Downer is in a position to indicate what most Australian Members of Parliament think about the situation in Thailand, without the diplomatic repercussions that would follow if the Australian Government were to say it.
Lots of Americans hated Bush but they didn’t burn Washington, they waited for the elections, they waited for eight years.
Reds burned Bangkok because they couldn’t wait eight months.
Pardon me, but people must be delusional to think that all this chaos was only about tweaking an election date as they insisted during negotiations back in March.
When the reporter says someone sounds like an obviously biased person (Amsterdam), that sounds like how you try to discredit Downer.
Something that is lost in all of this is the constitutional changes that Abhisit wanted to pass before his Novemeber “election” which would have made it easier for him to control things.
It is terrible to read the opinion articles in the local media (Ilive in Thailand) calling for the gov’t to stomp the protest out and to use any and all force necessary.
For those who think this is an elected government, You cannot help but notice that Abhisit’s gov’t was chosen by a parliamentary vote as a result of the dissolution of the Thaksin allied party. the dissolution of said party resulted in at least 2 dozen of Abhisit’s opponents being banned from office. I wonder how many voted for him out of fear of their futures?
@pff123, don’t forget that in 1992 the Crown Prince did intervene.
First Princess Sirindhorn went on national TV asking for peace. Soon afterwards on the same day, the Crown Prince went on the air saying more of less the same thing. Finally, the King went on the air with the principals on their knees.
Andrew is right on point in WSJ! Even if you don’t talk about everything, he’s talking about he actual reasons Thais refuse to listen/process and fail to understand.
Stang, from your statement, the protestors themselves have shown their strong commitment by sacrificing their own lives for the core of demacratic process which is called “election.” What have the Thai government shown by the way? A commitment to sacrifice its people’s lives as necessary, including those innocents, to delay the election?
I understood that from the very beginning PM Abhisit offered to hold new elections on Nov. 14th. But I don’t think Australians will be allowed to vote in that election.
The Thai Army and a Thai government has engaged in the firing of live ammunition to kill civilians.
This is a fact and must be dealt with in the weeks and months ahead.
The April 10th incident appears to be where 2 army factions had a fight and why a few soldiers were killed, it was nothing to do with the reds its seems, that was pure army on army and the reds were in the middle of it.
Since April 10th there has been little action against soldiers which proves the statement that April 10th was army factions fighting in the midst of reds.
Therefore the use of live ammunition, the use of snipers with head shots to kill and everything else that happened has been a massive travesty and against basic human rights.
Abhisit/Suthep and others must be brought to task in International courts for these acts.
As can be seen now the government just wants to stay in power to pass the budget (and award lots of big money projects to their supporters ready to pay to “vote buy” in the next election) and to oversee the “military reshuffles in September.
They care not the people want them out, they care not they have to kill many civilians, all they want is to stay in power until October at the latest. By that time they will have feathered their nests and appointed their friends in top army positions – and so they will have the option of vote buying from the money, and if that fails they can call on their friends to hold a coup should PTP win the election and not them.
This is the key thing the worlds media should focus on.
Watch now for massive corruption in the budget, big money projects that will be awarded to government coalition “friends and supporters”.
Watch now for their friends to be put into high army positions, ready to call a coup in the years after the next election.
Thailand is a mess, it remains a mess and whilst the Yellows are so corrupt and powerful, it will always be a mess.
as far as i’m concerned people like Kriangsak as Mark’s mouth have to be accountable for the unnecessary loss of life and blood shed; even the Thai Senators (& even those handpicked by the 2006 coup-makers) are now trying to distance themselves from the bloodbath inside the sanctity of Wat Pathum, and in the streets of Bangkok- against unarmed protestors. it was a massacre, on whatever scale of comparison and a crime against humanity. Let’s follow closely how those thousands of ordinary Thais currently held in Mark’s jail, and its core leaders are treated. Lets insist on them being released. Arisman never arrived on the way to a military camp outside Bangkok. Lets keep pressuring the fascist state into complying with international procedures and human rights.
What Downer said is more or less accurate. But what he missed was the fact that Abhisit was never elected by the people, then he could never be re-elected.
With the current situation, it is really depressing how the general Thais reacts to it. Most Thais, especially those of middle/upper class who have platform to voice their opinion on web2.0 (ie: facebook) sees the Red Shirts as nuisance and disrupting the ‘peaceful’ life they had. This educated group of people, many are young privileges studying abroad, fail to sees the underlining conflict of the situation.
The govt has just turned protestors into “terrorists” by its action. This is not the outcome that anyone should wish for. The frustration and anger has simply got to the point where the “reptalian” brain takes over the concious brain. There are only two outcome from this – go into the foetus postion and cry or go mad!
I guess a few of the red shirts has gone mad. Happy now?
The article was good, but like Jit says (#3) you don’t make any comment on the Red shirt use of violence to achieve ends.
Maybe this is worth a study in itself?
Yesterday’s senseless mayhem has done a lot of damage, to any “people’s movement” taking serious hold in Thailand, for a long time.
We can all only hope, whoever takes the reigns of power in Thailand, will have the guts to address the obvious underlying and major issues.
It seems, the country is once again crying out for a leader to take the people forward – particularly now, “daddy can’t fix”. The problem is, all Thai leaders of this type, so far, have only done for the people when it suits (so they can line their pockets), and/or it helps win elections.
Mick, I made no insulting remarks about the Redshirts and your language is intemperate. Law and order must return. Business must resume. Reds and Yellows should be prosecuted. The government should impliment real solutions to bring economic advancement to the provinces. But in supporting Thaksin unconditionally (as you obviously do) you conveniently disregard his corruption and abuse of power during fiove years of office. And if he returns, it will be multiplied. There will be elections this year or next. But if Newin’s group (or other smaller parties) then decide to form a coalition with either Peua Thai or the Democrats, it’s also their decision, isn’t it? And I guess you would support ther right of smaller parties to ally with any other party they choose? BTW have just spoken to a client who has lost both his shops in Central World. Insurers have told him they will rely on the riot exclusion clause in the policy and he will get nothing. So, Mick, who should compensate him? Thaksin? The Naresuan seven? Thai taxpayers (that includes me, does it include you?)
DaveH, that was the impression I got from his words. If you try to legitimized people getting shot for speaking up/protesting, I doubt you give a damn about his well-being. Jit repeatedly says that the Reds are to blame for all the mess. In last Songkran’s “Disaster”, the gov didn’t even caught the one who planted the gastruck on Dindaeng. Same goes for most of the offense. Popular theory is that most of it was staged by Newin(we had some photo of him leaving the scene). Truth or not, no one was arrested for M79 shootings. Not now, not ever.
If there is a so-called ‘Black shirt’ groups that stems from the Reds, they’re doing the gov favors than their own.
The Junta gov of Surayuth expeience new year ‘bombings’ that had Bangkok changes its entire Garbage bin placed in the city. Not even one suspect had been caught and convicted of it. Bombing tactics are frequently used by the army to plant evidence of the other side’s ‘violent act’. So excuse us for not believing.
Pattaya summit was a different story, Reds stormed the buiding. But the curious part was the security who lead them in first. Why? It all seemed too convenient.
Same with the Chula hospital incident, there was never any acts of violence involved(nothing was destroyed), yet reports of ‘Red Thugs’ covered the headlines for weeks. Needless to say after some time, people were then shot by snipers positioned in this hospital again.
The Thai army might not seem much, but remember that they recieved training from the CIA & the US army. Now Uncle Sam might not like it, but this training is put to good use. The fight against Communism had turned into a period of oppression, that was not wasted training.
Given its dabbling in lies and propaganda, you can forgive the Reds for failing to trust Abhisit and his daddy long-legs a bit, won’t you?
Crowd control will always be difficult, people riding on an emotional high is hardly containable. Hooligans are prime examples, even in the west. Yet the blame falls on the protesters to assert control? Not the well trained, well funded, well equipt army?
To me, Jit seems to think that the events was well with in the Reds hand. Well, it wasn’t. Most of their demands weren’t met. Some ridiculed, some was dismissed before they even bought up.
Heck, if you must place a blame. You might as well place it on the man who can end it. I think you know fairly well who. But let’s not speak his name, for the safety of the Thais on this site, ok?
Alexander Downer, still a voice of ignorance.
He’s probably hoping the UN forces its way in and he is asked to take on a mediating role…
Thank goodness he’s no longer in government !
And, quoting Thaksin’s lawyer, Robert Amsterdam, just shows how much he knows about what is going on.
If anyone saw the Al Jazeera interview with Mr. Amsterdam, before yesterday’s mayhem, you will soon realize this guy is as ignorant of the facts, as is Alex.
Further, I guess you would expect he’d be critical of Stephen Smith (sour grapes).
I think even the most extreme views put forth in New Mandala posts are from people much more informed, than dear old Alex.
FYI, the US president is NOT directly elected by the people. It is the electoral college that chooses the president. This is why there have been a number of presidents who have still become president even though they lost the ‘popular vote.’
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Former Australian Foreign Minister calls for new election in Thailand
Downer is in a position to indicate what most Australian Members of Parliament think about the situation in Thailand, without the diplomatic repercussions that would follow if the Australian Government were to say it.
Burning, curfew
Lots of Americans hated Bush but they didn’t burn Washington, they waited for the elections, they waited for eight years.
Reds burned Bangkok because they couldn’t wait eight months.
Pardon me, but people must be delusional to think that all this chaos was only about tweaking an election date as they insisted during negotiations back in March.
Former Australian Foreign Minister calls for new election in Thailand
When the reporter says someone sounds like an obviously biased person (Amsterdam), that sounds like how you try to discredit Downer.
Something that is lost in all of this is the constitutional changes that Abhisit wanted to pass before his Novemeber “election” which would have made it easier for him to control things.
It is terrible to read the opinion articles in the local media (Ilive in Thailand) calling for the gov’t to stomp the protest out and to use any and all force necessary.
For those who think this is an elected government, You cannot help but notice that Abhisit’s gov’t was chosen by a parliamentary vote as a result of the dissolution of the Thaksin allied party. the dissolution of said party resulted in at least 2 dozen of Abhisit’s opponents being banned from office. I wonder how many voted for him out of fear of their futures?
20 May 1992
Hmm. I wonder if there’s something important that they need to tell the Thai people?
Chaos, curfew and confusion
I have interesting photos here of the weapons used by Thai soldiers.
http://saedang.freeforums.org/topic-t2186.html
Assumptions about the next in line
@pff123, don’t forget that in 1992 the Crown Prince did intervene.
First Princess Sirindhorn went on national TV asking for peace. Soon afterwards on the same day, the Crown Prince went on the air saying more of less the same thing. Finally, the King went on the air with the principals on their knees.
Former Australian Foreign Minister calls for new election in Thailand
Another quote:
Means an extremely partisan view, no matter the substance.
“Robert Amsterdam was saying” is the best way to discredit yourself here.
Good luck pushing it on Thai government.
Commentary on roots of the Thai crisis
Andrew is right on point in WSJ! Even if you don’t talk about everything, he’s talking about he actual reasons Thais refuse to listen/process and fail to understand.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Stang, from your statement, the protestors themselves have shown their strong commitment by sacrificing their own lives for the core of demacratic process which is called “election.” What have the Thai government shown by the way? A commitment to sacrifice its people’s lives as necessary, including those innocents, to delay the election?
Do you see any difference between the two?
Former Australian Foreign Minister calls for new election in Thailand
I understood that from the very beginning PM Abhisit offered to hold new elections on Nov. 14th. But I don’t think Australians will be allowed to vote in that election.
Chaos, curfew and confusion
The Thai Army and a Thai government has engaged in the firing of live ammunition to kill civilians.
This is a fact and must be dealt with in the weeks and months ahead.
The April 10th incident appears to be where 2 army factions had a fight and why a few soldiers were killed, it was nothing to do with the reds its seems, that was pure army on army and the reds were in the middle of it.
Since April 10th there has been little action against soldiers which proves the statement that April 10th was army factions fighting in the midst of reds.
Therefore the use of live ammunition, the use of snipers with head shots to kill and everything else that happened has been a massive travesty and against basic human rights.
Abhisit/Suthep and others must be brought to task in International courts for these acts.
As can be seen now the government just wants to stay in power to pass the budget (and award lots of big money projects to their supporters ready to pay to “vote buy” in the next election) and to oversee the “military reshuffles in September.
They care not the people want them out, they care not they have to kill many civilians, all they want is to stay in power until October at the latest. By that time they will have feathered their nests and appointed their friends in top army positions – and so they will have the option of vote buying from the money, and if that fails they can call on their friends to hold a coup should PTP win the election and not them.
This is the key thing the worlds media should focus on.
Watch now for massive corruption in the budget, big money projects that will be awarded to government coalition “friends and supporters”.
Watch now for their friends to be put into high army positions, ready to call a coup in the years after the next election.
Thailand is a mess, it remains a mess and whilst the Yellows are so corrupt and powerful, it will always be a mess.
Ambassador Kriangsak in the SMH
as far as i’m concerned people like Kriangsak as Mark’s mouth have to be accountable for the unnecessary loss of life and blood shed; even the Thai Senators (& even those handpicked by the 2006 coup-makers) are now trying to distance themselves from the bloodbath inside the sanctity of Wat Pathum, and in the streets of Bangkok- against unarmed protestors. it was a massacre, on whatever scale of comparison and a crime against humanity. Let’s follow closely how those thousands of ordinary Thais currently held in Mark’s jail, and its core leaders are treated. Lets insist on them being released. Arisman never arrived on the way to a military camp outside Bangkok. Lets keep pressuring the fascist state into complying with international procedures and human rights.
Former Australian Foreign Minister calls for new election in Thailand
What Downer said is more or less accurate. But what he missed was the fact that Abhisit was never elected by the people, then he could never be re-elected.
With the current situation, it is really depressing how the general Thais reacts to it. Most Thais, especially those of middle/upper class who have platform to voice their opinion on web2.0 (ie: facebook) sees the Red Shirts as nuisance and disrupting the ‘peaceful’ life they had. This educated group of people, many are young privileges studying abroad, fail to sees the underlining conflict of the situation.
Chaos, curfew and confusion
The govt has just turned protestors into “terrorists” by its action. This is not the outcome that anyone should wish for. The frustration and anger has simply got to the point where the “reptalian” brain takes over the concious brain. There are only two outcome from this – go into the foetus postion and cry or go mad!
I guess a few of the red shirts has gone mad. Happy now?
Commentary on roots of the Thai crisis
The article was good, but like Jit says (#3) you don’t make any comment on the Red shirt use of violence to achieve ends.
Maybe this is worth a study in itself?
Yesterday’s senseless mayhem has done a lot of damage, to any “people’s movement” taking serious hold in Thailand, for a long time.
We can all only hope, whoever takes the reigns of power in Thailand, will have the guts to address the obvious underlying and major issues.
It seems, the country is once again crying out for a leader to take the people forward – particularly now, “daddy can’t fix”. The problem is, all Thai leaders of this type, so far, have only done for the people when it suits (so they can line their pockets), and/or it helps win elections.
Former Australian Foreign Minister calls for new election in Thailand
GeGee,
Ignorant of the facts seems to mean, in this case, disagrees with you.
Burning, curfew
Mick, I made no insulting remarks about the Redshirts and your language is intemperate. Law and order must return. Business must resume. Reds and Yellows should be prosecuted. The government should impliment real solutions to bring economic advancement to the provinces. But in supporting Thaksin unconditionally (as you obviously do) you conveniently disregard his corruption and abuse of power during fiove years of office. And if he returns, it will be multiplied. There will be elections this year or next. But if Newin’s group (or other smaller parties) then decide to form a coalition with either Peua Thai or the Democrats, it’s also their decision, isn’t it? And I guess you would support ther right of smaller parties to ally with any other party they choose? BTW have just spoken to a client who has lost both his shops in Central World. Insurers have told him they will rely on the riot exclusion clause in the policy and he will get nothing. So, Mick, who should compensate him? Thaksin? The Naresuan seven? Thai taxpayers (that includes me, does it include you?)
Bangkok: This is a massacre
DaveH, that was the impression I got from his words. If you try to legitimized people getting shot for speaking up/protesting, I doubt you give a damn about his well-being. Jit repeatedly says that the Reds are to blame for all the mess. In last Songkran’s “Disaster”, the gov didn’t even caught the one who planted the gastruck on Dindaeng. Same goes for most of the offense. Popular theory is that most of it was staged by Newin(we had some photo of him leaving the scene). Truth or not, no one was arrested for M79 shootings. Not now, not ever.
If there is a so-called ‘Black shirt’ groups that stems from the Reds, they’re doing the gov favors than their own.
The Junta gov of Surayuth expeience new year ‘bombings’ that had Bangkok changes its entire Garbage bin placed in the city. Not even one suspect had been caught and convicted of it. Bombing tactics are frequently used by the army to plant evidence of the other side’s ‘violent act’. So excuse us for not believing.
Pattaya summit was a different story, Reds stormed the buiding. But the curious part was the security who lead them in first. Why? It all seemed too convenient.
Same with the Chula hospital incident, there was never any acts of violence involved(nothing was destroyed), yet reports of ‘Red Thugs’ covered the headlines for weeks. Needless to say after some time, people were then shot by snipers positioned in this hospital again.
The Thai army might not seem much, but remember that they recieved training from the CIA & the US army. Now Uncle Sam might not like it, but this training is put to good use. The fight against Communism had turned into a period of oppression, that was not wasted training.
Given its dabbling in lies and propaganda, you can forgive the Reds for failing to trust Abhisit and his daddy long-legs a bit, won’t you?
Crowd control will always be difficult, people riding on an emotional high is hardly containable. Hooligans are prime examples, even in the west. Yet the blame falls on the protesters to assert control? Not the well trained, well funded, well equipt army?
To me, Jit seems to think that the events was well with in the Reds hand. Well, it wasn’t. Most of their demands weren’t met. Some ridiculed, some was dismissed before they even bought up.
Heck, if you must place a blame. You might as well place it on the man who can end it. I think you know fairly well who. But let’s not speak his name, for the safety of the Thais on this site, ok?
Former Australian Foreign Minister calls for new election in Thailand
Alexander Downer, still a voice of ignorance.
He’s probably hoping the UN forces its way in and he is asked to take on a mediating role…
Thank goodness he’s no longer in government !
And, quoting Thaksin’s lawyer, Robert Amsterdam, just shows how much he knows about what is going on.
If anyone saw the Al Jazeera interview with Mr. Amsterdam, before yesterday’s mayhem, you will soon realize this guy is as ignorant of the facts, as is Alex.
Further, I guess you would expect he’d be critical of Stephen Smith (sour grapes).
I think even the most extreme views put forth in New Mandala posts are from people much more informed, than dear old Alex.
Commentary on roots of the Thai crisis
Mrs. Wong,
FYI, the US president is NOT directly elected by the people. It is the electoral college that chooses the president. This is why there have been a number of presidents who have still become president even though they lost the ‘popular vote.’