BKKlawyer – as I understood it, Abhisit said that the November elections would go ahead if the roadmap with its 5 general conditions was not interrupted. Abhisit thus (ostensibly) viewed the November election date as dependent on the roadmap and not separate from it. Now if the actions of the UDD were meant to be irrelevant to the roadmap, why has the November date been affected?
Anyhow, this is all largely sophistic debate. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that the (lack of) success of the 5 general conditions was always going to be used as a get-out clause for holding elections in November.
For us foreigners living in Thailand it’s quite positive that the Abhisit government isn’t throwing out foreign newsmen, not even CNN’s 😉
This is unlike I suspect any the countries that border Thailand where I suspect the reception would be very different. (Please note those of you that compare Thailand with Burma.)
It’s also unlike the reaction Thaksin took to the FEER reporters isn’t it? Nick gets to talk with Abhisit, not something Thaksin would have encouraged I think.
Of course one could always look back to the burning of Central Chidlom…. was there any recent sex tape involving a general?
Ha-ha. One of the first uses of the internet in Thailand was spreading that video clip around. It’s a good Thai story but up to whether that was the reason for that fire, I’m not at all sure 😉
As with many other royalist academics or spokesman, pronouncements mentioning the king are not made without checking with the palace first. Would it be safe to assume that this is also now palace policy.”
I’m afraid Doyle probably has it right. This exercise is called ‘running it up the flagpole to see if it flutters’. The Palace is clearly wanting to guage public opinion on the matter.
Doyle carefully avoids saying that this exercise is on behalf of the King. It isn’t, he’s been sidelined. Nor even is it on behalf of the CP. It’s much, much worse than that.
It’s on behalf of the Queen. And that is a very serious problem.
Tim @ 20: House dissolution and a Nov. 14 election were always separate from the five points of the “roadmap”. The Bangkok Post article you cite is not specific on that, but it’s apparent from the article that by proceeding with the roadmap Abhisit was not including the Nov. 14 election. Look at any description of the five points in the roadmap and they do not include an election.
Nick Nostitz 228.
Then it’s warming to hear we have a democratic, considerate, tolerant & articulate PM like Abhisit in power, who is aware of such things.
(thanks for your previous clarification on the IMF / Japan question I posted elsewhere.)
You have made some excellent points with your above post.
Let’s face it, Thailand’s elite, whether monarchy, amart, military etc. etc. have been screwing Thailand and her people for years because they can.
And that ain’t going to change anytime soon.
Nuoma, re. your comment that Bangkokians are divided 50/50 over this situtation.
I think there is another dimension to this. Those people who just don’t care.
The other day, a small business owner in Silom was complaining on TV that Abhisit hadn’t done enough to compensate the money lost due to recent events.
A youngish guy bitterly complaining that a free 50k plus 1 mill. baht interest free loan wasn’t enough. No comments on the lives lost, the reasons why, the bigger picture. He just didn’t care.
No, just money and self. Odious and loathsome individual.
When you strip away the politics, the ideologies, the rhetoric and invenctive, is there anything left at the centre other than than money and self here?
If the answer is no, and I think it is, then is Thailand a morally hollow society?
Sonthi is not a monarchist. He did move into heavy “save the king” mode as a yellow shirt leader as a way to gain power for himself. He clearly thinks it is still useful for him. But he would drop this pretension is a second if the winds were to shift.
He is not thinking about what works for Thailand, how this would be implemented or anything else except the thrall it casts on his idiot followers.
Sondhi showed his acumen way back when by going into partnership with Thaksin and then getting ripped off. Later Sondhi also gives aid to Chalerm to pass on to his fugitive son hiding from murder charges. Sondhi is, in fact, good material for the PT party.
Andrew Walker’s simplistic presentation of the relative GINI coefficients of Thailand, Malaysia, the Philippines and Indonesia is baffling as an explanation of why Thai farmers are angry enough to get involved in an armed rebellion and attempt to burn down the capital, despite having done so much better over the last few decades as to be now labelled as “middle income peasants”. It is as if they were sitting around in the village seething about the fact that there is less income disparity in Indonesia, despite the fact that Indonesian farmers are actually much poorer than they are. This is superficial coffee table economics at its worst.
Interesting that Jim Taylor describes the Chirativat family as “amats”. Are they any more “amats” than Thaksin and other wealthy Sino-Thai business people that support the red shirts? I would have thought that Thaksin’s grandfather’s activities as a tax gatherer for the absolute monarchy more than qualified him as a Chinese wannabe “amat”.
Why don’t you start thinking? Or is that also a “waste of time?” It would be a pity IF you thought so. But IF you did, it might well lead to constructive results.
Portman, Stevenson might have no academic credibility, but of all the writers that we see on NM, he is the probably closest to the King and the royal circle.
If you take his claims and the words of those who he claims to have talked with with a grain of salt, you’ll get some very unique insight to the thinking of the palace.
Today Abhisit seemed to say that a November election was unviable – of course he blamed this delay on the UDD for not participating in the roadmap. This seems directly to contradict his words in early May where he said that he would go ahead with the roadmap, irrespective of the UDD’s participation. The Bangkok Post records that assertion here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/176901/pm-vows-to-go-ahead-with-roadmap. Further legitimacy and credibility problems for Khun Abhisit.
I am a Thai who appreciates NM’s articles -one like this article and also comments made by many of you e.g. Peter Boyles’s . In times of political crisis, we always appeciate NM as our friends. We need foreign friends who understand our situations and speak for us–as we cannot speak for ourselves. Our society is without freedom of speeches and expressions. We see our government becoming more and more brutal and oppressive if you are not agreeing with them. Channels of communication are shut down and political dissidents arrested. Very disappointing PM like Oxford-trained Abhisit!! We are in times of military dictatorship-like regime as in 1960’s, 1970’s and 1990’s despite material wealth and modernity. Why is that? The reds have the answers but they cannot say them. This is Thailand in 2010! This is the beginning to an end–I believe.
Lastly, thanks NM again for your understanding, coverage, friendships in times of need.
You said:
“I don’t think Nick’s presence or non-presence is of any consequence/importance to the prime minister at all. Do you?”
My presence yesterday was important enough for the Prime Minister to have, when the Q&A was finished, called me over to where he sat, and asked me where exactly i was during the incident at Rajaparop. I answered that i was one of the 11 who were stuck there for hours, an issue he was quite clearly aware off.
Furthermore, i initiated my question that i was aware off the existence of the so called “Black Shirts”, and will therefore not portray the Red Shirts as an entirely peaceful movement. But that, nevertheless, there were more than a few incidents where the military has broken their own rules of engagement and have initiated deadly fire (without warning shots) against unarmed protesters. I cited as a blatant example the one i got caught up in.
There is a whole lot more to be said, about the injured and killed EMS volunteers, and also about the issue of the “Black Shirts”, when the time is right, and investigations have been finished.
I do not put much trust though in the official investigating bodies that will perform the investigations – the National Human Rights Commission, and the National Anti Corruption Commission. Therefore i have asked to include, as we journalists were affected heavily as well, a to us acceptable representation in the investigation panel – a request that was flatly denied.
The “western press” reports what it sees, what it investigates, based on fact. It does not care one bit if some internet warriors or politicians mistakenly carry the believe that the “western press” would be “hopelessly (and condescendingly) pro-Red>pro-Thaksin”.
News is naturally limited as it has to give almost hourly reports during such massive events. If the government cannot give one single proof of its claims, for example of army only shooting at armed protesters, while the “western press” has filmed and photographed the opposite – that the army has shot on more than a few occasions exactly those unarmed protesters (and journalists) in front of hour eyes and cameras – then the “western press” has to report this, including showing the footage.
Nevertheless, there is not just the news business, there is also the much slower follow up. I will continue writing my books. And the third book (the second will come out soon) will also deal with the issue of the “Black Shirts”.
But be assured – you will mostly still not enjoy what i will have to say – as i follow fact, and not ideology or mistaken opinions based on insufficient understanding of facts. 😉
”Do you think those M79 grenade/RPG random attacks against Bangkok were ‘overblown bluster and bravado’ JohnH? Those were ‘full-blown’ grenade/RPG attacks, eh?”
No, I don’t, and I didn’t indicate that I did either.
By the way, M79 attacks by whom against whom?
Also, perhaps you can enlighten us why the General went to see Thaksin. If it was to plan a ”full blown civil war”, it wasn’t very well thought out, was it?
Maybe you can also explain why the Thai media is so anti poor or anti buffalo as the so called educated people refer to them.
Do you think that these pro red westerners who are guilty of of over simplifying the problems, are this way because of a lack of understanding of Thailand?
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Thailand’s full-blown crisis of legitimacy
BKKlawyer – as I understood it, Abhisit said that the November elections would go ahead if the roadmap with its 5 general conditions was not interrupted. Abhisit thus (ostensibly) viewed the November election date as dependent on the roadmap and not separate from it. Now if the actions of the UDD were meant to be irrelevant to the roadmap, why has the November date been affected?
Anyhow, this is all largely sophistic debate. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that the (lack of) success of the 5 general conditions was always going to be used as a get-out clause for holding elections in November.
Enemies, foreign and domestic
‘ . . . start thinking ?”
Why I never stopped Srithanonchai, funny you should ask.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Nick Nostitz – 228
For us foreigners living in Thailand it’s quite positive that the Abhisit government isn’t throwing out foreign newsmen, not even CNN’s 😉
This is unlike I suspect any the countries that border Thailand where I suspect the reception would be very different. (Please note those of you that compare Thailand with Burma.)
It’s also unlike the reaction Thaksin took to the FEER reporters isn’t it? Nick gets to talk with Abhisit, not something Thaksin would have encouraged I think.
Thailand in crisis – ANU video series
polo – 13
Of course one could always look back to the burning of Central Chidlom…. was there any recent sex tape involving a general?
Ha-ha. One of the first uses of the internet in Thailand was spreading that video clip around. It’s a good Thai story but up to whether that was the reason for that fire, I’m not at all sure 😉
Sondhi – return parliamentary powers to the king
“doyle2499 // May 30, 2010 at 6:20 pm
As with many other royalist academics or spokesman, pronouncements mentioning the king are not made without checking with the palace first. Would it be safe to assume that this is also now palace policy.”
I’m afraid Doyle probably has it right. This exercise is called ‘running it up the flagpole to see if it flutters’. The Palace is clearly wanting to guage public opinion on the matter.
Doyle carefully avoids saying that this exercise is on behalf of the King. It isn’t, he’s been sidelined. Nor even is it on behalf of the CP. It’s much, much worse than that.
It’s on behalf of the Queen. And that is a very serious problem.
Thailand’s full-blown crisis of legitimacy
Tim @ 20: House dissolution and a Nov. 14 election were always separate from the five points of the “roadmap”. The Bangkok Post article you cite is not specific on that, but it’s apparent from the article that by proceeding with the roadmap Abhisit was not including the Nov. 14 election. Look at any description of the five points in the roadmap and they do not include an election.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Nick Nostitz 228.
Then it’s warming to hear we have a democratic, considerate, tolerant & articulate PM like Abhisit in power, who is aware of such things.
Thailand’s full-blown crisis of legitimacy
Nuomi – 19
(thanks for your previous clarification on the IMF / Japan question I posted elsewhere.)
You have made some excellent points with your above post.
Let’s face it, Thailand’s elite, whether monarchy, amart, military etc. etc. have been screwing Thailand and her people for years because they can.
And that ain’t going to change anytime soon.
Nuoma, re. your comment that Bangkokians are divided 50/50 over this situtation.
I think there is another dimension to this. Those people who just don’t care.
The other day, a small business owner in Silom was complaining on TV that Abhisit hadn’t done enough to compensate the money lost due to recent events.
A youngish guy bitterly complaining that a free 50k plus 1 mill. baht interest free loan wasn’t enough. No comments on the lives lost, the reasons why, the bigger picture. He just didn’t care.
No, just money and self. Odious and loathsome individual.
When you strip away the politics, the ideologies, the rhetoric and invenctive, is there anything left at the centre other than than money and self here?
If the answer is no, and I think it is, then is Thailand a morally hollow society?
Sondhi – return parliamentary powers to the king
Sonthi is not a monarchist. He did move into heavy “save the king” mode as a yellow shirt leader as a way to gain power for himself. He clearly thinks it is still useful for him. But he would drop this pretension is a second if the winds were to shift.
He is not thinking about what works for Thailand, how this would be implemented or anything else except the thrall it casts on his idiot followers.
Sondhi – return parliamentary powers to the king
Sondhi showed his acumen way back when by going into partnership with Thaksin and then getting ripped off. Later Sondhi also gives aid to Chalerm to pass on to his fugitive son hiding from murder charges. Sondhi is, in fact, good material for the PT party.
Thailand in crisis – ANU video series
Andrew Walker’s simplistic presentation of the relative GINI coefficients of Thailand, Malaysia, the Philippines and Indonesia is baffling as an explanation of why Thai farmers are angry enough to get involved in an armed rebellion and attempt to burn down the capital, despite having done so much better over the last few decades as to be now labelled as “middle income peasants”. It is as if they were sitting around in the village seething about the fact that there is less income disparity in Indonesia, despite the fact that Indonesian farmers are actually much poorer than they are. This is superficial coffee table economics at its worst.
Thailand in crisis – ANU video series
Interesting that Jim Taylor describes the Chirativat family as “amats”. Are they any more “amats” than Thaksin and other wealthy Sino-Thai business people that support the red shirts? I would have thought that Thaksin’s grandfather’s activities as a tax gatherer for the absolute monarchy more than qualified him as a Chinese wannabe “amat”.
Enemies, foreign and domestic
Ozorro:
Why don’t you start thinking? Or is that also a “waste of time?” It would be a pity IF you thought so. But IF you did, it might well lead to constructive results.
Lewd dancing and Buddhist festivals
[…] Info: Here’s a piece on the use of coyote dancers at other festivals in Thailand, and the concern it raised a few years […]
Stevenson on King Bhumibol
Portman, Stevenson might have no academic credibility, but of all the writers that we see on NM, he is the probably closest to the King and the royal circle.
If you take his claims and the words of those who he claims to have talked with with a grain of salt, you’ll get some very unique insight to the thinking of the palace.
Thailand’s full-blown crisis of legitimacy
Today Abhisit seemed to say that a November election was unviable – of course he blamed this delay on the UDD for not participating in the roadmap. This seems directly to contradict his words in early May where he said that he would go ahead with the roadmap, irrespective of the UDD’s participation. The Bangkok Post records that assertion here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/176901/pm-vows-to-go-ahead-with-roadmap. Further legitimacy and credibility problems for Khun Abhisit.
Thailand’s terrorists
I am a Thai who appreciates NM’s articles -one like this article and also comments made by many of you e.g. Peter Boyles’s . In times of political crisis, we always appeciate NM as our friends. We need foreign friends who understand our situations and speak for us–as we cannot speak for ourselves. Our society is without freedom of speeches and expressions. We see our government becoming more and more brutal and oppressive if you are not agreeing with them. Channels of communication are shut down and political dissidents arrested. Very disappointing PM like Oxford-trained Abhisit!! We are in times of military dictatorship-like regime as in 1960’s, 1970’s and 1990’s despite material wealth and modernity. Why is that? The reds have the answers but they cannot say them. This is Thailand in 2010! This is the beginning to an end–I believe.
Lastly, thanks NM again for your understanding, coverage, friendships in times of need.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
“SimonSays”:
You said:
“I don’t think Nick’s presence or non-presence is of any consequence/importance to the prime minister at all. Do you?”
My presence yesterday was important enough for the Prime Minister to have, when the Q&A was finished, called me over to where he sat, and asked me where exactly i was during the incident at Rajaparop. I answered that i was one of the 11 who were stuck there for hours, an issue he was quite clearly aware off.
Furthermore, i initiated my question that i was aware off the existence of the so called “Black Shirts”, and will therefore not portray the Red Shirts as an entirely peaceful movement. But that, nevertheless, there were more than a few incidents where the military has broken their own rules of engagement and have initiated deadly fire (without warning shots) against unarmed protesters. I cited as a blatant example the one i got caught up in.
There is a whole lot more to be said, about the injured and killed EMS volunteers, and also about the issue of the “Black Shirts”, when the time is right, and investigations have been finished.
I do not put much trust though in the official investigating bodies that will perform the investigations – the National Human Rights Commission, and the National Anti Corruption Commission. Therefore i have asked to include, as we journalists were affected heavily as well, a to us acceptable representation in the investigation panel – a request that was flatly denied.
The “western press” reports what it sees, what it investigates, based on fact. It does not care one bit if some internet warriors or politicians mistakenly carry the believe that the “western press” would be “hopelessly (and condescendingly) pro-Red>pro-Thaksin”.
News is naturally limited as it has to give almost hourly reports during such massive events. If the government cannot give one single proof of its claims, for example of army only shooting at armed protesters, while the “western press” has filmed and photographed the opposite – that the army has shot on more than a few occasions exactly those unarmed protesters (and journalists) in front of hour eyes and cameras – then the “western press” has to report this, including showing the footage.
Nevertheless, there is not just the news business, there is also the much slower follow up. I will continue writing my books. And the third book (the second will come out soon) will also deal with the issue of the “Black Shirts”.
But be assured – you will mostly still not enjoy what i will have to say – as i follow fact, and not ideology or mistaken opinions based on insufficient understanding of facts. 😉
Enemies, foreign and domestic
Ozorro – 62
”Do you think those M79 grenade/RPG random attacks against Bangkok were ‘overblown bluster and bravado’ JohnH? Those were ‘full-blown’ grenade/RPG attacks, eh?”
No, I don’t, and I didn’t indicate that I did either.
By the way, M79 attacks by whom against whom?
Also, perhaps you can enlighten us why the General went to see Thaksin. If it was to plan a ”full blown civil war”, it wasn’t very well thought out, was it?
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Maybe you can also explain why the Thai media is so anti poor or anti buffalo as the so called educated people refer to them.
Do you think that these pro red westerners who are guilty of of over simplifying the problems, are this way because of a lack of understanding of Thailand?