The world also see the true face of the Thai government: tyrant, liar, killer, selfterror and the hidden power hunger agenda against its own people. Controlling the country by creating fear.
# 14 : Erewhon
Could you please stop refering your openion as “WE”? I don’t like the propaganda on MY TV screen and I do not prefer it because I felt like a 10 years old child starting to learn English in Thailand by repeating a teacher saying:
“Goodmoring. How are you doing?”
“I’m fine. Thank you and you?”
“I am fine. Thank you. Please sit down”
so all of you red shirt sympahtizers are cheering the burning and destruction of private property!?!? What a joke. Any comment decrying the destruction or factual account of what is going on gets “thumbs down”. Maybe adding this “good comment/bad comment” thing wasn’t such a good idea.
Why are these morons burning down their own town halls? You want these Einsteins in charge of the whole country?
We must be in the scorched earth phase that was planned in the event the protest was broken up by the government. If Jim Taylor is correct and the next phase is full blown revolution, I wonder what kind of political system the reds have in mind for Thailand, if they win.
country under military rule, soldiers allowed to shoot whoever they want, journalists threatened and killed, red shirt movement exploded into widespread chaos.
thailand’s just ready for its big smooth succession.
Erewhon – not really the time for a discussion on the Thai media and government controlled propaganda, but the current TV programme with its perfectly ironic theme of ‘Thai love Thai,’ is reprehensible and pathetic.
If the free people of the of the land of the free are so full of mutual love and respect for each other, how come they need this rot shoved down their throats pretty much 24/7, especially during times of national crisis? Surely, it’s an theoretical oxymoron, , isn’t it ?
And it also doesn’t say a lot about the royal’s confidence in their own people to mindlesslessly and unthinkingly revere them as, I imagine, they would like.
Erewhon, I accept your point, but what they were broadcasting was beyond the pale, and it does not have to be either of these things. Such propaganda is just ridiculous under the circumstances
well, Charles F. deserves a rebuke: people are angry, hurt and bitterly disappointed. No one should endorse public displays of anger but under the circumstances there are lots of reasons why this is happening as it is: the fascist illegimate emplaced govt bought it on themselves by refusing to engage in constructive negotiations (based on the right of both parties equally to present counter positions for considerations). They killed not only people’s aspirations but any sense of reasoned electoral democracy in the forseeable future. Killing my own unarmed brothers and sisters I would also be furious when the outside sits and does nothing or dangles a few ineffective conciliatory and weak placatory remarks…As the Reds represent the majority people and have suffered under the regime past four years, I’d say they hav good reason to be pissed off…
The dam has burst. The rural poor have descended upon the untouchable capital city that shunned them as “buffalos” for their coarse farm hands and sun scorched darker skins. They are not “stupid” as the Bangkok elites describe them. I have heard all the epithets personally. The city elites live in a fools paradise, believing they can prosper as an enclave. They reckon the rural poor were “duped” by Thaksin who “bought their votes” by spending money in the rural areas. It’s called poverty alleviation,”stupid”. It’s called income redistribution. It’s called a just society. They didn’t get it. So now the dispossesed are running amuck even as their leaders surrender. Indeed, it has become worse. Without leadership, they have become an angry, rampaing mob, torching all the symbols of affluence they will never have any hope of sharing. Unfortunately, the elites still won’t get it — until there is even more violence down the line.
Charles: moral high ground didn’t prevent the government to kill them since the 10 of april. Didn’t seem very useful.
Do you know how you would react in front of an army killing your friends ?
They do not have tanks and an army, so they cannot hold a coup.
They do not have the power to influence the judicial system to get verdicts their way.
The only power the Reds have against the corruption of the Yellow Elite is the power of demonstration, and if they Yellow Elite crack down on that, the the power of targeted violence against the symbols of the Elite (being Banks, Malls and Government Offices).
You see, if the Reds had the tanks they could have held a “bloodless” coup just like the Yellows did in 2006.
If the Reds had the power to corrupt the judiciary they could have avoided having their political party disbanded.
So here they are now, when the demonstration is cracked down on, resorting to the only thing they have.
For months the reds were non-violent, they only started when they were provoked after the government cut off their PTV channel (whilst allowing the pro-Yellow ASTC to keep spouting its lies).
The world can see whats going on, even more clearly now.
The red struggle is not over, it appears to be just starting.
If anyone has video’s or photo’s of the other cities where the unrest is ongoing and government buildings, banks and malls are getting burnt down please post the links.
Chiang Mai, Kalasin, Mukdahan, Korat, Khon Kaen and the other cities where its all happening.
This seems to be the people of Thailand returning fire. The “sniper head shots” delivered from the Elite are being repaid with burning down your symbols it seems. Real “eye for an eye” stuff.
The government is hated, they could have avoided everything by calling elections months ago and yet the cling on to power regardless of the cost.
I am assuming that all contributors to this forum have a more or less shared commitment to a democratic process that ensures justice and strives for equity.
My concern is that the Red movement had a fantastic opportunity. Last Songkhran was a disaster. This year they appeared to have learned with a commitment to non-violence. A huge gathering spreading goodwill among Bangkokians.
But where was the political debate? It was just slogans from the stage – and a lot of violent rhetoric. This stage could have been used for a real critical debate about how to move democracy forward – beyond the ‘class war’. This could have raised the political consciousness.
They went into negotiations – but were not prepared to offer any compromise. They forced the government into a corner – and allowed them to justify their tough stance.
And what have they got? I feel they could have achieved more by keeping the popular support of Bangkok and others who had initially been impressed by their demonstration – and by opening up a political process of negotiation.
I do not feel that the strategy of bloodshed and chaos will further the cause of democracy. I am not confident that targeting the media will help. And it just confirms the worst excesses of the Thaksin era.
I have to say that I feel betrayed by Thaksin. He came in on the back of the 97 constitution – and could have delivered so much. He courted activists and adopted some important policy changes. But ultimately he failed to deliver – 30 baht health care but inadequate investment in the whole health care system so that the proportion of medical staff to population is still poor in many places. He was more interested in form over substance.
But more than anything Thaksin’s assault on the independent institutions of the constitution, and the extreme human rights abuses around the drugs war, the south, targeting NGOs and academics dared to criticise him – discredit any claim he may have to representing democracy, or to any movement that is formed in his image.
All of this has been said by others on this forum.
There are other ways of promoting democracy and of struggling against oppressive governments.
My feeling is that the Reds have blown it. My gloomy prediction is that we will face a level of political violence that will play into the hands of extremists. I do not believe that most Thais have the stomach for a protracted political struggle that involves a high level of violence – and during which economic conditions for many will deteriorate.
My fear is that out of this chaos we will face an even worse government – and even less political space to present an alternative.
I would hope that a forum like this can at least contribute to thinking through an alternative agenda beyond the calls for ‘class war’ and ‘civil war’.
Come to think about it and there is likely to be a coup soon.
The easiest way to defuse the situation is for someone who does not get his hands ‘bloody’ yet to stage a coup and put Abisith and a few others into custody.
The Red Shirt leaders are already in custody. It’s about time to sacrifice the puppet so the puppeteer can live happily ever after.
I don’t think it’s appropriate to compare LA riots to the current situation. Last year Thai army dispersed the mob without killing anyone and reds didn’t fight back.
This year red response was clearly different, from April 10 attack on army building that started the day to night time grenade attacks that sparked the shootings to last Friday.
Did the rioters in LA openly fought with the National Guard, not giving up an inch of the territory?
Did Americans have to deal with hidden armed men, snipers, M79s etc?
Why not compare it to Fallujah instead? Why not compare it American rules of engagement when they come under fire?
Now that the Thai army is moving decisively against the rioters the world gets to see the true face of the Red Shirts: arson, looting, attacking journalists, calls for terrorism and guerrilla warfare against the government.
The Red Shirts have forfeited any moral high ground they once had, if they had any to begin with.
They’re no better than the rioters in East Los Angeles or Detroit.
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Burning, curfew
@ Charles F #17
The world also see the true face of the Thai government: tyrant, liar, killer, selfterror and the hidden power hunger agenda against its own people. Controlling the country by creating fear.
They are not better than a criminal.
Burning, curfew
# 14 : Erewhon
Could you please stop refering your openion as “WE”? I don’t like the propaganda on MY TV screen and I do not prefer it because I felt like a 10 years old child starting to learn English in Thailand by repeating a teacher saying:
“Goodmoring. How are you doing?”
“I’m fine. Thank you and you?”
“I am fine. Thank you. Please sit down”
It’s all been programmed…
Burning, curfew
so all of you red shirt sympahtizers are cheering the burning and destruction of private property!?!? What a joke. Any comment decrying the destruction or factual account of what is going on gets “thumbs down”. Maybe adding this “good comment/bad comment” thing wasn’t such a good idea.
Why are these morons burning down their own town halls? You want these Einsteins in charge of the whole country?
Burning, curfew
We must be in the scorched earth phase that was planned in the event the protest was broken up by the government. If Jim Taylor is correct and the next phase is full blown revolution, I wonder what kind of political system the reds have in mind for Thailand, if they win.
Burning, curfew
country under military rule, soldiers allowed to shoot whoever they want, journalists threatened and killed, red shirt movement exploded into widespread chaos.
thailand’s just ready for its big smooth succession.
Burning, curfew
Erewhon – not really the time for a discussion on the Thai media and government controlled propaganda, but the current TV programme with its perfectly ironic theme of ‘Thai love Thai,’ is reprehensible and pathetic.
If the free people of the of the land of the free are so full of mutual love and respect for each other, how come they need this rot shoved down their throats pretty much 24/7, especially during times of national crisis? Surely, it’s an theoretical oxymoron, , isn’t it ?
And it also doesn’t say a lot about the royal’s confidence in their own people to mindlesslessly and unthinkingly revere them as, I imagine, they would like.
Back to this one another day, I hope.
Burning, curfew
Erewhon, I accept your point, but what they were broadcasting was beyond the pale, and it does not have to be either of these things. Such propaganda is just ridiculous under the circumstances
Burning, curfew
Giles comment –
http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2010/05/19/ji-ungpakorn-on-anger/
=
Video of todays crackdown –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4sdHXgcN0M
=
Burning, curfew
well, Charles F. deserves a rebuke: people are angry, hurt and bitterly disappointed. No one should endorse public displays of anger but under the circumstances there are lots of reasons why this is happening as it is: the fascist illegimate emplaced govt bought it on themselves by refusing to engage in constructive negotiations (based on the right of both parties equally to present counter positions for considerations). They killed not only people’s aspirations but any sense of reasoned electoral democracy in the forseeable future. Killing my own unarmed brothers and sisters I would also be furious when the outside sits and does nothing or dangles a few ineffective conciliatory and weak placatory remarks…As the Reds represent the majority people and have suffered under the regime past four years, I’d say they hav good reason to be pissed off…
Crackdown? Abhisit’s last stand?
The dam has burst. The rural poor have descended upon the untouchable capital city that shunned them as “buffalos” for their coarse farm hands and sun scorched darker skins. They are not “stupid” as the Bangkok elites describe them. I have heard all the epithets personally. The city elites live in a fools paradise, believing they can prosper as an enclave. They reckon the rural poor were “duped” by Thaksin who “bought their votes” by spending money in the rural areas. It’s called poverty alleviation,”stupid”. It’s called income redistribution. It’s called a just society. They didn’t get it. So now the dispossesed are running amuck even as their leaders surrender. Indeed, it has become worse. Without leadership, they have become an angry, rampaing mob, torching all the symbols of affluence they will never have any hope of sharing. Unfortunately, the elites still won’t get it — until there is even more violence down the line.
Burning, curfew
Charles: moral high ground didn’t prevent the government to kill them since the 10 of april. Didn’t seem very useful.
Do you know how you would react in front of an army killing your friends ?
Burning, curfew
Wonder why they attacked the Malenond Building and Channel 3’s office. Pracha Malenond was a Thaksin crony.
Burning, curfew
Jim Taylor: what’s your source for this: “20 Nor Por Chor women and men killed near Henri Dunant Road”? When did this occur?
Burning, curfew
@CharlesF.
They do not have tanks and an army, so they cannot hold a coup.
They do not have the power to influence the judicial system to get verdicts their way.
The only power the Reds have against the corruption of the Yellow Elite is the power of demonstration, and if they Yellow Elite crack down on that, the the power of targeted violence against the symbols of the Elite (being Banks, Malls and Government Offices).
You see, if the Reds had the tanks they could have held a “bloodless” coup just like the Yellows did in 2006.
If the Reds had the power to corrupt the judiciary they could have avoided having their political party disbanded.
So here they are now, when the demonstration is cracked down on, resorting to the only thing they have.
For months the reds were non-violent, they only started when they were provoked after the government cut off their PTV channel (whilst allowing the pro-Yellow ASTC to keep spouting its lies).
The world can see whats going on, even more clearly now.
The red struggle is not over, it appears to be just starting.
Burning, curfew
Video of the Provincial Hall getting burnt down in Udon Thani
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMp5UwTYy-Y
=
Photos of the burning of the Provincial Hall in Ubon
http://memock.wordpress.com/
=
If anyone has video’s or photo’s of the other cities where the unrest is ongoing and government buildings, banks and malls are getting burnt down please post the links.
Chiang Mai, Kalasin, Mukdahan, Korat, Khon Kaen and the other cities where its all happening.
This seems to be the people of Thailand returning fire. The “sniper head shots” delivered from the Elite are being repaid with burning down your symbols it seems. Real “eye for an eye” stuff.
The government is hated, they could have avoided everything by calling elections months ago and yet the cling on to power regardless of the cost.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
Leeyiankun 83
A shame that my comments were taken in this way.
I am assuming that all contributors to this forum have a more or less shared commitment to a democratic process that ensures justice and strives for equity.
My concern is that the Red movement had a fantastic opportunity. Last Songkhran was a disaster. This year they appeared to have learned with a commitment to non-violence. A huge gathering spreading goodwill among Bangkokians.
But where was the political debate? It was just slogans from the stage – and a lot of violent rhetoric. This stage could have been used for a real critical debate about how to move democracy forward – beyond the ‘class war’. This could have raised the political consciousness.
They went into negotiations – but were not prepared to offer any compromise. They forced the government into a corner – and allowed them to justify their tough stance.
And what have they got? I feel they could have achieved more by keeping the popular support of Bangkok and others who had initially been impressed by their demonstration – and by opening up a political process of negotiation.
I do not feel that the strategy of bloodshed and chaos will further the cause of democracy. I am not confident that targeting the media will help. And it just confirms the worst excesses of the Thaksin era.
I have to say that I feel betrayed by Thaksin. He came in on the back of the 97 constitution – and could have delivered so much. He courted activists and adopted some important policy changes. But ultimately he failed to deliver – 30 baht health care but inadequate investment in the whole health care system so that the proportion of medical staff to population is still poor in many places. He was more interested in form over substance.
But more than anything Thaksin’s assault on the independent institutions of the constitution, and the extreme human rights abuses around the drugs war, the south, targeting NGOs and academics dared to criticise him – discredit any claim he may have to representing democracy, or to any movement that is formed in his image.
All of this has been said by others on this forum.
There are other ways of promoting democracy and of struggling against oppressive governments.
My feeling is that the Reds have blown it. My gloomy prediction is that we will face a level of political violence that will play into the hands of extremists. I do not believe that most Thais have the stomach for a protracted political struggle that involves a high level of violence – and during which economic conditions for many will deteriorate.
My fear is that out of this chaos we will face an even worse government – and even less political space to present an alternative.
I would hope that a forum like this can at least contribute to thinking through an alternative agenda beyond the calls for ‘class war’ and ‘civil war’.
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
Jim #70
Come to think about it and there is likely to be a coup soon.
The easiest way to defuse the situation is for someone who does not get his hands ‘bloody’ yet to stage a coup and put Abisith and a few others into custody.
The Red Shirt leaders are already in custody. It’s about time to sacrifice the puppet so the puppeteer can live happily ever after.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
I don’t think it’s appropriate to compare LA riots to the current situation. Last year Thai army dispersed the mob without killing anyone and reds didn’t fight back.
This year red response was clearly different, from April 10 attack on army building that started the day to night time grenade attacks that sparked the shootings to last Friday.
Did the rioters in LA openly fought with the National Guard, not giving up an inch of the territory?
Did Americans have to deal with hidden armed men, snipers, M79s etc?
Why not compare it to Fallujah instead? Why not compare it American rules of engagement when they come under fire?
Burning, curfew
see forum http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/bangkok-gripped-looting- arson for an alternative to Jim Taylor’s views
Burning, curfew
Now that the Thai army is moving decisively against the rioters the world gets to see the true face of the Red Shirts: arson, looting, attacking journalists, calls for terrorism and guerrilla warfare against the government.
The Red Shirts have forfeited any moral high ground they once had, if they had any to begin with.
They’re no better than the rioters in East Los Angeles or Detroit.