Resisting to respect the law and rules, resisting arrest by committing even more lawlessness and even ambush civilians , armed forces on duty as well as civilian and public property can lead to fatal attractions for the lawless mob as a whole. After all they were given chances after chances. – This cannot be considered as a massacre.
Rumors have it that men from neighboring countries are going to be used to disperse the crowds. This could explain the delay in doing so and it will take away the pressure from Thai soldiers to carry out their duty.
An awful lot of justification from both sides to pin the blame on each other but you can reduce all the events of this big crisis into one simple emerging truth;
“If you want to force a change in government, round up 5,000 committed people (and some financial backing and co-operation) and lay siege to the centre of the capital city. Call it a peaceful protest for democracy and dig in until eventually you have to be forcibly removed, at which point it descends into chaos, blood is spilt and the govt has to resign in shame.”
Now, take that formula, reverse the parties, switch yellow for red and you have an unending karmic cycle of tragedy. No ifs and buts, under these murky rules the protesters, government, soldiers, vigilantes and armchair commentators all seem to have their own interpretation of what’s acceptable and what’s not.
And if everyone sat down and pondered the utter futility of all this, and concluded that neither side will ever achieve their idea of a victory, then perhaps we might be willing to reach an holistic and peaceful compromise.
#15 reply
“At the root of all society is force.The government has no option but to end this situation.The Red Shirt leadership must enter quickly into negotiations or capitulate.”
It is clear in principle: Bend to our will or we will crush you under our boot. I appreciate your willingness to honestly set forth your view as I believe it is one shared by many in Government and military. At the same time, it conveys a deep seated distrust, if not hatred, of the democratic process which is often messy, time-consuming, filled with argument and debate.
The boot and gun are much quicker. And those who live without ever experiencing human doubt are quick to reach for the gun if their views of the world are contested.
You have with your words demonstrated the great divide between the two sides and why Bangkok burns. From what I’ve seen on the streets of Bangkok with my own eyes the last few days these people are no longer willing to live with a boot pressed to their throat.
Robert Amsterdam, Thaksin’s lawyer, reported on his twitter account (@RobertAmsterdam) that purportedly there has been a ceasefire agreed and that is to be announced shortly. More twitter feeds state the negotiations began directly after the 3pm deadline.
Re. ” Regarding your comment about the unlawful actions of the protesters, I agree with you. Entering the hospital to search for snipers was wrong. The sniper that shot Seh Daeng was actually in the Dusit Hotel across Rama IV, not in the hospital.”
Are you referring to the Reds entering Chulalongkorn Hospital ?
If so, I’m only aware that they did this once – after at least one grenade was fired from at least one balcony in the hospital into Sala Daeng, about a week BEFORE the sniper shooting of Seh Daeng.
Have the Reds entered a second time ?
Are you watching the TV right now? Are you in Thailand? Did you see new born babies are being used as shields ? Such cowards !!! 🙁 When you said, this is all out of freewill, —- They cannot decide for themselves !
I didn’t write this, this is true :
“This is going to be a long note, but I want my overseas friends to understand what has been happening here in Thailand. You would only see the soldiers’ shooting scenes or injured people being carried away on international TV channels for 30 seconds, but never got to know about the background. The truth is, the Thai government has been too accommodating by withholding the use of force since the rally started 2 months ago (with the exception of 10th April event, when the soldiers were ordered to move in without live weapons and subsequently got slaughtered by unknown gunmen shooting from the ‘Red Shirt’ protesters).
The majority of us support the government in dealing with the terrorists hidden amongst the protesters. It held talks with the rally leaders and offered peace solutions to them 10 days ago. The Prime Minister publicly urged the protesters to disperse for fear of violence created by the terrorists. But the plan wasn’t accepted. So, it’s time to block food and water supplies entering the center of the protest. If the protesters were peaceful, they wouldn’t rush out to throw rocks, firecrackers and even bombs at the soldiers’ barricade — thus, causing the soldiers to defend themselves by firing rubber bullets and live rounds.
It has been very frustrating for the law-abiding citizen of Bangkok — we even voiced our dissatisfaction at the government for its failure to uphold the laws. The situation was like Bangkok was being held for ransom. A lot of businesses got affected because it’s right in the middle of the major commercial area.
Again, think what your government would do if there were a large group of protesters blocking all traffic at Orchard Road in Singapore; Times Square in NYC; Ginza in Tokyo; or Knightsbridge in London for two months. They set up barricades to search through personal belongings of everyone travelling through the area. Also think what it would do if those protesters invaded a nearby hospital, causing doctors & nurses to evacuate patients — some of whom are newborn babies in incubators and those in ICU — to other hospitals. And most important of all, think what it would do if the protesters were found to have large stockpile of M79 grenades, M16 & AK47 assault rifles.
Do you think your government would be as tolerant as the Thai government?
Reungvit Nandhabiwat
Business owner, Bangkok, Thailand
15 May 2010”
Solid advice from an armchair warrior!
If the rest of us allowed the other guys to win our battles for us we would be in the same shape Thailand is now in.
Is that what you are in favor of?
@ Leeyiankun. In case you had overlooked an obvious point, Thaksin is also a member of the elite, as are most of the other red shirt and Pheua Thai leaders. The difference between them and Ghandi is that they have no interest in peaceful protest.
Anybody who has watched Thai TV today and seen this so-called Thai actor , at a ridiculously pompous award ceremony , basically spit on the Red Shirts and tell them that they do not deserve to live in this country , will understand all that is wrong in this country .
This pathetic buffoon sycophant , barely able to express half an emotion with his dwarfed acting skills, wrapped up his ridiculous argument in the usual ” holier than thou ” love of the King .
Guess what Buddy : you do not have the monopoly on the Love of the King . The Red Shirts in their immense majority love the king as much as you do , so please try to find some more believable excuse to justify your moronic rant .
If you had 2 neurons and only 1 synapse you could understand that these tactics do not work anymore , but obviously this is beyond the reach of your minuscule intellect .
It is true that the majority of ‘red shirt’ protestors have not used violence. The tragedy of the situation is that their leadership actively incites violence and tolerates and shelters an armed wing among their ranks that use it. The 10 million other residents of Bangkok cannot tolerate ongoing grenade attacks and shootings associated with this group.
The author clearly has no idea about the extent of the violence by this armed wing which has plagued the country for the last 2 years.Targets have included the courts that dissolved Mr Thaksins party on two occasions for electoral fraud, the bank that froze his assets pending his trial for abuse of office, the Electoral Commission, the opposition party headquarters, the former leader of PAD ‘yellow shirts’, a fuel depo and a large crowd of civilians waiting to get the skytrain home after work, among many others.
Currently, the armed wing of the protestors is using M79 grenades against police, soliders and civilian targets on a daily basis. Last night there was an RPG attack against the Dusit Thani hotel, the night before reports of mortar rounds were falling on Sala Daeng. Yes, the soliders are afraid and yes they are defending themselves, should we blame them? Current public opinion polls in Bangkok support the crackdown, that’s how the residents feel about it.
The allegation that Thai citizens are being killed indiscriminantly is patently false. On 10 April the army tried to disperse the protestors using *riot gear only*. They were met with gunfire and grenades. That is why they now carry weapons.
If you have no knowledge of what is happening on the ground and can’t be bothered to educate yourself, why write uninformed articles about it? People are dying here, you think it is a joke? Do you have any clue how many people died under the Thaksin administration? Try Googling ‘extra judicial killings Thaksin’. There’s your massacre.
@ In Town – what do you have to say about the killing of Colonel Romklao, supposedly by Sae Daeng’s red paramilitary forces? Certainly that is an unlawful act by the protesters and something that likely did nothing but instigate further violence? Seems to me the reds wanted violence and now they’re getting it, unfortunately for the majority of Thais.
Puea Thai/the UDD, and Sinn Fein/the Provisional IRA, what’s the difference? After 35 years of fighting, the parties sit down and negotate a settlement. The economy is more important than countless deaths.
I’ve had some feisty e-mail exchanges with Hamish McDonald over the past month or so, trying to get him to give more coverage to developing events in Thailand.
He’s a great journalist, and the SMH carried brilliant coverage – especially by Louise Williams – of Black May ’92.
McDonald argued he needed time to “get it right”. Well he certainly got it right today, appropriately 17 May 2010 anniversary of 17 May 1992.
Great analysis – not least that part noting peace efforts by East Timor’s President Ram0s Horta, no doubt an attempt to repay Thailand for the tremendous help given by Thai troops ensuring peace in East Timor.
Congratulations Hamish – and also to the promising young Ben Doherty for his brave and well-written coverage.
Reds are not totally wrong, but where in the world do you see democracy anyway ?
Most politicians are working for their own interest. Too much power and money corrupts everything. People always end conditionned by politicians and with almost nothing left but small or no hope.
As long all the banks in the world are not nationalized and their profits are not reinvested into the society, we are just slaves working for bankers.
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Bangkok: This is a massacre
the war on drugs was a massacre. – Bingo!
Resisting to respect the law and rules, resisting arrest by committing even more lawlessness and even ambush civilians , armed forces on duty as well as civilian and public property can lead to fatal attractions for the lawless mob as a whole. After all they were given chances after chances. – This cannot be considered as a massacre.
Rumors have it that men from neighboring countries are going to be used to disperse the crowds. This could explain the delay in doing so and it will take away the pressure from Thai soldiers to carry out their duty.
Day 5 – how much longer?
@Bobby #7
How would you explain about your legitimate Abhisit’s government coalition forming with a Party, which no one in Thailand ever vote for???
Bhum-jai-thai party for example.
………………………………
Also about the hospital incident,….. what was the damage done by the UDD????
Bangkok: This is a massacre
An awful lot of justification from both sides to pin the blame on each other but you can reduce all the events of this big crisis into one simple emerging truth;
“If you want to force a change in government, round up 5,000 committed people (and some financial backing and co-operation) and lay siege to the centre of the capital city. Call it a peaceful protest for democracy and dig in until eventually you have to be forcibly removed, at which point it descends into chaos, blood is spilt and the govt has to resign in shame.”
Now, take that formula, reverse the parties, switch yellow for red and you have an unending karmic cycle of tragedy. No ifs and buts, under these murky rules the protesters, government, soldiers, vigilantes and armchair commentators all seem to have their own interpretation of what’s acceptable and what’s not.
And if everyone sat down and pondered the utter futility of all this, and concluded that neither side will ever achieve their idea of a victory, then perhaps we might be willing to reach an holistic and peaceful compromise.
Day 5 – how much longer?
#15 reply
“At the root of all society is force.The government has no option but to end this situation.The Red Shirt leadership must enter quickly into negotiations or capitulate.”
This sounds like the preamble to a fascist manifesto. (here’s one you might be interested in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_manifesto
It is clear in principle: Bend to our will or we will crush you under our boot. I appreciate your willingness to honestly set forth your view as I believe it is one shared by many in Government and military. At the same time, it conveys a deep seated distrust, if not hatred, of the democratic process which is often messy, time-consuming, filled with argument and debate.
The boot and gun are much quicker. And those who live without ever experiencing human doubt are quick to reach for the gun if their views of the world are contested.
You have with your words demonstrated the great divide between the two sides and why Bangkok burns. From what I’ve seen on the streets of Bangkok with my own eyes the last few days these people are no longer willing to live with a boot pressed to their throat.
Day 5 – how much longer?
Robert Amsterdam, Thaksin’s lawyer, reported on his twitter account (@RobertAmsterdam) that purportedly there has been a ceasefire agreed and that is to be announced shortly. More twitter feeds state the negotiations began directly after the 3pm deadline.
Day 5 – how much longer?
In Town # 14
Re. ” Regarding your comment about the unlawful actions of the protesters, I agree with you. Entering the hospital to search for snipers was wrong. The sniper that shot Seh Daeng was actually in the Dusit Hotel across Rama IV, not in the hospital.”
Are you referring to the Reds entering Chulalongkorn Hospital ?
If so, I’m only aware that they did this once – after at least one grenade was fired from at least one balcony in the hospital into Sala Daeng, about a week BEFORE the sniper shooting of Seh Daeng.
Have the Reds entered a second time ?
Bangkok: This is a massacre
What I can say ??? it is because soldier corp in the past. It’s not the real democracy after that. Then just blame General Sonthi only!!!
Day 5 – how much longer?
Channel 5 (Army) reporting via phone update, army at MBK.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Are you watching the TV right now? Are you in Thailand? Did you see new born babies are being used as shields ? Such cowards !!! 🙁 When you said, this is all out of freewill, —- They cannot decide for themselves !
I didn’t write this, this is true :
“This is going to be a long note, but I want my overseas friends to understand what has been happening here in Thailand. You would only see the soldiers’ shooting scenes or injured people being carried away on international TV channels for 30 seconds, but never got to know about the background. The truth is, the Thai government has been too accommodating by withholding the use of force since the rally started 2 months ago (with the exception of 10th April event, when the soldiers were ordered to move in without live weapons and subsequently got slaughtered by unknown gunmen shooting from the ‘Red Shirt’ protesters).
The majority of us support the government in dealing with the terrorists hidden amongst the protesters. It held talks with the rally leaders and offered peace solutions to them 10 days ago. The Prime Minister publicly urged the protesters to disperse for fear of violence created by the terrorists. But the plan wasn’t accepted. So, it’s time to block food and water supplies entering the center of the protest. If the protesters were peaceful, they wouldn’t rush out to throw rocks, firecrackers and even bombs at the soldiers’ barricade — thus, causing the soldiers to defend themselves by firing rubber bullets and live rounds.
It has been very frustrating for the law-abiding citizen of Bangkok — we even voiced our dissatisfaction at the government for its failure to uphold the laws. The situation was like Bangkok was being held for ransom. A lot of businesses got affected because it’s right in the middle of the major commercial area.
Again, think what your government would do if there were a large group of protesters blocking all traffic at Orchard Road in Singapore; Times Square in NYC; Ginza in Tokyo; or Knightsbridge in London for two months. They set up barricades to search through personal belongings of everyone travelling through the area. Also think what it would do if those protesters invaded a nearby hospital, causing doctors & nurses to evacuate patients — some of whom are newborn babies in incubators and those in ICU — to other hospitals. And most important of all, think what it would do if the protesters were found to have large stockpile of M79 grenades, M16 & AK47 assault rifles.
Do you think your government would be as tolerant as the Thai government?
Reungvit Nandhabiwat
Business owner, Bangkok, Thailand
15 May 2010”
Day 5 – how much longer?
I would also like to know more about the pri.vate who shot Seh Daeng.
Link or source ?
Day 5 – how much longer?
Why not ask Newin’s supporters whether they are upset that he changed sides?
17 May 1992 and 17 May 2010
Solid advice from an armchair warrior!
If the rest of us allowed the other guys to win our battles for us we would be in the same shape Thailand is now in.
Is that what you are in favor of?
“Loss of faith in democracy lets hardliners stick in the boot”
@ Leeyiankun. In case you had overlooked an obvious point, Thaksin is also a member of the elite, as are most of the other red shirt and Pheua Thai leaders. The difference between them and Ghandi is that they have no interest in peaceful protest.
17 May 1992 and 17 May 2010
Anybody who has watched Thai TV today and seen this so-called Thai actor , at a ridiculously pompous award ceremony , basically spit on the Red Shirts and tell them that they do not deserve to live in this country , will understand all that is wrong in this country .
This pathetic buffoon sycophant , barely able to express half an emotion with his dwarfed acting skills, wrapped up his ridiculous argument in the usual ” holier than thou ” love of the King .
Guess what Buddy : you do not have the monopoly on the Love of the King . The Red Shirts in their immense majority love the king as much as you do , so please try to find some more believable excuse to justify your moronic rant .
If you had 2 neurons and only 1 synapse you could understand that these tactics do not work anymore , but obviously this is beyond the reach of your minuscule intellect .
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Why I can not find any soldiers in this VDO ???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVLHnBsTl9s
Bangkok: This is a massacre
It is true that the majority of ‘red shirt’ protestors have not used violence. The tragedy of the situation is that their leadership actively incites violence and tolerates and shelters an armed wing among their ranks that use it. The 10 million other residents of Bangkok cannot tolerate ongoing grenade attacks and shootings associated with this group.
The author clearly has no idea about the extent of the violence by this armed wing which has plagued the country for the last 2 years.Targets have included the courts that dissolved Mr Thaksins party on two occasions for electoral fraud, the bank that froze his assets pending his trial for abuse of office, the Electoral Commission, the opposition party headquarters, the former leader of PAD ‘yellow shirts’, a fuel depo and a large crowd of civilians waiting to get the skytrain home after work, among many others.
Currently, the armed wing of the protestors is using M79 grenades against police, soliders and civilian targets on a daily basis. Last night there was an RPG attack against the Dusit Thani hotel, the night before reports of mortar rounds were falling on Sala Daeng. Yes, the soliders are afraid and yes they are defending themselves, should we blame them? Current public opinion polls in Bangkok support the crackdown, that’s how the residents feel about it.
The allegation that Thai citizens are being killed indiscriminantly is patently false. On 10 April the army tried to disperse the protestors using *riot gear only*. They were met with gunfire and grenades. That is why they now carry weapons.
If you have no knowledge of what is happening on the ground and can’t be bothered to educate yourself, why write uninformed articles about it? People are dying here, you think it is a joke? Do you have any clue how many people died under the Thaksin administration? Try Googling ‘extra judicial killings Thaksin’. There’s your massacre.
Day 5 – how much longer?
@ In Town – what do you have to say about the killing of Colonel Romklao, supposedly by Sae Daeng’s red paramilitary forces? Certainly that is an unlawful act by the protesters and something that likely did nothing but instigate further violence? Seems to me the reds wanted violence and now they’re getting it, unfortunately for the majority of Thais.
17 May 1992 and 17 May 2010
Puea Thai/the UDD, and Sinn Fein/the Provisional IRA, what’s the difference? After 35 years of fighting, the parties sit down and negotate a settlement. The economy is more important than countless deaths.
“Loss of faith in democracy lets hardliners stick in the boot”
I’ve had some feisty e-mail exchanges with Hamish McDonald over the past month or so, trying to get him to give more coverage to developing events in Thailand.
He’s a great journalist, and the SMH carried brilliant coverage – especially by Louise Williams – of Black May ’92.
McDonald argued he needed time to “get it right”. Well he certainly got it right today, appropriately 17 May 2010 anniversary of 17 May 1992.
Great analysis – not least that part noting peace efforts by East Timor’s President Ram0s Horta, no doubt an attempt to repay Thailand for the tremendous help given by Thai troops ensuring peace in East Timor.
Congratulations Hamish – and also to the promising young Ben Doherty for his brave and well-written coverage.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Reds are not totally wrong, but where in the world do you see democracy anyway ?
Most politicians are working for their own interest. Too much power and money corrupts everything. People always end conditionned by politicians and with almost nothing left but small or no hope.
As long all the banks in the world are not nationalized and their profits are not reinvested into the society, we are just slaves working for bankers.