I really want to listen to this talk, I hope it will be posted on youtube.
I agrees with the point Ungpakorn is making. From his criticism of the monarchy to his support of the Red Shirt, Ungpakorn supports the Red Shirt which is the movement for the people which in its nature doesn’t lie with the elite, ‘up-there’, agenda.
Ungpakorn has always been an activist. Recently, he make it clearer that his is a Red Shirt supporter to the point that I feel he is loosing his legitimacy as a scholar. His talk at SOAS, University of London was a great talk really discussing the situation. But if you listen to his debate with Cunningham, Ungpakorn is a Red Shirt supporter whole heartedly speaking with an agenda to support the red shirt. With that agenda, he is not an academic in that discussion.
I am not saying Ungpakorn should take what position. Considering his background, experience and world view, it almost only make sense that he is a Red Shirt activist than just a Thai political scholar.
On an entirely separated point, both Cunningham and Ungpakorn are missing a giant elephant in their debate.
Since much of this page – apparently being blocked – is in favour of the Crown Prince, please will NM now launch an LM charge against whoever is blocking it !!
Even though this is factual, I'd rather be anonymous says:
Nuomi, you are correct, the Mahidols are not the only line of legal succession.
If the Mahidol line is exhausted, there is the Boripat line. As in the clan of Bangkok Governer Sukhumphan.
But the Mahidol line is rich in potential successors (look at all the Crown Prince’s healthy sons from his second wife), so I don’t think the Governor is looking forward to a big promotion any time soon.
For more information, look up “1924 Palace Law of Succession” on Wikipedia.
Can anyone else out there confirm the blocking of this single page in Thailand? Are there other New Mandala pages that have received similar treatment?
Jim Taylor – thanks very much for that lead :
only partly accessible – even in Oz !!!
Suzie Wong – thanks for confirming what is an open secret.
Was it Yellow Shirt agent provocateurs who torched Big C ?
Why has this forum taken on the simplistic class analysis of ‘elite’ and ‘poor’ and accepted at face value this divide between Bangkok and rural areas?
The phenomenal social change of Thailand has created an even more complex tapestry of class than can be captured in elite/poor. Class differentiation is layered and complex – the means of production and of exchange are changing rapidly. There is a huge growth in rural entrepeneurship – agricultural or otherwise – although of course this has always been there.
What proportion of Bangkok is purely Bangkokian? From my own personal experience the vast majority of people I know (friend, family, colleagues, neighbours, associates) come from the provinces – i think the majority from backgrounds of farming, petty trading, civil service (teachers, police). These people still go back for Songkhran, weddings, funerals – and many more regularly than this. They are in no way as disconnected from provinces as is assumed.
To suggest that the whole of north and Isaan constitutes one distinct class is bizarre.
What on earth is the middle class in Thailand? How is it defined? Is there really one middle class? If so what proportion of Thailand fits into this class?
And how do we account for patronage in Thai politics? Does it not feature in all political parties – way beyond class consciousness?
It strikes me that there are some huge gaps in political and social analysis in Thailand, and that there is a desperate need for us to catch up if we are to understand and make a constructive contribution to democratic change
RE: Scheming king unwilling to stop the violence on Bangkok’s streets
“May 18, 2010”
Dear: Mr. Peter Hartcher,
I’m an Australian citizen, currently living and working in Thailand, although my blood is not Thai – nor is it Australian, I’d like to think of myself as a devoted citizen to both.
I’ve read your article : Scheming King unwilling to stop the violence in Bangkok’s streets, and I’m quite disappointed on the level of your research and the projection of your opinion.
I believe that we are all very entitled to our opinions, but they must be stated with clear, accurate, informative facts, as a reputable journalist you need to make sure that your opinion and interpretation of the facts are within a professional line. I’m certain that there is a code amongst ethical journalism.
Peter, I’m afraid you’ve crossed that line. First, let’s start with your heading.
“Scheming King unwilling to stop the violence in Bangkok’s streets”
Inappropriate, anger – provoking and a severely unethical statement.
Secondly let’s look at your passage regarding how Thai’s pay respect to His Royal Majesty,
“mystical power that many Thais invested in the throne”
Don’t you think this is a little far-fetched?
If we put both countries side by side, Australia and Thailand, there are many of us that have a strong l patriotic love for our Queen, Queen Elizabeth. There’s a reason why people have a mysterious love for the powers that govern our societies, this simply is – the things they do for our nation.
For example, let’s analyze the facts, His Royal Majesty efforts are well beyond those of any politicians governing Thailand, even though during 1951 – 1957, the monarchy had been suppressed by military regime. The statement you made about Mr. Thaksin’s efforts: His efforts in one term in power easily eclipsed the king’s decades of charitable efforts to help the poor.
This is a false statement. Be careful Mr. Hartcher.
His Royal Majesty has funded projects and been involved with helping Thailand reform as a self – sustainable nation and economy. Do you think Government Handouts help sustain a nation?
Did you know that there is more than 3000 development projects have been initiated and successfully implemented by the King. From these initiatives and projects, the government in parliament at that time, will research how feasible and cost effective they were to approve and implement.
The goal is to evolve Thailand to a ‘self sufficient nation’ did I mention that? Some important projects His Royal Majesty conducted and participated in research, field experimentation, and implementation are:
Prevention of Water shortages by inventing an Atmospheric Water Source
Prevention of Soil Degradation and Erosion
Oxidation by Mechanical Aeration to Increase Pollutant-Destroying Bacteria
Waste Water Management Combining Lagoon Treatment and Grass Filtration
Makkasan Waste Water Treatment Through Filtration by Water Hyacinth (Bangkok)
Waste Water Treatment Using Constructed Wetlands and Air Transfer ( Nong Sanom-Nong Han, Sakon Nakhon Province)
Rama IX Lake: Combined Biological and Mechanical Treatment of Waste Water ( Bangkok)
A Physical-Chemical Treatment Process of Precipitation: Poly Aluminum Chloride (PAC)
And the list goes on…
I do have to agree with one thing, Thaksin did do a good job with subsidized universal health care and low-cost universal access to anti-retroviral HIV medication – but was it really his own initiative, did he go out and do a study on HIV patients? Or was it the initiative of his hardworking party and his signature down the bottom? Moreover, I don’t believe that his economical reforms aspiring to charitable handouts to the rural poor would do long term good for the nation. And I like his dreamy initiative on the state lottery which funded student loans, but really did they? I hear a different story.
Remember Peter, the goal here is to evolve Thailand to a self – sufficient, self sustainable nation. The popular saying comes into play: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime?
Do you think giving subsidies, charitable handouts to the rural poor would reform any nation of it’s problems? It’s a great plan, really brilliant. But any honest man in power that plans to give subsidies, would also make charitable donations from his own pocket don’t you think? Instead, Mr. Thaksin concentrated on infrastructure and liberalization policies that – whilst this was all legal and maybe a potential benefit to society, also aided companies that were owned and controlled by his family members. I guess that’s Policy Corruption? Right? The result of this beautiful plan caused the state to spend nearly 30% more than it otherwise should have, costing an additional massive 400 BILLION baht. Clearly from the facts and the 51 charges of corruption laid out to him, Mr. Thaksin, was ultimately only looking out for his best interests. Which was money going back into his pocket. Oh so very charitable.
Peter, if you properly did you’re research – there are countless awards that His Royal Majesty received by international governments and people in power. Do you think your article headline clearly represents him? Don’t you think if that was true, why so many international awards?
For example,
In 1960, Bhumibol was a recipient of the Royal Victorian Chain, a personal award of Queen Elizabeth II.
Also on 28 June 1960, President of the United States Dwight D. Eisenhower presented him with the Legion of Merit, Degree of Chief Commander[76] and Bhumibol presented President Eisenhower with the Most Illustrious Order of the Royal House of Chakri.
Bhumibol, who serves as head of The National Scout Organization of Thailand, was presented the Bronze Wolf award on 20 June 2006, the highest award of the World Organization of the Scout Movement, for his support and development of Scouting in Thailand by Carl XVI Gustaf, King of Sweden and Honorary President of the World Scout Foundation. The presentation took place at Chitralada Palace in Thailand and was witnessed by Chairman of the World Scout Committee Herman Hui.
What kind of international recognition has Mr.Thaksin received? Besides from being a corrupted politician?
Now let’s concentrate on the your final passage,
“Today, as the latest Thai crisis escalates, as army snipers take
aim at unarmed civilians and murder them in the streets, with 35 dead
in five days and some 240 wounded, many have asked: where is the king
now?”
Do you think that Thai soildres are that careless and uneducated individuals that just shoot at random unarmed civilians? Wake up. There has been more than 50 reported cases of grenade attacks in a 3 week period. Would you like to see some photos of this evidence?
Les#6: seems to me Philip Cunningham is living in abstract world where reality does not exist: he should open his eyes and listen to the people. Maybe he is paid by the Yellow Shirts/amaat, the real fascists in Thailand. These folk would love to listen to his prolific anti-Thaksin propaganda speak. I was also at Chula and taught at Political Science Faculty with Ji. I was influenced at the turn of the last century with the massive amount of Thaksin fiction in the media like many intellectuals/academics -but then I went out to the countryside and listened to people. The Red Shirts are a broad based social movement and it is based on their losses that are as much cultural, political and economic; along with double standards and injustices in deposing more than once since 2007 a govt that they elected. What school did Cunningham go to??
The king’s return to public prominence, especially with the rural folk, was carefully rehabilitated and then nutured by Field Marshall Sarit, an amoral, corrupt murderer, albeit for his own nefarious ends.
Strangely, for a man who once apparently referred to Sarit as ‘corrupt and uncouth’., (A History of Thailand, Baker and Pongpaichit, p. 176.) the king was quite happy enough with Sarit to name him as ‘Defender of the Capital’ during the coup of 1957, (ibid. p177.) thus sentencing Thailand to another extended period of undemocratic, excessively corrupt military rule.
I can’t imagine why the king allowed himself to be aligned with this odious individual, can you K. Rattawit?
And just to echo Stuart’s and other poster’s comments on the same theme. Many foreigners who live here in Thailand do have, at the very least, a pretty good understanding of Thailand.
Please, please stop relying on the tiresome ‘foreigners do not understand etc. etc.’ mantra.
At least we do try to understand, unlike the majority of the people we work and live with, who seem to live their lives as frogs in a coconut.
Exactly! This situation brings out the worst and clearest example of the failure of the Thai educational system. Thai education fails to teach student to look at the situation, process and produce a thought. They fail to teach student a proper thinking process. Also, a group of international school students or those who studied abroad are stuck with the old paradigm of reasoning. Again, the people running (most) of the education in Thailand are the produce of the current society/current ‘way of thinking’.
The above link to the Ungpakorn/Cunningham debate covers the basic disagreements among so many over the left’s position on the red shirts it’s probably worth putting the link as a separate post. Up to you of course.
“what the king really thinks of his people, read the disgraceful book he wrote – notionally about his dog but really about ‘his’ people. This is just one long metaphor about the behaviour he expects from his Thai subjects, and the relationship between himself and them. It is an interesting and very revealing read, but I imagine you haven’t read it yet, because you are evidently not outraged.”
And by comparison the Crown Prince promotes Captain Fufu !
I fail to see what people have against the CP.
You guys are being selectively blocked in Thailand. When they started blocking this? I read it couple of weeks ago but it is now not accessible.
I am actually amazed that they went to the trouble of blocking only this page and not the whole /newmandala -part. For once Thai censors have been doing something “properly”.
I have read all comments after mine and feel like im an elite completely. Hmmm I felt good that since the first time i was born in this life, now im an elite who doesnt know what the poor or unprivileged people think. That feel good cos I was born in Buriram,province that has high portion of poor people in Thailand, My family is based on agriculture livving, and my life ,as i remember, relate to very suburb life with poor farmers all around my land, thts why i feel good when you said im elite.Thank you.
I always listen to the principle of red shirt whenever i have chance to do so, read many philosophy books about people revolutuion which i can them so easily in law library and watch news like you guys here, I think the only difference is that i came from that “marginal people” for real. Its no point to say about this, at first i think that, till Athita told me that im an elite and my comments is quite worthless as it come from an elite.
Question is what is elite and what is marginal people? can i include middle class in BKK with Marginal people? or if Im elite, what should i think about this situation? and as a poor man what should i think? Should I think as same as you as a poor man? if I think something differ from you, am i still be poor man or marginal people as i am now?
The only reason why i told you guys to learn more about this country is you wont have any close chance to know about Thai if you just read books or listen to one of poor men and women who came here in BKK to protest, which i can say, most of them came here with promise from politicians and firebrands. You have to understand basic culture, opinion, the way we think, and you are sure that you know?
And if you are still sure about this, there are many questions left as
Do you really know what are my people requesting for?
Is that the real need of people in Esaan or almost of Marginal people in Thailand?
Do you have the number of people to support you comment?
It seems like you have a lot of information about Thai monarch and poor people who suffered from this regime, then, how can you be sure that your information is right??
Are you in those situations?
Are you here in my area to suffer with poor men and women?
And as I read comments aboved, I cant include what is the real purposeof this topic. Do you want Thailand to convert to republic state? Without Monarch? Ruled by President? Like which country? France? Laos? USA? Poland? Russia? Germany? Is that suit for my country , for my society?
This questions you cant deny to answer, if you think you know for real (you fail at this factor already) and you want to change, then which thing you would like to change to, furthermore you sure that it is suit for this country…I hope you realise that the elite system in England or Usa or another country is different from each others and is not a ready-to-eat system for the rest countries on this earth.
Back to the first question…How can you know that the information you wrote down here , without any of real obviously source, is true?
I understand and believe in freedom of speech, but I still believe that people has to take responsibility on what he or she speak out too.
A very interesting recent debate between Giles Ungpakorn and Philip Cunningham on a US TV station. Shows there is more than one opinion on the left among the academics.
Really is worth watching, but probably will not change anyone’s personal opinions. Funny bit is where Giles accuses Cunningham of bandying around the term ‘fascist’ without understanding the meaning of the word and then within a minute is using it himself. I guess we are all guilty of that 😉
“My main issue is the Queen is the main player yet she has no formal political title to take any responsibility. Furthermore, the lese majeste law prohibits and punishes the discussion of the key player. Aphisit is only the de jure while the Queen is the de facto power behind the scene.
It would be a waste of time to discuss about Aphisit because he has never been a decision maker.
Indeed.
I was asked on another thread what I thought the ‘falling out’ between mummy and Son was about. The truth is I don’t know, but drawing on what I do know, and projecting that forward, I would say that Mummy does not want son as king. I would suggest she wants to skip a generation with herself/Prem as regent. probably Prem was the first choice with herself pulling the strings and basking in the imagined adulation of the masses, but he is old and allegedly sick (though he might just be hiding).
It is commonly believed that Mummy wants absolute power. It is well known that she believes she is the reincarnation of the legendary Queen Suryothai, and it seems likely that in this rather twisted imaginary scenario, she now wants to claim her rightful place in the Thai nation.
Nobody is asking why the King is still in hospital after some 9 months… conveniently out of the way perhaps? Or for security?
Thailand has many, many rumours, it’s a favoured form of entertainment for Thais. But rumours often have a basis in fact, and what eventually becomes the rumour is often the interpretation or an enlargement built on fact. A persistent rumour concerning the Thai royal family is that when the king dies, the CP is likely to be quickly assassinated to prevent him ascending to the throne, and this is why in times of health crisis of the king, the CP generally goes offshore quite quickly. Another rumour is of a long-standing (or perhaps just old) improper relationship between the queen and Prem, who is generally regarded as having 5-bob each way as far as his sexuality os concerned. He is certainly known to be a favourite of the queen.
All is not, apparently, sweetness and light in the ‘semi-divine’ royal family, and to the extent that the CP is known to be a philanderer with some very unsavoury predelictions, one can feel justified in asking where the genes came from.
The Red demand has been for:
1. Dissolution of the parliament now (thereby depriving the present government of the chance to pass another budget which no doubt would include huge handouts for the military) and
2. A general election. Then the incoming government could choose the new head of the army to ensure, hopefully, not another coup is mounted against it.
A November election would frustrate both these aims and I cannot understand how the Reds could have taken the offer seriously. Of course now we know Abhisit did not put forward the offer in good faith.
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London discussion of Thailand’s political turmoil
I really want to listen to this talk, I hope it will be posted on youtube.
I agrees with the point Ungpakorn is making. From his criticism of the monarchy to his support of the Red Shirt, Ungpakorn supports the Red Shirt which is the movement for the people which in its nature doesn’t lie with the elite, ‘up-there’, agenda.
Ungpakorn has always been an activist. Recently, he make it clearer that his is a Red Shirt supporter to the point that I feel he is loosing his legitimacy as a scholar. His talk at SOAS, University of London was a great talk really discussing the situation. But if you listen to his debate with Cunningham, Ungpakorn is a Red Shirt supporter whole heartedly speaking with an agenda to support the red shirt. With that agenda, he is not an academic in that discussion.
I am not saying Ungpakorn should take what position. Considering his background, experience and world view, it almost only make sense that he is a Red Shirt activist than just a Thai political scholar.
On an entirely separated point, both Cunningham and Ungpakorn are missing a giant elephant in their debate.
Former Australian Foreign Minister calls for new election in Thailand
Since much of this page – apparently being blocked – is in favour of the Crown Prince, please will NM now launch an LM charge against whoever is blocking it !!
Assumptions about the next in line
Nuomi, you are correct, the Mahidols are not the only line of legal succession.
If the Mahidol line is exhausted, there is the Boripat line. As in the clan of Bangkok Governer Sukhumphan.
But the Mahidol line is rich in potential successors (look at all the Crown Prince’s healthy sons from his second wife), so I don’t think the Governor is looking forward to a big promotion any time soon.
For more information, look up “1924 Palace Law of Succession” on Wikipedia.
Former Australian Foreign Minister calls for new election in Thailand
Thanks Mr V,
Can anyone else out there confirm the blocking of this single page in Thailand? Are there other New Mandala pages that have received similar treatment?
Best wishes to all,
Nich
London discussion of Thailand’s political turmoil
Jim Taylor – thanks very much for that lead :
only partly accessible – even in Oz !!!
Suzie Wong – thanks for confirming what is an open secret.
Was it Yellow Shirt agent provocateurs who torched Big C ?
Commentary on roots of the Thai crisis
Why has this forum taken on the simplistic class analysis of ‘elite’ and ‘poor’ and accepted at face value this divide between Bangkok and rural areas?
The phenomenal social change of Thailand has created an even more complex tapestry of class than can be captured in elite/poor. Class differentiation is layered and complex – the means of production and of exchange are changing rapidly. There is a huge growth in rural entrepeneurship – agricultural or otherwise – although of course this has always been there.
What proportion of Bangkok is purely Bangkokian? From my own personal experience the vast majority of people I know (friend, family, colleagues, neighbours, associates) come from the provinces – i think the majority from backgrounds of farming, petty trading, civil service (teachers, police). These people still go back for Songkhran, weddings, funerals – and many more regularly than this. They are in no way as disconnected from provinces as is assumed.
To suggest that the whole of north and Isaan constitutes one distinct class is bizarre.
What on earth is the middle class in Thailand? How is it defined? Is there really one middle class? If so what proportion of Thailand fits into this class?
And how do we account for patronage in Thai politics? Does it not feature in all political parties – way beyond class consciousness?
It strikes me that there are some huge gaps in political and social analysis in Thailand, and that there is a desperate need for us to catch up if we are to understand and make a constructive contribution to democratic change
A chance for peace?
RE: Scheming king unwilling to stop the violence on Bangkok’s streets
“May 18, 2010”
Dear: Mr. Peter Hartcher,
I’m an Australian citizen, currently living and working in Thailand, although my blood is not Thai – nor is it Australian, I’d like to think of myself as a devoted citizen to both.
I’ve read your article : Scheming King unwilling to stop the violence in Bangkok’s streets, and I’m quite disappointed on the level of your research and the projection of your opinion.
I believe that we are all very entitled to our opinions, but they must be stated with clear, accurate, informative facts, as a reputable journalist you need to make sure that your opinion and interpretation of the facts are within a professional line. I’m certain that there is a code amongst ethical journalism.
Peter, I’m afraid you’ve crossed that line. First, let’s start with your heading.
“Scheming King unwilling to stop the violence in Bangkok’s streets”
Inappropriate, anger – provoking and a severely unethical statement.
Secondly let’s look at your passage regarding how Thai’s pay respect to His Royal Majesty,
“mystical power that many Thais invested in the throne”
Don’t you think this is a little far-fetched?
If we put both countries side by side, Australia and Thailand, there are many of us that have a strong l patriotic love for our Queen, Queen Elizabeth. There’s a reason why people have a mysterious love for the powers that govern our societies, this simply is – the things they do for our nation.
For example, let’s analyze the facts, His Royal Majesty efforts are well beyond those of any politicians governing Thailand, even though during 1951 – 1957, the monarchy had been suppressed by military regime. The statement you made about Mr. Thaksin’s efforts: His efforts in one term in power easily eclipsed the king’s decades of charitable efforts to help the poor.
This is a false statement. Be careful Mr. Hartcher.
His Royal Majesty has funded projects and been involved with helping Thailand reform as a self – sustainable nation and economy. Do you think Government Handouts help sustain a nation?
Did you know that there is more than 3000 development projects have been initiated and successfully implemented by the King. From these initiatives and projects, the government in parliament at that time, will research how feasible and cost effective they were to approve and implement.
The goal is to evolve Thailand to a ‘self sufficient nation’ did I mention that? Some important projects His Royal Majesty conducted and participated in research, field experimentation, and implementation are:
Prevention of Water shortages by inventing an Atmospheric Water Source
Prevention of Soil Degradation and Erosion
Oxidation by Mechanical Aeration to Increase Pollutant-Destroying Bacteria
Waste Water Management Combining Lagoon Treatment and Grass Filtration
Makkasan Waste Water Treatment Through Filtration by Water Hyacinth (Bangkok)
Waste Water Treatment Using Constructed Wetlands and Air Transfer ( Nong Sanom-Nong Han, Sakon Nakhon Province)
Rama IX Lake: Combined Biological and Mechanical Treatment of Waste Water ( Bangkok)
A Physical-Chemical Treatment Process of Precipitation: Poly Aluminum Chloride (PAC)
And the list goes on…
I do have to agree with one thing, Thaksin did do a good job with subsidized universal health care and low-cost universal access to anti-retroviral HIV medication – but was it really his own initiative, did he go out and do a study on HIV patients? Or was it the initiative of his hardworking party and his signature down the bottom? Moreover, I don’t believe that his economical reforms aspiring to charitable handouts to the rural poor would do long term good for the nation. And I like his dreamy initiative on the state lottery which funded student loans, but really did they? I hear a different story.
Remember Peter, the goal here is to evolve Thailand to a self – sufficient, self sustainable nation. The popular saying comes into play: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime?
Do you think giving subsidies, charitable handouts to the rural poor would reform any nation of it’s problems? It’s a great plan, really brilliant. But any honest man in power that plans to give subsidies, would also make charitable donations from his own pocket don’t you think? Instead, Mr. Thaksin concentrated on infrastructure and liberalization policies that – whilst this was all legal and maybe a potential benefit to society, also aided companies that were owned and controlled by his family members. I guess that’s Policy Corruption? Right? The result of this beautiful plan caused the state to spend nearly 30% more than it otherwise should have, costing an additional massive 400 BILLION baht. Clearly from the facts and the 51 charges of corruption laid out to him, Mr. Thaksin, was ultimately only looking out for his best interests. Which was money going back into his pocket. Oh so very charitable.
Peter, if you properly did you’re research – there are countless awards that His Royal Majesty received by international governments and people in power. Do you think your article headline clearly represents him? Don’t you think if that was true, why so many international awards?
For example,
In 1960, Bhumibol was a recipient of the Royal Victorian Chain, a personal award of Queen Elizabeth II.
Also on 28 June 1960, President of the United States Dwight D. Eisenhower presented him with the Legion of Merit, Degree of Chief Commander[76] and Bhumibol presented President Eisenhower with the Most Illustrious Order of the Royal House of Chakri.
Bhumibol, who serves as head of The National Scout Organization of Thailand, was presented the Bronze Wolf award on 20 June 2006, the highest award of the World Organization of the Scout Movement, for his support and development of Scouting in Thailand by Carl XVI Gustaf, King of Sweden and Honorary President of the World Scout Foundation. The presentation took place at Chitralada Palace in Thailand and was witnessed by Chairman of the World Scout Committee Herman Hui.
What kind of international recognition has Mr.Thaksin received? Besides from being a corrupted politician?
Now let’s concentrate on the your final passage,
“Today, as the latest Thai crisis escalates, as army snipers take
aim at unarmed civilians and murder them in the streets, with 35 dead
in five days and some 240 wounded, many have asked: where is the king
now?”
Do you think that Thai soildres are that careless and uneducated individuals that just shoot at random unarmed civilians? Wake up. There has been more than 50 reported cases of grenade attacks in a 3 week period. Would you like to see some photos of this evidence?
Have a look: http://tnews.teenee.com/politic/50814.html
Do you think unarmed civilians did this?
Wake up Mr. Peter Hartcher or just go back to sleep because you’re a little out of your league here.
Written by Sarah Huang
References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Bhumibol_Adulyadej_of_Thailand
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaksin_Shinawatra
London discussion of Thailand’s political turmoil
Les#6: seems to me Philip Cunningham is living in abstract world where reality does not exist: he should open his eyes and listen to the people. Maybe he is paid by the Yellow Shirts/amaat, the real fascists in Thailand. These folk would love to listen to his prolific anti-Thaksin propaganda speak. I was also at Chula and taught at Political Science Faculty with Ji. I was influenced at the turn of the last century with the massive amount of Thaksin fiction in the media like many intellectuals/academics -but then I went out to the countryside and listened to people. The Red Shirts are a broad based social movement and it is based on their losses that are as much cultural, political and economic; along with double standards and injustices in deposing more than once since 2007 a govt that they elected. What school did Cunningham go to??
20 May 1992
To add to Stuart Goddard’s on-the-ball points:
The king’s return to public prominence, especially with the rural folk, was carefully rehabilitated and then nutured by Field Marshall Sarit, an amoral, corrupt murderer, albeit for his own nefarious ends.
Strangely, for a man who once apparently referred to Sarit as ‘corrupt and uncouth’., (A History of Thailand, Baker and Pongpaichit, p. 176.) the king was quite happy enough with Sarit to name him as ‘Defender of the Capital’ during the coup of 1957, (ibid. p177.) thus sentencing Thailand to another extended period of undemocratic, excessively corrupt military rule.
I can’t imagine why the king allowed himself to be aligned with this odious individual, can you K. Rattawit?
And just to echo Stuart’s and other poster’s comments on the same theme. Many foreigners who live here in Thailand do have, at the very least, a pretty good understanding of Thailand.
Please, please stop relying on the tiresome ‘foreigners do not understand etc. etc.’ mantra.
At least we do try to understand, unlike the majority of the people we work and live with, who seem to live their lives as frogs in a coconut.
Former Australian Foreign Minister calls for new election in Thailand
LiesFrom Bangkok:
Exactly! This situation brings out the worst and clearest example of the failure of the Thai educational system. Thai education fails to teach student to look at the situation, process and produce a thought. They fail to teach student a proper thinking process. Also, a group of international school students or those who studied abroad are stuck with the old paradigm of reasoning. Again, the people running (most) of the education in Thailand are the produce of the current society/current ‘way of thinking’.
London discussion of Thailand’s political turmoil
Andrew or Nich
The above link to the Ungpakorn/Cunningham debate covers the basic disagreements among so many over the left’s position on the red shirts it’s probably worth putting the link as a separate post. Up to you of course.
20 May 1992
Stuart Goddard #35 :
“what the king really thinks of his people, read the disgraceful book he wrote – notionally about his dog but really about ‘his’ people. This is just one long metaphor about the behaviour he expects from his Thai subjects, and the relationship between himself and them. It is an interesting and very revealing read, but I imagine you haven’t read it yet, because you are evidently not outraged.”
And by comparison the Crown Prince promotes Captain Fufu !
I fail to see what people have against the CP.
Former Australian Foreign Minister calls for new election in Thailand
You guys are being selectively blocked in Thailand. When they started blocking this? I read it couple of weeks ago but it is now not accessible.
I am actually amazed that they went to the trouble of blocking only this page and not the whole /newmandala -part. For once Thai censors have been doing something “properly”.
Blocked:
http://www.newmandala.org/2010/04/23/why-king-vajiralongkorn-will-be-good-for-thai-democracy
London discussion of Thailand’s political turmoil
-Suzi Wong
Interesting and well informed comments you make.
20 May 1992
I have read all comments after mine and feel like im an elite completely. Hmmm I felt good that since the first time i was born in this life, now im an elite who doesnt know what the poor or unprivileged people think. That feel good cos I was born in Buriram,province that has high portion of poor people in Thailand, My family is based on agriculture livving, and my life ,as i remember, relate to very suburb life with poor farmers all around my land, thts why i feel good when you said im elite.Thank you.
I always listen to the principle of red shirt whenever i have chance to do so, read many philosophy books about people revolutuion which i can them so easily in law library and watch news like you guys here, I think the only difference is that i came from that “marginal people” for real. Its no point to say about this, at first i think that, till Athita told me that im an elite and my comments is quite worthless as it come from an elite.
Question is what is elite and what is marginal people? can i include middle class in BKK with Marginal people? or if Im elite, what should i think about this situation? and as a poor man what should i think? Should I think as same as you as a poor man? if I think something differ from you, am i still be poor man or marginal people as i am now?
The only reason why i told you guys to learn more about this country is you wont have any close chance to know about Thai if you just read books or listen to one of poor men and women who came here in BKK to protest, which i can say, most of them came here with promise from politicians and firebrands. You have to understand basic culture, opinion, the way we think, and you are sure that you know?
And if you are still sure about this, there are many questions left as
Do you really know what are my people requesting for?
Is that the real need of people in Esaan or almost of Marginal people in Thailand?
Do you have the number of people to support you comment?
It seems like you have a lot of information about Thai monarch and poor people who suffered from this regime, then, how can you be sure that your information is right??
Are you in those situations?
Are you here in my area to suffer with poor men and women?
And as I read comments aboved, I cant include what is the real purposeof this topic. Do you want Thailand to convert to republic state? Without Monarch? Ruled by President? Like which country? France? Laos? USA? Poland? Russia? Germany? Is that suit for my country , for my society?
This questions you cant deny to answer, if you think you know for real (you fail at this factor already) and you want to change, then which thing you would like to change to, furthermore you sure that it is suit for this country…I hope you realise that the elite system in England or Usa or another country is different from each others and is not a ready-to-eat system for the rest countries on this earth.
Back to the first question…How can you know that the information you wrote down here , without any of real obviously source, is true?
I understand and believe in freedom of speech, but I still believe that people has to take responsibility on what he or she speak out too.
Thanks for reading.
Burning, curfew
Peter:
See Ricky’s answer above.
London discussion of Thailand’s political turmoil
A very interesting recent debate between Giles Ungpakorn and Philip Cunningham on a US TV station. Shows there is more than one opinion on the left among the academics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-PPpGScujQ
Really is worth watching, but probably will not change anyone’s personal opinions. Funny bit is where Giles accuses Cunningham of bandying around the term ‘fascist’ without understanding the meaning of the word and then within a minute is using it himself. I guess we are all guilty of that 😉
Commentary on roots of the Thai crisis
@ Andrew Walker #21. Where is your own economic analysis?
20 May 1992
@ Suzzie Wong:
“My main issue is the Queen is the main player yet she has no formal political title to take any responsibility. Furthermore, the lese majeste law prohibits and punishes the discussion of the key player. Aphisit is only the de jure while the Queen is the de facto power behind the scene.
It would be a waste of time to discuss about Aphisit because he has never been a decision maker.
Indeed.
I was asked on another thread what I thought the ‘falling out’ between mummy and Son was about. The truth is I don’t know, but drawing on what I do know, and projecting that forward, I would say that Mummy does not want son as king. I would suggest she wants to skip a generation with herself/Prem as regent. probably Prem was the first choice with herself pulling the strings and basking in the imagined adulation of the masses, but he is old and allegedly sick (though he might just be hiding).
It is commonly believed that Mummy wants absolute power. It is well known that she believes she is the reincarnation of the legendary Queen Suryothai, and it seems likely that in this rather twisted imaginary scenario, she now wants to claim her rightful place in the Thai nation.
Nobody is asking why the King is still in hospital after some 9 months… conveniently out of the way perhaps? Or for security?
Thailand has many, many rumours, it’s a favoured form of entertainment for Thais. But rumours often have a basis in fact, and what eventually becomes the rumour is often the interpretation or an enlargement built on fact. A persistent rumour concerning the Thai royal family is that when the king dies, the CP is likely to be quickly assassinated to prevent him ascending to the throne, and this is why in times of health crisis of the king, the CP generally goes offshore quite quickly. Another rumour is of a long-standing (or perhaps just old) improper relationship between the queen and Prem, who is generally regarded as having 5-bob each way as far as his sexuality os concerned. He is certainly known to be a favourite of the queen.
All is not, apparently, sweetness and light in the ‘semi-divine’ royal family, and to the extent that the CP is known to be a philanderer with some very unsavoury predelictions, one can feel justified in asking where the genes came from.
Burning, curfew
The Red demand has been for:
1. Dissolution of the parliament now (thereby depriving the present government of the chance to pass another budget which no doubt would include huge handouts for the military) and
2. A general election. Then the incoming government could choose the new head of the army to ensure, hopefully, not another coup is mounted against it.
A November election would frustrate both these aims and I cannot understand how the Reds could have taken the offer seriously. Of course now we know Abhisit did not put forward the offer in good faith.