show that they rebutted the charge.
The army came in after the mob had thrown bricks/broken into buildings including Central 1. It was on fire. I went home and came out an hour or so later after nightfall and it was dark and Ratchwetii was barren and by then their were soldiers on the flyover keeping control with recurrent M16 fire. The army stay away from Victory Monument until then, or shall I say they controlled Phayatai up until the Victory Monument roundabout. Let’s not forget that all of this was happening as buildings throughout the city were burning. It was quite a spectacle, and in my own backyard…
The larger narrative is conveniently glossed over by Maratjp who must have been at a different place than me over the past two months or having a jaundiced view. The masses of documentation coming out (much of it deleted quickly by the repressive functions of the state) is enough to call attention to the crime committed by Abhisit against the people: including women, children and old folk. Have you seen the bodies? But they are only “baan nok” right? so they don’t matter? The larger narrative is the desparation of the despotic elites (amaat)- DP-Military alliance to make sure that electoral democracy will never happen again in Thailand. The experiment with grassroots democracy initiated under Thaksin based on the progressive 1997 People’s Constitution is dead in the water. I would suggest lifting your vision a few degrees to capture the “larger narrative” which you say I cannot see so that you can see the fiction created by a few to serve their own interests.
David: reference is Matichon Weekly (28 May, 2010 [2553], vol.1554, pp 16-17). Online version is more radical thatn the print version. But see Khaosod. They are even more emboldened!
Thailand runs on rumor and gossip. Hopefully we here at NM can rise above this. For the record, I never saw and evidence of a “massacre of innocent folk, criminality, and never saw soldiers and commandos enjoy their “killing spree” keeping “body counts.” I did see soldiers sit behind sandbags and shoot down mostly empty streets to control an area; I saw soldiers waiting around on streets; I saw soldiers stand ground then give way then give up; I saw soldiers simply wait around APCs on Dinsa. I also saw on video soldiers clashing with protesters and shooting protesters AFTER a grenade went off.
Your claims don’t add up from what I saw in person. You claim that “they were ordered to shoot any Red Shirt Guards, agitators, or leaders on sight” conflicts with the facts. It wouldn’t have been difficult to shoot any of the protesters or leaders for that matter if these were hardcore soldiers. But why so few deaths on the day of the crackdown? Shooting RS Guards? Agitators? On sight? This is ridiculous. The army never merely shot any of these protesters on sight from my accounts.
Is it plausible that generals were willing to advance their careers by being more aggressive? Yes. Is it plausible that Abhisit order a crackdown long before the actual crackdown came? Yes. Is it plausible that these soldiers were told that these protesters were terrorists who wanted to overthrow the monarchy? Yes.
But sorry, in eight weeks of circulating throughout these protests I never got a sense that these soldiers had their hearts behind shooting their fellow Thais. As I have always said, I was more intrigued by the reluctance to act more decisively sooner.
Soldiers were worried about someone throwing/shooting a grenade, hence the snipers.
For those of us here at NM who care about the larger issues of the silencing of the voices of these red shirt protesters, the throwing out of three elected governments, and the interference of the monarchy/military brass in subverting democracy would do better addressing these issues not indulging in rumor and gossip or embellishing events. The other side does this all the time. Let’s not lose sight of the larger narrative.
gosh, will Matichon survive after publishing that?
can you give us a reference to the article, please
meanwhile there is a strong story being put about by redshirtinternational.org that the royal princess visited the 11th Infantry at 4am May 19 and told the soldiers that the redshirts were a danger to the monarchy
they say there is a witchhunt for the leak of this top secret visit
Maratjp(#6)- As a witness, maybe you could write a bit more about what was happening where you were. What exactly was the army doing there in the first place? I have the impression unrest there began after the army came in. Why did they not secure the Victory Monument area, if that’s where the trouble was? Your testimony is valuable, please tell us more.
Des Ball cannot see a set-up which is what is happening right now as videos are doctored, cut and pasted, and others antistatist blocked left right and centre…to conclude from a position of distanced juxtaposition is ludicrous. The attempt to dehumanise the massacre and see it as a rational exercise of people control is equally pitiful and nazi-like in its ramifications. I wonder if NM will actually have someone on their pod broadcasts who was actually involved and know what they are talking about?
If anyone is interested here are the last moments recorded on PTV (24 hour coverage over period at Rajprasong) before Des’ highly trained and disciplined army pals moved in afternoon of 19 May 2010. It was clear that people were prepared to die and had taken the decision to act according to their own feelings. But core leader and MP Jatuporn Prompan in a tearful finale wanted to cease any more killing of the Red Shirts: “I know you are all beyond the fear of death. Today is surrender day, and I cannot stand to see people being killed anymore. Now we (core leaders) will go to the police headquarters and surrender (shouts from the people: ‘no, no, no’). It is painful for me to see you falling one by one in front of me…there will be more killed before the army reaches the stage…(tears falling from Jatuporn: protestors shout: ‘no, don’t cry!’)…We know you are bitter…people are dying…”
Colin(#19):Why shouldn’t you get a little red thumb for a useless comment like “So the New Mandala site is the breeding ground for Red propaganda in English.”? Re: the South, where I think we all agree there is less vote-buying — what is your point? Pattani, Yala and Narathiwat are happy, healthy and prosperous outposts of the Thai body politic? Methinks maybe your “place” stops somewhere south of Phuket.
While Marcus Mietzner advocates consolidation of democratic rule, Das Ball supports military consolidation… very disappointing!
The Thai military and the Thai monarchy hold absolute power in Thailand to the point that they had no fear to openly murder innocent people in front of the whole world. Using snipers shooting unarmed ordinary people is simple inhumane. It’s a criminal behavior that should not be tolerated. Matichon weekend said,”Aphisit’s regime campaigned that people come first, but in fact with Aphisit people died first.”
Here’s the Thai version of Jim Taylor’s translation.
р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕бр╕▓ р╕бр╕Хр╕┤р╕Кр╕Щр╕кр╕╕р╕Фр╕кр╕▒р╕Ыр╕Фр╕▓р╕лр╣М
Professor Balls has repeated the CRES line that their were, 500 armed dangerous terrorist waiting to do battle, a threat to the nation and monarchy, looking at the casualties this level of threat is not supported. 9 dead soldiers ( one being Sah Deang ) across the two months of protest.
Five of these soldiers died on the 10th April, one of them being colonel Romklao, Professor Balls seems to suggest that Romklao was shot by a sniper, this report from the Post.
“While they were discussing their plans, a smoke bomb was fired by an unknown attacker. Grenade attacks followed which took the life of Col Romklao, army chief Anupong Paojinda quoted Kukiart Srinaka, an officer with the division, as saying.
The smoke bomb was used to direct the grenade attack on the senior officers, Gen Anupong said yesterday.”
This fits with my recollection of news reports from the night the Colonel was targeted with a laser sight, and then a grenade was fired at him. I believe I am correct in stating that the other three soldiers who died that night, with another dieing two days later, were killed from injuries sustained in grenade attacks.
Also Professor Balls states their were Ronin snipers at work that night, if so why were they not shooting soldiers? This video tells a different story it shows a Ronin among the protesters shooting up at a sniper in a third floor window.
The premise that their were Ronin snipers on April 10 does not fit with the casualty figures, 20 dead protesters all from gunshot wounds, many of these being very accurate head shots, then 5 dead soldiers from shrapnel injuries.
Of the other 3 deaths of soldiers after April 10, Priv Nongrit sala killed by freindly fire on 28th April, Sgt. Phongchalit Thipayanontakan killed on 17th May also friendly fire, Sgt. Anusit Chansaento on 20th May whom I think was shot with his own weapon as seen in video from TNN.
This means that from 11 April to 19 May, a period which saw the most prolonged fighting, these Ronin killed no soldiers. Now there may be injured soldiers in hospital with wounds sustained in gun battles with Ronin, but if their were I am sure Suthep would be displaying photos of their gunshot wounds, so I take it from the silence that their are no soldiers with gunshot wounds.
There was of course a grenade attack on the 19th which injured a Canadian journalist, Chandler Vandergift along with 3 soldiers, which we can most probably attribute to the Ronin.
Maybe Professors Balls can explain to us how the 400-500 ” hunter killer soldiers” who have an ” unsavory reputation” and are aided by ” expert special forces from Lopburi” didn’t, apart from two grenade attacks on April 10, manage to kill any soldiers.
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Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Maratjp:
Thanks for your detailed exposition. I agree with you that Thailand and in particular Bangkok runs on rumour mills, and that to help those disadvantaged non-status quo population, one needs to rise about nit-picking to the larger issues of suppression, discrimination, and lack of democracy.
—
On the issue of Mtjp’s real life description of what happened, I believe he accurately described what he saw. And noted too, he said: “my background being a son of a career military man. When someone tells me, “Don’t go out there or you’re going to get shot,” I listen”
He was on one side while others like Nick was on the other side – what one saw and heard would have been different. mtjp heard a grenade go off and then army naturally respond (honestly if I was the soldier, I would have too) while I read another witness saw some men in black came in close to the reds and then fired in the direction of the army. I also know a friend there who angrily sob that no one was allowed to go and collect the injured and dead – the army shot any one who dared head towards the injured/dead even when waving a white cloth.
I think on such a discussion, one must take into account at which level one is talking about, and from which perspective. Tactical, strategic, or a personal on the ground level? All those require a different level of emotional response.
—
At the end of the day, one only has different perspectives from which to build a narrative one believes in.
For all it is worth, I believe there are no “hundreds of bodies” hidden by the army because I personally do not believe that high headcount is the objective of those in the planning room. This is not Suchinda 92. The plotting has become more sophisticated, and Thailand is no longer as “important” as it once was – all attention is on China now. Limited death would mean lesser international outrage. Lesser international outrage would mean ability to act afterwards with impunity. Limited deaths and constant gunfire would cause more fear and confusion and ultimately more out of control mob which will look bad on the Reds.
I personally find it ridiculous that anyone can claim the Thai army did a “good” and “restrained” job when a mob can run amok. I find it more ridiculous we are talking about the army when it should have been riot police. No, either:
1) the army did a good job that should have been done by the riot police, keep the crowd under control (which will mean more army men getting injured by an angry mob when they try to restrain those poeple using flex cuffs) and the razing of Bangkok did not occur. (Honestly, the Thai army had 2 months to plan for that evacuation and get all the needed buses and flex cuffs for transport) OR
2) the army did a bad riot police job. They failed to restrain the mob, instead angered them further firing rounds into the air and terrifying people mostly armed with slingshots and cooking up a storm. Despite their restraint and firing into the air, hundreds were injured and at the moment 88 known civilian casualties. Snipers that are supposed to shoot “armed terrorists” “accidentally” shot at least 5 unarmed civilian women before the storming of the barricade through the temple (head) and one known very gentle and kind hearted lady paramedic dressed in full paramedic gear just outside or near the doorway of a “wat”. I honestly cannot believe any well-trained and honest military man can tell me those six deaths were “mistakes” and the army were “showing restraint” in the tactical military sense. Yes, there was “restraint”, but for something else altogether.
At the end of the entire incident, the big issue is still: what is the army doing in the city? why is the government deploying army and tanks against its citizens? This is the job of the police, the riot police, period!
Thailand’s full-blown crisis of legitimacy
Chris Beale:
Red white and Blue is the color of the Thai national flag – should not a democracy fly the Thai national flag for unity?
It will be a sad day indeed if one can no longer stand tall and proud behind one’s national flag.
On your comment on Chulalongkorn: I believe only King Mongkut is deserving of the title ‘The Great” and with regard to King Chulalongkorn, well, one should really read some of those letters being exchanged between the various Thai princes and their friends in Europe during Chulalongkorn’s reign about that king before praising King Chulalongkorn. My take on Thai history is a little unorthodox and the questions I asked in class put left my grade just hovering above a pass. Still, amongst all my classmates, I was the only one to track down some of those letters. I love Thai history, and am saddened that most of the ruins of Ayuttaya is actually Chakri art and not Ayuttaya art. I do hope one day I can return to this study in Thailand without fear of prejudice.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
michael # 28, try this:
http://www.article2.org/pdf/v06n03.pdf
Thailand in crisis – ANU video series
Dear Colin #19,
For this particular post of yours, I believe the red thumbs will be for lack of content and for personal petty snide remarks.
While I do agree this site is “Red” leaning, but there are a number of very legit and well-written Anti-Red posts that gets many green thumb-ups far exceeding the red. However, Anti-Red posts that are a rehash of Nation’s or Manager’s articles generally gets high red scores. This is what makes New Mandala different from almost all t he yellow sites out there, which is almost impossible to conduct a reasoned discussion on because they drag Taksin and the need to defend the monarchy into any talk touching Thai Politics. Can’t even get to the policies.
So yes, I would love to discuss Yellow Politics, but so far found it impossible.
—
At the end of the day, this is obviously a red-leaning site. So if one is not happy about it, or is anti-red, or is pro-yellow, or is pro-monarchy – why come here if one is not prepared to make a good argument for discussion? What is the point of grouching or make snide remarks on a group of people with obviously differing perspectives and then complain about the thumbs down?
I have personally given green thumb ups to a number of not-red posts that are well presented and argued. And from what I have seen, many others do too.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
David Brown,
The soldiers came to the flyover at Victory Monument/Ratchwatii to basically stop the looting/mob violence that could have spread. This of course is my assumption of what the gov’t was thinking. The fire engines were not there for a while. It was simply, get over there and stop that mob. Plain and simple. Shut off electricity and shut the entire street down on threat of being shot. Get the area under control.
That was Ratchwatii. Ratchaprarop was a bit different and that street was cat and mouse for days with soldiers shooting behind sandbags from Soi Rangnam down to Din Daeng. There were also reports of sniper fire from protesters from this area although I never saw them. There was also an instance where soldiers left their sandbags (or more soldiers came) and went down the street to shoot across the street at protesters/journalists who had taken up a position down the street a bit.
Cowering in fear? Yes, if you were out on Ratchaprarop in a live fire zone, yes, you cowered. Away from that area you didn’t cower.
I don’t know what you’re getting at with this idea that soldiers waited to come after fires had begun to rage.
“…and why you were at dinner…” Very funny. I wasn’t at Ratchaprasong at that time so I don’t know what the soldiers did as they approached the stage. I don’t know who shot at these people in this Wat. But it doesn’t seem consistent with the behavior of the soldiers that I saw who basically shot at protesters who were on streets that the soldiers made clear to stay away from. Protesters would light tires and roll them out etc and be shot at. I never witnessed or heard about people being picked off by snipers who were clearly not confrontational in an area that was not a “combat area.”
But this is my impression. I simply don’t know who shot those people in that Wat. Did the Ronin shoot them? Did the Ronin shoot from the Wat? Did a group of soldiers just decide to do this? If that was the case then that is a war crime.
I must admit that my defending the conduct of soldiers in this protest is quite ironic as I have been such a strident supporter of these red shirts who have come down to Bangkok to fight the system. So my comments here about the soldiers are about tactics, not political objectives. Standing back from it all I have always argued that it has been unjust that Abhisit sits where he is because political forces behind him circumvented elected governments, and these red shirts where basically slapped in the face by the government/military.
Hero or villain? The life of Samak
No one can say Samak is a good man. But at least he is his own man, with the guts to do what he feels he wants to do and the guts to say what he wants to say.
I never voted for that man, yet between him and Chuan, I would vote for him. I would vote for Chavalit, and I would vote for Banharn. I would never vote for Chuan. I am realistic, there is no such thing as a Mr. Clean in Thai Politics, and I rather vote for an own-man than a puppet-head. Choices in Thai politics are sadly limited and growing ever more limited.
In life, Samak has provided much comic relief to the sleaze of Thai politics. He is a personality – like him or hate him, he is at the end of the day, a person I give my grudging respect to even when as a person I still do not like him. He dared brought up a number of incidents the status quo and mainly the democrats would like to keep hushed under the carpet. May he rest in peace in death.
Superanonymous: I didn’t hear that one, but I would not be surprised. Sadly, every single Thai government I know is responsible for massacring somebody that is not the Bangkok status quo (Burmese, Laos, Muslims, Khmers, Hmongs, etc) I wished that would change, but I guess I can continue dreaming.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Two questions:
1. Maratjp/Des Ball: How do you account for the heavily onesided death toll as described in Doyles comment #20?
(were the ‘terrorists’ incompetent, or their number and potency greatly exagerated?)
2. Jim Taylor (or anyone): Can you provide a link to a video of the final speeches on the redshirt stage from May 19th?
Thanks.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Maratjp,
“I never saw and evidence of a “massacre of innocent folk, criminality, and never saw soldiers and commandos enjoy their “killing spree” keeping “body counts.” I did see soldiers sit behind sandbags and shoot down mostly empty streets to control an area;”
it is my understanding that most of the dead and many injured are the result of shots from snipers and there are many reports of people cowering in fear of shots from overhead for all the days of the “dispersal”.
whereas you seem to not mention anything of the snipers or shots from overhead, except a reference to “soldiers on the flyover keeping control with recurrent M16 fire” after the dispersal and apparently after the fires were well underway.
your story does not seem to hang together
when you saw the soldiers on the flyover, what were the soldiers keeping under control? the fire engines, as alleged by some of the redshirts?
after arriving at the Rajaprasong rally stage area to turn off the camera and microphones left on when the protesters fled did the soldiers then perhaps also go home for dinner to allow their mates to make sure the fires had fully taken hold before returning for you to notice them?
and while you were at dinner, if they were not already up on the BTS tracks shooting at the War Pathum refuge, where were they and why?
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Does anyone have any information on the content of the illegal phone-tap tapes re. pre-trial conversation between former AMLO Sec-Gen., former Supreme Court Judge, & former Chief Appeals Court Judge? The tape is alleged to have been played at the Redshirt stage.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/38217/jatuporn-natthawut-in-court-over-illegal-telephone-tapping
Hero or villain? The life of Samak
Samak was always one of the guys we loved to hate, for as far back as I can remember. And with good reason. Funny, then, how what I will think about is his speech to the special session of Parliament in 2008 about the (would-be) police crackdown on the PAD after it took over Government House.
He scolded fellow legislators for slitting their own throats by approving of the PAD’s demands and methods, and more interestingly. exposed the hypocrisy of Democrat lawmakers who were whinging about violence.
Specifically, he mentioned how, during Chuan’s government, the Burmese God’s Army rebels who took over Ratchaburi Hospital were shot dead after capture or surrender. (I believe Samak may have been the only public figure to raise this issue.) It infuriated the Democrats, even the normally decent Sukhumbhand, but the vague account in The Nation doesn’t show that they rebutted the charge.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/read.php?newsid=30082110&keyword=Chuan+Leekpai
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Superanonymous 21,
The army came in after the mob had thrown bricks/broken into buildings including Central 1. It was on fire. I went home and came out an hour or so later after nightfall and it was dark and Ratchwetii was barren and by then their were soldiers on the flyover keeping control with recurrent M16 fire. The army stay away from Victory Monument until then, or shall I say they controlled Phayatai up until the Victory Monument roundabout. Let’s not forget that all of this was happening as buildings throughout the city were burning. It was quite a spectacle, and in my own backyard…
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
The larger narrative is conveniently glossed over by Maratjp who must have been at a different place than me over the past two months or having a jaundiced view. The masses of documentation coming out (much of it deleted quickly by the repressive functions of the state) is enough to call attention to the crime committed by Abhisit against the people: including women, children and old folk. Have you seen the bodies? But they are only “baan nok” right? so they don’t matter? The larger narrative is the desparation of the despotic elites (amaat)- DP-Military alliance to make sure that electoral democracy will never happen again in Thailand. The experiment with grassroots democracy initiated under Thaksin based on the progressive 1997 People’s Constitution is dead in the water. I would suggest lifting your vision a few degrees to capture the “larger narrative” which you say I cannot see so that you can see the fiction created by a few to serve their own interests.
David: reference is Matichon Weekly (28 May, 2010 [2553], vol.1554, pp 16-17). Online version is more radical thatn the print version. But see Khaosod. They are even more emboldened!
Hero or villain? The life of Samak
Final period of life, past PM Samak was peaceful. After the case was settled with cooking onTV ends.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Jim Taylor,
Thailand runs on rumor and gossip. Hopefully we here at NM can rise above this. For the record, I never saw and evidence of a “massacre of innocent folk, criminality, and never saw soldiers and commandos enjoy their “killing spree” keeping “body counts.” I did see soldiers sit behind sandbags and shoot down mostly empty streets to control an area; I saw soldiers waiting around on streets; I saw soldiers stand ground then give way then give up; I saw soldiers simply wait around APCs on Dinsa. I also saw on video soldiers clashing with protesters and shooting protesters AFTER a grenade went off.
Your claims don’t add up from what I saw in person. You claim that “they were ordered to shoot any Red Shirt Guards, agitators, or leaders on sight” conflicts with the facts. It wouldn’t have been difficult to shoot any of the protesters or leaders for that matter if these were hardcore soldiers. But why so few deaths on the day of the crackdown? Shooting RS Guards? Agitators? On sight? This is ridiculous. The army never merely shot any of these protesters on sight from my accounts.
Is it plausible that generals were willing to advance their careers by being more aggressive? Yes. Is it plausible that Abhisit order a crackdown long before the actual crackdown came? Yes. Is it plausible that these soldiers were told that these protesters were terrorists who wanted to overthrow the monarchy? Yes.
But sorry, in eight weeks of circulating throughout these protests I never got a sense that these soldiers had their hearts behind shooting their fellow Thais. As I have always said, I was more intrigued by the reluctance to act more decisively sooner.
Soldiers were worried about someone throwing/shooting a grenade, hence the snipers.
For those of us here at NM who care about the larger issues of the silencing of the voices of these red shirt protesters, the throwing out of three elected governments, and the interference of the monarchy/military brass in subverting democracy would do better addressing these issues not indulging in rumor and gossip or embellishing events. The other side does this all the time. Let’s not lose sight of the larger narrative.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Jim,
gosh, will Matichon survive after publishing that?
can you give us a reference to the article, please
meanwhile there is a strong story being put about by redshirtinternational.org that the royal princess visited the 11th Infantry at 4am May 19 and told the soldiers that the redshirts were a danger to the monarchy
they say there is a witchhunt for the leak of this top secret visit
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Maratjp(#6)- As a witness, maybe you could write a bit more about what was happening where you were. What exactly was the army doing there in the first place? I have the impression unrest there began after the army came in. Why did they not secure the Victory Monument area, if that’s where the trouble was? Your testimony is valuable, please tell us more.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Des Ball cannot see a set-up which is what is happening right now as videos are doctored, cut and pasted, and others antistatist blocked left right and centre…to conclude from a position of distanced juxtaposition is ludicrous. The attempt to dehumanise the massacre and see it as a rational exercise of people control is equally pitiful and nazi-like in its ramifications. I wonder if NM will actually have someone on their pod broadcasts who was actually involved and know what they are talking about?
If anyone is interested here are the last moments recorded on PTV (24 hour coverage over period at Rajprasong) before Des’ highly trained and disciplined army pals moved in afternoon of 19 May 2010. It was clear that people were prepared to die and had taken the decision to act according to their own feelings. But core leader and MP Jatuporn Prompan in a tearful finale wanted to cease any more killing of the Red Shirts: “I know you are all beyond the fear of death. Today is surrender day, and I cannot stand to see people being killed anymore. Now we (core leaders) will go to the police headquarters and surrender (shouts from the people: ‘no, no, no’). It is painful for me to see you falling one by one in front of me…there will be more killed before the army reaches the stage…(tears falling from Jatuporn: protestors shout: ‘no, don’t cry!’)…We know you are bitter…people are dying…”
Thailand in crisis – ANU video series
Colin(#19):Why shouldn’t you get a little red thumb for a useless comment like “So the New Mandala site is the breeding ground for Red propaganda in English.”? Re: the South, where I think we all agree there is less vote-buying — what is your point? Pattani, Yala and Narathiwat are happy, healthy and prosperous outposts of the Thai body politic? Methinks maybe your “place” stops somewhere south of Phuket.
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
While Marcus Mietzner advocates consolidation of democratic rule, Das Ball supports military consolidation… very disappointing!
The Thai military and the Thai monarchy hold absolute power in Thailand to the point that they had no fear to openly murder innocent people in front of the whole world. Using snipers shooting unarmed ordinary people is simple inhumane. It’s a criminal behavior that should not be tolerated. Matichon weekend said,”Aphisit’s regime campaigned that people come first, but in fact with Aphisit people died first.”
Here’s the Thai version of Jim Taylor’s translation.
р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕бр╕▓ р╕бр╕Хр╕┤р╕Кр╕Щр╕кр╕╕р╕Фр╕кр╕▒р╕Ыр╕Фр╕▓р╕лр╣М
р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Бр╕┤р╕Щр╕Др╕▓р╕Ф р╕Бр╣Зр╕Др╕╖р╕н р╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕нр╕ар╕┤р╕кр╕┤р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╣М р╣Ар╕зр╕Кр╕Кр╕▓р╕Кр╕╡р╕зр╕░ р╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕Бр╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕бр╕Щр╕Хр╕гр╕╡ р╕лр╕▒р╕Бр╕лр╕ер╕▒р╕З р╕Чр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Шр╕▓р╕Щр╕зр╕╕р╕Тр╕┤р╕кр╕ар╕▓р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Бр╕ер╕╕р╣Ир╕б р╕к.р╕з. р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕нр╕▓р╕кр╕▓р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Хр╕▒р╕зр╕Бр╕ер╕▓р╕Зр╣Ар╕Ир╕гр╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╣Бр╕Бр╕Щр╕Щр╕│ р╕Щр╕Ыр╕К. р╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕вр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕ер╕╕р╕вр╕Ыр╕гр╕▓р╕Ър╕бр╣Зр╕нр╕Ър╣Бр╕Фр╕З
р╕Бр╕ер╕▓р╕Зр╕Фр╕╢р╕Бр╕Др╕╖р╕Щр╕зр╕▒р╕Щ 18 р╕Юр╕др╕йр╕ар╕▓р╕Др╕б р╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕нр╕ар╕┤р╕кр╕┤р╕Чр╕Шр╕┤р╣Мр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Бр╕▓р╕ир╕Бр╕гр╣Йр╕▓р╕зр╕Бр╕ер╕▓р╕Зр╕зр╕Зр╕Вр╕╕р╕Щр╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Бр╕Хр╕Бр╣Бр╕вр╕Бр╕нр╕нр╕Бр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕кр╕нр╕Зр╕Эр╣Ир╕▓р╕в р╕зр╣Ир╕▓ “р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕Ир╕гр╕Ир╕▓р╕Ир╕Ър╣Др╕Ыр╕Щр╕▓р╕Щр╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕з” р╕нр╕▒р╕Щр╕лр╕бр╕▓р╕вр╕Цр╕╢р╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕Фр╕┤р╕Щр╕лр╕Щр╣Йр╕▓р╕вр╕╕р╕Чр╕Шр╕Бр╕▓р╕г “р╕вр╕╢р╕Фр╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕кр╕Зр╕Др╣М 53тА│ р╕Хр╕▓р╕бр╣Бр╕Ьр╕Щр╣Ар╕Фр╕┤р╕бр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕╖р╕нр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щр╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕ер╕▒р╕Ър╣Ж р╕бр╕▓р╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕з 2 р╕зр╕▒р╕Щ
р╣Бр╕бр╣Й р╕Вр╕╕р╕Щр╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╣Ир╕зр╕Щр╕лр╕Щр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╕нр╕вр╕▓р╕Бр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Щр╕│р╕ер╕нр╕Зр╕нр╕╡р╕Бр╕кр╕▒р╕Бр╕Др╕гр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Ар╕кр╕╡р╕вр╕лр╕ер╕▓р╕в р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕Ир╕гр╕Ир╕▓р╣Ар╕гр╕┤р╣Ир╕бр╕Хр╣Йр╕Щр╕Вр╕╢р╣Йр╕Щр╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╣Ар╕кр╕бр╕н р╕Вр╕Ур╕░р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕нр╕╡р╕Бр╕кр╣Ир╕зр╕Щр╕лр╕Щр╕╢р╣Ир╕З р╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕Хр╕╕р╣Йр╕Щр╣Гр╕лр╣Й р╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Щр╕│р╕Хр╕▒р╕Фр╕кр╕┤р╕Щр╣Гр╕И р╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕вр╣Ар╕Юр╕гр╕▓р╕░р╕Бр╕│р╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╣Бр╕Ьр╕Щр╕Чр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕лр╕бр╕Фр╕Юр╕гр╣Йр╕нр╕б 100% р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ир╕░р╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕Ыр╕Пр╕┤р╕Ър╕▒р╕Хр╕┤р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕з р╣Ар╕Юр╕гр╕▓р╕░р╕Цр╣Йр╕▓р╣Ар╕ер╕вр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Фр╕╡р╣Ар╕Фр╕вр╣М 19 р╕Юр╕др╕йр╕ар╕▓р╕Др╕б р╕нр╕нр╕Бр╣Др╕Ыр╕нр╕╡р╕Б р╕Бр╣Зр╕Ир╕░р╣Ар╕кр╕╡р╕вр╕Ир╕▒р╕Зр╕лр╕зр╕░
р╕Бр╕│р╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╕лр╕ер╕▒р╕Б 3 р╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Юр╕е
р╕Др╕╖р╕н р╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Юр╕ер╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕бр╣Йр╕▓р╕Чр╕╡р╣И 2 р╕гр╕▒р╕Бр╕йр╕▓р╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕нр╕Зр╕Др╣М (р╕Юр╕е.р╕б.2 р╕гр╕н.) р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ър╕Чр╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╕кр╕╕р╕Ф р╕Ър╕╕р╕Бр╕Хр╕░р╕ер╕╕р╕вр╕кр╕зр╕Щр╕ер╕╕р╕бр╕Юр╕┤р╕Щр╕╡ р╕Фр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕ир╕▓р╕ер╕▓р╣Бр╕Фр╕З р╕Лр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╣Ар╕Др╕вр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Рр╕▓р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕бр╕▒р╣Ир╕Щр╕Вр╕нр╕З р╣Ар╕кр╕Ш.р╣Бр╕Фр╕З р╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Юр╕ер╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕гр╕▓р╕Ър╕Чр╕╡р╣И 9 (р╕Юр╕е.р╕г.9) р╕Ър╕╕р╕Бр╕Фр╣Йр╕▓р╕Щр╣Ар╕Юр╕ер╕┤р╕Щр╕Ир╕┤р╕Х р╕Кр╕┤р╕Фр╕ер╕б р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Юр╕ер╕Чр╕╡р╣И 1 р╕гр╕▒р╕Бр╕йр╕▓р╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕нр╕Зр╕Др╣М (р╕Юр╕е.1 р╕гр╕н.) р╕Ър╕╕р╕Бр╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕Чр╕▓р╕Зр╕Ыр╕Чр╕╕р╕бр╕зр╕▒р╕Щ
р╕гр╕зр╕бр╕Цр╕╢р╕З р╕лр╕Щр╣Ир╕зр╕вр╕Ыр╕Пр╕┤р╕Ър╕▒р╕Хр╕┤р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Юр╕┤р╣Ар╕ир╕й р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╕Ър╕Юр╕┤р╣Ар╕ир╕й р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Др╕нр╕бр╕бр╕▓р╕Щр╣Вр╕Фр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕нр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕ир╣Вр╕вр╕Шр╕┤р╕Щ (р╕нр╕в.) р╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕▒р╕Юр╕нр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕и р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕кр╕▓р╕Щр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕гр╕Цр╣Др╕Яр╕ер╕нр╕вр╕Яр╣Йр╕▓р╕Ър╕╡р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ар╕нр╕кр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕лр╕вр╕╕р╕Фр╣Ар╕Фр╕┤р╕Щр╕гр╕Ц р╣Ар╕Юр╕гр╕▓р╕░р╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕З “р╕Ыр╕Пр╕┤р╕Ър╕▒р╕Хр╕┤ р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕ер╕нр╕вр╕Яр╣Йр╕▓” р╕Вр╕╢р╣Йр╕Щр╣Др╕Ыр╣Ар╕Фр╕┤р╕Щр╣Ар╕Чр╣Йр╕▓р╕Ър╕Щр╕гр╕▓р╕Зр╕гр╕Цр╣Др╕Яр╕Яр╣Йр╕▓р╣Ар╕Юр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Вр╕Ир╕бр╕Хр╕╡р╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕лр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╕Ир╕╕р╕Ф р╣Ар╕Юр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Ыр╕ер╕┤р╕Фр╕Кр╕╡р╕Юр╕Др╕Щр╕лр╕▒р╕зр╣Гр╕Ир╣Бр╕Фр╕З
“р╕Ьр╕бр╕Ир╕░р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Ар╕зр╕ер╕▓р╕Юр╕зр╕Бр╕бр╕▒р╕Щр╕нр╕╡р╕Бр╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕з”
р╕Др╕╖р╕нр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╣Вр╕вр╕Др╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Вр╕╕р╕Щ р╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕Др╕▓р╕Фр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Цр╕╢р╕Зр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Ир╕░р╕лр╕ер╕╕р╕Фр╕нр╕нр╕Бр╕бр╕▓р╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕Ыр╕▓р╕Бр╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Щр╕│р╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕Зр╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╕Фр╕▓р╕в р╕нр╕▒р╕Щр╕лр╕бр╕▓р╕вр╕Цр╕╢р╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Хр╕Бр╕ер╕Зр╣Гр╕Ир╕кр╣Ир╕Зр╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕Чр╕▒р╣Йр╕З 112 р╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕гр╣Йр╕нр╕в р╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╣Ар╕Бр╕╖р╕нр╕Ъ 2 р╕лр╕бр╕╖р╣Ир╕Щр╕Др╕Щ р╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕кр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Кр╕╕р╕бр╕Щр╕╕р╕б
р╣Вр╕Фр╕вр╕ер╕╖р╕бр╕Щр╕╢р╕Бр╣Др╕Ыр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╣Др╕нр╣Йр╣Ар╕кр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╣Бр╕Фр╕Зр╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╕лр╕▒р╕зр╣Гр╕Ир╣Бр╕Фр╕Зр╕Хр╕гр╕Зр╕лр╕Щр╣Йр╕▓ р╕бр╕▒р╕Щр╕Др╕╖р╕нр╕Др╕Щр╣Др╕Чр╕в р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕Чр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╕Юр╕зр╕Бр╣Ар╕Вр╕▓р╕Цр╕╣р╕Б “р╕Хр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╣Вр╕Ыр╕гр╣Бр╕Бр╕гр╕бр╣Гр╕кр╣Ир╕лр╕▒р╕з” р╣Др╕зр╣Йр╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕зр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╕бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Бр╣Ир╕нр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕гр╣Йр╕▓р╕в р╕Др╕┤р╕Фр╕ер╣Йр╕бр╕ер╣Йр╕▓р╕Зр╕кр╕Цр╕▓р╕Ър╕▒р╕Щ
р╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Бр╕┤р╕Щр╕Др╕▓р╕Фр╕Бр╣Зр╕Др╕╖р╕н р╕Зр╕▓р╕Щр╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╕кр╕│р╕лр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕г р╕кр╕│р╕лр╕гр╕▒р╕Ъ р╕ир╕нр╕Й. р╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕з р╕Цр╕╖р╕нр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ “р╕Хр╕▓р╕вр╕Щр╣Йр╕нр╕в” р╕Бр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Др╕▓р╕Ф р╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕бр╕▓р╕Ур╕Бр╕▓р╕г р╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╣Ир╕▓р╕Ир╕░р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕лр╕ер╕▒р╕Бр╕гр╣Йр╕нр╕в 200-300 р╕Др╕Щ р╕Ър╕▓р╕Фр╣Ар╕Ир╣Зр╕Ър╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Юр╕▒р╕Щ
р╕Ър╕┤р╣Кр╕Бр╕Хр╕╣р╣И р╕Юр╕е.р╕н.р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕вр╕╕р╕Чр╕Шр╣М р╕Ир╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕гр╣Мр╣Вр╕нр╕Кр╕▓ р╕гр╕нр╕З р╕Ьр╕Ъ.р╕Чр╕Ъ. р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Ър╕┤р╣Кр╕Бр╕лр╕Щр╕╕р╣Ир╕в р╕Юр╕е.р╕Ч.р╕Фр╕▓р╕зр╣Мр╕Юр╕Зр╕йр╣М р╕гр╕▒р╕Хр╕Щр╕кр╕╕р╕зр╕гр╕гр╕У р╕гр╕нр╕З р╣Ар╕кр╕Ш.р╕Чр╕Ъ. р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Бр╕бр╣Йр╕Ир╕░р╕Бр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Вр╕╕р╕Щр╕Юр╕ер╕бр╕╖р╕нр╣Ар╕Ыр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╕Щр╣Ар╕ер╕╖р╕нр╕Фр╣Др╕Ыр╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕з р╣Гр╕Щр╕Рр╕▓р╕Щр╕░р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕зр╕▓р╕Зр╣Бр╕Ьр╕Щр╕вр╕╕р╕Чр╕Шр╕Бр╕▓р╕г р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕кр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Чр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕лр╕бр╕Ф
р╕Чр╕▒р╣Йр╕З р╕Юр╕е.р╕Ч.р╣Вр╕Ыр╕Ор╕Б р╕Ър╕╕р╕Щр╕Щр╕▓р╕Д р╕Ьр╕Ъ.р╕Щр╕кр╕и. р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕кр╣Ир╕З р╕Йр╕Б.90 р╕Юр╕гр╣Йр╕нр╕бр╕Юр╕ер╣Бр╕бр╣Ир╕Щр╕Ыр╕╖р╕Щр╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╕кр╣Др╕Щр╣Ар╕Ыр╕нр╕гр╣Мр╕Щр╕▒р╕Ър╕гр╣Йр╕нр╕вр╕бр╕▓р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Юр╕гр╕░р╣Ар╕нр╕Бр╣Гр╕Щр╕вр╕╕р╕Чр╕Шр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Щр╕╡р╣Й р╣Бр╕Цр╕бр╕бр╕╡р╕Ьр╕ер╕Зр╕▓р╕Щ “р╣Вр╕Ър╕зр╣Мр╣Бр╕Фр╕З” р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И “р╕гр╕╣р╣Йр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щ” р╕нр╕╡р╕Бр╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕в р╣Бр╕бр╣Йр╣Бр╕Хр╣И 6 р╕ир╕Юр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕зр╕▒р╕Фр╕Ыр╕Чр╕╕р╕бр╕зр╕Щр╕▓р╕гр╕▓р╕б р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Бр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Хр╕гр╕▓р╕Ър╕▓р╕Ыр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Ър╕┤р╣Кр╕Бр╣Вр╕Кр╕в
р╕Ър╕┤р╣Кр╕Бр╣Ар╕Хр╣Ир╕▓ р╕Юр╕е.р╕Ч.р╕кр╕╕р╕гр╕ир╕▒р╕Бр╕Фр╕┤р╣М р╕Бр╕▓р╕Нр╕Ир╕Щр╕гр╕▒р╕Хр╕Щр╣М р╕Ьр╕К.р╣Ар╕кр╕Ш.р╕Чр╕Ъ. р╕Эр╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╕Бр╕┤р╕Ир╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Юр╕ер╣Ар╕гр╕╖р╕нр╕Щ (р╕Эр╕Бр╕г.) р╣Ар╕Хр╕гр╕╡р╕вр╕бр╕Вр╕╢р╣Йр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щ р╕гр╕нр╕З р╣Ар╕кр╕Ш.р╕Чр╕Ъ. р╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕вр╕Ьр╕ер╕Зр╕▓р╕Щр╕Фр╣Йр╕▓р╕Щр╕Ыр╕Пр╕┤р╕Ър╕▒р╕Хр╕┤р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ир╕┤р╕Хр╕зр╕┤р╕Чр╕вр╕▓ р╣Бр╕ер╕░ propaganda р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕кр╕Зр╕Др╕гр╕▓р╕бр╕Вр╣Ир╕▓р╕зр╕кр╕▓р╕гр╕Вр╣Ир╕▓р╕зр╕ер╕╖р╕н
р╣Ир╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Чр╕│р╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Кр╕Щр╣Ар╕Бр╕ер╕╡р╕вр╕Фр╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕г р╣Бр╕бр╣Йр╕Ир╕░р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Кр╕Щр╣Ар╕кр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╣Бр╕Фр╕З р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Др╕┤р╕Фр╕Хр╣Ир╕▓р╕З р╣Бр╕Цр╕бр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Др╕Щр╕кр╣Ир╕зр╕Щр╣Гр╕лр╕Нр╣Ир╣Гр╕Щр╕Юр╕╖р╣Йр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И р╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╣Бр╕Хр╕Бр╣Бр╕вр╕Бр╕вр╕┤р╣Ир╕Зр╕гр╣Йр╕▓р╕зр╕ер╕╢р╕Б
р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Щр╣Ир╕▓р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕лр╣Ир╕зр╕Зр╕Др╕╖р╕н р╕Др╕│р╕кр╕▒р╣Ир╕З р╕ир╕нр╕Й. р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╣Гр╕Щр╕Хр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕Ир╕▒р╕Зр╕лр╕зр╕▒р╕Фр╕Бр╕зр╕▓р╕Фр╕ер╣Йр╕▓р╕Зр╣Бр╕Бр╕Щр╕Щр╕│р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Др╕Щр╣Ар╕кр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╣Бр╕Фр╕З р╕Чр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╣Ар╕лр╕Щр╕╖р╕н р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╣Вр╕Фр╕вр╣Ар╕Йр╕Юр╕▓р╕░р╕нр╕╡р╕кр╕▓р╕Щ р╕Юр╕╖р╣Йр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И р╣Ар╕гр╕Фр╣Вр╕Лр╕Щ
р╕Чр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕Щр╕▒р╕Бр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Зр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╣Гр╕Щр╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕▓р╕И р╕Хр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕бр╕╡р╕гр╕▒р╕Зр╕кр╕╡р╕нр╕│р╕бр╕лр╕┤р╕Хр╣Бр╕Ьр╣Ир╕Лр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щ
р╕гр╕▒р╕Рр╕Ър╕▓р╕е р╕Ыр╕Кр╕Ы. р╕Ър╕▒р╕Зр╕Др╕▒р╕Ър╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕ир╕▒р╕Хр╕гр╕╣р╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕Кр╕▓р╕зр╕Ър╣Йр╕▓р╕Щр╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕Хр╣Ир╕нр╣Ар╕Щр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕З
р╣Гр╕Щр╕нр╕Щр╕▓р╕Др╕Хр╕нр╕▒р╕Щр╣Гр╕Бр╕ер╣Й р╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕гр╕Ир╕░р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕Зр╣Ар╕Др╕гр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Зр╣Бр╕Ър╕Ър╣Ар╕Фр╕┤р╕Щр╕Цр╕Щр╕Щр╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╣Ар╕Ыр╕ер╣Ир╕▓ р╕Чр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╣Гр╕Щр╕Бр╕гр╕╕р╕Зр╣Ар╕Чр╕Юр╕п р╕нр╕╡р╕кр╕▓р╕Щр╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╣Ар╕лр╕Щр╕╖р╕н р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Хр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕нр╕лр╕Щр╣Ир╕зр╕вр╕Чр╕лр╕▓р╕г р╕Ир╕░р╕Бр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Йр╕▓р╕лр╕бр╕▓р╕вр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Цр╕╣р╕Бр╣Вр╕Ир╕бр╕Хр╕╡ р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕зр╕┤р╕Щр╕▓р╕ир╕Бр╕гр╕гр╕б р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Хр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕Ир╕▓р╕Б 3 р╕Ир╕▒р╕Зр╕лр╕зр╕▒р╕Фр╕Кр╕▓р╕вр╣Бр╕Фр╕Щр╕ар╕▓р╕Др╣Гр╕Хр╣Й
р╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕Щр╕│р╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕лр╕вр╕╕р╕Фр╕гр╕▒р╕Зр╕кр╕╡р╕нр╕│р╕бр╕лр╕┤р╕Х
р╕Эр╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╕Бр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕▒р╕Юр╕Бр╣Зр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕лр╕вр╕╕р╕Фр╕Ър╕╣р╕гр╕Юр╕▓р╕вр╕▒р╕Др╕Жр╣Мр╕Др╕гр╕нр╕Зр╕нр╕│р╕Щр╕▓р╕И
р╣Др╕лр╕Щр╕Ър╕нр╕Бр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Кр╕Щр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕бр╕▓р╕Бр╣Ир╕нр╕Щ р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕Щр╕╡р╣И “р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╕Кр╕Щр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Хр╕▓р╕вр╕Бр╣Ир╕нр╕Щ”
Thailand in crisis – Episode 2
Professor Balls has repeated the CRES line that their were, 500 armed dangerous terrorist waiting to do battle, a threat to the nation and monarchy, looking at the casualties this level of threat is not supported. 9 dead soldiers ( one being Sah Deang ) across the two months of protest.
Five of these soldiers died on the 10th April, one of them being colonel Romklao, Professor Balls seems to suggest that Romklao was shot by a sniper, this report from the Post.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/36020/red-shirts-take-tiger-by-the-tail
“While they were discussing their plans, a smoke bomb was fired by an unknown attacker. Grenade attacks followed which took the life of Col Romklao, army chief Anupong Paojinda quoted Kukiart Srinaka, an officer with the division, as saying.
The smoke bomb was used to direct the grenade attack on the senior officers, Gen Anupong said yesterday.”
Also this report states a bomb blast
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/35979/proud-legacy-of-slain-army-hero-recalled
This fits with my recollection of news reports from the night the Colonel was targeted with a laser sight, and then a grenade was fired at him. I believe I am correct in stating that the other three soldiers who died that night, with another dieing two days later, were killed from injuries sustained in grenade attacks.
Also Professor Balls states their were Ronin snipers at work that night, if so why were they not shooting soldiers? This video tells a different story it shows a Ronin among the protesters shooting up at a sniper in a third floor window.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY7OafG9Src
The premise that their were Ronin snipers on April 10 does not fit with the casualty figures, 20 dead protesters all from gunshot wounds, many of these being very accurate head shots, then 5 dead soldiers from shrapnel injuries.
Of the other 3 deaths of soldiers after April 10, Priv Nongrit sala killed by freindly fire on 28th April, Sgt. Phongchalit Thipayanontakan killed on 17th May also friendly fire, Sgt. Anusit Chansaento on 20th May whom I think was shot with his own weapon as seen in video from TNN.
This means that from 11 April to 19 May, a period which saw the most prolonged fighting, these Ronin killed no soldiers. Now there may be injured soldiers in hospital with wounds sustained in gun battles with Ronin, but if their were I am sure Suthep would be displaying photos of their gunshot wounds, so I take it from the silence that their are no soldiers with gunshot wounds.
There was of course a grenade attack on the 19th which injured a Canadian journalist, Chandler Vandergift along with 3 soldiers, which we can most probably attribute to the Ronin.
Maybe Professors Balls can explain to us how the 400-500 ” hunter killer soldiers” who have an ” unsavory reputation” and are aided by ” expert special forces from Lopburi” didn’t, apart from two grenade attacks on April 10, manage to kill any soldiers.