Please do not only videotape this discussion but also add Thai subtitles. I get a lot of requests from thai friends who want to see any kind of information. They are hungry for truth.
“Exactly! This situation brings out the worst and clearest example of the failure of the Thai educational system. Thai education fails to teach student to look at the situation, process and produce a thought. They fail to teach student a proper thinking process. Also, a group of international school students or those who studied abroad are stuck with the old paradigm of reasoning. Again, the people running (most) of the education in Thailand are the produce of the current society/current ‘way of thinking’”
I respectfully disagree with you on this part, we admitted that our education system is not the best and yet caused us many problem but not because ” fails to teach student to look at the situation, process and produce a thought”, it because of we have a different gap between level of education which Thai government has been improving this point for the past decade … Many of students you mentioned graduated from USA, UK and many from Australia (we all cannot be such a bunch of stupid people i supposed)
One thing I want to clarify is there are many inside stories that many media doesn’t include in their report, and if you do consume only one media such as CNN then I wouldn’t doubt that why would you think this way. I do believe if you were really pay attention on what is really going on in Thailand political crisis you will find out many contradict between statements and reports from all sources not even from the mobs itself. But let me ask you something do you really justify our people or pur way of thinking from the media or from the solid evidences ? Because if you said you listen to the media and make that conclusion by yourself you are indifferent from those you just mentioned in the statement as well.
I do believed that one who actually in the field know best about what is going on, and ironically UN and world human rights seems doesn’t think the way you did (which also totally opposite with CNN statements as well). They agree that we have terrorists infiltrate in the red shirts mobs who used this situation as their advantage to destroy the reputation of our countries (Sadly it works)
Lastly I do believed we need to have a new election, and no matter how we will have that one soon …..
Sorry for long letter just think you all might wanna know, any further question or comments feel free to do so or e-mail it to me anytime.
The page is also censored by TT&T here in Chiangmai.
Very often, the easiest way to bypass the internet filtering is to use Google Transate: http://translate.google.com/?hl=en
Paste the link, choose any language paired with English and, presto, you are there.
@G. Hopper I was born in Thailand and lived there for 17 years before attending public high school in the USA so I know what I’m talking about when I talk about people dropping out and not living up to their true potential. If people dropped out and self educated it is different but the fact of the matter is they don’t, the majority that is. What I see is decadence. Football, tailgate party, and enjoying life takes priority over family financials and children’s future.
@Cazique you should read a book called And Not a Shot Is Fired. Jan Kozak explains how the people of Czechoslovakia were manipulated into voting themselves into slavery. Through targeted mass agitation, a free government was transformed into a totalitarian dictatorship — legally! Today more than ever, the revolutionary methods described by Kozak are being targeted against American liberties.
Do you know how democracy ended in greece? When people found out they can vote themselves money and freebies from the public funds, there was societal decline. Benjamin Franklin repeated those sentiments when he said “When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic”. That is also the steps the roman empire took when people started voting for socialism. Please read the book
The Rise and Fall of the Roman Republic – Lessons for Modern America
to see how history repeats itself and Thailand and USA are on the same path…
I am experiencing no problems accessing the New Mandala ….. at the moment. It has been said that the ICT (Ministry of Information and Communication Technology) has made attempts in the past (19th of May) at blocking access for domestic users of both Facebook and Twitter here in Thailand. Also, a colleague of mine who belongs to the editorial board of the Bangkok Post has let me know that certain individuals within CRES would like to increase monitoring of all electronic traffic across the country. There is concern that the on-the-spot reporting and gritty photojournalism demonstrated by a number of intrepid individuals (Thais and foreigners alike) since the 13th of May will have a LONG-TERM negative impact upon the image/branding of the country. Do not forget that the Magic Kingdom is a TATocracy.
Which reminds me. I would like to draw the attention of the New Mandala community to the Wat Pathumwaran story. I know that you have heard about it but do not let it fall off your radar screens. The Office of the Prime Minister and CRES are worried about the looming PR fiasco that awaits and so are doing their best to craft a polished, substantiated, sound, Red Shirt “terrorists” are to blame cover story. The Thai mainstream media will not touch the incident until it has been provided a “lead” from the Thai government as well as “permission” from the Thai military authorities to do its job. Furthermore, do not be surprised if the body count increases. Please document and investigate the story to the fullest extent possible. There are witnesses, there is evidence and there are victims.
The powers that be are very adept at false flag operations. Do not underestimate their prowess or their ruthlessness or their reach.
Re: Chris Beale #23
It’s beyond the mundane perspective of “winning” or “losing”, it’s the fate of a country we are looking at.
And as I said we are happy and believe in this legitimate government, so why on earth must we have another election? Just because some people sat together in a group on a Bangkok street?
And mind, you Abhisit did offer to have a new election on Nov 14, much to my disappointment, though!
Is it just me, but I’m sick and getting tired of the wanton use of the meaningless phrase ‘network monarchy’. Tell me, which royalty is not networked as it were? Duncan McCargo’s phrase, now adopted by a segment of self-styled ‘Thailand area specialists’, is just puffery; vacuous.
In any case, recent events point to the need for all those ‘specialists’ to re-write whatever they know about Thailand if they are to remain of any relevance.
This post in not strictly related to the blocking of NM content and may have no sinister implications whatsoever of any malicious intent by the Government.
Earlier today I wanted to check an item which I read on the NNT site a few weeks ago. My software issued this warning:
“This web page at thainews.prd.go.th has been reported as an attack page and has been blocked based on your security preferences.Attack pages try to install programs that steal private information, use your computer to attack others, or damage your system. Some attack pages intentionally distribute harmful software, but many are compromised without the knowledge or permission of their owners.”
I have used the NNT site many times in the past and never had any problems.
Second, I would like to offer a working definition of middle class in Thailand as “those who pay income tax”. A large majority of the population, presumably including many of the red shirt ranks, are not in this category – as is entirely appropriate for those with lower incomes under the principles of progressive taxation. However, there is also a small but very wealthy minority who pay far less than their proper due to government through various forms of illegal or marginally legal tax evasion. And it is especially rankling when the tax so evaded represents extraordinary gains from a government concession, privatization, or capital gains on share sales facilitated by dubious legal mechanisms and/or self-dealing political actions.
A fundamental tension in Thai society is the fact that government programs to benefit the poor (rural or urban) have resulted in the red shirt movement and a groundswell of support that has benefited Thaksin and his cronies, rather than support for the government as an institution, and much less for the tax-paying middle class who have disproportionately paid for these programs. One need not be a royalist or moneyed elite to feel indignation toward the red shirt cause. And nobody has talked much about the thousands of shop and office workers in Bangkok who have been put out of their jobs, or the small businesses destroyed, by the recent red shirt protests.
If only Thaksin had chosen to pay capital gains tax on the Temasak share sale (a pittance in retrospect) recent history might have been very different – and he would be no less rich today.
The events at Wat Pathum seem to me to be very important. If there is conclusive verification of the pictures posted in the link above (showing bound monks) or of the stories in the Independent newspaper and by McKinnon alleging shooting by soldiers in the temple complex, there is going to be a big reaction in Isaan. Does anybody have any proof that the monk pictures are genuine? Some expat posters on other forums are syaing they are fake monks or monks from elsewhere than Wat Pathum.
When Abhisit announced his road map it was non-negotiable, he simply said what he was going to do and that if everything goes to plan the country can have elections on that date.
Investigation of April 10 was very much part of that plan and I don’t believe he meant it would only be conducted by DSI.
Red leaders announced that they accept the roadmap in general, Abhisit that reminded them that if they want Nov 14 they have to stop the rally, the rest of his plan would go forward anyway.
A week had passed and reds showed no sign of moving out, and then there was Suthep goes to police comedy that turned Abhisit’s plan into negotiation over terms of red “surrender”.
That was non-negotiable, and it was never meant to be.
as worship of *** is inscribed on top of the thai constitution, not only criticism but also non-worship is severely sanctioned by law.
Thais have trapped themselves in a vicious circle by accepting to play this dangerous game, they therefore have to take responsibility for what happens to them now. Only the younger generation seem to want to avoid getting invoved in this relationship.
It would be nice if someone outside the country try and translate the King’s official title from Thai to English. IMO, It would shed some light on where the Thais views on him is from.
I personally guarantee that you will find it interesting.
Are you also aware that Pantip.com’s rajdumnern forum is offline in total, for the first time as of about a week ago.
Also very telling that a lot of us are using different names and anonymous details (including me!).
Would like to take this opportunity to thank the many journalists (both professional and amateur) who risked their lives in reporting on the ground, over the past weeks. So many great photos, narrative and details.
Without you all we never would have known what was really going on.
Well done guys, much appreciated!
I must admit though, with this type of scenario, censorship et al, I am not optimistic for Thailand’s future. It looks grim indeed. Until they learn to find some common ground with the opposition, room for discourse and ability to take criticism; the future is looking more totalitarian by the day.
Simon, do you know where Thais learn to love the king? In school, on the TV, the radio, the papers, and every events for the past decades to say the least. (Yes, in the theater also, how can we forget Chotisak)
In my entire life, I’ve seen more films about the king than movies. He’s everywhere. He’s Thailand religion. From birth til death, he is.
Respect the king the same way you respect the Pope. That’s what Thais learned.
I know many ppl who can’t even comprehend thinking bad about him. He’s up there with the Buddha.
That’s why there shouldn’t be any Anti-Monarchy movement in Thailand.
The fact is, if the government is right. There must be something seriously WRONG.
Stuart Goddard – this is the start of a long, long Pattani-style war for independence by Isaarn.
It may take a generation or two – but it has now definitely started.
>>3. “That the leaders of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), the red shirts’ formal title, failed to grasp this olive branch [Abhisit’s roadmap] is tragic. They, as much as trigger-happy soldiers, must bear some responsibility for the lives lost.”<<
This I strongly disagree. As much as? So their comrades who died by 'trigger-happy soldiers' share as much blame as the soldiers?
Facebook 
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London discussion of Thailand’s political turmoil
Please do not only videotape this discussion but also add Thai subtitles. I get a lot of requests from thai friends who want to see any kind of information. They are hungry for truth.
Please give something to feed them.
Former Australian Foreign Minister calls for new election in Thailand
Dear Chalie
According to your statement below…
“Exactly! This situation brings out the worst and clearest example of the failure of the Thai educational system. Thai education fails to teach student to look at the situation, process and produce a thought. They fail to teach student a proper thinking process. Also, a group of international school students or those who studied abroad are stuck with the old paradigm of reasoning. Again, the people running (most) of the education in Thailand are the produce of the current society/current ‘way of thinking’”
I respectfully disagree with you on this part, we admitted that our education system is not the best and yet caused us many problem but not because ” fails to teach student to look at the situation, process and produce a thought”, it because of we have a different gap between level of education which Thai government has been improving this point for the past decade … Many of students you mentioned graduated from USA, UK and many from Australia (we all cannot be such a bunch of stupid people i supposed)
One thing I want to clarify is there are many inside stories that many media doesn’t include in their report, and if you do consume only one media such as CNN then I wouldn’t doubt that why would you think this way. I do believe if you were really pay attention on what is really going on in Thailand political crisis you will find out many contradict between statements and reports from all sources not even from the mobs itself. But let me ask you something do you really justify our people or pur way of thinking from the media or from the solid evidences ? Because if you said you listen to the media and make that conclusion by yourself you are indifferent from those you just mentioned in the statement as well.
I do believed that one who actually in the field know best about what is going on, and ironically UN and world human rights seems doesn’t think the way you did (which also totally opposite with CNN statements as well). They agree that we have terrorists infiltrate in the red shirts mobs who used this situation as their advantage to destroy the reputation of our countries (Sadly it works)
Lastly I do believed we need to have a new election, and no matter how we will have that one soon …..
Sorry for long letter just think you all might wanna know, any further question or comments feel free to do so or e-mail it to me anytime.
Thakul
[email protected]
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
JohnH // May 21, 2010 at 8:29 pm
“I got the same message in red yesterday when I tried to access a jazz blog site yesterday, although it has since cleared.
Some used to condider jazz subversive, devil’s music etc. etc.”
Rather ironic since HM is a world renowned jazz enthusiast. I think some explanation is called for…
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
Hi all,
The page is also censored by TT&T here in Chiangmai.
Very often, the easiest way to bypass the internet filtering is to use Google Transate: http://translate.google.com/?hl=en
Paste the link, choose any language paired with English and, presto, you are there.
Here is how to do it :
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=af&tl=en&u=http://www.newmandala.org/2010/04/23/why-king-vajiralongkorn-will-be-good-for-thai-democracy/
Regards
20 May 1992
@G. Hopper I was born in Thailand and lived there for 17 years before attending public high school in the USA so I know what I’m talking about when I talk about people dropping out and not living up to their true potential. If people dropped out and self educated it is different but the fact of the matter is they don’t, the majority that is. What I see is decadence. Football, tailgate party, and enjoying life takes priority over family financials and children’s future.
@Cazique you should read a book called And Not a Shot Is Fired. Jan Kozak explains how the people of Czechoslovakia were manipulated into voting themselves into slavery. Through targeted mass agitation, a free government was transformed into a totalitarian dictatorship — legally! Today more than ever, the revolutionary methods described by Kozak are being targeted against American liberties.
Do you know how democracy ended in greece? When people found out they can vote themselves money and freebies from the public funds, there was societal decline. Benjamin Franklin repeated those sentiments when he said “When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic”. That is also the steps the roman empire took when people started voting for socialism. Please read the book
The Rise and Fall of the Roman Republic – Lessons for Modern America
to see how history repeats itself and Thailand and USA are on the same path…
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
Signore e signori,
I am experiencing no problems accessing the New Mandala ….. at the moment. It has been said that the ICT (Ministry of Information and Communication Technology) has made attempts in the past (19th of May) at blocking access for domestic users of both Facebook and Twitter here in Thailand. Also, a colleague of mine who belongs to the editorial board of the Bangkok Post has let me know that certain individuals within CRES would like to increase monitoring of all electronic traffic across the country. There is concern that the on-the-spot reporting and gritty photojournalism demonstrated by a number of intrepid individuals (Thais and foreigners alike) since the 13th of May will have a LONG-TERM negative impact upon the image/branding of the country. Do not forget that the Magic Kingdom is a TATocracy.
Which reminds me. I would like to draw the attention of the New Mandala community to the Wat Pathumwaran story. I know that you have heard about it but do not let it fall off your radar screens. The Office of the Prime Minister and CRES are worried about the looming PR fiasco that awaits and so are doing their best to craft a polished, substantiated, sound, Red Shirt “terrorists” are to blame cover story. The Thai mainstream media will not touch the incident until it has been provided a “lead” from the Thai government as well as “permission” from the Thai military authorities to do its job. Furthermore, do not be surprised if the body count increases. Please document and investigate the story to the fullest extent possible. There are witnesses, there is evidence and there are victims.
The powers that be are very adept at false flag operations. Do not underestimate their prowess or their ruthlessness or their reach.
Former Australian Foreign Minister calls for new election in Thailand
RE:
Chalie // May 21, 2010 at 4:38 pm
“Nicholas,
As of now, both are working.”
They’re both still blocked still blocked here in north Thailand
Commentary on roots of the Thai crisis
Re: Chris Beale #23
It’s beyond the mundane perspective of “winning” or “losing”, it’s the fate of a country we are looking at.
And as I said we are happy and believe in this legitimate government, so why on earth must we have another election? Just because some people sat together in a group on a Bangkok street?
And mind, you Abhisit did offer to have a new election on Nov 14, much to my disappointment, though!
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
I’m sure some NM readers will have a response to this one…
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/thailands-real-road-to-freedom-starts-here/article1574712/
On Bhumibolists and Royalists
Is it just me, but I’m sick and getting tired of the wanton use of the meaningless phrase ‘network monarchy’. Tell me, which royalty is not networked as it were? Duncan McCargo’s phrase, now adopted by a segment of self-styled ‘Thailand area specialists’, is just puffery; vacuous.
In any case, recent events point to the need for all those ‘specialists’ to re-write whatever they know about Thailand if they are to remain of any relevance.
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
This post in not strictly related to the blocking of NM content and may have no sinister implications whatsoever of any malicious intent by the Government.
Earlier today I wanted to check an item which I read on the NNT site a few weeks ago. My software issued this warning:
“This web page at thainews.prd.go.th has been reported as an attack page and has been blocked based on your security preferences.Attack pages try to install programs that steal private information, use your computer to attack others, or damage your system. Some attack pages intentionally distribute harmful software, but many are compromised without the knowledge or permission of their owners.”
I have used the NNT site many times in the past and never had any problems.
Commentary on roots of the Thai crisis
Continuation of my previous posting…
Second, I would like to offer a working definition of middle class in Thailand as “those who pay income tax”. A large majority of the population, presumably including many of the red shirt ranks, are not in this category – as is entirely appropriate for those with lower incomes under the principles of progressive taxation. However, there is also a small but very wealthy minority who pay far less than their proper due to government through various forms of illegal or marginally legal tax evasion. And it is especially rankling when the tax so evaded represents extraordinary gains from a government concession, privatization, or capital gains on share sales facilitated by dubious legal mechanisms and/or self-dealing political actions.
A fundamental tension in Thai society is the fact that government programs to benefit the poor (rural or urban) have resulted in the red shirt movement and a groundswell of support that has benefited Thaksin and his cronies, rather than support for the government as an institution, and much less for the tax-paying middle class who have disproportionately paid for these programs. One need not be a royalist or moneyed elite to feel indignation toward the red shirt cause. And nobody has talked much about the thousands of shop and office workers in Bangkok who have been put out of their jobs, or the small businesses destroyed, by the recent red shirt protests.
If only Thaksin had chosen to pay capital gains tax on the Temasak share sale (a pittance in retrospect) recent history might have been very different – and he would be no less rich today.
Burning, curfew
The events at Wat Pathum seem to me to be very important. If there is conclusive verification of the pictures posted in the link above (showing bound monks) or of the stories in the Independent newspaper and by McKinnon alleging shooting by soldiers in the temple complex, there is going to be a big reaction in Isaan. Does anybody have any proof that the monk pictures are genuine? Some expat posters on other forums are syaing they are fake monks or monks from elsewhere than Wat Pathum.
Commentary on roots of the Thai crisis
Nov 14 was not open to negotiations.
When Abhisit announced his road map it was non-negotiable, he simply said what he was going to do and that if everything goes to plan the country can have elections on that date.
Investigation of April 10 was very much part of that plan and I don’t believe he meant it would only be conducted by DSI.
Red leaders announced that they accept the roadmap in general, Abhisit that reminded them that if they want Nov 14 they have to stop the rally, the rest of his plan would go forward anyway.
A week had passed and reds showed no sign of moving out, and then there was Suthep goes to police comedy that turned Abhisit’s plan into negotiation over terms of red “surrender”.
That was non-negotiable, and it was never meant to be.
On Bhumibolists and Royalists
as worship of *** is inscribed on top of the thai constitution, not only criticism but also non-worship is severely sanctioned by law.
Thais have trapped themselves in a vicious circle by accepting to play this dangerous game, they therefore have to take responsibility for what happens to them now. Only the younger generation seem to want to avoid getting invoved in this relationship.
20 May 1992
It would be nice if someone outside the country try and translate the King’s official title from Thai to English. IMO, It would shed some light on where the Thais views on him is from.
I personally guarantee that you will find it interesting.
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
Are you also aware that Pantip.com’s rajdumnern forum is offline in total, for the first time as of about a week ago.
Also very telling that a lot of us are using different names and anonymous details (including me!).
Would like to take this opportunity to thank the many journalists (both professional and amateur) who risked their lives in reporting on the ground, over the past weeks. So many great photos, narrative and details.
Without you all we never would have known what was really going on.
Well done guys, much appreciated!
I must admit though, with this type of scenario, censorship et al, I am not optimistic for Thailand’s future. It looks grim indeed. Until they learn to find some common ground with the opposition, room for discourse and ability to take criticism; the future is looking more totalitarian by the day.
20 May 1992
Simon, do you know where Thais learn to love the king? In school, on the TV, the radio, the papers, and every events for the past decades to say the least. (Yes, in the theater also, how can we forget Chotisak)
In my entire life, I’ve seen more films about the king than movies. He’s everywhere. He’s Thailand religion. From birth til death, he is.
Respect the king the same way you respect the Pope. That’s what Thais learned.
I know many ppl who can’t even comprehend thinking bad about him. He’s up there with the Buddha.
That’s why there shouldn’t be any Anti-Monarchy movement in Thailand.
The fact is, if the government is right. There must be something seriously WRONG.
New Mandala “temporarily curtailed”?
Stuart Goddard – this is the start of a long, long Pattani-style war for independence by Isaarn.
It may take a generation or two – but it has now definitely started.
Commentary on roots of the Thai crisis
>>3. “That the leaders of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), the red shirts’ formal title, failed to grasp this olive branch [Abhisit’s roadmap] is tragic. They, as much as trigger-happy soldiers, must bear some responsibility for the lives lost.”<<
This I strongly disagree. As much as? So their comrades who died by 'trigger-happy soldiers' share as much blame as the soldiers?
Truely shocking.
It's like he's saying they WANT to die.