Everbody concerned about the situation in Thailand should organize protests at their nearest Thai consulate or embassy. This will make it into the local news cycles and increase foreign pressure on the Thais to call off the Ratchaprasong massacre.
The rating system isn’t working, as part of it is missing.
You have ‘thumbs up’ and ‘thumbs down’, but you’ve neglected to mention that you also have ‘delete posts that site admins don’t like’.
If you want group think and everyone on here in lock step conformity why don’t you just say so right up front.
No free speech for people who don’t agree with the herd mindset?
when ruled under a democratic system, its the process not the individuals that are important
Yes correct, but the democratic process has given us the Samak, Somchai and Abhisit governments. To remove them by force is as wrong as the 2006 military coup. You shouldn’t pretend otherwise. Should Labour supporters in the UK be out on streets because the Liberals have gone into coalition with the Tories?
This below quote is a post from the TV forum. Anyone watching live from http://www.uddthailand.com can know that many women and children are there and also they want to stay, they are not forced to stay. They are fighting against an abusive and corrupt elite sponsored government which is killing civilians and terrorizing journalists while it struggles desperately to remain in power.
The government and their teams of propaganda are trying to say that people are forced to stay there, these are lies.
QUOTE
Yesterday afternoon and evening my wife and me spent quite some time in our neighborhood (Rajprasong) and we talked to at least a hundred different people down there. We don’t see even the slightest hint that anyone might be forced to stay here. We heard the leaders calling several times onto the protesters first that women and children can go to the temple compounds nearby and anyone willing to leave can do so. However we met not even one person ready to leave. All we met were determined to go through it whatever happens. It is certainly not only the comradeship that keeps them here it is the absolute 100% firm conviction that they are fighting for the right cause.
Look at the pictures I took yesterday late afternoon:
its short term thinking in this crisis to even think of Thaksin
he is a symbol for many of the reds, but even they recognise that its not him but the democratic elections that are important
even if Thaksin returns and is elected for another term, as we know from every other democratic country, he would be lucky if he could keep winning further elections
the democratic process ensures that every leader has to keep performing otherwise he will be voted out. in fact, often even if he keeps performing, people just want to change.
when ruled by dictators its the personalities that are important
when ruled under a democratic system, its the process not the individuals that are important
Your point is well-taken, but I would suggest that the faith that started “under Thaksin” was a faith in Thaksin and his pro-poor policies and unprecedented direct appeal to rural voters.
It was the military coup and subsequent undemocratic finagling to install yet another version of “Thai democracy” that stimulated the realization of what had been lost and the very real power of the ballot box.
I am aware that that faith in Thaksin is still very much alive and often conflated with a faith in democracy amongst Reds; I am also of the opinion that this may not be a good thing.
There were many things I appreciated about Thaksin and the TRT, but a commitment to democratic procedure beyond the electoral process itself was not, and is not, one of them.
This man tried to do something with the oil truck. Look at his right hand. What did he want to do with the truck? Our soldier saw him and shot the gun on his foot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBGpxfQ3ZSE
[…] accounts have been uploaded on the web. For example, Nick Nostitz was inside the “killing zone”. Vaitor and Riding out the Economy also posted their […]
Emjay; one caveat: thais in fact started to have faith in the electoral process under Thaksin who had empowered the peasants and working classes for the first time in Thai history; his decentralisation, economic stimulus, fiscal accountability at all levels & etc. changed the tempo and gave the grassroots a sense that their voice did in fact count. The electoral system has not been perfect and locally based patron-client relations dominate as in the past, but remember democracy is a process; it does not happen overnight, and all the rhetoric of previous govts could not match the direct action of Thaksin. After four+ years of persistent propaganda ask the ordinary folk if they still prefer Thaksin’s system of govt. This unsettled the establishment who were under threat of losing their privileges and benefits…the result- as we know-is the sad fact of recent history and back to post-war years when bureaucratic and military elites know what’s best/
When one looks at the vitriol inspired by New Mandala stories, the thought arises that the mere airing of internal problems to the outside world is enough to incense some good Thai citizens.
I wonder: Seh Daeng was assassinated while giving interviews to foreign reporters and the Red Shirt supporters who spoke to Nick Nostitz were shot moments later–is this a clear message not to dare to speak to foreigners?
To those readers who rage against New Mandala: is this really just xenophobia?
“Pace” those like Les Abbey and Hamish McDonald who insist that Thais have lost faith in the electoral process, but what have military coups, judicial coups and military-organized parliamentary coalitions to do with the electoral process?
In one sense, many Thais have never had faith in the electoral process: some, because anything approaching a “real” democracy in Thailand would mean losing their stranglehold on power; others because a steady stream of abuse hurled from on high at parliamentary corruption and the “unThai” nature of the foreign institution of democracy has convinced them that the electoral process simply cannot work here; and just about everyone, justifiably, because the self-fulfilling prophecies contained in the above attitudes have meant that Thai politicians have for the most part been a corrupt and venal lot.
So how can a faith that’s never been held be lost?
What we are witnessing in the UDD’s sustained protest and their incredible courage in facing down government violence and outright murder is what happens when faith in the electoral process actually begins to take hold in a relatively large segment of the Thai electorate.
Just look at what the Reds are calling for, and it isn’t for a government to be installed by mob rule: they want the illegitimate Abhisit regime to stop the slaughter and stand down; they want elections to be called; and they want foreign supervision of those elections to ensure that the results are valid and respected.
Why?
The answer is simple: because, possibly for the first time in history, a significant proportion of Thai people, drawn from across a wide spectrum of society, are evincing faith in the electoral process.
The faith that has been lost is the one which has encouraged Thais from the “lower orders” to respect and defer to their “betters”, the faith that tells them that some are born to rule and others to take what they are given as “sufficient” to their needs.
This particular loss of faith should be celebrated wherever democratic values are shared and treasured; there is no loss to be lamented here.
Clearly, the real heads of terrorists are those two: Abhisit and Suthep. They should not merely keep scrutinising only others. Look at yorselves carefully, Abhisit and Suthep. Your time is running out.
As I write, the army spokemans is on TV refuting various video evidence that a variety of weapons were used to shoot people indescrimately, or refuting the types of weapons claimed to be used. Speaking in Thai with English subtitles.
1. Five people apparently dead after a grenade explodes- laying on the ground – next clip, same incident, only one person, remaining on the ground and dead – the rest have gone. The colonel says, the others had ‘hit the deck’ and were not injured. They then got up and ran away. The four do appear to be in the ‘hit the deck position – face down covering their heads’ while the dead person is not.
2. M79 grenade launcher – in fact, a tear gas launcher identified by its front stock.
3. Claimed Tarver in fact a M16 as identified by its front sight – sniper being directed to shoot a man carrying a bomb – sound to this ‘confirms’ the spotter directing the sniper to shoot this guy, ‘He’s carrying a bomb…he’s down..’
A few more, but I cannot type, read and listen so well at the same time!
Nick-well done for what is perhaps the most balanced post I’ve yet seen. One thing that the Government is doing- as I type- is going through some of the more hysterical media portrayals and showing where ‘Photoshop’ has been used and in particular the use of snipers or ‘sharp shooters’ and showing graphic but unedited footage of what they have been doing. One clip shows them shooting a rioter in the lower leg as he was attempting to burn a truck by putting a burning cloth in the petrol tank. They have also just demonstrated to the local press that the soldiers are not using M79’s as the press are showing; but specialist teargas launchers that look like M79’s – it was quite interesting the reaction from the press when they showed that the gas gun cant even chamber a M79 grenade! While this is one side spinning against the other, its clear that they are showing great restraint given what we have seen historically. The other side is not; just look at the grenade attack at Silom last night. There are plenty of footage showing armed red or black shirts-yet that does not make it to into the international press. Perhaps one day they will play the footage of Natawut or Arisman and what they are calling for.
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Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Everbody concerned about the situation in Thailand should organize protests at their nearest Thai consulate or embassy. This will make it into the local news cycles and increase foreign pressure on the Thais to call off the Ratchaprasong massacre.
Rating comments
The rating system isn’t working, as part of it is missing.
You have ‘thumbs up’ and ‘thumbs down’, but you’ve neglected to mention that you also have ‘delete posts that site admins don’t like’.
If you want group think and everyone on here in lock step conformity why don’t you just say so right up front.
No free speech for people who don’t agree with the herd mindset?
Abhisit’s iron fist – Sunday
Crazy falang girl defies the iron fist of Abhisit and poses with protestors in conflict zone: http://catastrophist.wordpress.com/2010/05/17/bangkok-war-tourism-who-is-crazy-smiling-girl/ (from 8:12 in the video)
Leithead(?) is weak!
“Loss of faith in democracy lets hardliners stick in the boot”
when ruled under a democratic system, its the process not the individuals that are important
Yes correct, but the democratic process has given us the Samak, Somchai and Abhisit governments. To remove them by force is as wrong as the 2006 military coup. You shouldn’t pretend otherwise. Should Labour supporters in the UK be out on streets because the Liberals have gone into coalition with the Tories?
Abhisit’s iron fist – Sunday
This below quote is a post from the TV forum. Anyone watching live from http://www.uddthailand.com can know that many women and children are there and also they want to stay, they are not forced to stay. They are fighting against an abusive and corrupt elite sponsored government which is killing civilians and terrorizing journalists while it struggles desperately to remain in power.
The government and their teams of propaganda are trying to say that people are forced to stay there, these are lies.
QUOTE
Yesterday afternoon and evening my wife and me spent quite some time in our neighborhood (Rajprasong) and we talked to at least a hundred different people down there. We don’t see even the slightest hint that anyone might be forced to stay here. We heard the leaders calling several times onto the protesters first that women and children can go to the temple compounds nearby and anyone willing to leave can do so. However we met not even one person ready to leave. All we met were determined to go through it whatever happens. It is certainly not only the comradeship that keeps them here it is the absolute 100% firm conviction that they are fighting for the right cause.
Look at the pictures I took yesterday late afternoon:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ratchaprasong/
Do these people look like they are forced to stay against their own will? I don’t think so.
UNQUOTE
“Loss of faith in democracy lets hardliners stick in the boot”
its short term thinking in this crisis to even think of Thaksin
he is a symbol for many of the reds, but even they recognise that its not him but the democratic elections that are important
even if Thaksin returns and is elected for another term, as we know from every other democratic country, he would be lucky if he could keep winning further elections
the democratic process ensures that every leader has to keep performing otherwise he will be voted out. in fact, often even if he keeps performing, people just want to change.
when ruled by dictators its the personalities that are important
when ruled under a democratic system, its the process not the individuals that are important
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Correspondent their are presentation one side and distort the facts.
You all reporters without ethics.
“Loss of faith in democracy lets hardliners stick in the boot”
Jim Taylor:
Your point is well-taken, but I would suggest that the faith that started “under Thaksin” was a faith in Thaksin and his pro-poor policies and unprecedented direct appeal to rural voters.
It was the military coup and subsequent undemocratic finagling to install yet another version of “Thai democracy” that stimulated the realization of what had been lost and the very real power of the ballot box.
I am aware that that faith in Thaksin is still very much alive and often conflated with a faith in democracy amongst Reds; I am also of the opinion that this may not be a good thing.
There were many things I appreciated about Thaksin and the TRT, but a commitment to democratic procedure beyond the electoral process itself was not, and is not, one of them.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
I would like to ask for your sincere answer.
Are they protesters or real terrorists?
The situation before our PM decided to force the red terrorist to go back home.
Watch these video clips:
————
Where are these soldiers’ rights?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suTm1cDhW0k&feature=player_embedded
————
Who’s the man in black with M16 machine gun?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_xg0l6-oHY&feature=player_embedded
————
Do you know what M79 is?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hmSPbugDAA&feature=player_embedded
————
Do you think that they come to request for the democracy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbQx3DyOel4&feature=related
This is the fact that Bangkok people have to bear for more than one year with this terrorist. Do we have too low tolerant?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB85Mw-O4x8&feature=related
See what they did with our soldiers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W_gODoaXg4&feature=fvsr
See what Bangkok people think about the red terrorist.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLiHS-FrdAs&feature=related
Who did the violation?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtiLcXbPXR0&feature=related
Who shot this guy? The soldiers were in front of the red group, but he was shot by someone within the red group.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzcVcHokaVM&NR=1
This red guy saw the event above, and he said that he saw the man in black shot that guy, it’s not the soldier. He said that he also saw the man in black shot the soldier as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6p1YP3wUzI&feature=related
This man tried to do something with the oil truck. Look at his right hand. What did he want to do with the truck? Our soldier saw him and shot the gun on his foot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBGpxfQ3ZSE
What do you think?
Sincerely your,
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
[…] accounts have been uploaded on the web. For example, Nick Nostitz was inside the “killing zone”. Vaitor and Riding out the Economy also posted their […]
“Loss of faith in democracy lets hardliners stick in the boot”
Emjay; one caveat: thais in fact started to have faith in the electoral process under Thaksin who had empowered the peasants and working classes for the first time in Thai history; his decentralisation, economic stimulus, fiscal accountability at all levels & etc. changed the tempo and gave the grassroots a sense that their voice did in fact count. The electoral system has not been perfect and locally based patron-client relations dominate as in the past, but remember democracy is a process; it does not happen overnight, and all the rhetoric of previous govts could not match the direct action of Thaksin. After four+ years of persistent propaganda ask the ordinary folk if they still prefer Thaksin’s system of govt. This unsettled the establishment who were under threat of losing their privileges and benefits…the result- as we know-is the sad fact of recent history and back to post-war years when bureaucratic and military elites know what’s best/
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Hey Nick
has been a few years…..while its good to hear you are doing well and are safe, I wish I were hearing your news under better circumstances.
Do take care
Jyoti
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
When one looks at the vitriol inspired by New Mandala stories, the thought arises that the mere airing of internal problems to the outside world is enough to incense some good Thai citizens.
I wonder: Seh Daeng was assassinated while giving interviews to foreign reporters and the Red Shirt supporters who spoke to Nick Nostitz were shot moments later–is this a clear message not to dare to speak to foreigners?
To those readers who rage against New Mandala: is this really just xenophobia?
A Sunday morning look at Bangkok
angusk #18
“There are plenty of footage showing armed red or black shirts-yet that does not make it to into the international press. ”
Where can this footage be found?
Thanks.
“Loss of faith in democracy lets hardliners stick in the boot”
“Pace” those like Les Abbey and Hamish McDonald who insist that Thais have lost faith in the electoral process, but what have military coups, judicial coups and military-organized parliamentary coalitions to do with the electoral process?
In one sense, many Thais have never had faith in the electoral process: some, because anything approaching a “real” democracy in Thailand would mean losing their stranglehold on power; others because a steady stream of abuse hurled from on high at parliamentary corruption and the “unThai” nature of the foreign institution of democracy has convinced them that the electoral process simply cannot work here; and just about everyone, justifiably, because the self-fulfilling prophecies contained in the above attitudes have meant that Thai politicians have for the most part been a corrupt and venal lot.
So how can a faith that’s never been held be lost?
What we are witnessing in the UDD’s sustained protest and their incredible courage in facing down government violence and outright murder is what happens when faith in the electoral process actually begins to take hold in a relatively large segment of the Thai electorate.
Just look at what the Reds are calling for, and it isn’t for a government to be installed by mob rule: they want the illegitimate Abhisit regime to stop the slaughter and stand down; they want elections to be called; and they want foreign supervision of those elections to ensure that the results are valid and respected.
Why?
The answer is simple: because, possibly for the first time in history, a significant proportion of Thai people, drawn from across a wide spectrum of society, are evincing faith in the electoral process.
The faith that has been lost is the one which has encouraged Thais from the “lower orders” to respect and defer to their “betters”, the faith that tells them that some are born to rule and others to take what they are given as “sufficient” to their needs.
This particular loss of faith should be celebrated wherever democratic values are shared and treasured; there is no loss to be lamented here.
Reds’ fatal flaw: Thailand’s fatal flaw
Andrew Walker 14 from Tony 11: ”Give us the details of the voter fraud, Tony.”
Other here have already mentioned common knowledge that voter fraud, vote rigging and the buying off of MPs, small parties is common place.
It seems that anecdote is the plural of fact, after all.
Andrew, can you show us any evidence that it does not go on.
Abhisit’s iron fist – Sunday
Clearly, the real heads of terrorists are those two: Abhisit and Suthep. They should not merely keep scrutinising only others. Look at yorselves carefully, Abhisit and Suthep. Your time is running out.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Good comments from Supapong earlier.
ColPyat is a known red supporter and his biased so-called journalism is tripe.
Abhisit’s iron fist – Sunday
As I write, the army spokemans is on TV refuting various video evidence that a variety of weapons were used to shoot people indescrimately, or refuting the types of weapons claimed to be used. Speaking in Thai with English subtitles.
1. Five people apparently dead after a grenade explodes- laying on the ground – next clip, same incident, only one person, remaining on the ground and dead – the rest have gone. The colonel says, the others had ‘hit the deck’ and were not injured. They then got up and ran away. The four do appear to be in the ‘hit the deck position – face down covering their heads’ while the dead person is not.
2. M79 grenade launcher – in fact, a tear gas launcher identified by its front stock.
3. Claimed Tarver in fact a M16 as identified by its front sight – sniper being directed to shoot a man carrying a bomb – sound to this ‘confirms’ the spotter directing the sniper to shoot this guy, ‘He’s carrying a bomb…he’s down..’
A few more, but I cannot type, read and listen so well at the same time!
A Sunday morning look at Bangkok
Nick-well done for what is perhaps the most balanced post I’ve yet seen. One thing that the Government is doing- as I type- is going through some of the more hysterical media portrayals and showing where ‘Photoshop’ has been used and in particular the use of snipers or ‘sharp shooters’ and showing graphic but unedited footage of what they have been doing. One clip shows them shooting a rioter in the lower leg as he was attempting to burn a truck by putting a burning cloth in the petrol tank. They have also just demonstrated to the local press that the soldiers are not using M79’s as the press are showing; but specialist teargas launchers that look like M79’s – it was quite interesting the reaction from the press when they showed that the gas gun cant even chamber a M79 grenade! While this is one side spinning against the other, its clear that they are showing great restraint given what we have seen historically. The other side is not; just look at the grenade attack at Silom last night. There are plenty of footage showing armed red or black shirts-yet that does not make it to into the international press. Perhaps one day they will play the footage of Natawut or Arisman and what they are calling for.