It was mentioned only in passing in the original article, but what I have heard from many Thai people who dare discuss the subject, is that Queen Sirikit is the power in the land today with her husband’s ill health rendering unable to rule effectively.
They also fully expect the Queen to remain as the focus of power in the land after Rama IX’s death.
If this is so, we could probably expect to see a continuation of the existing situation with Rama IX attaining a mythical status in the after life. Instead of a living, demi-god, he would be elevated to be a fully-paid up god. And that image would be so easy to control and maintain. As an example, consider the status of Rama V within Thai society, and yet there is not a single living Thai who can remember him personally.
In this modern age with the power of mass media and the ability to shape and manipulate public opinion with the latest communication tools, I expect the image of Rama IX to be intensified within Thai person’s minds for many years to come.
By which time, that young lad will have grown up enough to take over the Bhumipol legacy.
Please try to refrain from ranting that all evil in Thailand revolves around Thaksin. The reds are protesting for a multitude of reasons just as frustrated Bangkok expats like you have a multitude of personal reasons for continually condeming their actions on blogs.
Claiming that all red shirts are brainless zombies on thaksins leash is akin to claiming all Bangkok expats are brainless zombies who are happy to see civilians shot if those civilians happen to interupt their shopping. Both statements are accurate for a certain number of individuals but most people develop their political outlook in far more intelligent ways.
Personally I think that Thaksin and Abhissit have proved themselves to be equally unfit as prime ministers. Yet my opinion is only an opinion. What really counts in this matter is the opinion of the Thai electorate and they have stated their case with extreme clarity in recent years. Yet, and herein lies the real problem within thailand, their choices have been repeatedly stomped into the ground by a power hungry yellow clique.
The reds elected Thaksin twice in a row, only to see him illegally removed by a yellow led military coup. The electorates response to this injustice was to vote in yet another red government. Through a series of highly creative tactical moves including coup controlled constitutional change to suit the yellows, banning all opposition media, using the judiciary as a political tool to ban all key red leaders from politics, house disolution, sacking a PM over a cooking show, branding protesters as terrorists then killing them and assasination of a red leader to drive home the point.
The result is that we now have a situation where the group who the Thai electorate chose to lead the nation in the last 3 consecutive elections are either on the run, in exile, dodging sniper bullets, locked up, banned from politics or dead.
So I say to you mister Erewhon. Its not only Thaksin who is trying to compete with Suharto and the likes to create a dictatorship. Im sure at this point you are itching to scream that thaksin bought the last 3 elections from the brain dead rural poor.
Well having lived in Thailand on and off for the past 16 years including the north east I can assure you that the democrat vote buyers are up there every single election buying their votes alongside the reds. It’s actually a reasonably level playing field as far as vote buying goes.
So with both sides buying votes and with both sides having corrupt and slightly evil leaderships how do we settle which side should lead????? I say we let the thai people vote on it….. And that one my friend has already been decided……….. repeatedly………..
To have so many comments from Thai people is very welcoming. To those Thais, may I ask a question?
Your sincere love for the King is unquestioned. Will you have the same love for the next King? And do you expect your views on the monarchy will remain after the succession?
from twitter
Please RT. People around me are dying because they can’t get to hospital across the road because of fighting #bangkok http://twitpic.com/1p51ix
If there is anything you can do, PLEASE HELP THEM!!!
Nigel:
Ah, let me clarify: I mean that vote-buying the old fashion way was slowly losing its influence, not lost its influence. There are more people now taking money from all sides and voting for whom they please. More, not most.
For example, the first election after the 2006 coup, the army installed government conducted a poll before allowing the election. The Dusit Thani poll showed that Democrat Party could potentially win half the seats, well maybe a little short, but Democrat Party should made it as the Majority. As it turns out, the PPP won by such a big lead, it did not even make any sense for Democrat Party to try form a coalition. After Samak was Prime Minister adn everyone thought it was ‘safe’ a number of them actually talk on TV: how they polled for Democrat Party because they were scared, but they actually voted for PPP.
There is also another aspect to vote-buying – loyalty to the patronage system. This part is much harder to change. You vote for the lord and take whatever he gives you. That is why a good number of the families are still there. Some families are genuininely ‘nice’ to their serfs, as long as those serfs do not know what their counterparts in Europe is getting for the same size of farmland.
So yes, I agree with you totally that vote-buying is still rampant. And like you, I am not hopeful for a more equal and democratic Thailand.
My point in describing the voting process it: most of these villages never truely voted until TRT came into power. As democracy goes, as each person freely exercising his choice to vote goes, in spite of the vote-buying, the 2005 election is possibly the most ‘democratic’ and free election ever held in Thailand.
I just wish and hope that the people like the Flagman Nattawut Paentong of Samut Prakarn, General Khattiya Seh-Daeng Sawasdipol, and the others didn’t die in vain!
Charles F
2 months of occupying this prestigious area none of the stores were plundered and no red shirt went around and shot anybody in the head as had happened in LA.
This people took up primitive defenses when the killing started. So the comparison is a statement that is in fact embarrassing you. It’s advised you take a closer look at what happened there but also check out Greece, none of the people that were actually really destructive and violent were shot.
Turning water supplies off to make the crowd go way shows to be another miscalculation of the tactic and strategy of this totally bizarre surrealistic happening. Now sprinklers do not work and the fire cannot be extinguished in the large department stores. A security risk the government obviously did not even think off – so I wonder what else they did not consider which will backfire in the end.
You cannot reason people by force – only convince them with well chosen words that have credibility and by showing that you respect their dignity.
Getting the army in had the opposite effect. They should have never shown their face.
Did you really assume it will be all over today – just shoot them all dead and problem is gone? So you can proceed with your life despite the ones that were killed by state force?
No government survived on a long run ignoring the needs of the majority of their population but they always fell prey to it. It’s just a matter of time.
My officemates here in Narathiwat were discussing the situation in Bangkok and the northern/northeastern provinces. The consensus was ‘LOL uneducated buffaloes getting what they deserve.’ Laughter and everything.
I called them on it, and the response from my most outspoken coworker was to the effect that at least the army is turning its guns on a more worthy target than folks here. I told her that, from my chats with redshirts during my vacation in BKK, the opinion was mutual. She sniffed, “They’re just stupid. At least we in the south are educated.”
That particular coworker is a bit of a drama queen and to be taken with a grain of salt; all the same, I don’t think I’ll be spending much time in my office tomorrow. I don’t want to take sides in all this, but the prejudice (and, sometimes, open racism) of both sides is unacceptable. May everyone come to their senses sooner rather than later.
Re :
Anyone considered the idea that Aphisit asks/orders the army to take over (for a while) and imposes marshall law to ’sort out the lawlessness’?
Or that a PAD-style 50% voting system is introduced.
Or that Bangkok and all provinces north thereof are now Pattani – and probably will be for years to come.
Sadly, this promises to be a very long civil war.
BANGKOK: — The Criminal Court Wednesday approved the request of the Department of Special Investigation to issue arrest warrant against former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and nine other people on charge of terrorism.
DSI director-general Tharit Pengdit said the nine other people wanted on the arrest warrant are Adisorn Piengket, Wiphuthalaeng Phattanaphumthai, Phayup Punket, Jeng Dokjik, Wichian Khaokham, Aree Krainara, Suksek Poltua, Surachai Thewarat and Rachata Wongyod.
Kriengsak discredits himself in his first point — he doesn’t know his history. On May 20 1992 military troops were moving in on thousands of protesting students at Ramkhamhaeng university with orders to shoot, when Bhumibol finally intervened. While at Thammasat in 1976, I think, but not sure, that the number of students there was in the hundreds.
Speaking of censorship and media manipulation, Thai PBS just aired film of two red shirt leaders, Jatuporn and the tall guy with a moustache, arriving by helicopter at an army base in, I think, Lopburi or Petchuapkirikan.
It seems the government is at pains to demonstate some degree of tranparency on their present fate, at least for the moment.
Since history is always written by the winners, I’m afraid your right.
The heroic Thai army won the historic battle against fierce red terrorists armed to the teeth with old tires, bung fai and M-150 glass-fragment grenades.
Let’s hope they restore order soon, so we can enjoy the blissful calm courtesy of the friendly military junta.
I’m glad the looming prospect of snap elections has been avoided (how awful that would have been!). Miscellaneous death and destruction of uneducated peasants (sorry, terrorists… hard to keep up) is certainly worth it.
My son in Chiang Mai reports that in the past 24 hours there were tires burning at Central Department Store, Chiang Mai and reports of an explosion.
Question is: if these reports are true, how widespread are these incidents beyond BKK? what is the purpose? Is Red Rage going to express itself like this outside of Bangkok? How will the government respond to these new threats? How will Red Shirt cell groups like in Chiang Mai and Lampang respond? Do they have the leadership to outsmart the military? Or will it be like in the 1970s when people fled to “pink” zones in Mae Hong Son/Mae Jaem, Luy Province and Nong Kai? There are no forests left there in which to really “hide” and sattellite technology can detect them in thier hideouts.
Or could they attempt urban guerrilla warfare on a low-key scale?
Or could they just give up and wait for a better day?
Hmm. I think I better have another sip of coffee and pray for peace.
I think the article is spot on and the ambassador’s response is just another embarrassment for this horrible government. What I want to ask is; “Is there anyway like minded and concerned people like myself can join together to oppose the disgusting actions of the illegitimate Thai government?”. Is there any way this website can facilitate this?
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Why King Vajiralongkorn will be good for Thai Democracy
It was mentioned only in passing in the original article, but what I have heard from many Thai people who dare discuss the subject, is that Queen Sirikit is the power in the land today with her husband’s ill health rendering unable to rule effectively.
They also fully expect the Queen to remain as the focus of power in the land after Rama IX’s death.
If this is so, we could probably expect to see a continuation of the existing situation with Rama IX attaining a mythical status in the after life. Instead of a living, demi-god, he would be elevated to be a fully-paid up god. And that image would be so easy to control and maintain. As an example, consider the status of Rama V within Thai society, and yet there is not a single living Thai who can remember him personally.
In this modern age with the power of mass media and the ability to shape and manipulate public opinion with the latest communication tools, I expect the image of Rama IX to be intensified within Thai person’s minds for many years to come.
By which time, that young lad will have grown up enough to take over the Bhumipol legacy.
Burning, curfew
Unarmed protester fairy tales:
http://tnews.teenee.com/politic/50814.html
Burning, curfew
Khun Erewhon,
Please try to refrain from ranting that all evil in Thailand revolves around Thaksin. The reds are protesting for a multitude of reasons just as frustrated Bangkok expats like you have a multitude of personal reasons for continually condeming their actions on blogs.
Claiming that all red shirts are brainless zombies on thaksins leash is akin to claiming all Bangkok expats are brainless zombies who are happy to see civilians shot if those civilians happen to interupt their shopping. Both statements are accurate for a certain number of individuals but most people develop their political outlook in far more intelligent ways.
Personally I think that Thaksin and Abhissit have proved themselves to be equally unfit as prime ministers. Yet my opinion is only an opinion. What really counts in this matter is the opinion of the Thai electorate and they have stated their case with extreme clarity in recent years. Yet, and herein lies the real problem within thailand, their choices have been repeatedly stomped into the ground by a power hungry yellow clique.
The reds elected Thaksin twice in a row, only to see him illegally removed by a yellow led military coup. The electorates response to this injustice was to vote in yet another red government. Through a series of highly creative tactical moves including coup controlled constitutional change to suit the yellows, banning all opposition media, using the judiciary as a political tool to ban all key red leaders from politics, house disolution, sacking a PM over a cooking show, branding protesters as terrorists then killing them and assasination of a red leader to drive home the point.
The result is that we now have a situation where the group who the Thai electorate chose to lead the nation in the last 3 consecutive elections are either on the run, in exile, dodging sniper bullets, locked up, banned from politics or dead.
So I say to you mister Erewhon. Its not only Thaksin who is trying to compete with Suharto and the likes to create a dictatorship. Im sure at this point you are itching to scream that thaksin bought the last 3 elections from the brain dead rural poor.
Well having lived in Thailand on and off for the past 16 years including the north east I can assure you that the democrat vote buyers are up there every single election buying their votes alongside the reds. It’s actually a reasonably level playing field as far as vote buying goes.
So with both sides buying votes and with both sides having corrupt and slightly evil leaderships how do we settle which side should lead????? I say we let the thai people vote on it….. And that one my friend has already been decided……….. repeatedly………..
Thai Embassy response to Hartcher
Leah,
Instead of getting into a war of words I’ll post up a couple of my sources and let the readers thumb it up or down:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/thai-pm-faces-opposition-over-emergency-laws/2005/08/26/1124563029538.html
http://www1.voanews.com/burmese/news/a-27-2005-07-15-voa1-93501849.html
Video of Thailand on the Verge
To have so many comments from Thai people is very welcoming. To those Thais, may I ask a question?
Your sincere love for the King is unquestioned. Will you have the same love for the next King? And do you expect your views on the monarchy will remain after the succession?
Burning, curfew
Prathumwanaram temple [Safe zone] is not safe anymore 2 peoples shot dead by Sniper in front of the temple and inside safe zone there are 7 people shot dead the bullet came from park inside the temple and 10 are injures.
Sources:
http://prachatai.com/journal/2010/05/29616
http://prachatai.com/journal/2010/05/29607
from twitter
Please RT. People around me are dying because they can’t get to hospital across the road because of fighting #bangkok
http://twitpic.com/1p51ix
If there is anything you can do, PLEASE HELP THEM!!!
Burning, curfew
Update at 9:26 p.m. 19 May
– Injured people inside Pratum temple need help but can’t get any ambulance as the gunfire still around.
http://twitpic.com/1p51ix
– Reports of gunfire at Victory Monument leaving many injured. Also a department store, Center One is on fire.
Too many eggs in the royal basket
Nigel:
Ah, let me clarify: I mean that vote-buying the old fashion way was slowly losing its influence, not lost its influence. There are more people now taking money from all sides and voting for whom they please. More, not most.
For example, the first election after the 2006 coup, the army installed government conducted a poll before allowing the election. The Dusit Thani poll showed that Democrat Party could potentially win half the seats, well maybe a little short, but Democrat Party should made it as the Majority. As it turns out, the PPP won by such a big lead, it did not even make any sense for Democrat Party to try form a coalition. After Samak was Prime Minister adn everyone thought it was ‘safe’ a number of them actually talk on TV: how they polled for Democrat Party because they were scared, but they actually voted for PPP.
There is also another aspect to vote-buying – loyalty to the patronage system. This part is much harder to change. You vote for the lord and take whatever he gives you. That is why a good number of the families are still there. Some families are genuininely ‘nice’ to their serfs, as long as those serfs do not know what their counterparts in Europe is getting for the same size of farmland.
So yes, I agree with you totally that vote-buying is still rampant. And like you, I am not hopeful for a more equal and democratic Thailand.
My point in describing the voting process it: most of these villages never truely voted until TRT came into power. As democracy goes, as each person freely exercising his choice to vote goes, in spite of the vote-buying, the 2005 election is possibly the most ‘democratic’ and free election ever held in Thailand.
Burning, curfew
I just wish and hope that the people like the Flagman Nattawut Paentong of Samut Prakarn, General Khattiya Seh-Daeng Sawasdipol, and the others didn’t die in vain!
May Their Souls Rest In Peace.
Burning, curfew
Charles F
2 months of occupying this prestigious area none of the stores were plundered and no red shirt went around and shot anybody in the head as had happened in LA.
This people took up primitive defenses when the killing started. So the comparison is a statement that is in fact embarrassing you. It’s advised you take a closer look at what happened there but also check out Greece, none of the people that were actually really destructive and violent were shot.
Turning water supplies off to make the crowd go way shows to be another miscalculation of the tactic and strategy of this totally bizarre surrealistic happening. Now sprinklers do not work and the fire cannot be extinguished in the large department stores. A security risk the government obviously did not even think off – so I wonder what else they did not consider which will backfire in the end.
You cannot reason people by force – only convince them with well chosen words that have credibility and by showing that you respect their dignity.
Getting the army in had the opposite effect. They should have never shown their face.
Did you really assume it will be all over today – just shoot them all dead and problem is gone? So you can proceed with your life despite the ones that were killed by state force?
No government survived on a long run ignoring the needs of the majority of their population but they always fell prey to it. It’s just a matter of time.
Burning, curfew
My officemates here in Narathiwat were discussing the situation in Bangkok and the northern/northeastern provinces. The consensus was ‘LOL uneducated buffaloes getting what they deserve.’ Laughter and everything.
I called them on it, and the response from my most outspoken coworker was to the effect that at least the army is turning its guns on a more worthy target than folks here. I told her that, from my chats with redshirts during my vacation in BKK, the opinion was mutual. She sniffed, “They’re just stupid. At least we in the south are educated.”
That particular coworker is a bit of a drama queen and to be taken with a grain of salt; all the same, I don’t think I’ll be spending much time in my office tomorrow. I don’t want to take sides in all this, but the prejudice (and, sometimes, open racism) of both sides is unacceptable. May everyone come to their senses sooner rather than later.
Burning, curfew
JohnH @ #15
Re :
Anyone considered the idea that Aphisit asks/orders the army to take over (for a while) and imposes marshall law to ’sort out the lawlessness’?
Or that a PAD-style 50% voting system is introduced.
Or that Bangkok and all provinces north thereof are now Pattani – and probably will be for years to come.
Sadly, this promises to be a very long civil war.
Burning, curfew
BANGKOK: — The Criminal Court Wednesday approved the request of the Department of Special Investigation to issue arrest warrant against former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and nine other people on charge of terrorism.
DSI director-general Tharit Pengdit said the nine other people wanted on the arrest warrant are Adisorn Piengket, Wiphuthalaeng Phattanaphumthai, Phayup Punket, Jeng Dokjik, Wichian Khaokham, Aree Krainara, Suksek Poltua, Surachai Thewarat and Rachata Wongyod.
Borrowed from Thai Visa here:
http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-Court-Approves-Arrest-Warrant-t367072.html
Thai Embassy response to Hartcher
Kriengsak discredits himself in his first point — he doesn’t know his history. On May 20 1992 military troops were moving in on thousands of protesting students at Ramkhamhaeng university with orders to shoot, when Bhumibol finally intervened. While at Thammasat in 1976, I think, but not sure, that the number of students there was in the hundreds.
Burning, curfew
Speaking of censorship and media manipulation, Thai PBS just aired film of two red shirt leaders, Jatuporn and the tall guy with a moustache, arriving by helicopter at an army base in, I think, Lopburi or Petchuapkirikan.
It seems the government is at pains to demonstate some degree of tranparency on their present fate, at least for the moment.
Burning, curfew
@Charles F
Since history is always written by the winners, I’m afraid your right.
The heroic Thai army won the historic battle against fierce red terrorists armed to the teeth with old tires, bung fai and M-150 glass-fragment grenades.
Let’s hope they restore order soon, so we can enjoy the blissful calm courtesy of the friendly military junta.
I’m glad the looming prospect of snap elections has been avoided (how awful that would have been!). Miscellaneous death and destruction of uneducated peasants (sorry, terrorists… hard to keep up) is certainly worth it.
Day 5 – how much longer?
My son in Chiang Mai reports that in the past 24 hours there were tires burning at Central Department Store, Chiang Mai and reports of an explosion.
Question is: if these reports are true, how widespread are these incidents beyond BKK? what is the purpose? Is Red Rage going to express itself like this outside of Bangkok? How will the government respond to these new threats? How will Red Shirt cell groups like in Chiang Mai and Lampang respond? Do they have the leadership to outsmart the military? Or will it be like in the 1970s when people fled to “pink” zones in Mae Hong Son/Mae Jaem, Luy Province and Nong Kai? There are no forests left there in which to really “hide” and sattellite technology can detect them in thier hideouts.
Or could they attempt urban guerrilla warfare on a low-key scale?
Or could they just give up and wait for a better day?
Hmm. I think I better have another sip of coffee and pray for peace.
Thai Embassy response to Hartcher
I think the article is spot on and the ambassador’s response is just another embarrassment for this horrible government. What I want to ask is; “Is there anyway like minded and concerned people like myself can join together to oppose the disgusting actions of the illegitimate Thai government?”. Is there any way this website can facilitate this?
Burning, curfew
Charles, # 17
So from now on, let us call Abhisit the saviour of Thailand and confer him honorary degree on peace studies.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
Leeyiankun ,
I didn’t see anything in Jit’s comment about “the reds, and how lowly they are on your humanity scale. ” these are your words.
he said – well you can read it above – he just said they blew their
opportunity.
I know this is a difficult, passionate topic, but twisting each others
words to make them more emotive is not going to help anyone.