Lets not forget that since 1932, the traditional way that Thailand changes government is by coup. Percentage-wise, it has far outweighed electoral change. It is hard to argue that Thailand has *ever* really enjoyed a good period of democratic rule – perhaps around ’97, but not when looked at from further afar.
It’s all images. Democracy monument – what democracy? Victory monument – what victory? etc etc
Which does also make me wonder why the reds did not take the November offer … do they dream of their majority wishes finally being respected out of struggle? I doubt it. I am more inclined to agree with Andrew and Nich – this is their thinking based on a system where they have no faith. They have the momentum – they don’t want to give it up.
In any case, a discourse coalition has been formed between reds and yellows on democracy in Thailand not functioning. The yellows don’t believe in democracy because they think that the *majority* is misinformed. The reds don’t believe in it because their choices are not supported by the system. This is not a fight for democracy, it is a fight for control.
There hasn’t been any terror campaigns in this country for about thirty years and even post 1976 events did not claim as many victims as Thaksin’s drug war, and they, like fighting communist insurgency, cannot be attributed to any single person.
I’m surprised that are wriggling your way out of a simple and straightforward question.
Who among Privy Councilors has allegedly more blood on their hands than Thaksin?
Also thanks to Supapong #125 , English Bob #123 ….. I haven’t had time to go through all the comments but you guys really said it for the Thais and our country.
Please also read Portman #121’s great explanation about the crime that Thaksin caused…
SunnyPras’s comment #90 is also very true… please do not judge any situation from one man’s view.
It’s very strange how these well-thought-of comments are being rated down… It is VERY fishy in here 🙁 …
I think Thasin has the bad idea to become a King (But in term of President). All of Thai People, Only Thai People are not allow him to do that. If he come back in Thailand, all of Thai People will try to eliminate him very faster.
Just came across a this article which is a perfect example of “official” news reporting in Thailand:
The Bangkok Post
Gunmen target innocent people: CRES
* Published: 17/05/2010 at 10:29 PM
* Online news: Breakingnews
There were about five to ten armed men firing at innocent people from a building near the Century Hotel, Col Sansern Kaewkamnerd, Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situation (CRES) spokesman, said on Monday night.
These men dressed like soldiers, he said.
According to Col Sansern, they fired shots from the 24th floor of Cheewathai building.
Authorities were trying to pressure them but the operation was done with difficulty because the building was under construction, he said.
Col Sansern also said that these armed men must be supporters of the red-shirts, because no one can enter the area except red-shirt protesters.
English Bob, thank you for telling it what it is! i like what you say so much i’d like to repeat it here if you don’t mind.
————————
The military named zones of zero tolerance… they delineated which areas would be liable to the use of live round ammunition. They warned people not to go there…
… and people went there. And tried to blockade the street. In front of armed soldiers.
And now you are surprised?
The Thai government has shown patience and restraint dealing with this protest.
2 weeks ago, UDD had won already… they had early dissolution.. they had a fixed election date. They could have dispersed with a victory.
But they continued to ‘demand’. That they get immediate bail if arrested. That Suthep report to the police. That Suthep report to THEIR choice of police…
Patience wore out when government realised they would not disperse.
And they overplayed their hand by bargaining for petty privileges. I feel sorry for the Red Shirts… they are walking towards armed soldiers while their leaders are miles behind them…
They believe they are fighting for democracy… but for them, democracy is a byword for money… they are poor and want to be rich. UDD have promised them that by overthrowing the government their lives will be better… but it’s a lie.
Who is paying for this demonstration?
Do you think they don’t expect to get their money back?
It’s all about one group of rich Thai guys trying to wrestle money and power away from another group of rich Thai guys…
I saw TV today. No women, old or young, with children or not, refused to go back from Rajprasong even if the government offers them free transportation. They stay in Pratumvanaram temple with the Red Cross’s assistance of some medical care and food. Good for the Red Cross at last. But the Chulalongkorn hospital staff have offered nothing in kindness to the sick and the injured. Shame on them!!
The rural women at Rajprasong, they have political will and determination–much more than you think. They said they were fighting for the right thing. There are no reasons that an elected government would treat their people like the way Abhisit government are treating the rural protesters who are demanding a new election and their voice be heard. Rural men and women are demanding that they be treated with respect–not gunfires. This is beyond Thaksin but many city folks–who back up Abhisit and Democrat party simply could not believe that these rural protesters too are fighting for themselves, for a better life, for empowerment, for democracy, and not a 200-500 baht a day.
Negotiations can not go forward if you have no respect and look down upon other people regarding how they think.
By the way, Thais back up the reds more than you know!!
Supapong, my comment is specifically for some other posters, not you. Please have a look at Natasha’s first post.
For what you have mentioned above, concerning violence among protestors, this must be dealt on a case-by-case basis. Not every Red-Shirt did that. In fact, we don’t even know whether it was really the Red-Shirts who did that. That means you cannot simply shoot at any protestors just because they are protestors.
Interesting quesion (5) Where is General Anupong? Has he been rolled by the hothead generals? Maybe Anupong has been a dove because he talks with all sides, and has a better feel for how far the slaughter can go before the army cracks apart, and large sections of it turn on the units doing the dirty work. Is this what the hard men in the Reds are pushing for? It is certainly what many of the people under fire would be hoping right now.
[…] von Augenzeugen wurden im Internet hochgeladen. Nick Nostitz war zum Beispiel in der тАЮTodeszone“. Vaitor und Riding out the Economy haben auch ihre […]
Can you please, please, please post any sources you may have to back up your previous statement on how Abhisit’s party came to power. I’ve been trying to find more information to back up my debates and I’m failing to find anything on it in English (I read terribly slowly in Thai). If you would be so kind as to post it here or send it to me (not sure if my email is disclosed) it would be grand.
I remember very well that day when the government announced no school to open. My sister and I were ready to get the bus but the news came. I remember as a child I cheered for not having to go to school, not knowing much what really was going on around Ratchadamnoen Road. All that was featured on TV was speeches and announcements by those generals, reading what they wanted to say. News were blocked, there’s no such thing as internet, let alone social network website. We could get news from newspapers the next day. I remember my mother commented on one death of a boy from her own village in Sakon Nakorn. He was shot in the head. The photo on the newspaper showed his body wrapped by a Thai flag. The news actually said something like he was lucky his fellow demontrators could retrieve his body before it was snatched and sent to somewhere unknown, unlike other illfated, unfound demonstrators whose bodies are still missing until these days. For a child, it all happened pretty fast, when the king called Suchinda and Chamlong in, everything ended. We talked among ourselves in our neighbourhood we all wished he came out sooner. How naieve. After that Anand was chosen to be PM. Long afterwards Thai politics of old scenes keep repeating until these days. Thaksin was a new breath, something new that threatened older versions of politicians. He makes them scared. But all in all, it is all the same in Thailand. Leaders, politicians, bureaucrats are still the same. They all want power and money for themselves. No real education measures to enhance ability and skills for Thai people. Keep people basic and keep them “poor and stupid”, that way all rich and powerful can manipulate their power and enjoy their interest and benefit. As for middle class people, eye closed as usual as long as they have shopping malls to walk in. I remember lately from a fashion magazine, Suchinda was holding a champagne glass in a hi-so event somewhere all smiling. Clearly a major role player in the massacre is still welcomed in the socalled “hi-society” in Thailand. As of now, I pray for no more deaths. But once again, I might be too naieve to pray for that.
I’ve not much thing to say ‘coz as we all know people have bias, nevertheless how many info they got they can reject them and accept only the one they like to believe, therefore no need for me to stand my point. ( Coz me too can have bias)
One thing I believe one should seek as much info before saying anything. The whole background info that made up the story should be studied before one could make an assumption on the situation.
Thaksin got his billion dollar concessions from the 92 coup boys. Facts and photos easy to find. But I guess that if you start with the premise that thaksin can do no wrong, or at least it is acceptably less wrong, you accept that thailand is lawless and you want the right to pick your strong man. Well I want to pick my own as well, I would like a monopoly license thrown in too.
There does appear to be a bias in the news reports coming out of Thailand. Articles are excessively circumspect or even changed to remove any hint that the government is embarked on a massacre. Even when a leader of the Reds is shot from above by a high velocity bullet, it is described by most news agencies in the most general way, as an attack by an unknown assailant. I can understand this coming from Thai news but from the foreign correspondants? Perhaps if there was oil found in Thailand the tone of reporting would change.
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Reds’ fatal flaw: Thailand’s fatal flaw
Lets not forget that since 1932, the traditional way that Thailand changes government is by coup. Percentage-wise, it has far outweighed electoral change. It is hard to argue that Thailand has *ever* really enjoyed a good period of democratic rule – perhaps around ’97, but not when looked at from further afar.
It’s all images. Democracy monument – what democracy? Victory monument – what victory? etc etc
Which does also make me wonder why the reds did not take the November offer … do they dream of their majority wishes finally being respected out of struggle? I doubt it. I am more inclined to agree with Andrew and Nich – this is their thinking based on a system where they have no faith. They have the momentum – they don’t want to give it up.
In any case, a discourse coalition has been formed between reds and yellows on democracy in Thailand not functioning. The yellows don’t believe in democracy because they think that the *majority* is misinformed. The reds don’t believe in it because their choices are not supported by the system. This is not a fight for democracy, it is a fight for control.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
thanks for your reports , Nick, so people can learned the truth from this. we hope red shirts save and win the tyrant. Good luck to you
17 May 1992 and 17 May 2010
Jaded #20,
There hasn’t been any terror campaigns in this country for about thirty years and even post 1976 events did not claim as many victims as Thaksin’s drug war, and they, like fighting communist insurgency, cannot be attributed to any single person.
I’m surprised that are wriggling your way out of a simple and straightforward question.
Who among Privy Councilors has allegedly more blood on their hands than Thaksin?
Day 5 – how much longer?
Angie,
Wikipedia is an excellent source of footnoted information on Thai politics and history. Search it!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhisit_Vejjajiva#Rise_to_Premiership
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Constitution_of_Thailand#Criticisms_of_the_referendum
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
TonyD #85 ….. LOVE YOU !
Also thanks to Supapong #125 , English Bob #123 ….. I haven’t had time to go through all the comments but you guys really said it for the Thais and our country.
Please also read Portman #121’s great explanation about the crime that Thaksin caused…
SunnyPras’s comment #90 is also very true… please do not judge any situation from one man’s view.
It’s very strange how these well-thought-of comments are being rated down… It is VERY fishy in here 🙁 …
Video of Thailand on the Verge
I think Thasin has the bad idea to become a King (But in term of President). All of Thai People, Only Thai People are not allow him to do that. If he come back in Thailand, all of Thai People will try to eliminate him very faster.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Anyone thinking the governement is doing it right should check out David Brown’s link here:
How western governments handle protests?
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/1b6c4l
Thanks a lot David!
Bangkok: This is a massacre
Just came across a this article which is a perfect example of “official” news reporting in Thailand:
The Bangkok Post
Gunmen target innocent people: CRES
* Published: 17/05/2010 at 10:29 PM
* Online news: Breakingnews
There were about five to ten armed men firing at innocent people from a building near the Century Hotel, Col Sansern Kaewkamnerd, Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situation (CRES) spokesman, said on Monday night.
These men dressed like soldiers, he said.
According to Col Sansern, they fired shots from the 24th floor of Cheewathai building.
Authorities were trying to pressure them but the operation was done with difficulty because the building was under construction, he said.
Col Sansern also said that these armed men must be supporters of the red-shirts, because no one can enter the area except red-shirt protesters.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
if you kill one man, you’re a murder, if you kill a thousand you’re a king, if you kill them all, you’re a god.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
English Bob, thank you for telling it what it is! i like what you say so much i’d like to repeat it here if you don’t mind.
————————
The military named zones of zero tolerance… they delineated which areas would be liable to the use of live round ammunition. They warned people not to go there…
… and people went there. And tried to blockade the street. In front of armed soldiers.
And now you are surprised?
The Thai government has shown patience and restraint dealing with this protest.
2 weeks ago, UDD had won already… they had early dissolution.. they had a fixed election date. They could have dispersed with a victory.
But they continued to ‘demand’. That they get immediate bail if arrested. That Suthep report to the police. That Suthep report to THEIR choice of police…
Patience wore out when government realised they would not disperse.
And they overplayed their hand by bargaining for petty privileges. I feel sorry for the Red Shirts… they are walking towards armed soldiers while their leaders are miles behind them…
They believe they are fighting for democracy… but for them, democracy is a byword for money… they are poor and want to be rich. UDD have promised them that by overthrowing the government their lives will be better… but it’s a lie.
Who is paying for this demonstration?
Do you think they don’t expect to get their money back?
It’s all about one group of rich Thai guys trying to wrestle money and power away from another group of rich Thai guys…
Neither group will help the poor.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
I saw TV today. No women, old or young, with children or not, refused to go back from Rajprasong even if the government offers them free transportation. They stay in Pratumvanaram temple with the Red Cross’s assistance of some medical care and food. Good for the Red Cross at last. But the Chulalongkorn hospital staff have offered nothing in kindness to the sick and the injured. Shame on them!!
The rural women at Rajprasong, they have political will and determination–much more than you think. They said they were fighting for the right thing. There are no reasons that an elected government would treat their people like the way Abhisit government are treating the rural protesters who are demanding a new election and their voice be heard. Rural men and women are demanding that they be treated with respect–not gunfires. This is beyond Thaksin but many city folks–who back up Abhisit and Democrat party simply could not believe that these rural protesters too are fighting for themselves, for a better life, for empowerment, for democracy, and not a 200-500 baht a day.
Negotiations can not go forward if you have no respect and look down upon other people regarding how they think.
By the way, Thais back up the reds more than you know!!
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Supapong, my comment is specifically for some other posters, not you. Please have a look at Natasha’s first post.
For what you have mentioned above, concerning violence among protestors, this must be dealt on a case-by-case basis. Not every Red-Shirt did that. In fact, we don’t even know whether it was really the Red-Shirts who did that. That means you cannot simply shoot at any protestors just because they are protestors.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
@ Mot : but this is our country, right?
can we comment what we think?
Day 5 – how much longer?
Interesting quesion (5) Where is General Anupong? Has he been rolled by the hothead generals? Maybe Anupong has been a dove because he talks with all sides, and has a better feel for how far the slaughter can go before the army cracks apart, and large sections of it turn on the units doing the dirty work. Is this what the hard men in the Reds are pushing for? It is certainly what many of the people under fire would be hoping right now.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
[…] von Augenzeugen wurden im Internet hochgeladen. Nick Nostitz war zum Beispiel in der тАЮTodeszone“. Vaitor und Riding out the Economy haben auch ihre […]
Day 5 – how much longer?
Hi In Town,
Can you please, please, please post any sources you may have to back up your previous statement on how Abhisit’s party came to power. I’ve been trying to find more information to back up my debates and I’m failing to find anything on it in English (I read terribly slowly in Thai). If you would be so kind as to post it here or send it to me (not sure if my email is disclosed) it would be grand.
Thanks,
Angie
17 May 1992 and 17 May 2010
I remember very well that day when the government announced no school to open. My sister and I were ready to get the bus but the news came. I remember as a child I cheered for not having to go to school, not knowing much what really was going on around Ratchadamnoen Road. All that was featured on TV was speeches and announcements by those generals, reading what they wanted to say. News were blocked, there’s no such thing as internet, let alone social network website. We could get news from newspapers the next day. I remember my mother commented on one death of a boy from her own village in Sakon Nakorn. He was shot in the head. The photo on the newspaper showed his body wrapped by a Thai flag. The news actually said something like he was lucky his fellow demontrators could retrieve his body before it was snatched and sent to somewhere unknown, unlike other illfated, unfound demonstrators whose bodies are still missing until these days. For a child, it all happened pretty fast, when the king called Suchinda and Chamlong in, everything ended. We talked among ourselves in our neighbourhood we all wished he came out sooner. How naieve. After that Anand was chosen to be PM. Long afterwards Thai politics of old scenes keep repeating until these days. Thaksin was a new breath, something new that threatened older versions of politicians. He makes them scared. But all in all, it is all the same in Thailand. Leaders, politicians, bureaucrats are still the same. They all want power and money for themselves. No real education measures to enhance ability and skills for Thai people. Keep people basic and keep them “poor and stupid”, that way all rich and powerful can manipulate their power and enjoy their interest and benefit. As for middle class people, eye closed as usual as long as they have shopping malls to walk in. I remember lately from a fashion magazine, Suchinda was holding a champagne glass in a hi-so event somewhere all smiling. Clearly a major role player in the massacre is still welcomed in the socalled “hi-society” in Thailand. As of now, I pray for no more deaths. But once again, I might be too naieve to pray for that.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
I’ve not much thing to say ‘coz as we all know people have bias, nevertheless how many info they got they can reject them and accept only the one they like to believe, therefore no need for me to stand my point. ( Coz me too can have bias)
One thing I believe one should seek as much info before saying anything. The whole background info that made up the story should be studied before one could make an assumption on the situation.
That leaves to each of you to manage.
17 May 1992 and 17 May 2010
Thaksin got his billion dollar concessions from the 92 coup boys. Facts and photos easy to find. But I guess that if you start with the premise that thaksin can do no wrong, or at least it is acceptably less wrong, you accept that thailand is lawless and you want the right to pick your strong man. Well I want to pick my own as well, I would like a monopoly license thrown in too.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
There does appear to be a bias in the news reports coming out of Thailand. Articles are excessively circumspect or even changed to remove any hint that the government is embarked on a massacre. Even when a leader of the Reds is shot from above by a high velocity bullet, it is described by most news agencies in the most general way, as an attack by an unknown assailant. I can understand this coming from Thai news but from the foreign correspondants? Perhaps if there was oil found in Thailand the tone of reporting would change.