I’m a little disappointed at the way people on this site are using the comment ratings system. Comments should be rated highly if they are thoughtful, insightful, well written and informative, regardless of the writer’s political stance. Worthy comments are being given the thumbs down for sympathising with the government or being critical of the reds, while idiotic pro-red comments are getting the thumbs up. Can we try to be a bit more objective? I thought the aim of this site was to host intelligent debate, not propagandise in favour of a particular cause.
It is quite obvious that certain subjects are taboo, even on this web-site.
Most of all taboo is the looming issue of whether Isaarn and Lanna SECEDE from Thailand.
Ditto also PATTANI.
There’s no discussion here of Pattani’s right to SECEDE from Thailand. Not a word. For that NM should hang its’ head in shame.
and the Thais just joined the UN Human rights council. This is quite ironic.! Kasit is now going to tajikstan to thank the Islamic Council for voting for them.
The sad part about is that the US and other governments in the world will not condemn or do anything to the Democrats and the Thai Military. This is the worst form of human rights abuse we have seen. Snipers killing civilians and journalists. There is no excuse or way to justify this horror…
I don’t understand how the government can say that the snipers are some sort of third force. The government controls the area around the protest, and it is clear that the shots are coming from snipers in high places. If you were the army and someone was shooting people from areas you control and blaming it on you, wouldn’t you occupy those high places, and flush out those snipers?
It is clear they are army snipers, and that they are shooting unarmed protesters. The technical phrase for this is “extra-judicial killing”, while the vernacular would be “cold-blooded murder”.
“Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva is vowing to press on with efforts to secure the capital as the army warns of a possible crackdown on protesters, after a day of urban warfare which pushed the death toll to 24 after two days of fighting.
Mr Abhisit last night declared there would be no turning back even as the government struggled to restore order and normalcy to violence-torn Bangkok.
My comments: Abhisit is out of his mind and no longer cares about civilian casualties. He still refuses to believe that many people inside and outside Bkk do not like him and want him to quit. This is the time when the int’l community must know his barbaric stand. He indeed wants to remain in power no matter how many more civilians will die. The past two days only civilians died (24), no soldiers died at all. Small details here (from sms services and taxidriver friend)
– Lumbini police station’s housing apt for police’s families was attacked with M-79 grenade. Four women injured. This must be the military’s retaliation after Lumbini police shot at the soldiers earlier.
– a resident standing on the 27th floor balcony of his apt in Raj-prarop Rd was shot dead for nothing.
– a retired police officer (will not mention his name now) is ready to replace Sae Daeng and play his role.
It is very clear now – to ordinary so-called “Thais” – that the Bangkok elite will never treat them as equal citizens, more likely as cattle to be killed whenever they get out of line.
It is now time for Isaarn to SECEDE from the fascist construct
“Thailand”. To form a separate state in alliance with Lanna.
Isaarn also has its’ own language and culture, which Bangkok “Thai” show no signs of ever accepting on equal terms, with equal respect.
Isaarn is a separate NATION, no longer part of “Thailand”.
Why is the loss of faith in the democratic process laid only on the shoulders of the current government? I’ve spent quite a bit of time in Buriram and have several close friends there (farmers), and I’ve heard firsthand (long before the Reds ever came to be) the accounts of the lead-up to Thaksin’s democratic elections: cash in hand and gifts in kind for a vote in his favor. My friends, of course, all accepted gladly. Why wouldn’t they?
But they’re also not in BKK with the Red Shirts now, they don’t wish for the the return of Thaksin (in the view of one: “He’s a rich man, what does he have in common with me? And why can’t he just be happy with his money and leave Thailand alone?”), nor are they supportive of the movement. They’re aghast at the violence taking place in BKK — and about half divided, some angry with the Red Shirts for pushing it this far and others with the govt for not dispersing the Red Shirts early on.
Even if I were imagining or conjuring the election bribe scenario I described above, I would hope all here would agree that Thaksin was intent on dismantling Thailand’s democratic institutions while he was in power. He used state money to, for all intents and purposes, insure popular support from people who wouldn’t give a fig if he was laying libel suits on every Thai journalist from here to kingdom come and enriching his family’s coffers with land, telecom, and every other kind of deal. He was a non-democrat elected in a tainted democratic election.
If an election were held tomorrow the Red Shirts would surely be happy with the results. But wouldn’t Thailand be right back in Thaksin-land, and is that the best thing for the country?
None of this justifies the carnage taking place in Bangkok now, of course. (But will anyone argue that the Reds — or at least a contingent of Reds — have been aiming for this all along? After all, a movement without martyrs can only be so effective.)
But no one has really answered this question: The Reds say they are fighting for democracy. But if a democratic vote returns to power the party of a corrupt and bent-on-dictatorship leader, what’s the point? You can’t just write off the anti-Thaksin folks as irrelevant because they are middle class and urban. Doesn’t the desire for a clean govt count for anything? If the majority has been bought, then is it atrue, legitimate majority?
“The red shirts have shown that they can move very effectively from grass roots mobilisation to the national political stage.”
Are you kidding me? The red shirt is a grass roots movement that got national attention, that’s it so far. Moving to the political stage will require a lot more.
The red shirt leader’s fatal flaw was they did not know how to turn a mass movement into a political movement. They proved that they are nothing but a bunch of rural uneducated thugs-I believe ‘nakleng’ is apt–who know how to incite passions and violence but know nothing about political maneuvering. Thailand’s fatal flaw so far has been the inability of its political system to channel the real grievances of its rural poor and bring about institutional change peaceably to accommodate those grievances. The will of the people in a democracy is expressed through its political processes, not extralegal proceedings, coups, or mass violence as is the case in Thailand today.
RED SHIRTS LEARN REVOLUTION BY COMMITTEE DOES NOT WORK
The Red Shirt leadership have been divided between those who take their cues from Thaksin–you have to ask, who’s paying for what is presumably a very expensive protest?–and those who act independently of the ‘invisible hand.” A majority of the leadership seemed to have thought Abhisit’s roadmap was acceptable. Look at their public statements; they were about to accept it. The leaders who wouldn’t accept Abhisit’s roadmap knew that it meant they would be imprisoned or politically neutered. These leaders couldn’t get the concessions they wanted from the backdoor negotiations to save their own neck. They felt cornered with no other options but to incite violence. It’s interesting that in the last couple of days, the younger leaders seemed to have taken over the Red movement. Witness who’s talking for the reds during this violent period. And witness the older and more independent leaders leaving the Red protest. They know they no longer control the movement. The young guns have taken over and they’re willing to sacrifice their followers to the violence because they are now cornered with nowhere to go. They will be judged for their reckless actions, not only by the government but by the Reds themselves.
THE ROAD MAP: OPPORTUNITY MISSED
Had the Red Shirt leadership had any sense they would have looked at the road map as a beginning of a political process, not the end product. Those who say the road map was a dead end, including some in the red leadership and many on this board, don’t understand political maneuvering. The road map showed Abhisit was willing to concede. It called for new elections only a couple of months beyond what the red shirts were agreeable to. It was judged by most Thais to be very reasonable, if not downright generous. The reds could have taken the vague outlines created by the road map and created their own political strategy to win overwhelming majorities and usurp the system from within. Their road to real institutional/constitutional changes would be significantly less difficult if they were controlling many of the levers of government from within. That would be a real position of strength. As it is, they’ve lost the sympathies of those Thais sitting on the fence and may be seen as nothing more than a bunch of street thugs.
I PROTESTED FOR TWO MONTHS AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS LOUSY T-SHIRT?
The red leaders promised their followers the sky and when the only thing they could deliver was a road map, it became difficult for the leaders to legitimately say, “We won! You could go home now.” Remember, the original demand was for dissolution of parliament and resignation of Abhisit immediately. Does anybody else think that’s realistic besides the poor protesters and their farang sympathizers on this blog? Politics is a game of give and take–the red leaders should have explained that to their followers.
WHAT NOW?
The Red movement is far from dead. They realize they can make a real difference in Thai politics and their voice will be heard. It’s now a matter of regrouping and learning how to move from the streets to the halls of government. How will this movement of the people become a viable political movement? That will require real leadership that understands how to get what they want through political maneuvering and peaceful means as well as street action. That also means grass roots mobilization and discipline in the rank and file. Thailand will remain very volatile if the Red movement doesn’t get what it wants through politics and not mob action. Equality and justice for the rest of the country outside Bangkok isn’t much to ask, is it? Let’s hope the Red will choose leaders who understand this.
Let me inform the world that there are much more corpses, much more dead bodies than what the government informed us. Thousand of bags for dead bodies were given to the army to pick up any corpses after they were killed, followed by army trucks. That was the reason why they shot any target to scar away those reporters from taking any picture.
Where is M79? Where is machine gun? Where is terrorist? Where is war weapon? We can only see stick, slingshots,stone. The Thai government is full of bastards, big liars, hooligans,terrorists and big bully. The kill innocent people with snipers, who hide themselves on the building and shoot at every passer by. It is time for all citizens to wake up and overturn them. We cannot let this government and those people behind them to stay any longer. The longer we let them stay, the more they will kill innocent people. Normal citizens are no longer important to them any more. The only group that are important to them are soldiers, Democrats Party, yellow-shirt. Those tyrants behind this government will have to be hung.
Glad you are OK. Saw you in a video a while back so knew you were safe then.
I do have one question and you may want to defer it here, but you can always email me the answer. There is a lot of talk by CRES and the PM about the Reds being armed, I’m not talking sticks, stones, bottle rockets, homemade stuff or slingshots but actual war weapons. “Have you seen or had a shot of Reds actually shooting at the Army with war weapons?”
So far there seems to be no pictures in existence, at least not from what I have seen or the people I’ve talked to that are also covering the situation. Even the Post and Nation only have pictures of the Military firing, my thinking is that if there was any they would have them front and center.
[…] Nick Nostich was with a group of slingshot-armed Reds manning a barricade: It made a sickening sound when bullets hit the protester who had just joked around with us – in the arm and in the stomach. A few protesters on our side tried to throw a rope over to pull the injured protester to us, but it did not work. The shooting never stopped. Another protester, who tried to crawl away, was hit in the leg and the shoulder. One guy managed to run over to us. I began losing any sense of time… […]
The clip shows folk lying on the ground trying to fake death to avoid being shot: the person killed in this clip is named р╕Щр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕Мр╕н aged 17…
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Bangkok at war
I’m a little disappointed at the way people on this site are using the comment ratings system. Comments should be rated highly if they are thoughtful, insightful, well written and informative, regardless of the writer’s political stance. Worthy comments are being given the thumbs down for sympathising with the government or being critical of the reds, while idiotic pro-red comments are getting the thumbs up. Can we try to be a bit more objective? I thought the aim of this site was to host intelligent debate, not propagandise in favour of a particular cause.
Reds’ fatal flaw: Thailand’s fatal flaw
It is quite obvious that certain subjects are taboo, even on this web-site.
Most of all taboo is the looming issue of whether Isaarn and Lanna SECEDE from Thailand.
Ditto also PATTANI.
There’s no discussion here of Pattani’s right to SECEDE from Thailand. Not a word. For that NM should hang its’ head in shame.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
and the Thais just joined the UN Human rights council. This is quite ironic.! Kasit is now going to tajikstan to thank the Islamic Council for voting for them.
The sad part about is that the US and other governments in the world will not condemn or do anything to the Democrats and the Thai Military. This is the worst form of human rights abuse we have seen. Snipers killing civilians and journalists. There is no excuse or way to justify this horror…
Reds’ fatal flaw: Thailand’s fatal flaw
Thanks Absolutely Anonymous. “If the majority has been bought, then is it atrue, legitimate majority?” A perfect illustration of what we are arguing.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Nick–I haven’t seen you in years. I am so glad you are OK. Keep going with your fantastic work!
Josh
A different world in Montreal
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
I don’t understand how the government can say that the snipers are some sort of third force. The government controls the area around the protest, and it is clear that the shots are coming from snipers in high places. If you were the army and someone was shooting people from areas you control and blaming it on you, wouldn’t you occupy those high places, and flush out those snipers?
It is clear they are army snipers, and that they are shooting unarmed protesters. The technical phrase for this is “extra-judicial killing”, while the vernacular would be “cold-blooded murder”.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Everybody should read this.
Bangkok at war
08:00 am Bkk time, BKK Post says:
PM vows no turning back, justifies losses
“Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva is vowing to press on with efforts to secure the capital as the army warns of a possible crackdown on protesters, after a day of urban warfare which pushed the death toll to 24 after two days of fighting.
Mr Abhisit last night declared there would be no turning back even as the government struggled to restore order and normalcy to violence-torn Bangkok.
The government must move forward. We cannot retreat because we are doing things that will benefit the entire country. – Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiv……”
From http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/37383/pm-vows-no-turning-back-justifies-losses
My comments: Abhisit is out of his mind and no longer cares about civilian casualties. He still refuses to believe that many people inside and outside Bkk do not like him and want him to quit. This is the time when the int’l community must know his barbaric stand. He indeed wants to remain in power no matter how many more civilians will die. The past two days only civilians died (24), no soldiers died at all. Small details here (from sms services and taxidriver friend)
– Lumbini police station’s housing apt for police’s families was attacked with M-79 grenade. Four women injured. This must be the military’s retaliation after Lumbini police shot at the soldiers earlier.
– a resident standing on the 27th floor balcony of his apt in Raj-prarop Rd was shot dead for nothing.
– a retired police officer (will not mention his name now) is ready to replace Sae Daeng and play his role.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
It is very clear now – to ordinary so-called “Thais” – that the Bangkok elite will never treat them as equal citizens, more likely as cattle to be killed whenever they get out of line.
It is now time for Isaarn to SECEDE from the fascist construct
“Thailand”. To form a separate state in alliance with Lanna.
Isaarn also has its’ own language and culture, which Bangkok “Thai” show no signs of ever accepting on equal terms, with equal respect.
Isaarn is a separate NATION, no longer part of “Thailand”.
Reds’ fatal flaw: Thailand’s fatal flaw
I’m with Tony on this one.
Why is the loss of faith in the democratic process laid only on the shoulders of the current government? I’ve spent quite a bit of time in Buriram and have several close friends there (farmers), and I’ve heard firsthand (long before the Reds ever came to be) the accounts of the lead-up to Thaksin’s democratic elections: cash in hand and gifts in kind for a vote in his favor. My friends, of course, all accepted gladly. Why wouldn’t they?
But they’re also not in BKK with the Red Shirts now, they don’t wish for the the return of Thaksin (in the view of one: “He’s a rich man, what does he have in common with me? And why can’t he just be happy with his money and leave Thailand alone?”), nor are they supportive of the movement. They’re aghast at the violence taking place in BKK — and about half divided, some angry with the Red Shirts for pushing it this far and others with the govt for not dispersing the Red Shirts early on.
Even if I were imagining or conjuring the election bribe scenario I described above, I would hope all here would agree that Thaksin was intent on dismantling Thailand’s democratic institutions while he was in power. He used state money to, for all intents and purposes, insure popular support from people who wouldn’t give a fig if he was laying libel suits on every Thai journalist from here to kingdom come and enriching his family’s coffers with land, telecom, and every other kind of deal. He was a non-democrat elected in a tainted democratic election.
If an election were held tomorrow the Red Shirts would surely be happy with the results. But wouldn’t Thailand be right back in Thaksin-land, and is that the best thing for the country?
None of this justifies the carnage taking place in Bangkok now, of course. (But will anyone argue that the Reds — or at least a contingent of Reds — have been aiming for this all along? After all, a movement without martyrs can only be so effective.)
But no one has really answered this question: The Reds say they are fighting for democracy. But if a democratic vote returns to power the party of a corrupt and bent-on-dictatorship leader, what’s the point? You can’t just write off the anti-Thaksin folks as irrelevant because they are middle class and urban. Doesn’t the desire for a clean govt count for anything? If the majority has been bought, then is it atrue, legitimate majority?
Reds’ fatal flaw: Thailand’s fatal flaw
“The red shirts have shown that they can move very effectively from grass roots mobilisation to the national political stage.”
Are you kidding me? The red shirt is a grass roots movement that got national attention, that’s it so far. Moving to the political stage will require a lot more.
The red shirt leader’s fatal flaw was they did not know how to turn a mass movement into a political movement. They proved that they are nothing but a bunch of rural uneducated thugs-I believe ‘nakleng’ is apt–who know how to incite passions and violence but know nothing about political maneuvering. Thailand’s fatal flaw so far has been the inability of its political system to channel the real grievances of its rural poor and bring about institutional change peaceably to accommodate those grievances. The will of the people in a democracy is expressed through its political processes, not extralegal proceedings, coups, or mass violence as is the case in Thailand today.
RED SHIRTS LEARN REVOLUTION BY COMMITTEE DOES NOT WORK
The Red Shirt leadership have been divided between those who take their cues from Thaksin–you have to ask, who’s paying for what is presumably a very expensive protest?–and those who act independently of the ‘invisible hand.” A majority of the leadership seemed to have thought Abhisit’s roadmap was acceptable. Look at their public statements; they were about to accept it. The leaders who wouldn’t accept Abhisit’s roadmap knew that it meant they would be imprisoned or politically neutered. These leaders couldn’t get the concessions they wanted from the backdoor negotiations to save their own neck. They felt cornered with no other options but to incite violence. It’s interesting that in the last couple of days, the younger leaders seemed to have taken over the Red movement. Witness who’s talking for the reds during this violent period. And witness the older and more independent leaders leaving the Red protest. They know they no longer control the movement. The young guns have taken over and they’re willing to sacrifice their followers to the violence because they are now cornered with nowhere to go. They will be judged for their reckless actions, not only by the government but by the Reds themselves.
THE ROAD MAP: OPPORTUNITY MISSED
Had the Red Shirt leadership had any sense they would have looked at the road map as a beginning of a political process, not the end product. Those who say the road map was a dead end, including some in the red leadership and many on this board, don’t understand political maneuvering. The road map showed Abhisit was willing to concede. It called for new elections only a couple of months beyond what the red shirts were agreeable to. It was judged by most Thais to be very reasonable, if not downright generous. The reds could have taken the vague outlines created by the road map and created their own political strategy to win overwhelming majorities and usurp the system from within. Their road to real institutional/constitutional changes would be significantly less difficult if they were controlling many of the levers of government from within. That would be a real position of strength. As it is, they’ve lost the sympathies of those Thais sitting on the fence and may be seen as nothing more than a bunch of street thugs.
I PROTESTED FOR TWO MONTHS AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS LOUSY T-SHIRT?
The red leaders promised their followers the sky and when the only thing they could deliver was a road map, it became difficult for the leaders to legitimately say, “We won! You could go home now.” Remember, the original demand was for dissolution of parliament and resignation of Abhisit immediately. Does anybody else think that’s realistic besides the poor protesters and their farang sympathizers on this blog? Politics is a game of give and take–the red leaders should have explained that to their followers.
WHAT NOW?
The Red movement is far from dead. They realize they can make a real difference in Thai politics and their voice will be heard. It’s now a matter of regrouping and learning how to move from the streets to the halls of government. How will this movement of the people become a viable political movement? That will require real leadership that understands how to get what they want through political maneuvering and peaceful means as well as street action. That also means grass roots mobilization and discipline in the rank and file. Thailand will remain very volatile if the Red movement doesn’t get what it wants through politics and not mob action. Equality and justice for the rest of the country outside Bangkok isn’t much to ask, is it? Let’s hope the Red will choose leaders who understand this.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Let me inform the world that there are much more corpses, much more dead bodies than what the government informed us. Thousand of bags for dead bodies were given to the army to pick up any corpses after they were killed, followed by army trucks. That was the reason why they shot any target to scar away those reporters from taking any picture.
Bangkok at war
sorry mistake: 198 ordinary folk dead in total (my error): No soldiers dead
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Where is M79? Where is machine gun? Where is terrorist? Where is war weapon? We can only see stick, slingshots,stone. The Thai government is full of bastards, big liars, hooligans,terrorists and big bully. The kill innocent people with snipers, who hide themselves on the building and shoot at every passer by. It is time for all citizens to wake up and overturn them. We cannot let this government and those people behind them to stay any longer. The longer we let them stay, the more they will kill innocent people. Normal citizens are no longer important to them any more. The only group that are important to them are soldiers, Democrats Party, yellow-shirt. Those tyrants behind this government will have to be hung.
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Many of them are not peaceful protesters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en&v=6rGqZDvRa_U&gl=US
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Glad you are OK. Saw you in a video a while back so knew you were safe then.
I do have one question and you may want to defer it here, but you can always email me the answer. There is a lot of talk by CRES and the PM about the Reds being armed, I’m not talking sticks, stones, bottle rockets, homemade stuff or slingshots but actual war weapons. “Have you seen or had a shot of Reds actually shooting at the Army with war weapons?”
So far there seems to be no pictures in existence, at least not from what I have seen or the people I’ve talked to that are also covering the situation. Even the Post and Nation only have pictures of the Military firing, my thinking is that if there was any they would have them front and center.
.
Bangkok at war
as at 0700 hours 24 confirmed killed, 198 seriously injured
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
[…] Nick Nostich was with a group of slingshot-armed Reds manning a barricade: It made a sickening sound when bullets hit the protester who had just joked around with us – in the arm and in the stomach. A few protesters on our side tried to throw a rope over to pull the injured protester to us, but it did not work. The shooting never stopped. Another protester, who tried to crawl away, was hit in the leg and the shoulder. One guy managed to run over to us. I began losing any sense of time… […]
Bangkok at war
The clip shows folk lying on the ground trying to fake death to avoid being shot: the person killed in this clip is named р╕Щр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕Мр╕н aged 17…
Nick Nostitz in the killing zone
Amazing photos and article..Agree w/ Chris above.. news reporting at its best !