Portman,
There will always be hardliners. But the government should have focus on the moderates and continue to marginalize the hardliners instead on working to fan the flames of hatred in the country and play the blame Taksin game. Even if I were to buy that, I can only say both Taksin and Ahbisit are childish in their pride and ego. But Ahbisit is now PM, and the lives of those mostly unarmed and innocent protesters are in his hands and his responsibility. The deaths by the snipers are from his orders, or his inability to control those with snipers. PM Ahbisit should have continue to work on the Nov 24 elections, NOT withdraw the offer. The PM should NEVER have said NO to senators offering to negotiate. Lives could have been saved.
Mike – the problem, as I have tried to point out, is that in times like this people DO believe this kind of garbage. And it is difficult, if not impossible, to get at the truth when such propaganda or lies ARE believed by people.
Last night, an army spokesman aired a vid. clip that showed a number of dead soldiers being taken away by helicoptor after being shot in the head by their commanders for refusing to ‘fight’ the protesters.
The vid. was taken in the far south LAST YEAR after ‘terrorists’ had blown up the truck they were in, and then shot them in the head as they lay on the ground already dead or injured. The film WAS made out of Bangkok – open spaces, palm trees, no high rises etc. etc.
The thought crossed my mind at the time that maybe Psych. Ops had inserted this onto the internet so they could refute it on TV and to the public, simply to further rubbish the red shirts.
it is not the end: it is the beginning; I just gave an inteview on ABC Adelaide where I said that we should now watch the rural towns and cities, poor neighbourhoods, and those conscientized more socially responsive elements of civil society. Lets see if folk are going to take what the falangists are handing out in turning democracy off at the source; the heart of the nation-state is the countryside. The only way forward now for the fascist clique is to close Thailand and look to Burma. Lets see. Anyone up for a demonstration outside the Thai Embassy in Canberra?
Hi,
Since there is some talk here about ‘vote-buying’, I’d like to add my two cents.
Let’s go back to the mid 1980s (that was when the process at that time was shown to me)
First, when a politician buy votes, his agent will contact a village head and give the VH a sum of money. The VH will guarantee the village’s votes for the politican. The VH then distribute the money to the villagers, but not before taking a HUGE cut for himself. On voting day, the VH will be at the ballot box, the paper are thin enough, the VH can see who failed to vote as he ordered, and that person will suffer the consequences somehow eventually. This is how certain families pass on their MP positions from father to son. Whole villages are bought and controlled that way.
After the 92 massacre, changes came slowly, but eventually 9 years later led to two things: thicker paper, and centralized counting away from the VH control.
The 2001 elections that gave TRT the majority saw the ‘end’ of several families – such as the humiliating defeat of the assavahame (not sure how to spell) family. A small but rising number of villagers now takes bribes from multiple sources, and actually for the first time voted for who they wanted to without fear. The following year also saw the deaths of several VHs who failed to deliver.
A lot more villagers took money from all sides and voted as they please in 2005, handing TRT the first ever real landslide win in Thailand. (Yes, I asked my driver and helper they proudly told me how much they got from who… and Taksin is not the most generous, that was why my driver voted for him as he reasoned the more you give the more you take)
As such, I would say, Thailand never had real democracy for the villagers until 2001. And it was taken away in 2006
Well the shows over and without the massacre foretold by the doomsayers.
I hope some people will now reconsider their views of the Thai government and particularly the army. It’s not run by the jackbooted thugs of the 90’s. Things change.
There is a huge divide in Thai society. If we care to admit Thailand and Thai people are violent at heart, why else, would we sat through recycled remake of soap opera where rape and violence of all forms are the norm.
The blood-thirsty comments voiced proudly and outloud by many of my acquintances, often within presence of children, are shameful. What message are we sending to our children, that killing is OK, that condoning violence is OK.
We all have blood on our hand now, no matter what colour shirt we choose to wear.
Police have Jatuporn and Nuttawut in custody. Hopefully that’s the end of the violence for now. Unfortunately Thaksin has already implied there will be an ongoing insurgent campaign. I wonder who’ll be paying for that.
I lived in my in-laws’ village for a month, and attended several rallies in Khon Kaen. I can say without a doubt, that nobody was paid to attend. On the contrary, every night at the rally, representatives of various villages would carry a money-tree up on stage. This was money collected from people in their village to support the protest. Sometimes, people also donated things like a bag of chillies, or a few cases of Mama noodles. Each money-tree was accompanied by a list which detailed the village of origin, along with the names and amounts of money given by each individual. The one presenting the money, would then give a statement if they wished, into the microphone. It was a jovial and electrifying atmosphere. Everyone in attendance was there because they BELIEVE in the cause! That is what some people refuse to believe. Nobody is getting ‘paid to protest’… they are rightly incensed at the state of their country, and happily jump on the buses or trucks to Bangkok. If they are given any ‘pocket money’, it is being gladly donated by their friends and neighbors. We met many people who have gone, come back, and will go again. Nobody is being held hostage by anyone other than the army snipers. The garbage about confiscated ID cards? Think about it for half a second. Would anyone let the loss of their ID card prevent them from fleeing a life-threatening situation? My wife recently replaced her card, and I think it was something like 30 Baht! Definitely not a barrier to free movement. On the same point, who would risk their lives for whatever-amount-of-money-per-day they are supposedly getting? The government is in overdrive, frantically trying to spread every falsehood they can, to keep people from realizing that people are protesting because they WANT to.
And for me this lies at the heart of this current problem. Not so much what someone knows, but the unquestioning and unfailing belief in it.
We have all had a chance, long and exhausting no doubt, to look at the often contradictory evidence presented all over NM in the last week or so, but few of us have had the opportunity to be there when it happened, or know with certainty if something is or was true or not.
We have our own personal experiences of living here and we all know someone who shares their personal experience with us, but that single degree of separation from the actual event is often enough to cast doubt in someone’s mind. What is the truth?
Most of on NM can only hope to judge another poster’s integrity and the truth in their comments from the way it accords with ours; this also has many deciding factors; namely and to name but a few, our personal knowledge and understanding of the same event, the general and specific experience of living here, our personal biases, ideological standpoints, interpretation and application of what is right and fair for people in our society and even the language we choose to express our thoughts.
Highly emotive words and lofty ideals have been expressed on NM during these last fews days from those who support either side of the current political . Facts have been presented as the truth, while others have tried to discredit them. Opposing discussion and debate has gone on. The truth, for many of us, is not at the heart of the question any more.
The truth, at the moment, is that the protest is coming to end.
As I write, the news is reporting that the red leaders at Rajaprasong are calling for the protest to stop, but even here Nattawut and Jatoporn are saying this (movement) will not stop.
Meanwhile, smoke, explosions and the sound of gun fire continues unabatted within the the camp at Rajaprasong…
Chris Beale (re your response to David’s point “If there were more men or women as brave As Giles Umprakorn in Thailand” — “Excuse me – but Giles is NOT IN Thailand these days”):
David’s point is valid — he was wishing for more brave people, like Giles, in Thailand. He wasn’t suggesting Giles is in Thailand.
In any event, Giles can be called brave even though he fled lese majeste charges. There’s brave and there’s stupid. Unless he fled the country he would sit in an inhumane prison while waiting trial on inhumane charges of speaking his mind. (And while in prison his voice would probably not be heard.)
He is still brave because he continues to speak his mind even though he knows it worsens his chances of ever returning to Thailand.
In a democracy you can choose who to have a conversation with and you can define what is sensible for yourself.
In Thailand, you cannot do this. The Government defines these things for you.
You maybe don’t want to have a conversation with Giles. That is your prerogative.
Perhaps I would like to have this conversation with him and those who read him but legally I cannot read his writings here so the conversation is strangled at birth. That, apparently, is the state’s prerogative.
As much as Thaksin is demonized by the yellow (PAD) collective, they should be wiring him moneygrams, flowers and lavishing him with other tokens of appreciation.
It was him and his TRT party which passed a host of laws in 2005 which the CRES has been using to censor media and implement a host of other emergency decrees to deal with this situation. (Not saying some of the actions haven’t been appropriate, just pointing this out.)
What is notable (again) is that the former government invoked none of the tools available to them to disperse the yellow shirts when they took over the airports in 2008.
Thai PBS TV station at 0600 GMT on 19 May reported and carried clip of Italian journalist shot dead after being hit on the chest while working on Rajdamri Rd.
The station’s field correspondent clearly said the bullet came from Chula hospital.
“A split in the leadership” is not the same as the myth that would have it that a 2nd generation of leadership has taken over the Red movement.
Kwanchai has been a regular at Raj for a long time, hardly qualifies him as somehow 2nd generation; Arisman has never been a regular among the core leaders who speak down there.
The last time I was at Rajprasong for anything “significant” was the day the leaders announced their conditional acceptance of the roadmap. First 3 speakers soft-pedalled their acceptance and got a lukewarm at best response from the crowd. Kwanchai came on 4th and peppered his acceptance with shots at Abhisit’s credibility and got wild cheers.
The crowd has had its own opinion for quite some time. My one contact in the Red rank and file, when I asked her how they felt about the roadmap and the leader’s “conditional acceptance” said something like “It doesn’t matter. We want Abhisit to go.”
I suspect she was far from alone in that sentiment, just as she is far from alone now– down at Rajprasong.
Not brainwashed, not ordered, just committed. But you’d have to respect her as I have come to over the past 6 weeks to be able to believe that.
And yes, I think Seh Daeng was blowing smoke when he said that Thaksin had “ordered” anything of the kind. Implying that Thaksin was in a postion to give this kind of “order” was the substance of the “smoke” and the “2nd generation” merely the form.
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Too many eggs in the royal basket
Portman,
There will always be hardliners. But the government should have focus on the moderates and continue to marginalize the hardliners instead on working to fan the flames of hatred in the country and play the blame Taksin game. Even if I were to buy that, I can only say both Taksin and Ahbisit are childish in their pride and ego. But Ahbisit is now PM, and the lives of those mostly unarmed and innocent protesters are in his hands and his responsibility. The deaths by the snipers are from his orders, or his inability to control those with snipers. PM Ahbisit should have continue to work on the Nov 24 elections, NOT withdraw the offer. The PM should NEVER have said NO to senators offering to negotiate. Lives could have been saved.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
Mike – the problem, as I have tried to point out, is that in times like this people DO believe this kind of garbage. And it is difficult, if not impossible, to get at the truth when such propaganda or lies ARE believed by people.
Last night, an army spokesman aired a vid. clip that showed a number of dead soldiers being taken away by helicoptor after being shot in the head by their commanders for refusing to ‘fight’ the protesters.
The vid. was taken in the far south LAST YEAR after ‘terrorists’ had blown up the truck they were in, and then shot them in the head as they lay on the ground already dead or injured. The film WAS made out of Bangkok – open spaces, palm trees, no high rises etc. etc.
The thought crossed my mind at the time that maybe Psych. Ops had inserted this onto the internet so they could refute it on TV and to the public, simply to further rubbish the red shirts.
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
it is not the end: it is the beginning; I just gave an inteview on ABC Adelaide where I said that we should now watch the rural towns and cities, poor neighbourhoods, and those conscientized more socially responsive elements of civil society. Lets see if folk are going to take what the falangists are handing out in turning democracy off at the source; the heart of the nation-state is the countryside. The only way forward now for the fascist clique is to close Thailand and look to Burma. Lets see. Anyone up for a demonstration outside the Thai Embassy in Canberra?
Too many eggs in the royal basket
Hi,
Since there is some talk here about ‘vote-buying’, I’d like to add my two cents.
Let’s go back to the mid 1980s (that was when the process at that time was shown to me)
First, when a politician buy votes, his agent will contact a village head and give the VH a sum of money. The VH will guarantee the village’s votes for the politican. The VH then distribute the money to the villagers, but not before taking a HUGE cut for himself. On voting day, the VH will be at the ballot box, the paper are thin enough, the VH can see who failed to vote as he ordered, and that person will suffer the consequences somehow eventually. This is how certain families pass on their MP positions from father to son. Whole villages are bought and controlled that way.
After the 92 massacre, changes came slowly, but eventually 9 years later led to two things: thicker paper, and centralized counting away from the VH control.
The 2001 elections that gave TRT the majority saw the ‘end’ of several families – such as the humiliating defeat of the assavahame (not sure how to spell) family. A small but rising number of villagers now takes bribes from multiple sources, and actually for the first time voted for who they wanted to without fear. The following year also saw the deaths of several VHs who failed to deliver.
A lot more villagers took money from all sides and voted as they please in 2005, handing TRT the first ever real landslide win in Thailand. (Yes, I asked my driver and helper they proudly told me how much they got from who… and Taksin is not the most generous, that was why my driver voted for him as he reasoned the more you give the more you take)
As such, I would say, Thailand never had real democracy for the villagers until 2001. And it was taken away in 2006
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
“So what have they gained that they wouldn’t have had from the negotiations..”
Hopefully the understanding that they can’t fight the state with force and should confine themselves to legitimate methods.
It’s the second time they’ve been taught this lesson, though.
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
The army is the most to gain from this. If uprising is unavoidable, the government from now on will have to listen to the army.
Shame, really.
Jit, you haven’t noticed that even in this crackdown, the army lies AGAIN, in their saying ‘we won’t move in on Rachaprasong’.
How’s that for a typical thai army comment.
Lies, Lies, and more lies.
Not a single word is to be believed.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
Well the shows over and without the massacre foretold by the doomsayers.
I hope some people will now reconsider their views of the Thai government and particularly the army. It’s not run by the jackbooted thugs of the 90’s. Things change.
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
There is a huge divide in Thai society. If we care to admit Thailand and Thai people are violent at heart, why else, would we sat through recycled remake of soap opera where rape and violence of all forms are the norm.
The blood-thirsty comments voiced proudly and outloud by many of my acquintances, often within presence of children, are shameful. What message are we sending to our children, that killing is OK, that condoning violence is OK.
We all have blood on our hand now, no matter what colour shirt we choose to wear.
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
Surrendered.
So what have they gained that they wouldn’t have had from the negotiations before April 10, or from accepting the road map last week?
You have to question the quality of the leadership.
Never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
Police have Jatuporn and Nuttawut in custody. Hopefully that’s the end of the violence for now. Unfortunately Thaksin has already implied there will be an ongoing insurgent campaign. I wonder who’ll be paying for that.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
I lived in my in-laws’ village for a month, and attended several rallies in Khon Kaen. I can say without a doubt, that nobody was paid to attend. On the contrary, every night at the rally, representatives of various villages would carry a money-tree up on stage. This was money collected from people in their village to support the protest. Sometimes, people also donated things like a bag of chillies, or a few cases of Mama noodles. Each money-tree was accompanied by a list which detailed the village of origin, along with the names and amounts of money given by each individual. The one presenting the money, would then give a statement if they wished, into the microphone. It was a jovial and electrifying atmosphere. Everyone in attendance was there because they BELIEVE in the cause! That is what some people refuse to believe. Nobody is getting ‘paid to protest’… they are rightly incensed at the state of their country, and happily jump on the buses or trucks to Bangkok. If they are given any ‘pocket money’, it is being gladly donated by their friends and neighbors. We met many people who have gone, come back, and will go again. Nobody is being held hostage by anyone other than the army snipers. The garbage about confiscated ID cards? Think about it for half a second. Would anyone let the loss of their ID card prevent them from fleeing a life-threatening situation? My wife recently replaced her card, and I think it was something like 30 Baht! Definitely not a barrier to free movement. On the same point, who would risk their lives for whatever-amount-of-money-per-day they are supposedly getting? The government is in overdrive, frantically trying to spread every falsehood they can, to keep people from realizing that people are protesting because they WANT to.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
Tarrin 73 – Thanks for your comments, truly.
And for me this lies at the heart of this current problem. Not so much what someone knows, but the unquestioning and unfailing belief in it.
We have all had a chance, long and exhausting no doubt, to look at the often contradictory evidence presented all over NM in the last week or so, but few of us have had the opportunity to be there when it happened, or know with certainty if something is or was true or not.
We have our own personal experiences of living here and we all know someone who shares their personal experience with us, but that single degree of separation from the actual event is often enough to cast doubt in someone’s mind. What is the truth?
Most of on NM can only hope to judge another poster’s integrity and the truth in their comments from the way it accords with ours; this also has many deciding factors; namely and to name but a few, our personal knowledge and understanding of the same event, the general and specific experience of living here, our personal biases, ideological standpoints, interpretation and application of what is right and fair for people in our society and even the language we choose to express our thoughts.
Highly emotive words and lofty ideals have been expressed on NM during these last fews days from those who support either side of the current political . Facts have been presented as the truth, while others have tried to discredit them. Opposing discussion and debate has gone on. The truth, for many of us, is not at the heart of the question any more.
The truth, at the moment, is that the protest is coming to end.
As I write, the news is reporting that the red leaders at Rajaprasong are calling for the protest to stop, but even here Nattawut and Jatoporn are saying this (movement) will not stop.
Meanwhile, smoke, explosions and the sound of gun fire continues unabatted within the the camp at Rajaprasong…
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
Reds can continue to fight in parliament or through civil society where they are more than welcome.
If they show commitment to constitutional rules they can get elections even before Nov 14 as it’s now Abhisit’s turn to step forward.
Perhaps they’d even realize that election date is not a point of contention at all and they have a lot more issues to address first.
Giles Ungpakorn on asset seizures, etc
Chris Beale (re your response to David’s point “If there were more men or women as brave As Giles Umprakorn in Thailand” — “Excuse me – but Giles is NOT IN Thailand these days”):
David’s point is valid — he was wishing for more brave people, like Giles, in Thailand. He wasn’t suggesting Giles is in Thailand.
In any event, Giles can be called brave even though he fled lese majeste charges. There’s brave and there’s stupid. Unless he fled the country he would sit in an inhumane prison while waiting trial on inhumane charges of speaking his mind. (And while in prison his voice would probably not be heard.)
He is still brave because he continues to speak his mind even though he knows it worsens his chances of ever returning to Thailand.
Giles Ungpakorn on asset seizures, etc
StanG,
In a democracy you can choose who to have a conversation with and you can define what is sensible for yourself.
In Thailand, you cannot do this. The Government defines these things for you.
You maybe don’t want to have a conversation with Giles. That is your prerogative.
Perhaps I would like to have this conversation with him and those who read him but legally I cannot read his writings here so the conversation is strangled at birth. That, apparently, is the state’s prerogative.
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
13.27 Thai time, Jatuporn announce the SURRENDER.
It is very difficult for him to say, I can hear the tears drop.
Thai Embassy response to Hartcher
All, stop giving comments on what you don’t really have idea about.
I attach herewith link to Human Rights Watch website.
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/04/30/thailand-end-street-battles-bangkok
Thai Embassy response to Hartcher
As much as Thaksin is demonized by the yellow (PAD) collective, they should be wiring him moneygrams, flowers and lavishing him with other tokens of appreciation.
It was him and his TRT party which passed a host of laws in 2005 which the CRES has been using to censor media and implement a host of other emergency decrees to deal with this situation. (Not saying some of the actions haven’t been appropriate, just pointing this out.)
What is notable (again) is that the former government invoked none of the tools available to them to disperse the yellow shirts when they took over the airports in 2008.
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
Thai PBS TV station at 0600 GMT on 19 May reported and carried clip of Italian journalist shot dead after being hit on the chest while working on Rajdamri Rd.
The station’s field correspondent clearly said the bullet came from Chula hospital.
UN, please help these people at Rajprasong !
Armoured vehicles on the move in Bangkok
Les Abbey:
“A split in the leadership” is not the same as the myth that would have it that a 2nd generation of leadership has taken over the Red movement.
Kwanchai has been a regular at Raj for a long time, hardly qualifies him as somehow 2nd generation; Arisman has never been a regular among the core leaders who speak down there.
The last time I was at Rajprasong for anything “significant” was the day the leaders announced their conditional acceptance of the roadmap. First 3 speakers soft-pedalled their acceptance and got a lukewarm at best response from the crowd. Kwanchai came on 4th and peppered his acceptance with shots at Abhisit’s credibility and got wild cheers.
The crowd has had its own opinion for quite some time. My one contact in the Red rank and file, when I asked her how they felt about the roadmap and the leader’s “conditional acceptance” said something like “It doesn’t matter. We want Abhisit to go.”
I suspect she was far from alone in that sentiment, just as she is far from alone now– down at Rajprasong.
Not brainwashed, not ordered, just committed. But you’d have to respect her as I have come to over the past 6 weeks to be able to believe that.
And yes, I think Seh Daeng was blowing smoke when he said that Thaksin had “ordered” anything of the kind. Implying that Thaksin was in a postion to give this kind of “order” was the substance of the “smoke” and the “2nd generation” merely the form.