Leeyiankun #28 Thank you for finally spelling that quote out for everybody.
At least I think it should be clear by now. And you are right, no Thai would
misunderstand it’s meaning.
More problematic is any finding information regarding father’s support or objection to the drug dealer assassinations with which the quote is associated. Have a go maybe your google foo is better than mine.
[…] kisah saksi mata diunduh ke web. Misalnya, Nick Nostitz yang mengisahkan pengalamannya berada dalam “zona pembantaian”. Vaitor dan Riding out the […]
– Peace talk offered by the Senate, red shirt agreed but the government don’t as they want the red shirt to stop protesting first. Meanwhile the red shirt wants gov. to stop shooting and pull back the soldiers.
– Photo, an unarmed man got shot by soldier + various scene at Bon Kai
Ken#23: Re: UN or International 3rd Party involvement:
Wasn’t Thaksin removed by military coup because he was deemed unsuitable as PM?
Seems somewhat disingenuous for the current junta to ask to be held to the same standards as the ‘unsuitable’ one – shouldn’t they be seen to be better? (or at least trying to be?)
Given the current situation and more pressing matters to hand, I would like to suggest that we debate this on a different thread at a later date.
I’m offering to write a commentary based on our brief exchanges here, put it up for approval and take it from there. Let’s say in about one month’s time – work, living, etc. etc.
Something along the lines of, ‘Corruption: Time and Change – The Lessons of History in Thailand.’
So what do you say? [Would be happy to consider it for posting on NM. AW]
Thanks for your reply. The problem is, of course, when vote buying reaches a level where it completely subverts the democratic process. (This also relates to Portman’s point about the ubiquity of pork barrel politics).
If a politician enters politics largely to protect or further his own business interests, and invests massively in getting elected, then when he comes into power it is quite likely that he will want to make that money back. The result may be a completely disfunctional democracy, where decisions and the distribution of resources are driven by in group loyalty and the perpetual cycle of graft. There is some evidence that this is the case in parts of Thailand ( e.g. the book Corruption and Democracy in Thailand etc). I very much doubt that corruption subverts democracy to this extent in Australia.
Nich, you seem to imply that democracy in Thailand functions (or at least functioned before this current mess) despite vote buying, which is simply part of Thai culture. I agree that vote buying is underpinned by Thai culture, but I’m less convinced that democracy was functioning even before the current situation kicked off.
– Abhisit blamed the Red Cross for providing foods to the protesters. He accused it would prolong the rally. This happened during the weekly cabinet meeting at Inf. 11 today.
– CRES refused the deal by the Senate to ceasefire, saying it will continue using military to pressure the protesters. Also, the Col. Sansern accused Nuttawut, the core protest leader as a “terrorist”.
– At Bon Kai, soldier’s Public Relation Operative, went to the Bon Kai community asking them to not set up campaign, it was then refused by the residents as they set fire crackers and shouting at the operation team.
In seeking an active form of civil disobedience, one may choose to deliberately break certain laws, such as by forming a peaceful blockade or occupying a facility illegally, though sometimes violence has been known to occur. Protesters practice this non-violent form of civil disorder with the expectation that they will be arrested. Others also expect to be attacked or even beaten by the authorities. Protesters often undergo training in advance on how to react to arrest or to attack, so that they will do so in a manner that quietly or limply resists without threatening the authorities.
For example, Mahatma Gandhi outlined the following rules, in the time when he was leading India in the struggle for Independence from the British Empire:
1. A civil resister (or satyagrahi) will express no anger.
2. One will sometimes suffer the anger of the opponent.
3. In doing so, one will put up with assaults from the opponent, never retaliate; but one will not submit, out of fear of punishment or the like, to any order given in anger.
4. When any person in authority seeks to arrest a civil resister, he will voluntarily submit to the arrest, and he will not resist the attachment or removal of his own property, if any, when it is sought to be confiscated by authorities.
5. If a civil resister has any property in his possession as a trustee, he will refuse to surrender it, even though defending it he might lose his life. He will, however, never retaliate.
6. Retaliation includes swearing and cursing.
7. Therefore a civil resister will never insult his opponent, and therefore also not take part in many of the newly coined cries which are contrary to the spirit of ahimsa.
8. A civil resister may not salute the Union Flag, but he will not insult it or officials, English or Indian.
9. In the course of the struggle if anyone insults an official or commits an assault upon him, a civil resister will protect such official or officials from the insult or attack even at the risk of his life.
Was Thaksin so corrupt? Probably, but that is the status quo for politicians (not just in Thailand, either), isn’t it? You have to ask yourself though, how bad was his corruption, if he was able to pay off Thailands IMF loans 10 years AHEAD of schedule! That is unheard of, and certainly was hugely beneficial to the economy. I was not a big fan of his, and was deeply troubled by his handling of both the ‘drug war’ and southern terrorism… but give him credit where it is due! Also, and because people keep ignoring this fact: He was elected, and then RE-elected! His term was cut short by a military coup! To all these people who complain that northerners, and north-easterners keep voting for ‘bad’ people… I just wish that you would come out and clearly say that you oppose democracy! You refuse to accept that certain people have their own interests, thoughts, and motivations, and so you seek to deny them self-determination. I think what you are looking for is called ‘fascism’, so you might want to remove the word ‘democracy’ from your vocabulary, since you have no right to use it.
Sadly I laughed when I saw that out of the total absurdness of it. It is quite amazing announcement from CRES. Not their first or last similar one either.
.”We spotted men who look like military shooting down at people at the protestors, on the protestors “side”. We tried to like pressure them in an unknown way and then we did nothing about it. Because uh, they were in building under construction and they had obviously fallen from the sky on top of that building and we just uh were not bothered to stop them from shooting those annoying buffaloes protesting. They must be other buffaloes shooting down at the other buffaloes. They must be black shirts in greenshirts trying to frame government and army but as I said too much work. Why bother. This has been a presentation by CRES.”
Your touching sketch of how Thailand is at this moment is unquestionably sad, and I had no intention of playing down the negatives of corruption when I said that everything is relative.
Your post says that things don’t, haven’t and will not change.
Well, things do, have, and will, I believe, continue to change.
Assuming that your friend is not a royal, no amount of bribery or calling upon a person of influence would have got her child into any school at all not that long ago in Thailand. And depending of course on what “class” your friend was born into, even more recently she would never have dared approach a “person of influence” to try to get help with placing her child in a school. Neither would she have had the money to pay the tuition.
Relative to those situations, things are better in Thailand now, in spite of corruption.
The poor are not as poor as they once were in Thailand. And that too indicates change over time. Relative to how things were in the past, many of the poorest people in Thailand are doing quite well now.
So the question is not relative to whom, as you ask, but relative to when. Change is a function of time.
And corruption is not the measure of all things in our existences, as regrettable as it surely is.
Take the vote for example. Once the respect for electoral outcomes that is being demanded in Bangkok right now is established, with time politicians and officials may learn to fear overstepping the bounds that can be set by a wary electorate. Perhaps at some time in the future your friend would be able to go to a reporter with this story and get the head of the school sacked.
If change were not possible in Thailand as you insist with such certainty, they’d still be putting inconvenient princes into bags before beating them to death with a club. Or maybe Thais would still be able to “own” their fellow citizens in a legally established manner.
Your reading of Thai history must be quite different from mine if you think nothing has changed here. I don’t deny that there are parallels and similarities and fascinating instances of old customs surviving in altered forms, even modern variations on the slavery that was finally outlawed just over a century ago.
But relative to how these customs operated in the past, things have obviously changed. I can’t see any reason why they won’t continue to do so.
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Assumptions about the next in line
I agree with Dave. The Crown Prince is in cahoots with Thaksin so I can’t imagine why they’d bother starting this crap now.
Royal sponsorship for “terrorist” funeral
Leeyiankun #28 Thank you for finally spelling that quote out for everybody.
At least I think it should be clear by now. And you are right, no Thai would
misunderstand it’s meaning.
More problematic is any finding information regarding father’s support or objection to the drug dealer assassinations with which the quote is associated. Have a go maybe your google foo is better than mine.
Royal sponsorship for “terrorist” funeral
Ralph #28
The LM Law deprives them of other alternative.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
[…] kisah saksi mata diunduh ke web. Misalnya, Nick Nostitz yang mengisahkan pengalamannya berada dalam “zona pembantaian”. Vaitor dan Riding out the […]
Royal sponsorship for “terrorist” funeral
JohnH, I’d suggest that you stick to the thread topic: Seh Daeng 🙂
Just chatted with a friend who claimed with zero support other than heresay that the CP betrayed Seh Daeng.
Again, only rumor, but there’s not even any reasonable sounding on-topic rumor on this thread.
A chance for peace?
Update: 18 May, @6.37 p.m.
– Peace talk offered by the Senate, red shirt agreed but the government don’t as they want the red shirt to stop protesting first. Meanwhile the red shirt wants gov. to stop shooting and pull back the soldiers.
– Photo, an unarmed man got shot by soldier + various scene at Bon Kai
http://rajdumnern.ownforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=409
Royal sponsorship for “terrorist” funeral
Ken#23: Re: UN or International 3rd Party involvement:
Wasn’t Thaksin removed by military coup because he was deemed unsuitable as PM?
Seems somewhat disingenuous for the current junta to ask to be held to the same standards as the ‘unsuitable’ one – shouldn’t they be seen to be better? (or at least trying to be?)
Royal sponsorship for “terrorist” funeral
Emjay,
Given the current situation and more pressing matters to hand, I would like to suggest that we debate this on a different thread at a later date.
I’m offering to write a commentary based on our brief exchanges here, put it up for approval and take it from there. Let’s say in about one month’s time – work, living, etc. etc.
Something along the lines of, ‘Corruption: Time and Change – The Lessons of History in Thailand.’
So what do you say? [Would be happy to consider it for posting on NM. AW]
Day 5 – how much longer?
today’s report at sopranz.blogspot.com
Too many eggs in the royal basket
Nich,
Thanks for your reply. The problem is, of course, when vote buying reaches a level where it completely subverts the democratic process. (This also relates to Portman’s point about the ubiquity of pork barrel politics).
If a politician enters politics largely to protect or further his own business interests, and invests massively in getting elected, then when he comes into power it is quite likely that he will want to make that money back. The result may be a completely disfunctional democracy, where decisions and the distribution of resources are driven by in group loyalty and the perpetual cycle of graft. There is some evidence that this is the case in parts of Thailand ( e.g. the book Corruption and Democracy in Thailand etc). I very much doubt that corruption subverts democracy to this extent in Australia.
Nich, you seem to imply that democracy in Thailand functions (or at least functioned before this current mess) despite vote buying, which is simply part of Thai culture. I agree that vote buying is underpinned by Thai culture, but I’m less convinced that democracy was functioning even before the current situation kicked off.
Day 5 – how much longer?
Update at 5:30 p.m. @ 18 May
– Abhisit blamed the Red Cross for providing foods to the protesters. He accused it would prolong the rally. This happened during the weekly cabinet meeting at Inf. 11 today.
See news (in Thai) http://www.thairath.co.th/content/pol/83754
– CRES refused the deal by the Senate to ceasefire, saying it will continue using military to pressure the protesters. Also, the Col. Sansern accused Nuttawut, the core protest leader as a “terrorist”.
– At Bon Kai, soldier’s Public Relation Operative, went to the Bon Kai community asking them to not set up campaign, it was then refused by the residents as they set fire crackers and shouting at the operation team.
Too many eggs in the royal basket
Portman: “Reds don’t even seem to want elections any more”
Huh? weren’t their call for a fresh election the cause of this?
What planet you’re posting this from?
Day 5 – how much longer?
Justin Alick #43
Sorry for the smug feeling. I may gave a wrong tone of my words.
here i would like to emphasize these words: “local papers” “local residents” and “too late for bkk ppl to wake”.
what I was trying to tell is: no matter what Red shirts do, those “well educated” bkk middle class will not ever, never listen to them.
Royal sponsorship for “terrorist” funeral
Any idea whether Seh Daeng’s family acknowledged the royal funeral or did they just do what they wanted to do?
Royal sponsorship for “terrorist” funeral
Ken, you’re naive. “his comment on UN’s interference was “UN is not our father”.”
Of course, in Thailand, everyone knows there is only ONE father.
Royal sponsorship for “terrorist” funeral
In seeking an active form of civil disobedience, one may choose to deliberately break certain laws, such as by forming a peaceful blockade or occupying a facility illegally, though sometimes violence has been known to occur. Protesters practice this non-violent form of civil disorder with the expectation that they will be arrested. Others also expect to be attacked or even beaten by the authorities. Protesters often undergo training in advance on how to react to arrest or to attack, so that they will do so in a manner that quietly or limply resists without threatening the authorities.
For example, Mahatma Gandhi outlined the following rules, in the time when he was leading India in the struggle for Independence from the British Empire:
1. A civil resister (or satyagrahi) will express no anger.
2. One will sometimes suffer the anger of the opponent.
3. In doing so, one will put up with assaults from the opponent, never retaliate; but one will not submit, out of fear of punishment or the like, to any order given in anger.
4. When any person in authority seeks to arrest a civil resister, he will voluntarily submit to the arrest, and he will not resist the attachment or removal of his own property, if any, when it is sought to be confiscated by authorities.
5. If a civil resister has any property in his possession as a trustee, he will refuse to surrender it, even though defending it he might lose his life. He will, however, never retaliate.
6. Retaliation includes swearing and cursing.
7. Therefore a civil resister will never insult his opponent, and therefore also not take part in many of the newly coined cries which are contrary to the spirit of ahimsa.
8. A civil resister may not salute the Union Flag, but he will not insult it or officials, English or Indian.
9. In the course of the struggle if anyone insults an official or commits an assault upon him, a civil resister will protect such official or officials from the insult or attack even at the risk of his life.
(Source: Wikipedia)
Day 5 – how much longer?
UPDATE: 18 MAY 2010
Female reporter attacked by angry protesters
By The Nation
A Thai female reporter for France 24 TV was nearly lynched while she was interviewing a woman inside the Pathumwanaram Temple at noon Tuesday.
Full story at:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/05/18/national/Female-reporter-attacked-by-angry-protesters-30129662.html
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Was Thaksin so corrupt? Probably, but that is the status quo for politicians (not just in Thailand, either), isn’t it? You have to ask yourself though, how bad was his corruption, if he was able to pay off Thailands IMF loans 10 years AHEAD of schedule! That is unheard of, and certainly was hugely beneficial to the economy. I was not a big fan of his, and was deeply troubled by his handling of both the ‘drug war’ and southern terrorism… but give him credit where it is due! Also, and because people keep ignoring this fact: He was elected, and then RE-elected! His term was cut short by a military coup! To all these people who complain that northerners, and north-easterners keep voting for ‘bad’ people… I just wish that you would come out and clearly say that you oppose democracy! You refuse to accept that certain people have their own interests, thoughts, and motivations, and so you seek to deny them self-determination. I think what you are looking for is called ‘fascism’, so you might want to remove the word ‘democracy’ from your vocabulary, since you have no right to use it.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
@55
Sadly I laughed when I saw that out of the total absurdness of it. It is quite amazing announcement from CRES. Not their first or last similar one either.
.”We spotted men who look like military shooting down at people at the protestors, on the protestors “side”. We tried to like pressure them in an unknown way and then we did nothing about it. Because uh, they were in building under construction and they had obviously fallen from the sky on top of that building and we just uh were not bothered to stop them from shooting those annoying buffaloes protesting. They must be other buffaloes shooting down at the other buffaloes. They must be black shirts in greenshirts trying to frame government and army but as I said too much work. Why bother. This has been a presentation by CRES.”
Royal sponsorship for “terrorist” funeral
John H.:
Your touching sketch of how Thailand is at this moment is unquestionably sad, and I had no intention of playing down the negatives of corruption when I said that everything is relative.
Your post says that things don’t, haven’t and will not change.
Well, things do, have, and will, I believe, continue to change.
Assuming that your friend is not a royal, no amount of bribery or calling upon a person of influence would have got her child into any school at all not that long ago in Thailand. And depending of course on what “class” your friend was born into, even more recently she would never have dared approach a “person of influence” to try to get help with placing her child in a school. Neither would she have had the money to pay the tuition.
Relative to those situations, things are better in Thailand now, in spite of corruption.
The poor are not as poor as they once were in Thailand. And that too indicates change over time. Relative to how things were in the past, many of the poorest people in Thailand are doing quite well now.
So the question is not relative to whom, as you ask, but relative to when. Change is a function of time.
And corruption is not the measure of all things in our existences, as regrettable as it surely is.
Take the vote for example. Once the respect for electoral outcomes that is being demanded in Bangkok right now is established, with time politicians and officials may learn to fear overstepping the bounds that can be set by a wary electorate. Perhaps at some time in the future your friend would be able to go to a reporter with this story and get the head of the school sacked.
If change were not possible in Thailand as you insist with such certainty, they’d still be putting inconvenient princes into bags before beating them to death with a club. Or maybe Thais would still be able to “own” their fellow citizens in a legally established manner.
Your reading of Thai history must be quite different from mine if you think nothing has changed here. I don’t deny that there are parallels and similarities and fascinating instances of old customs surviving in altered forms, even modern variations on the slavery that was finally outlawed just over a century ago.
But relative to how these customs operated in the past, things have obviously changed. I can’t see any reason why they won’t continue to do so.