It strikes me we are looking in the wrong direction.
Shouldn’t we be thinking about how to establish an independent public inquiry into the violence – from the state, and the protesters. How could this be carried out? What would be the role for the National Human Rights Commission? Would there be a role for the UN?
And then we need to address the question of reconciliation – and then to actually addressing the deep seated political and social problems that Thailand now faces.
I know some in this forum advocate armed struggle. I am heartened to see that Veera maintains his commitment to non violence.
Mikeize,
Yes, it is true. It is difficult to put myself in the protesters position. I can only write from my own perspective, having lived here for 13 years.
I was pissed off about the yellow shirt campaign as well. As far as I know, Abhisit was not involved in the campaign and came to power
afterwards. Like all Thai leaders he does not have complete control of the government or armed force and I would guess any move to punish the yellow leaders would see him out of the job, and someone less moderate installed. . I feel he is someone who really has
Thailand’s best interests at heart and is doing the best he can in a impossible situation – he is stuffed whatever he does. I can’t see how people can call him a fascist. Given the choice between him and the red shirt leaders (who seem to been espousing a doctrine of hatred) I prefer the former. I just hope Abhisit can offer something concrete to the red supporters.
– Don’t think Chamlong was particularly humbled by the royal audience in 1992. The advice to set aside differences really applied to Suchinda because Chamlong had already been detained for two or three days at that point on Suchinda’s orders without any news or contact with the outside world. While he was responsible for leading protestors to their deaths, there wasn’t much he could have done to stop things from prison.
– @ Polo. Prathep is in fact beleived to have played a leading role in 1992. She was in Spain and, having seen a smuggled film of attrocities being committed by the army, called her father to alert him.
– @ Jim Taylor. More tiresome cracked gramaphone stuff about Prem, who is 88. When he goes and you still don’t like the situation, who will you blame then? What could the CRES have possibly gained from massacring 600 people in the temple? Your revolutionary zeal seems to be distorting your vision. Veera has just exhorted the reds to return to his original principals of non-violence. How about you? Still thirsting for blood like Thaksin and the crackpot Jakaphob hiding in Phnom Penh?
@ Erewhon Please leave this thread alone. Your government has its run of controlling,blocking and censoring information in Thailand already. Forget about trying to paint the reds in an any worse picture than they have been portrayed already. Your privy councel,military backed government are the true terrorists and thugs in this. It may work on you and the so called “educated middle class thais” but it will not work on free thinking people who can freely find their own sources of fair and balanced information, and make up their own minds. Your comments are clearly not appreciated here.
I wonder what Jim Taylor thinks of Prof. Downer making these remarks? Who would have thought the bell tolls for both ‘Robert Jordan’ and the silver spoon?!
Downer obviously don`t know enough about the situation in Thailand. As a foreign student in Bangkok I feel like I have been able to see the problem from both a Thai and western view and I think Stephen Young got a lot of good points in this clip; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8ErOdS3wVs
The middle/upper class Thais who are so anti-Red Shirts underwent a longer time of brain washing as they spent more year in the Thai educational system. This system does not encourage critical thinking and is designed to maintain the status quo. Many of my Thai friends are just not able to even consider views that are not in line with the mainstream views. Even the slightest deviation from this is seen as a challenge and usually met with the “argument” that we farang’s are not able to understand the complexities of Thai society and therefore should keep quiet. It then always ends “….you just have to accept that this is Thailand”
Thailand politically is changed forever. There will be no return.
This government has virtually destroyed the country to keep itself and its attendant opportunists in power. Siam Square, burned down; Central World, burned down; Center One, burned down Big C, heavily damaged – major arson all over the city. So sad. So avoidable.
The economic damage will be in the billions. The investment damage, unfathomable, and rending of the social fabric, irreversible – just so this minority of elite sycophants attempt to hold on to power.
All could have been avoided – just to have let the people vote. But then, there was, after all, a military “government” and then two consecutive elected governments removed by an approved court. Governor Samak was removed from the premiership for doing a cooking show on TV. Unbelievable!
Then there were the abominable yellow shirts that held government house for months and then closed the international airport. Not one of these insurrectionists went to jail.
While Thaksin was in power, this country was making progress. The IMF was repaid, social systems initiated, and in-spite of his alleged venal ways, 60% of the Thai people loved him. Many say the proximate cause of his downfall was not his graft, but the plain fact of his huge popularity and that he would not pay obeisance to the certain persons of high station in the Thai constellation.
The Thailand we love may be lost forever. Lost because the powers that be fractured the social contract. This terrible loss might well have been avoided had they capitulated and held a snap election.
I guess, given the alternatives, the question is: did the fateful decisions that this government made, in these last critical days, benefit the Kingdom?
The answer, I think is self evident. What a terrible price they paid. Again, so sad; so avoidable.
I would like anyone to explain how the following definition does NOT apply to the Red-Shirts: “Terrorism: the unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political …reasons.”
I found from Thai enews website yesterday. I think this is true. Kasien Techapeera, a Thai academic, said ..essentially what the reds were doing –whether you called it people’s revolts, wars or fights, etc, was the fundamental truth that “they are willing to die, but they are not willing to be governed by YOU!!.. when they have no fears, they rise up and say that they cannot tolerate it any more!!”
If you are cornered and have no where else to stand in this society, the only thing you would do is to fight!! This is what is happening. The underprivileged have been coerced, oppressed, beaten, killed, previously quietly, now openly– and they are fighting back in their own ways. When negotiations were not given a chance to succeed by Abhisit, violence begets violence. Abhisit has no one to blame except himself!! His government is a failure with no skills in public administration, whatsoever!!
The use of violence by anyone is certainly sad but in certain situations necessary and unavoidable. This appears to be one of those certain situations; when those holding power are so intent on maintaining the status quo they refuse to play by the rules. As you rightly said in the article, this has been going on for many years.
Is it plausible the only thing separating the UDD hardliners from the moderates is something as simple as their level of tolerance? After the political games of the past 4 years the hardliners have finally said enough of the political wrangling, negotiation and elections. They have determined the only way for permanant change to take place a path of violence.
With each new instance of rule breaking and unequal treatment under the law the established elite power base is pushing more of their opponents past their level of tolerance. At a certain point, there is too few (or no one) left supporting an opinion to negotiate with the opposition. At that instance their options are to either live with the inequality or fight. In a nutshell, it is this type of situation which has led to revolutions.
Many people inside and outside Thailand point out, as you have, that the rural poor are in better financial shape today than they’ve been in the past (although, as you also pointed out, the gap between the wealthy and poor has been growing). Perhaps if these critics lived the life of someone on the receiving end of institutionalized injustice they’d have a different opinion. Can anyone honestly say different standards are not being applied to people on opposite sides of the political line?
**In other words, it’s not just all about money. As you rightly pointed out, the reds have played by the rules and have won, only to have the elites utilize the military or political tactic to again gain the upper hand. It now appears the red shirts are tired of playing this game and brought out their own rulebook.
(**Note: One repeated argument is the rural poor will sell their vote to the highest bidder. What those backing the elites will never acknowledged is the documented and reported accounts that this also takes place in Bangkok and that the practice is a tool all political parties use.)
Mr Downer shows that he has no understanding of the situation in Thailand, and would be better served by dealing with some of the many red necks causing social problems in his own country.
Mr Downer do you still think Thaksin is very popular??? now that BKK is burning, he bought votes with stolen money, even Australia has moved on from it’s criminal past, give Thailand a chance to rid it’s self of corruption, and improve the lot of the rural people in a genuine way.
i put it down to strings, pulled by the Supreme Puppet Master Prem; maybe they dont have as much power as we thought to act autonomously outside the massive military & civil bureaucracy, or…
Some latest for readers in case not up to date:
*24 provinces plus mukdahaan and kalasin declared state of emergence and curfew
*Mukdahan burned both new and old sala-klaang; Chiangmai burned the municipal fire brigades; yellow biased educational institutions are targeted like Rajabhat inUbon – now surrounded by reds…
*At 1.30 today Reds in Kalasin announced “stop being Thai” and set up a table for Isaan folk to hand in their Thai ID cards {now this is really significant!}
*In Prachatai (р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╣Др╕Ч Thai version) Newin’s controlled Min of Interior ordered 38 provinces to organise armed thugs to mobilise in red shirt areas/Headlines only now appear: р╕бр╕Ч. р╕кр╕▒р╣Ир╕З 38 р╕Ир╕▒р╕Зр╕лр╕зр╕▒р╕Фр╕Ир╕▒р╕Фр╕бр╣Зр╕нр╕Ър╕Кр╕Щр╣Гр╕Щр╕Юр╕╖р╣Йр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕кр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╣Бр╕Фр╕З [readers may recall they did this a couple of years back]
*600 women & children in wat Pathum when fire took place and 9 people died/As this time no help or assistance because CRES has not allow anyone to take them to hospital..CRES, it is speculated, intend to kill remaining folk/
*As we anticipated and eye witness accounts last night, Govt planted military weapons in two main sites and exposed these today to the media to show that their actions were justified…
*On their facebook Vera and Korkaew will surrender today
(may have done already).
The myth of a royal peacemaker is just that, a myth. Well stage-managed I will grant but a myth, only designed to increase the legend.
The truth (as pointed out by Handley and Ungpakorn), is that in 1992, the King waited to see which way the wind was blowing before deciding on what to do. It had nothing whatever to do with the good of the Thai people, and everything to do with the good of the King.
This time there is no intervention, probably because it is the King and Queen who have been Abhsisit’s handlers.
They will cast him aside in a heartbeat when their purpose is served, and their purpose is survival of the monarchy. Which is frankly in doubt if one listens to the way Thais are talking.
Talk of a falling out between Mum and son is also widespread. Son is getting impatient for power, Mum wants something else.
Did the prince and Phra Thep play any role in 1992? She came on TV to call for peace, and that did nothing. He travelled (?fled?) to, I think, South Korea. Maybe he sent a message of peace too. But really, there was absolutely no role.
The problem is that the monarchy has advertised itself as having a great record at resolving conflicts of its Thai children, but you have 1973, and 1992, and then… what? Twice in 64 years? Will thais wonder where their peacemakers have gone? No, they know the king is infirm, and they don’t assume any others in the palace can fix things. They don’t know who to look to. And that’s the problem.
Meanwhile, perhaps being a little nasty, can I ask Andrew and Nicholas to go back several weeks to that post about Thailand having achieved a consensus against violence and ask youselves — in a post — “What were we thinking?”
Jim Taylor# 9 “Seems however that fascists/falangists just invaded Wat Pathum which was declared a sanctionary and shot dead one person (300 are stuck there); 20 Nor Por Chor women and men killed near Henri Dunant Road- Reds they cannot retrieve their bodies/& etc.”
I’ve heard rumours that many of the killings during the last few weeks we’re commited by Thaksin’s black shirt militia in order to ‘guarantee’ martyrs. Perhaps they are true? Perhaps you are a little hasty in apportioning blame in the absence independantly verifiable facts?
Are you able to provide credible evidence to show that 20 people were killed near Henri Dunant Road? Are you sure that 100’s weren’t killed as you asserted during the Song Kran riots last year? Or have I missed the point? Is New Mandala just a cosy hang out for those who like to concoct elaborate conspiracy theories and share fictional accounts of the goings on in fantasy Thailand?
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Burning, curfew
“fascists/falangists just invaded Wat Pathum”
No one invaded the temple. People trying to leave were shot.
The whole stretch from Central to Siam Square was a no go zone both for medics and firefighters.
20 May 1992
It strikes me we are looking in the wrong direction.
Shouldn’t we be thinking about how to establish an independent public inquiry into the violence – from the state, and the protesters. How could this be carried out? What would be the role for the National Human Rights Commission? Would there be a role for the UN?
And then we need to address the question of reconciliation – and then to actually addressing the deep seated political and social problems that Thailand now faces.
I know some in this forum advocate armed struggle. I am heartened to see that Veera maintains his commitment to non violence.
Burning, curfew
Mikeize,
Yes, it is true. It is difficult to put myself in the protesters position. I can only write from my own perspective, having lived here for 13 years.
I was pissed off about the yellow shirt campaign as well. As far as I know, Abhisit was not involved in the campaign and came to power
afterwards. Like all Thai leaders he does not have complete control of the government or armed force and I would guess any move to punish the yellow leaders would see him out of the job, and someone less moderate installed. . I feel he is someone who really has
Thailand’s best interests at heart and is doing the best he can in a impossible situation – he is stuffed whatever he does. I can’t see how people can call him a fascist. Given the choice between him and the red shirt leaders (who seem to been espousing a doctrine of hatred) I prefer the former. I just hope Abhisit can offer something concrete to the red supporters.
20 May 1992
– Don’t think Chamlong was particularly humbled by the royal audience in 1992. The advice to set aside differences really applied to Suchinda because Chamlong had already been detained for two or three days at that point on Suchinda’s orders without any news or contact with the outside world. While he was responsible for leading protestors to their deaths, there wasn’t much he could have done to stop things from prison.
– @ Polo. Prathep is in fact beleived to have played a leading role in 1992. She was in Spain and, having seen a smuggled film of attrocities being committed by the army, called her father to alert him.
– @ Jim Taylor. More tiresome cracked gramaphone stuff about Prem, who is 88. When he goes and you still don’t like the situation, who will you blame then? What could the CRES have possibly gained from massacring 600 people in the temple? Your revolutionary zeal seems to be distorting your vision. Veera has just exhorted the reds to return to his original principals of non-violence. How about you? Still thirsting for blood like Thaksin and the crackpot Jakaphob hiding in Phnom Penh?
Burning, curfew
@ Erewhon Please leave this thread alone. Your government has its run of controlling,blocking and censoring information in Thailand already. Forget about trying to paint the reds in an any worse picture than they have been portrayed already. Your privy councel,military backed government are the true terrorists and thugs in this. It may work on you and the so called “educated middle class thais” but it will not work on free thinking people who can freely find their own sources of fair and balanced information, and make up their own minds. Your comments are clearly not appreciated here.
Commentary on roots of the Thai crisis
turned on CNN, ABC, BBC and what did I see? Thaksin, Thaksin, Thaksin, or his lawyer Amsterdam. Interviews, blogs, tweets, etc.
You just don’t get it.
Former Australian Foreign Minister calls for new election in Thailand
I wonder what Jim Taylor thinks of Prof. Downer making these remarks? Who would have thought the bell tolls for both ‘Robert Jordan’ and the silver spoon?!
Must be an Adelaide red brick clique.
Former Australian Foreign Minister calls for new election in Thailand
Downer obviously don`t know enough about the situation in Thailand. As a foreign student in Bangkok I feel like I have been able to see the problem from both a Thai and western view and I think Stephen Young got a lot of good points in this clip; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8ErOdS3wVs
Former Australian Foreign Minister calls for new election in Thailand
Chalie,
The middle/upper class Thais who are so anti-Red Shirts underwent a longer time of brain washing as they spent more year in the Thai educational system. This system does not encourage critical thinking and is designed to maintain the status quo. Many of my Thai friends are just not able to even consider views that are not in line with the mainstream views. Even the slightest deviation from this is seen as a challenge and usually met with the “argument” that we farang’s are not able to understand the complexities of Thai society and therefore should keep quiet. It then always ends “….you just have to accept that this is Thailand”
Commentary on roots of the Thai crisis
Thailand politically is changed forever. There will be no return.
This government has virtually destroyed the country to keep itself and its attendant opportunists in power. Siam Square, burned down; Central World, burned down; Center One, burned down Big C, heavily damaged – major arson all over the city. So sad. So avoidable.
The economic damage will be in the billions. The investment damage, unfathomable, and rending of the social fabric, irreversible – just so this minority of elite sycophants attempt to hold on to power.
All could have been avoided – just to have let the people vote. But then, there was, after all, a military “government” and then two consecutive elected governments removed by an approved court. Governor Samak was removed from the premiership for doing a cooking show on TV. Unbelievable!
Then there were the abominable yellow shirts that held government house for months and then closed the international airport. Not one of these insurrectionists went to jail.
While Thaksin was in power, this country was making progress. The IMF was repaid, social systems initiated, and in-spite of his alleged venal ways, 60% of the Thai people loved him. Many say the proximate cause of his downfall was not his graft, but the plain fact of his huge popularity and that he would not pay obeisance to the certain persons of high station in the Thai constellation.
The Thailand we love may be lost forever. Lost because the powers that be fractured the social contract. This terrible loss might well have been avoided had they capitulated and held a snap election.
I guess, given the alternatives, the question is: did the fateful decisions that this government made, in these last critical days, benefit the Kingdom?
The answer, I think is self evident. What a terrible price they paid. Again, so sad; so avoidable.
Burning, curfew
I would like anyone to explain how the following definition does NOT apply to the Red-Shirts: “Terrorism: the unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political …reasons.”
And if you are not sure watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M9XiJoWSSs
(arisaman urge mob to burn bkk_1.mpg)
Burning, curfew
I found from Thai enews website yesterday. I think this is true. Kasien Techapeera, a Thai academic, said ..essentially what the reds were doing –whether you called it people’s revolts, wars or fights, etc, was the fundamental truth that “they are willing to die, but they are not willing to be governed by YOU!!.. when they have no fears, they rise up and say that they cannot tolerate it any more!!”
If you are cornered and have no where else to stand in this society, the only thing you would do is to fight!! This is what is happening. The underprivileged have been coerced, oppressed, beaten, killed, previously quietly, now openly– and they are fighting back in their own ways. When negotiations were not given a chance to succeed by Abhisit, violence begets violence. Abhisit has no one to blame except himself!! His government is a failure with no skills in public administration, whatsoever!!
Commentary on roots of the Thai crisis
Nicholas & Andrew,
Great articles.
The use of violence by anyone is certainly sad but in certain situations necessary and unavoidable. This appears to be one of those certain situations; when those holding power are so intent on maintaining the status quo they refuse to play by the rules. As you rightly said in the article, this has been going on for many years.
Is it plausible the only thing separating the UDD hardliners from the moderates is something as simple as their level of tolerance? After the political games of the past 4 years the hardliners have finally said enough of the political wrangling, negotiation and elections. They have determined the only way for permanant change to take place a path of violence.
With each new instance of rule breaking and unequal treatment under the law the established elite power base is pushing more of their opponents past their level of tolerance. At a certain point, there is too few (or no one) left supporting an opinion to negotiate with the opposition. At that instance their options are to either live with the inequality or fight. In a nutshell, it is this type of situation which has led to revolutions.
Many people inside and outside Thailand point out, as you have, that the rural poor are in better financial shape today than they’ve been in the past (although, as you also pointed out, the gap between the wealthy and poor has been growing). Perhaps if these critics lived the life of someone on the receiving end of institutionalized injustice they’d have a different opinion. Can anyone honestly say different standards are not being applied to people on opposite sides of the political line?
**In other words, it’s not just all about money. As you rightly pointed out, the reds have played by the rules and have won, only to have the elites utilize the military or political tactic to again gain the upper hand. It now appears the red shirts are tired of playing this game and brought out their own rulebook.
(**Note: One repeated argument is the rural poor will sell their vote to the highest bidder. What those backing the elites will never acknowledged is the documented and reported accounts that this also takes place in Bangkok and that the practice is a tool all political parties use.)
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
I guess in the minds of Supapong and StanG, Burma is a stable country.
Former Australian Foreign Minister calls for new election in Thailand
Mr Downer shows that he has no understanding of the situation in Thailand, and would be better served by dealing with some of the many red necks causing social problems in his own country.
Mr Downer do you still think Thaksin is very popular??? now that BKK is burning, he bought votes with stolen money, even Australia has moved on from it’s criminal past, give Thailand a chance to rid it’s self of corruption, and improve the lot of the rural people in a genuine way.
20 May 1992
i put it down to strings, pulled by the Supreme Puppet Master Prem; maybe they dont have as much power as we thought to act autonomously outside the massive military & civil bureaucracy, or…
Some latest for readers in case not up to date:
*24 provinces plus mukdahaan and kalasin declared state of emergence and curfew
*Mukdahan burned both new and old sala-klaang; Chiangmai burned the municipal fire brigades; yellow biased educational institutions are targeted like Rajabhat inUbon – now surrounded by reds…
*At 1.30 today Reds in Kalasin announced “stop being Thai” and set up a table for Isaan folk to hand in their Thai ID cards {now this is really significant!}
*In Prachatai (р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Кр╕▓р╣Др╕Ч Thai version) Newin’s controlled Min of Interior ordered 38 provinces to organise armed thugs to mobilise in red shirt areas/Headlines only now appear: р╕бр╕Ч. р╕кр╕▒р╣Ир╕З 38 р╕Ир╕▒р╕Зр╕лр╕зр╕▒р╕Фр╕Ир╕▒р╕Фр╕бр╣Зр╕нр╕Ър╕Кр╕Щр╣Гр╕Щр╕Юр╕╖р╣Йр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕кр╕╖р╣Йр╕нр╣Бр╕Фр╕З [readers may recall they did this a couple of years back]
*600 women & children in wat Pathum when fire took place and 9 people died/As this time no help or assistance because CRES has not allow anyone to take them to hospital..CRES, it is speculated, intend to kill remaining folk/
*As we anticipated and eye witness accounts last night, Govt planted military weapons in two main sites and exposed these today to the media to show that their actions were justified…
*On their facebook Vera and Korkaew will surrender today
(may have done already).
Chaos, curfew and confusion
Athita 17 – I followed your link and got…this
Access to this information. Suspended temporarily
By virtue.
Emergency Decree on Public Administration.
In emergency situations, BE 2548.
The command center of the emergency situation.
In big red letters.
20 May 1992
The myth of a royal peacemaker is just that, a myth. Well stage-managed I will grant but a myth, only designed to increase the legend.
The truth (as pointed out by Handley and Ungpakorn), is that in 1992, the King waited to see which way the wind was blowing before deciding on what to do. It had nothing whatever to do with the good of the Thai people, and everything to do with the good of the King.
This time there is no intervention, probably because it is the King and Queen who have been Abhsisit’s handlers.
They will cast him aside in a heartbeat when their purpose is served, and their purpose is survival of the monarchy. Which is frankly in doubt if one listens to the way Thais are talking.
Talk of a falling out between Mum and son is also widespread. Son is getting impatient for power, Mum wants something else.
20 May 1992
Did the prince and Phra Thep play any role in 1992? She came on TV to call for peace, and that did nothing. He travelled (?fled?) to, I think, South Korea. Maybe he sent a message of peace too. But really, there was absolutely no role.
The problem is that the monarchy has advertised itself as having a great record at resolving conflicts of its Thai children, but you have 1973, and 1992, and then… what? Twice in 64 years? Will thais wonder where their peacemakers have gone? No, they know the king is infirm, and they don’t assume any others in the palace can fix things. They don’t know who to look to. And that’s the problem.
Meanwhile, perhaps being a little nasty, can I ask Andrew and Nicholas to go back several weeks to that post about Thailand having achieved a consensus against violence and ask youselves — in a post — “What were we thinking?”
Burning, curfew
Jim Taylor# 9 “Seems however that fascists/falangists just invaded Wat Pathum which was declared a sanctionary and shot dead one person (300 are stuck there); 20 Nor Por Chor women and men killed near Henri Dunant Road- Reds they cannot retrieve their bodies/& etc.”
I’ve heard rumours that many of the killings during the last few weeks we’re commited by Thaksin’s black shirt militia in order to ‘guarantee’ martyrs. Perhaps they are true? Perhaps you are a little hasty in apportioning blame in the absence independantly verifiable facts?
Are you able to provide credible evidence to show that 20 people were killed near Henri Dunant Road? Are you sure that 100’s weren’t killed as you asserted during the Song Kran riots last year? Or have I missed the point? Is New Mandala just a cosy hang out for those who like to concoct elaborate conspiracy theories and share fictional accounts of the goings on in fantasy Thailand?