So many comments and examples of “what if outsiders came into your town, what you would do”. Since when red shirts are plain outsiders? Is it so hard to get in your head that there is darn plenty Bangkokians there?
I did discuss this with some friends, this effect of “us” and “them”. Think little what it reminds you of? Most violent conflicts! This sort of “division” is always necessary to create violent combat situation AND to “justify”action. This division is typical for racism also and hate speech. Think all those “goons” and “charlies” killed in WWII and Vietnam War. Or Rwanda and the tribal separation. Or when soldiers speak about those “rag heads” when they shoot them or “jews that suck blood of baby muslims” and so on and on.
All these commentators, foreign and Thai alike, are doing exactly that: using partly or fully this as justifying events with the “us” vs “them” line. Many Thais go as far as tell red shirts that “if they don’t like Thailand and the King, they can go to some other country” or by simply calling and picturing them as buffaloes, like in Manager magazine or multiple Thai websites. Or as dogs. All these are very strong Thai racist and degrading methods. Nigger anyone? This is equal to any racial slur and slander and pure racism.
I am no psychologist and have not read about combat and military psychology, but I get a feeling that this sort of division is sort of necessary “protection mechanism” that needs to be used to make people able to kill and be violent against other people.
Mr. Bennington– the “polemics of the moment” are precisely that-polemics, which, as I’m sure you’re aware, means “strong written or verbal attacks on someone or something.” As your polemical response being another token of the type amply illustrates, polemics are a poor guide to forming carefully reasoned and thoughtful reactions to history’s vicissitudes.
Furthermore, it’s misleading to suggest that I imply that we ought to somehow dehumanize anyone involved in this crisis, much less to callously ignore or feebly attempt to justify human suffering. My point was that intellectuals and dilettantes alike would do well to avoid settling on morally charged judgements until the dust has at least cleared, and we have more relevant facts at hand to base our opinions on.
Clearly, I was not in any way suggesting that “oppostion to asymetric warfare and deliberate dehumanization of political opponents is only recorded to “bolster […] professional credibility.”–rather, I was pointing out that claims to authoritative interpretations of current events are linked to the political economy of academia in ways that aren’t transparently simple, but rather are fraught with ethical dilemmas whose resolution requires something a bit more nuanced than righteous indignation or picking a side in someone else’s fights.
But then, judging, condemning, and impassioned polemics garner more attention than balanced efforts to reach a more complete understanding.
Wouldn’t it be interesting to do a ‘where were they then’ on some of the politicians of today?
Well if you take a look at the careers of the Privy Council you will find some of the answers to your question. The careers of senior judicial appointees can also be interesting.
UDDP is non-violent in the same sense as PAD is. They are only non-violent as long as not getting attacked. But if getting attacked they fight back with whatever means they have.
But as in any large crowd, you will find some people more prone to violence than others. In the end, both UDDP and PAD consists of individuals, who may take actions that are not in line with the policy of the organization. Saying that reds are bad is a little bit like saying that men, blacks, Muslims or Republicans are bad.
In response to concerns about the hiding of the poorly rated comments. I have been trying to tweak the system so that such comments are differently colour coded, but not hidden. But I have not succeeded. So, in the interim I have set the threshold very high – 500 more thumbs down than thumbs up. Given the large amount of traffic I have also changed the settings for highly rated (30 more thumbs up than thumbs down) and hot topic (total of 50 or more ratings). I will keep tweaking as time goes on. I accept that some readers have very valid reservations about the system but I think a system for quick and easy reader feedback on comments is worth a try.
I’ve recently heard that twenty five bodies are being stored in a temple and can attest to the fact that no ambulances or emergency vehicles are being allowed into the Rangnam area. The fact is that it is a massacre. Every afternoon since Friday I’ve been hearing rifle fire. I don’t think these are warning shots. I’ve seen massive areas of congealing blood on the corner of Rangnam road which would suggest otherwise. When you arm a bunch of teenagers and instill hatred there is no chance for intelligent dialogue. Those people who call for the reds to be shot should see unarmed people taking fire. Don’t sit in your arm chairs, come down to Rangnam and see the bloodshed, perhaps then you would change your mind about the justification of armed violence. I’m not saying I agree entirely with the reds but this is too much.
I couldn’t believe that a basically peaceful Thai could take aim a sniper rifle at another Thai and easily pull the trigger. Even a battle-hardened Burmese soldier has trouble doing the same thing.
Use of the term massacre is truly justified once a group of heavily armed troops started firing at their own people, unarmed or not, deliberately and indiscriminately.
In a civilized society the riot police are there to quell the civilian unrest as the Greeks have recently shown to the world. Once the army is involved the large scale loss of lives is a guaranteed outcome, and the unrest becomes a civil war with dire consequences.
I pray for the fellow Thais that their society will not fall apart as the neighboring society of their long suffering brothers and sisters in Burma!
Chris – I take the point that it can escalate slowly in Thailand. At the same time, the protesters have a limited window of opportunity to build momentum before either the military restores order and/or the international media loses interest. We haven’t see this escalate into mass civil disobedience (yet) and the government is partially winning the PR war in labeling the remaining protesters as “terrorists”.
Jim – the “roadmap” comparison, especially in regards to Israel/Palestine is very apt. I did interpret the news that the government would offer new elections. However, I didn’t expect the powers that be would allow it to be entirely free and fair (after all, that would mean the ruling class handing over substantial ruling power). But that is another issue and repeated protest (or threat of civil disobedience) would have arguably been a better tactic in constraining the government’s actions in this regard.
“I stand with my countrymen in this terrible hour in our history. The pictures that I have seen go beyond any nightmares that could have been envisaged. I have no choice but to state resolutely the need for all sides to step back from this terrible abyss and seek to begin a new, genuine and sincere dialogue between the parties.
“The present action of the government dishonour our history and will forever weaken our institutions and democracy. How can life be revered when the government uses its live bullets against innocent non-violent protesters and civilians, many of them women and children.
“I call for the United Nations to immediately engage to act as facilitator for this negotiation. That organization should not allow itself to be silenced by a prime minister who failed to understand that a right to life is a core universal value that unites us all as one.”
Wikiquote: “UN is not my father” — in a reply to a reporter when asked to comment on the Human Rights Office of the UN going to send officers to observe the implementation of the Thai Anti-drug scheme.
Dear Supapong, my Eng is not quite well, but i will try to tell you that..
During post 2000 eco crisis, I and friends’d once been fooled so crazily by PAD (yellow shirt) after we’d been solely consuming only onto his medias where 90% of columns targeted all the blames and cheating accusation on democrat party (the party that I and friends always voted for prior to 2000).
The madness and highly intense patriot feeling (against democrat) lasted for many months until we found out that ‘sonthi ’ (later yellow shirt leader) ‘s lost interests, really lied behind many accusations (and for the next government, taksin, too). We never forget that stupid feeling and also learnt lessons of how media can easily lure people just by keep manipulating information.
Anyway, I later still voted for democrat that time (lost to Taksin party then). However, for all 4-yr full term governing of Taksin, he performed so well, especially on economy and social policy executions (My job involved economic situation analysis) that I voted for him in next election.
As my job then related to economic situation, I kept witnessing the dynamic movement within each economic small sectors in each provinces during Taksin 1st term. That’s how huge domestic consumption (i’m talking about non-gdp which bigger than gdp that less people interested) really dragged the country’s fast recovery. I also believe that some of social welfare he established (caused many argument from doctors who lost the clinic customers) was really effective that it relieved severity of the chronic ‘inequalities’ of the country (if u study poverty, research on Gini indicators, just for income side, instead of poverty line). Inequality never been relieved by any government incl. old party like democrat. So the problems had long been left wide spreading from that of income to that of education, land dwelling, standard medical access, etc, and from generations to generations. At present, it became roots or underlying problems to most economic and social problems of the country. The poor (no matter now or 4 decades ago) still born and die poorly, but with more limited opportunities (esp. education). Family quality’s lower, more frequent in insolvency with a year from debt burden, higher vulnerability of drug abuses and other social problems. While those of rich generations, born with opportunities and facilities, always see and judge whole country as merely Bangkok! Teenages today mostly lack of social responsibility and doesn’t feel they related to any although we are in the same economic hook. Latest ADB analysis says that the problems is not the rich and the poor anymore, but that “the rich are getting rich FASTER than the poor!!.. Check Thailand’s inequality stat., although rare. (I still have more things to tell the space’s never enough).
I don’t need absolute zero inequalities, that’s impossible. I once really glad that the problems’s lessen in Taksin term. Old Guru and scholars who came out and severely criticized Taksin policy including democrat party are all sucked and should be get rid of. They’d been wasting the time to hold the information for so long in the past, but do nothing even lessening, if they think they smart enough.
Today, strange justices and skeptical legal enforcement after 2006 coup, including bad medias drove me far away wandering the internet for more true information. Now I became the one who never watch Thai TV and readThai/Eng (Thai-owned) newspaper for more than 3 years. Thank you for reading.
I’m not convinced the comments rating system is working. People are voting according to whether or not they agree with the comment, rather than its quality. Many of the anti-redshirt comments are heavily voted down and therefore ‘sentenced’ to be hidden from view – a bizarre form of self-censorship that I doubt is in accord with the original intentions of NM. I come across many comments that I rate highly, even though I may not personally agree with the view expressed. I’d like to be free to make up my own mind about a comment’s quality without having to double click through to the hidden, or ‘censored’, text.
Barnsybkk is right. There is a tolerance of massacres. The Tak Bai massacre was widely seen on the web and CD and shown on TV for a short time if I remember correctly.
I went to the demonstration against the massacre expecting thousands to be there. There were about 2-3 hundred of us. Hugely outnumberred by the police.
But the current rulers and the military junta are responsible for not prosecuting those crimes. When the yellows demonstrated we heard (not very much but some) about this and the war on drugs rightly raised as evidence of Thaksin’s culpability. Surayud even set up a little pretend committee and shed a few tears and wrang his hands about it.
But what happened? For Thaksin, one lousy charge of signing off on his wife’s land purchase. And much more fuss about his tax avoidance than mass murder. The middle class is vastly more offended by threats to their finances than by a few killings of unimportant people.
What happened? To charge Thaksin, you would have to charge the army leaders who were on the spot and the police who were doing the killing in the war on drugs and those who gave orders and organized coverups.
Hai Simon, I guess your first name is Simple. Ahbisit roadmap does not really say anything except dissolution and Nov elections. That does not mean that he cannot use the compliant courts to jail and disqualify all the red shirt leaders and a whole bunch of former TRT members as well. That is call decimation of the leadership!
The same cannot be said of the “yellow shirts” The leaders instead of being charged are rewarded. WHY? b’cos, what they did was legitimate? Under what law? Blatant injustice is not a way out of a poliitical problem, one has to be sincere or at least appears to be sincere. On that score Ahbist failed.
the red-shirted people who dont not respect rules should die.they r against the soldiers who try to make bkk return as normal.they r protesting in a definitely illegal action,not accepted by most of thai people.
The polemics of the moment inform tomorrow’s interpretation of history. Is the crackdown in Bangkok a “massacre”, murder, or a neccessary price to pay for law and order? This distinction couldn’t be more important and it has implications for Thailand’s future and government conduct beyond Thailand’s borders.
If Thailand and the world community view this week’s crackdown as a “neccessary show of force” to subdue “terrorists,” Thailand and the world once again condone the dehumanization of people in moral preparation for inhumane violence.
You are suggesting that oppostion to asymetric warfare and deliberate dehumanization of political opponents is only recorded to “bolster […] professional credibility.”
To which I respond, thank you for not contributing your own socio-cultural analysis of anything. We are better for it.
Please forgive the lengthy copy & paste. I thought this a passionate and articulate comment from a red Thai, “Ploy Daeng,” to the Wall Street Journal’s editorial today “The Killing in Bangkok”:
This is sad to see that most of you dont even get the basics of what’s going on. I am what you call a “dumb youth” … I am a red Thai. US Educated and relatively ‘wealthy’. We dont care about Thaksin. But at least he was born in Thailand…unlike our current PM. He was not born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Unlike the current PM and the entourage he belongs too. Despite being rich himself and technically closer to the BKK power clans, Thaksin understood that the havenots in Thailand (which I need to highlight for those who only see the shopping malls of Silom, the Gogo bars of Soi Cowboys and the beaches of Phuket, represent 80% of the population. Once you step out of Bangkok, you survive on USD 100 a month. Good luck!) were left out from the “Thai economic growth miracle”. The havenots are tired to wait, they are now more educated, they have access to internet and they realized…”we are the majority of this country”… The reds are surely not fighting for Thaksin to come back. That’s irrelevant. We are fighting for a more equal society. Where all the power (commercial, political, army, financial, intellectual, etc.) is not in the hand of a happy few in BKK.
Second, if Thailand calls itself a democracy then simply let the people decide. It is that easy. You cant call yourself a “democrat” but only when you win the elections and create chaos by blocking the airport for 2 weeks when you dont win. The current Democrat Party has not won any elections for the past ten years but they are in power now. How would , the British, the Germans, the Americans feel if your PM was not elected and then out to give democracy lessons to all? This is ridiculous even to an illiterate farmer from Khon Kaen…
You are all very fast to stamp Thaksin as corrupted but when he was in power all the MNCs and G-7 governments were very happy to invest and to do business with him and Thailand. His policies where cited as an example (Thasksonomics) in all the global Business press. Thailand was “leading” ASEAN, FDI was pouring in. In that case we can also call all the MNCs that invest in TH corrupted if you want… Corruption charges against Thaksin were brought forward by a judiciary system completely at the mercy of the current BKK apparatchiks. In that same case, YOU would all jump bail and stay out of the system if you think you can’t have a fair trial. I sure would fight at the court if I can get a fair trial.
Last, no one approves the burning of tires, the camping on bitumen, and the stress it brings on people on all sides but we need to stop calling demonstrators thugs, mob, vigilantes, dumb etc. Like it or not the Red are the majority in the country. Is Thaksin buying all the votes ? Is Thaksin organizing a crowd of 200,000 to descend on BKK ? Is Thaksin asking people to die ? This is not credible…. The reds left inside their compounds have the majority of the country behind them. So far we cant really say that they are terrorist, armed with anything else than stones and tires. You dont get shot in the head,Mr Gornman in the US / UK for trowing a rock. Even repeatedly. If you dont want the reds in the streets fighting and dying then meet them around an election. Unlike the “Democrats” we will respect the verdict.
If you keep stigmatizing the reds as dumb paid thugs from the country side you will have the same result as with Marie Antoinette when she offered “cake” to the French crowd that was demanding “more bread” in 1789. We all know what happened to Marie Antoinette after. ..
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17 May 1992 and 17 May 2010
Jaded – 11
Yes you could be right although I was thinking more of today’s politicians and MPs, maybe even Thaksin himself.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
So many comments and examples of “what if outsiders came into your town, what you would do”. Since when red shirts are plain outsiders? Is it so hard to get in your head that there is darn plenty Bangkokians there?
I did discuss this with some friends, this effect of “us” and “them”. Think little what it reminds you of? Most violent conflicts! This sort of “division” is always necessary to create violent combat situation AND to “justify”action. This division is typical for racism also and hate speech. Think all those “goons” and “charlies” killed in WWII and Vietnam War. Or Rwanda and the tribal separation. Or when soldiers speak about those “rag heads” when they shoot them or “jews that suck blood of baby muslims” and so on and on.
All these commentators, foreign and Thai alike, are doing exactly that: using partly or fully this as justifying events with the “us” vs “them” line. Many Thais go as far as tell red shirts that “if they don’t like Thailand and the King, they can go to some other country” or by simply calling and picturing them as buffaloes, like in Manager magazine or multiple Thai websites. Or as dogs. All these are very strong Thai racist and degrading methods. Nigger anyone? This is equal to any racial slur and slander and pure racism.
I am no psychologist and have not read about combat and military psychology, but I get a feeling that this sort of division is sort of necessary “protection mechanism” that needs to be used to make people able to kill and be violent against other people.
Any opinions?
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
This video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVLHnBsTl9s is from the same scene that Nick photographed.
I see elsewhere that the “it’s a fake/set-up” brigade are moving into inventive high gear e.g. (I kid you not):
“I suspect there is one black sniper following Nick Nostitz then shooting Reds Nick took a photo of, or, interviewed.”
Bangkok: This is a massacre
Mr. Bennington– the “polemics of the moment” are precisely that-polemics, which, as I’m sure you’re aware, means “strong written or verbal attacks on someone or something.” As your polemical response being another token of the type amply illustrates, polemics are a poor guide to forming carefully reasoned and thoughtful reactions to history’s vicissitudes.
Furthermore, it’s misleading to suggest that I imply that we ought to somehow dehumanize anyone involved in this crisis, much less to callously ignore or feebly attempt to justify human suffering. My point was that intellectuals and dilettantes alike would do well to avoid settling on morally charged judgements until the dust has at least cleared, and we have more relevant facts at hand to base our opinions on.
Clearly, I was not in any way suggesting that “oppostion to asymetric warfare and deliberate dehumanization of political opponents is only recorded to “bolster […] professional credibility.”–rather, I was pointing out that claims to authoritative interpretations of current events are linked to the political economy of academia in ways that aren’t transparently simple, but rather are fraught with ethical dilemmas whose resolution requires something a bit more nuanced than righteous indignation or picking a side in someone else’s fights.
But then, judging, condemning, and impassioned polemics garner more attention than balanced efforts to reach a more complete understanding.
17 May 1992 and 17 May 2010
LesAbbey // May 17, 2010 at 5:43 pm
Wouldn’t it be interesting to do a ‘where were they then’ on some of the politicians of today?
Well if you take a look at the careers of the Privy Council you will find some of the answers to your question. The careers of senior judicial appointees can also be interesting.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
UDDP is non-violent in the same sense as PAD is. They are only non-violent as long as not getting attacked. But if getting attacked they fight back with whatever means they have.
But as in any large crowd, you will find some people more prone to violence than others. In the end, both UDDP and PAD consists of individuals, who may take actions that are not in line with the policy of the organization. Saying that reds are bad is a little bit like saying that men, blacks, Muslims or Republicans are bad.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
StanG it is a suicidal mission AND a massacre.
So do you recon the reds should have been better armed ?
Rating comments
In response to concerns about the hiding of the poorly rated comments. I have been trying to tweak the system so that such comments are differently colour coded, but not hidden. But I have not succeeded. So, in the interim I have set the threshold very high – 500 more thumbs down than thumbs up. Given the large amount of traffic I have also changed the settings for highly rated (30 more thumbs up than thumbs down) and hot topic (total of 50 or more ratings). I will keep tweaking as time goes on. I accept that some readers have very valid reservations about the system but I think a system for quick and easy reader feedback on comments is worth a try.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
I’ve recently heard that twenty five bodies are being stored in a temple and can attest to the fact that no ambulances or emergency vehicles are being allowed into the Rangnam area. The fact is that it is a massacre. Every afternoon since Friday I’ve been hearing rifle fire. I don’t think these are warning shots. I’ve seen massive areas of congealing blood on the corner of Rangnam road which would suggest otherwise. When you arm a bunch of teenagers and instill hatred there is no chance for intelligent dialogue. Those people who call for the reds to be shot should see unarmed people taking fire. Don’t sit in your arm chairs, come down to Rangnam and see the bloodshed, perhaps then you would change your mind about the justification of armed violence. I’m not saying I agree entirely with the reds but this is too much.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
I couldn’t believe that a basically peaceful Thai could take aim a sniper rifle at another Thai and easily pull the trigger. Even a battle-hardened Burmese soldier has trouble doing the same thing.
Use of the term massacre is truly justified once a group of heavily armed troops started firing at their own people, unarmed or not, deliberately and indiscriminately.
In a civilized society the riot police are there to quell the civilian unrest as the Greeks have recently shown to the world. Once the army is involved the large scale loss of lives is a guaranteed outcome, and the unrest becomes a civil war with dire consequences.
I pray for the fellow Thais that their society will not fall apart as the neighboring society of their long suffering brothers and sisters in Burma!
17 May 1992 and 17 May 2010
The King’s failed health precludes any intervention. He is frail and has likely suffered several strokes.
Anyhow, he’s been close to the military since early days. Sarit etc.
No man should be worth $35billion.
Bangkok at war
Chris – I take the point that it can escalate slowly in Thailand. At the same time, the protesters have a limited window of opportunity to build momentum before either the military restores order and/or the international media loses interest. We haven’t see this escalate into mass civil disobedience (yet) and the government is partially winning the PR war in labeling the remaining protesters as “terrorists”.
Jim – the “roadmap” comparison, especially in regards to Israel/Palestine is very apt. I did interpret the news that the government would offer new elections. However, I didn’t expect the powers that be would allow it to be entirely free and fair (after all, that would mean the ruling class handing over substantial ruling power). But that is another issue and repeated protest (or threat of civil disobedience) would have arguably been a better tactic in constraining the government’s actions in this regard.
“Loss of faith in democracy lets hardliners stick in the boot”
BP at http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/178170/thaksin-calls-for-un-intervention
“I stand with my countrymen in this terrible hour in our history. The pictures that I have seen go beyond any nightmares that could have been envisaged. I have no choice but to state resolutely the need for all sides to step back from this terrible abyss and seek to begin a new, genuine and sincere dialogue between the parties.
“The present action of the government dishonour our history and will forever weaken our institutions and democracy. How can life be revered when the government uses its live bullets against innocent non-violent protesters and civilians, many of them women and children.
“I call for the United Nations to immediately engage to act as facilitator for this negotiation. That organization should not allow itself to be silenced by a prime minister who failed to understand that a right to life is a core universal value that unites us all as one.”
Wikiquote: “UN is not my father” — in a reply to a reporter when asked to comment on the Human Rights Office of the UN going to send officers to observe the implementation of the Thai Anti-drug scheme.
Unbelievable.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Dear Supapong, my Eng is not quite well, but i will try to tell you that..
During post 2000 eco crisis, I and friends’d once been fooled so crazily by PAD (yellow shirt) after we’d been solely consuming only onto his medias where 90% of columns targeted all the blames and cheating accusation on democrat party (the party that I and friends always voted for prior to 2000).
The madness and highly intense patriot feeling (against democrat) lasted for many months until we found out that ‘sonthi ’ (later yellow shirt leader) ‘s lost interests, really lied behind many accusations (and for the next government, taksin, too). We never forget that stupid feeling and also learnt lessons of how media can easily lure people just by keep manipulating information.
Anyway, I later still voted for democrat that time (lost to Taksin party then). However, for all 4-yr full term governing of Taksin, he performed so well, especially on economy and social policy executions (My job involved economic situation analysis) that I voted for him in next election.
As my job then related to economic situation, I kept witnessing the dynamic movement within each economic small sectors in each provinces during Taksin 1st term. That’s how huge domestic consumption (i’m talking about non-gdp which bigger than gdp that less people interested) really dragged the country’s fast recovery. I also believe that some of social welfare he established (caused many argument from doctors who lost the clinic customers) was really effective that it relieved severity of the chronic ‘inequalities’ of the country (if u study poverty, research on Gini indicators, just for income side, instead of poverty line). Inequality never been relieved by any government incl. old party like democrat. So the problems had long been left wide spreading from that of income to that of education, land dwelling, standard medical access, etc, and from generations to generations. At present, it became roots or underlying problems to most economic and social problems of the country. The poor (no matter now or 4 decades ago) still born and die poorly, but with more limited opportunities (esp. education). Family quality’s lower, more frequent in insolvency with a year from debt burden, higher vulnerability of drug abuses and other social problems. While those of rich generations, born with opportunities and facilities, always see and judge whole country as merely Bangkok! Teenages today mostly lack of social responsibility and doesn’t feel they related to any although we are in the same economic hook. Latest ADB analysis says that the problems is not the rich and the poor anymore, but that “the rich are getting rich FASTER than the poor!!.. Check Thailand’s inequality stat., although rare. (I still have more things to tell the space’s never enough).
I don’t need absolute zero inequalities, that’s impossible. I once really glad that the problems’s lessen in Taksin term. Old Guru and scholars who came out and severely criticized Taksin policy including democrat party are all sucked and should be get rid of. They’d been wasting the time to hold the information for so long in the past, but do nothing even lessening, if they think they smart enough.
Today, strange justices and skeptical legal enforcement after 2006 coup, including bad medias drove me far away wandering the internet for more true information. Now I became the one who never watch Thai TV and readThai/Eng (Thai-owned) newspaper for more than 3 years. Thank you for reading.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
I’m not convinced the comments rating system is working. People are voting according to whether or not they agree with the comment, rather than its quality. Many of the anti-redshirt comments are heavily voted down and therefore ‘sentenced’ to be hidden from view – a bizarre form of self-censorship that I doubt is in accord with the original intentions of NM. I come across many comments that I rate highly, even though I may not personally agree with the view expressed. I’d like to be free to make up my own mind about a comment’s quality without having to double click through to the hidden, or ‘censored’, text.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
Barnsybkk is right. There is a tolerance of massacres. The Tak Bai massacre was widely seen on the web and CD and shown on TV for a short time if I remember correctly.
I went to the demonstration against the massacre expecting thousands to be there. There were about 2-3 hundred of us. Hugely outnumberred by the police.
But the current rulers and the military junta are responsible for not prosecuting those crimes. When the yellows demonstrated we heard (not very much but some) about this and the war on drugs rightly raised as evidence of Thaksin’s culpability. Surayud even set up a little pretend committee and shed a few tears and wrang his hands about it.
But what happened? For Thaksin, one lousy charge of signing off on his wife’s land purchase. And much more fuss about his tax avoidance than mass murder. The middle class is vastly more offended by threats to their finances than by a few killings of unimportant people.
What happened? To charge Thaksin, you would have to charge the army leaders who were on the spot and the police who were doing the killing in the war on drugs and those who gave orders and organized coverups.
And that just doesn’t happen here.
Abhisit’s iron fist – Sunday
Hai Simon, I guess your first name is Simple. Ahbisit roadmap does not really say anything except dissolution and Nov elections. That does not mean that he cannot use the compliant courts to jail and disqualify all the red shirt leaders and a whole bunch of former TRT members as well. That is call decimation of the leadership!
The same cannot be said of the “yellow shirts” The leaders instead of being charged are rewarded. WHY? b’cos, what they did was legitimate? Under what law? Blatant injustice is not a way out of a poliitical problem, one has to be sincere or at least appears to be sincere. On that score Ahbist failed.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
the red-shirted people who dont not respect rules should die.they r against the soldiers who try to make bkk return as normal.they r protesting in a definitely illegal action,not accepted by most of thai people.
Bangkok: This is a massacre
In response to KMs comment…
The polemics of the moment inform tomorrow’s interpretation of history. Is the crackdown in Bangkok a “massacre”, murder, or a neccessary price to pay for law and order? This distinction couldn’t be more important and it has implications for Thailand’s future and government conduct beyond Thailand’s borders.
If Thailand and the world community view this week’s crackdown as a “neccessary show of force” to subdue “terrorists,” Thailand and the world once again condone the dehumanization of people in moral preparation for inhumane violence.
You are suggesting that oppostion to asymetric warfare and deliberate dehumanization of political opponents is only recorded to “bolster […] professional credibility.”
To which I respond, thank you for not contributing your own socio-cultural analysis of anything. We are better for it.
17 May 1992 and 17 May 2010
Please forgive the lengthy copy & paste. I thought this a passionate and articulate comment from a red Thai, “Ploy Daeng,” to the Wall Street Journal’s editorial today “The Killing in Bangkok”:
This is sad to see that most of you dont even get the basics of what’s going on. I am what you call a “dumb youth” … I am a red Thai. US Educated and relatively ‘wealthy’. We dont care about Thaksin. But at least he was born in Thailand…unlike our current PM. He was not born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Unlike the current PM and the entourage he belongs too. Despite being rich himself and technically closer to the BKK power clans, Thaksin understood that the havenots in Thailand (which I need to highlight for those who only see the shopping malls of Silom, the Gogo bars of Soi Cowboys and the beaches of Phuket, represent 80% of the population. Once you step out of Bangkok, you survive on USD 100 a month. Good luck!) were left out from the “Thai economic growth miracle”. The havenots are tired to wait, they are now more educated, they have access to internet and they realized…”we are the majority of this country”… The reds are surely not fighting for Thaksin to come back. That’s irrelevant. We are fighting for a more equal society. Where all the power (commercial, political, army, financial, intellectual, etc.) is not in the hand of a happy few in BKK.
Second, if Thailand calls itself a democracy then simply let the people decide. It is that easy. You cant call yourself a “democrat” but only when you win the elections and create chaos by blocking the airport for 2 weeks when you dont win. The current Democrat Party has not won any elections for the past ten years but they are in power now. How would , the British, the Germans, the Americans feel if your PM was not elected and then out to give democracy lessons to all? This is ridiculous even to an illiterate farmer from Khon Kaen…
You are all very fast to stamp Thaksin as corrupted but when he was in power all the MNCs and G-7 governments were very happy to invest and to do business with him and Thailand. His policies where cited as an example (Thasksonomics) in all the global Business press. Thailand was “leading” ASEAN, FDI was pouring in. In that case we can also call all the MNCs that invest in TH corrupted if you want… Corruption charges against Thaksin were brought forward by a judiciary system completely at the mercy of the current BKK apparatchiks. In that same case, YOU would all jump bail and stay out of the system if you think you can’t have a fair trial. I sure would fight at the court if I can get a fair trial.
Last, no one approves the burning of tires, the camping on bitumen, and the stress it brings on people on all sides but we need to stop calling demonstrators thugs, mob, vigilantes, dumb etc. Like it or not the Red are the majority in the country. Is Thaksin buying all the votes ? Is Thaksin organizing a crowd of 200,000 to descend on BKK ? Is Thaksin asking people to die ? This is not credible…. The reds left inside their compounds have the majority of the country behind them. So far we cant really say that they are terrorist, armed with anything else than stones and tires. You dont get shot in the head,Mr Gornman in the US / UK for trowing a rock. Even repeatedly. If you dont want the reds in the streets fighting and dying then meet them around an election. Unlike the “Democrats” we will respect the verdict.
If you keep stigmatizing the reds as dumb paid thugs from the country side you will have the same result as with Marie Antoinette when she offered “cake” to the French crowd that was demanding “more bread” in 1789. We all know what happened to Marie Antoinette after. ..