There are thousands of wounded people. Many of them are innocents, including medics and journalists. Are you sure that it is a reasonable result from selective firing?
Besides, you have already read this article, haven’t you? Is that what you actually call a case-by-case action?
Anyway, the point is that your government USED TO have a better way to deal with this, as I said in my previous posts. It’s the SINCERE promise for parliament dissolution. It is just unbelievable that your leader has decided to sacrifice so many lives for political stability, aka his own power.
It seems to me that all you are trying to say is “It’s not that bad,” but, as a matter of fact, this is bad enough by Western standard.
To Editor
We are thai people that interesting in Politic for more than 5 years and watch the bad guy Thaksin that urge the red shirt group to render the government Abhisit. With its own personal reason to come back again in Thailand and earn much money and power and last of all ,he expect to be a president of Thailand and make our king be as symbol . You can see today news about Bangkok as The Center World plaza and also The Siam square and many Banks in Bangkok be burnt simultaneously. Pl. be honestly report your news not just do it as funny things.
In Thailand, they disenfranchised 60% of the voters and removed their elected government by military coup. They then proceeded to remove two more elected governments – one, a very popular former Bangkok governor for cooking on television. Unbelievable.
After this insult, they refer to the majority as “uneducated, stupid buffaloes. Being called a buffalo in Thai is a grave insult.
Many ask, if this is all they want, why the resistance, why the fear of a popular vote, why the willingness to sacrifice innocent lives and seriously damage the nation?
So, as the casualties mount, the question begs an answer; Why not allow the people the right to vote?
It’s worth a quote from German Field Marshal Gerd Von Rundstedt, as Germany was losing its war of aggression: “Make peace, you idiots.” Hitler replaced him.
Thanks for your clarification. I wish foreign journalists (apart from Thais) would inquire into these symbolic details to help Thais fight for democracy but not sufficiency democracy as offered by the ruling elites!
I noticed the open blog on assumptions on the next in line.
I humbly suggest that you might open a new blog soliciting insights into the red strategy. What is their next tactical move to create more chaos and death in order to destabilize the government.
I suggest we are only on step 3 or 4 of a multi step plan. Anyone want to guess what is next? Not enough dead yet? Not enough international media yet? How far can it go?
*** I’ll be in bush for a month, Wildlife is so beautiful. ***
A good news In Thailand we can give birth of many “Sarus Crane” birds successfully. Also we can find place that have rich of foods and safety place for them in wildlife. No more cages anymore.
wow what planet am on on here? Nothing but personal attacks and abusive comments with no intelligent factual based discourse. I guess the required reading of NM for any serious academic (Walker bio) must be refering to the university of innuendo, but then dies not farelly state that innuendo and gossip are healthy and worthy of academic blogs somewhere?
lies! all liars! bad writers! just like apartheid! paid lackeys! There is my summary of you arguments against the ambassador, and also let it serve as rebuttal. Your turn to rant. This is fun.
I have a question and a suggestion. The question: Does anyone have any information or analysis – whether first-hand or from other sources – about the nature, strength, and evolution of Red Shirt organization? I’ve seen lots of references to factions, but the bases of factions – moderate vs. radical, unarmed vs. armed, Bangkok vs. provincial, central vs. north / northeast – is clear. I think the degree of fragmentation (on both sides, actually) will be an important influence on whether this thing continues to spiral out of control.
My suggestion has to do with the nature of comments on these strings: It would be helpful, at least to me, if contributors would try to specify whether they are offering analyses and explanations on the one hand, vs. opinions as to the virtue, righteousness, legitimacy, etc. of either side. I recognize that there’s often overlap, but some effort to distinguish normative judgment vs. empirically based description and explanation would be helpful.
A stunning though not unexpected turn of events in Bangkok. Who would have thought that protesters under attack would set the mall on fire? Or that, with the water supply turned off, it would be impossible to extinguish the blaze?
When they ordered the water mains cut, the current leaders made a conscious decision that the lives and property of Bangkok citizens were less important than the war against the protesters.
In any scenario the risk of fire must have been obvious. Perhaps in a high level strategy planning meeting it played out something like this:
Abhisit: ” Cut off the water! See how long they will last then!”
Bangkok Fire Marshall: “That will mean no water for fighting fires… I cannot agree to this!”
Abasit: “Hmmmm… the fires would destroy the mall right? That would mean heavy losses to the elite of Bangkok… and ensure their support in this war…”
Am I really fighting straw men? I think you are over-optimistic in suggesting that “no one” sees the current situation as being simply a class struggle. Plenty of people feel comfortable with this easy interpretation as it enables them to to take sides in the conflict. The fact is, however, that this is not the case. (The quote from McCargo posted by StanG above is apposite here).
I would like to see a fully functioning liberal democracy in Thailand. I assume that is what you also want to see too. However, I just don’t see the point in constructing a romanticised vision around the Red Shirts. There are elements within the movement, certainly, who have a great deal to contribute. But there are also many examples of why Thai politics in in the mess that it’s in: Chalerm, Chavalit and Thaksin, to name but three. I am not suggesting the Democrats are necessarily any better. I do, however, feel that some of the farangs posting here are allowing their hearts to rule their heads and failing to aknowledge the flaws in the Red Shirts.
Leeyiankun: “Nigel, you did read up on Prem’s reign, didn’t you? You’d think the man CARE about democracy?”
There have been a lot of conspiracy theories about who actually runs Thailand. I have no doubt that thee is more than a grain of truth in some of them. However, I think it is likely that Prem’s power to influence events is waining. He is, after all, over 90 years old, I believe. There also seems to be an assumption here that Abhisit is either a helpless puppet or else a criminal mastermind along the lines of Blofeld, the evil leader of Spectre and James Bond’s chief adversary. I suspect that both these interpretations are wrong, and that there will be elections. It is also worth pointing out that the kind of electoral fixing by encumbants seen in Sudan recently hasn’t generally been the problem in Thailand. I therefore feel that “Pa” cannot be accused of this.
After 27 fire settings, many well distanced from the red zone and strategic only to attract international media, i.e. the stock exchange, one has to question any spontaneity or random rage here. Seems well plotted with hi profile targets and well coordinated sequential timing and seeking maximum casualities. Trying to spark even more chaos and bloodshed.
People reportedly remain stranded in the channel 3 building as only helicopter rescue has been possible for many. At what point is it ok with the NM bloggers to call this premeditated terrorism?
This kind of coordination and planning can come only from strong money support and centralized planning. Nothing grassroots or spontaneous here and I suspect we will see this come to light as the facts reveal themselves. Can anyone possibly assert that these well planned and executed plans can be called part of an overall peaceful and nonviolent movement based on democracy and human rights?
Disgraceful, barbaric, and indefensible disdain for human life.
Its a very sad day in thailand when we see that all of the the red leaders who the Thai electorate chose to lead the nation in the last 3 consecutive elections are either on the run, in exile, dodging sniper bullets, locked up, banned from politics, too scared to participate in politics or dead.
Elitists will claim that thaksin bought the last 3 elections from the brain dead rural folk, yet anyone who really knows the north and north east also knows its a level playing field as far as vote buying goes. The democrats buy their votes too!
Fortunately there is a simple 3 step solution that might just work.
Step 1) Stop state control of the media in thailand so that Thais can recieve both sides of the story.
Step 2) Hold democratic elections monitored by the UN.
Step 3) When the reds win for the fourth time in a row we all get on our knees and beg the yellows to just deal with it and accept democracy.
Here in NM, many commentators are accused of harboring a Red Shirt bias. For some that may be so, but for me, it is different.
Many years ago, Clifford Geertz gave a lecture that was reprinted called “Anti Anti Relativism.” He drew an analogy to abortion; nobody is really PRO abortion, he said, they are better described as being anti anti abortion. Likewise, anthropologists who promote cultural relativism should be described as being opposed to the opposition to relativism. He isn’t PRO relativism, but against the efforts to reject it.
So it is with many of the writers on NM about the current insurrection, myself included. It isn’t that we endorse the UDD program so much as their opposition (PAD and fellow travellers) is so blatantly dishonest and oppressive. It isn’t that we are blind to Thaksin’s corruption and megalomania, but nor are we ready to dismiss his accomplishments, as are the PAD zealots. I get pulled strongly toward sympathy with the Red Shirts when their opponents are always ready to say it all comes from Thaksin’s money. That is just intellectually dishonest.
Charles F:
What do you expect? These unheard people with no power hurt, injured, and angry.
Let me put this in simple English and simple thinking.
I am a university graduate and could have done a PhD on a scholarship if I want. A year ago, there was this neighbor doing endless extremely noisy renovations above me for 5 months non-stop beyond midnight and I have a newborn. I tried every civil means with a smile, then called police to help mediate to no avail. One night I lost it – dump a load of garbage in front of their house after kicking the door twice screaming. I was wrong of course. They called the police and I got the reprimand and the find. Lucky me, no jail.
The poor Issaans – Bangkok used that word like ‘nigger’. Issaans were the laziest, stupidest people (and do add the ‘ee’- lao and khmer) according to Bangkokians. As if it was a crime to be born in Northeast Thailand. They work shitty jobs for shitty pay while their Bangkok masters ate imported food and drink imported wine. Once in a while these rich folks would head out for charity fundraising rising millions of Baht dressed in expensive Thai Silk dresses and pose for photographs. The poor villagers finally gets a bag of second hand clothes, and some bags of rice. (And before TRT tried to break the rice merchant cartel, farmers get less than B6000 for a tonne of rice so a 10kg rice sack is very very cheap) You wonder where those millions went to.
These people from the north had asked many times for free elections and were ignored. They watched what the higher class educated yellow shirts did, how many months they held the PPP government hostage, and how those yellow shirts went unpunished.They spent months, up to a year, hosting fairs selling sweets and crafts raising funds and organizing. They finally made their way to Bangkok prepared to do the same thing. They set up camp, it was a very well planned and well-set up camp. It was a camp one can live peacefully in it easily for years. They were prepared to wait it out. They wanted new elections to select the PM of their choice. They wanted the constitution changed back to the one before the military changed it. They wanted those responsible for destroying democracy held accountable.
Newcastle born, Eton bred, Oxford graduated Ahbisit did not even give them a month (April 10). Then he sent in snipers, killing a protester leader (Seah Daeng) right in front of a foreign journalist during an interview and there was not even an international outcry against that blatant act of state sanctioned murder before an international reporter. Most local Thai media reviled them. Nation and BKK post are busy calling them thugs and linking them to Taksin. Government called them terrorists when a few bad eggs cause some trouble (such massive gatherings are bound to attract trouble-makers) Hardcore elements slowly gained ground in the midst of brutality inflicted atop years of scorn and degradation and inevitable sense of betrayal.
This is the deep-seated anger you are seeing now running amok. That sense of betrayal, that no one cares. That sense of helplessness that there is nothing they can do anyway.
The running amok is not right, it is not legal. But it is not hard to see this coming.
Hi I only recently found this graph while searching out the price of Thai garlic for export in bulk. Were exports included in your calculations?
Last week in Chiang Mai at the market small Thai garlic gloves were selling for 80Bt a kilo only a couple of months after harvest when I would have thought they would be relatively cheaper.
Has the market price risen that much or are the prices you quote “at the farm gate” corm prices.
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Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
There are thousands of wounded people. Many of them are innocents, including medics and journalists. Are you sure that it is a reasonable result from selective firing?
Besides, you have already read this article, haven’t you? Is that what you actually call a case-by-case action?
Anyway, the point is that your government USED TO have a better way to deal with this, as I said in my previous posts. It’s the SINCERE promise for parliament dissolution. It is just unbelievable that your leader has decided to sacrifice so many lives for political stability, aka his own power.
It seems to me that all you are trying to say is “It’s not that bad,” but, as a matter of fact, this is bad enough by Western standard.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
To Editor
We are thai people that interesting in Politic for more than 5 years and watch the bad guy Thaksin that urge the red shirt group to render the government Abhisit. With its own personal reason to come back again in Thailand and earn much money and power and last of all ,he expect to be a president of Thailand and make our king be as symbol . You can see today news about Bangkok as The Center World plaza and also The Siam square and many Banks in Bangkok be burnt simultaneously. Pl. be honestly report your news not just do it as funny things.
Burning, curfew
So sad. The folly of governments know no limits.
In Thailand, they disenfranchised 60% of the voters and removed their elected government by military coup. They then proceeded to remove two more elected governments – one, a very popular former Bangkok governor for cooking on television. Unbelievable.
After this insult, they refer to the majority as “uneducated, stupid buffaloes. Being called a buffalo in Thai is a grave insult.
Many ask, if this is all they want, why the resistance, why the fear of a popular vote, why the willingness to sacrifice innocent lives and seriously damage the nation?
So, as the casualties mount, the question begs an answer; Why not allow the people the right to vote?
It’s worth a quote from German Field Marshal Gerd Von Rundstedt, as Germany was losing its war of aggression: “Make peace, you idiots.” Hitler replaced him.
Long Live The King!
Interview with Nick Nostitz
Mick#10,
Thanks for your clarification. I wish foreign journalists (apart from Thais) would inquire into these symbolic details to help Thais fight for democracy but not sufficiency democracy as offered by the ruling elites!
Burning, curfew
Seem like anything against red shirt are not very popular here.
Even personal first hand experience is considered to be of a poor quality comment.
So much for freedom of speech, liberty and equal rights.
Well, I suppose that we are just human. Only would like to hear what we like, unfortunately this will lead to self-indulgence.
Sometimes majority can be wrong.
Burning, curfew
I noticed the open blog on assumptions on the next in line.
I humbly suggest that you might open a new blog soliciting insights into the red strategy. What is their next tactical move to create more chaos and death in order to destabilize the government.
I suggest we are only on step 3 or 4 of a multi step plan. Anyone want to guess what is next? Not enough dead yet? Not enough international media yet? How far can it go?
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Ok..I’ll suicide with my post…
Sorry to everyone.. Just images
Might be I looked bias. It’s clear with these pictures.
http://www.saedang.freeforums.org/topic-t2186.html
*** I’ll be in bush for a month, Wildlife is so beautiful. ***
A good news In Thailand we can give birth of many “Sarus Crane” birds successfully. Also we can find place that have rich of foods and safety place for them in wildlife. No more cages anymore.
Royal sponsorship for “terrorist” funeral
@ lee #27
It was Thaksin’s curse of UN’s interference during his time by referring to it as “none of your business (=not one’s father)”.
If he didn’t want the UN to interfere with the mass killing during his time then why would any red shirt cry for UN’s help now.
Thai Embassy response to Hartcher
wow what planet am on on here? Nothing but personal attacks and abusive comments with no intelligent factual based discourse. I guess the required reading of NM for any serious academic (Walker bio) must be refering to the university of innuendo, but then dies not farelly state that innuendo and gossip are healthy and worthy of academic blogs somewhere?
lies! all liars! bad writers! just like apartheid! paid lackeys! There is my summary of you arguments against the ambassador, and also let it serve as rebuttal. Your turn to rant. This is fun.
Burning, curfew
I have a question and a suggestion. The question: Does anyone have any information or analysis – whether first-hand or from other sources – about the nature, strength, and evolution of Red Shirt organization? I’ve seen lots of references to factions, but the bases of factions – moderate vs. radical, unarmed vs. armed, Bangkok vs. provincial, central vs. north / northeast – is clear. I think the degree of fragmentation (on both sides, actually) will be an important influence on whether this thing continues to spiral out of control.
My suggestion has to do with the nature of comments on these strings: It would be helpful, at least to me, if contributors would try to specify whether they are offering analyses and explanations on the one hand, vs. opinions as to the virtue, righteousness, legitimacy, etc. of either side. I recognize that there’s often overlap, but some effort to distinguish normative judgment vs. empirically based description and explanation would be helpful.
Burning, curfew
A stunning though not unexpected turn of events in Bangkok. Who would have thought that protesters under attack would set the mall on fire? Or that, with the water supply turned off, it would be impossible to extinguish the blaze?
When they ordered the water mains cut, the current leaders made a conscious decision that the lives and property of Bangkok citizens were less important than the war against the protesters.
In any scenario the risk of fire must have been obvious. Perhaps in a high level strategy planning meeting it played out something like this:
Abhisit: ” Cut off the water! See how long they will last then!”
Bangkok Fire Marshall: “That will mean no water for fighting fires… I cannot agree to this!”
Abasit: “Hmmmm… the fires would destroy the mall right? That would mean heavy losses to the elite of Bangkok… and ensure their support in this war…”
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
Leah,
Am I really fighting straw men? I think you are over-optimistic in suggesting that “no one” sees the current situation as being simply a class struggle. Plenty of people feel comfortable with this easy interpretation as it enables them to to take sides in the conflict. The fact is, however, that this is not the case. (The quote from McCargo posted by StanG above is apposite here).
I would like to see a fully functioning liberal democracy in Thailand. I assume that is what you also want to see too. However, I just don’t see the point in constructing a romanticised vision around the Red Shirts. There are elements within the movement, certainly, who have a great deal to contribute. But there are also many examples of why Thai politics in in the mess that it’s in: Chalerm, Chavalit and Thaksin, to name but three. I am not suggesting the Democrats are necessarily any better. I do, however, feel that some of the farangs posting here are allowing their hearts to rule their heads and failing to aknowledge the flaws in the Red Shirts.
Leeyiankun: “Nigel, you did read up on Prem’s reign, didn’t you? You’d think the man CARE about democracy?”
There have been a lot of conspiracy theories about who actually runs Thailand. I have no doubt that thee is more than a grain of truth in some of them. However, I think it is likely that Prem’s power to influence events is waining. He is, after all, over 90 years old, I believe. There also seems to be an assumption here that Abhisit is either a helpless puppet or else a criminal mastermind along the lines of Blofeld, the evil leader of Spectre and James Bond’s chief adversary. I suspect that both these interpretations are wrong, and that there will be elections. It is also worth pointing out that the kind of electoral fixing by encumbants seen in Sudan recently hasn’t generally been the problem in Thailand. I therefore feel that “Pa” cannot be accused of this.
Burning, curfew
The true face of the Red Shirts is coming out.
In the meantime, Thaksin told CNN he wasn’t their leader. Anyone with half a brain would know what kind of a liar he is.
Burning, curfew
After 27 fire settings, many well distanced from the red zone and strategic only to attract international media, i.e. the stock exchange, one has to question any spontaneity or random rage here. Seems well plotted with hi profile targets and well coordinated sequential timing and seeking maximum casualities. Trying to spark even more chaos and bloodshed.
People reportedly remain stranded in the channel 3 building as only helicopter rescue has been possible for many. At what point is it ok with the NM bloggers to call this premeditated terrorism?
This kind of coordination and planning can come only from strong money support and centralized planning. Nothing grassroots or spontaneous here and I suspect we will see this come to light as the facts reveal themselves. Can anyone possibly assert that these well planned and executed plans can be called part of an overall peaceful and nonviolent movement based on democracy and human rights?
Disgraceful, barbaric, and indefensible disdain for human life.
A Sunday morning look at Bangkok
@ Timothy
“There is only one, “one man cult worship mass hysteria’”, in Thailand,…….and it is not organized around a man named Thaksin”
Really:
Try browsing here:
http://2bangkok.com/09/RedPublications.shtml
Here:
http://2bangkok.com/10/RedPublications1003b.shtml
And especially here:
http://2bangkok.com/10/RedPublications1001.shtml
Thai Embassy response to Hartcher
Its a very sad day in thailand when we see that all of the the red leaders who the Thai electorate chose to lead the nation in the last 3 consecutive elections are either on the run, in exile, dodging sniper bullets, locked up, banned from politics, too scared to participate in politics or dead.
Elitists will claim that thaksin bought the last 3 elections from the brain dead rural folk, yet anyone who really knows the north and north east also knows its a level playing field as far as vote buying goes. The democrats buy their votes too!
Fortunately there is a simple 3 step solution that might just work.
Step 1) Stop state control of the media in thailand so that Thais can recieve both sides of the story.
Step 2) Hold democratic elections monitored by the UN.
Step 3) When the reds win for the fourth time in a row we all get on our knees and beg the yellows to just deal with it and accept democracy.
Burning, curfew
See pictures of soldiers raided the sanctuary temple where the women, elders, kids, refuge earlier. Even the monks have been tied, and all eye-folded.
http://rajdumnern.ownforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=836
Burning, curfew
Here in NM, many commentators are accused of harboring a Red Shirt bias. For some that may be so, but for me, it is different.
Many years ago, Clifford Geertz gave a lecture that was reprinted called “Anti Anti Relativism.” He drew an analogy to abortion; nobody is really PRO abortion, he said, they are better described as being anti anti abortion. Likewise, anthropologists who promote cultural relativism should be described as being opposed to the opposition to relativism. He isn’t PRO relativism, but against the efforts to reject it.
So it is with many of the writers on NM about the current insurrection, myself included. It isn’t that we endorse the UDD program so much as their opposition (PAD and fellow travellers) is so blatantly dishonest and oppressive. It isn’t that we are blind to Thaksin’s corruption and megalomania, but nor are we ready to dismiss his accomplishments, as are the PAD zealots. I get pulled strongly toward sympathy with the Red Shirts when their opponents are always ready to say it all comes from Thaksin’s money. That is just intellectually dishonest.
Burning, curfew
Charles F:
What do you expect? These unheard people with no power hurt, injured, and angry.
Let me put this in simple English and simple thinking.
I am a university graduate and could have done a PhD on a scholarship if I want. A year ago, there was this neighbor doing endless extremely noisy renovations above me for 5 months non-stop beyond midnight and I have a newborn. I tried every civil means with a smile, then called police to help mediate to no avail. One night I lost it – dump a load of garbage in front of their house after kicking the door twice screaming. I was wrong of course. They called the police and I got the reprimand and the find. Lucky me, no jail.
The poor Issaans – Bangkok used that word like ‘nigger’. Issaans were the laziest, stupidest people (and do add the ‘ee’- lao and khmer) according to Bangkokians. As if it was a crime to be born in Northeast Thailand. They work shitty jobs for shitty pay while their Bangkok masters ate imported food and drink imported wine. Once in a while these rich folks would head out for charity fundraising rising millions of Baht dressed in expensive Thai Silk dresses and pose for photographs. The poor villagers finally gets a bag of second hand clothes, and some bags of rice. (And before TRT tried to break the rice merchant cartel, farmers get less than B6000 for a tonne of rice so a 10kg rice sack is very very cheap) You wonder where those millions went to.
These people from the north had asked many times for free elections and were ignored. They watched what the higher class educated yellow shirts did, how many months they held the PPP government hostage, and how those yellow shirts went unpunished.They spent months, up to a year, hosting fairs selling sweets and crafts raising funds and organizing. They finally made their way to Bangkok prepared to do the same thing. They set up camp, it was a very well planned and well-set up camp. It was a camp one can live peacefully in it easily for years. They were prepared to wait it out. They wanted new elections to select the PM of their choice. They wanted the constitution changed back to the one before the military changed it. They wanted those responsible for destroying democracy held accountable.
Newcastle born, Eton bred, Oxford graduated Ahbisit did not even give them a month (April 10). Then he sent in snipers, killing a protester leader (Seah Daeng) right in front of a foreign journalist during an interview and there was not even an international outcry against that blatant act of state sanctioned murder before an international reporter. Most local Thai media reviled them. Nation and BKK post are busy calling them thugs and linking them to Taksin. Government called them terrorists when a few bad eggs cause some trouble (such massive gatherings are bound to attract trouble-makers) Hardcore elements slowly gained ground in the midst of brutality inflicted atop years of scorn and degradation and inevitable sense of betrayal.
This is the deep-seated anger you are seeing now running amok. That sense of betrayal, that no one cares. That sense of helplessness that there is nothing they can do anyway.
The running amok is not right, it is not legal. But it is not hard to see this coming.
More on the garlic roller coaster
Hi I only recently found this graph while searching out the price of Thai garlic for export in bulk. Were exports included in your calculations?
Last week in Chiang Mai at the market small Thai garlic gloves were selling for 80Bt a kilo only a couple of months after harvest when I would have thought they would be relatively cheaper.
Has the market price risen that much or are the prices you quote “at the farm gate” corm prices.
Thanks
Geoff