25 thai 3 foreigners hurt near intersection rama 4 near dusit thani hotel. this is clearly a separate incident from the skytrain bomb earlier. army now looking for perps. in surrounding high rise buildings
1/ There is nothing personal about history because what happened is already happened you can not intrepid any other way …
2/ Moreover, the rule of thumb for every historian is, history was only written by whoever win the war.
Tarrin, do you think there is conflict between these two statements of yours?
Anyway let me say why the Red Gaures and NawaPol are so much different than the Red but rather more similar to the Yellow/Pink. First you are certainly wrong about who initiate the formation of Red Gaurs /NawaPol – they were formed by the ISOC and not politician from Ayudhya as you said …
Don’t you think there was involvement of local provincial politicians in supplying manpower for the Red Gaur and village scouts? Wasn’t it true that Ayudhya supplied many of the people who carried out the 1976 massacre?
Regarding the makeup of the Red Gaur and village scouts wouldn’t you accept that it was mainly rural like the UDD as opposed to the PAD’s mainly Bangkok middle-class membership.
I do think you should remove your tinted glasses every now and then and let some daylight in.
“We followed our dinner with a cultural show at one of the museums in Soi Twilight” … hmmmm. 🙂
The first time the reds drove through Sliom earlier in April, they were loudly supported by all the Silom street sellers. I saw no disapproval. Of course none of that made it into the press, which showed only one lady telling them to bugger off.
reports of firing between red and multi coulored shirts near rama IV and Sala Daeng near/ outside dusit thani hotel. not clear who is shooting at who. army getting ready to move – tv coverage shows lots of people running around the bts – skytrain but no sign of army or police in immediate area of skytrain. ambulances on scene
Camera crews on the scene – police finding finding it diff. to control red shirts and opposing multi coloured shirts groups who having been facing off each other from earlier today/ aft.
30 mins ago M79 X 2 fired into within? Sala daeng – Silom Skytrain station ? 4 hurt? Police and Army investigating station closed to public Live coverage Thai PBS free to air tv
Excellent assessment of the larger picture in this crisis, insightful and revealing Marc, it would help if more of the ardent reds and anti-reds read this (no pun intended), however, a separate study of the typical Thai character traits and shortcomings towards problem solving and resolution is also essential.
As we can see from the latest salvo in this ongoing crisis I’d like to volunteer the following observations;
1.Typically, those involved in political conflict prefer to up-the-ante than explore common ground towards compromise and peaceful solutions, with a misguided belief that their way is the only way.
2. Protagonists (third parties included) generally exercise poor judgement and diplomacy in deciding what is right and acceptable for the larger population as a whole, preferring selfish goals
3. Too many hidden agendas and lack of sincerity, with the belief that ultimately they can get away with it (ie trying to exonerate Thaksin, or trying to influence politics from the outside – e.g Military).
4. Failure to see the high road and low road options down the line (e.g. an immediate election is likely to return a PT govt that will soon draw PAD on to the streets when they effect a free-Thaksin policy).
5. A history of poor law enforcement in Thailand which both sides know they can take advantage of, and similarly a culture of impunity with no accountability, meaning neither the Yellow or Red shirt leaders fear prosecution, due to bad precedents set.
Also key to the most recent turning point (the failed talks), it’s critical to note that although the Democrat govt are guilty of ‘political theft’, they have shown far more effort and willingness to talk reconciliation with some modicum of sincerity (compared to PPP), and compromise on a time scale to dissolution, and the UDD leaders (tacitly dictated by Thaksin) would hear nothing less than ‘immediate’ dissolution. We all know the hidden agendas behind this, but the UDD should be damned by the public for taking such an uncompromising hardline when the state is teetering on the brink of civil war. One has to question their motives, perhaps a civil war is what they want afterall, but that is a whole new discussion.
There’s much to disagree with in this post from Grant Evans. Rather than a diatribe, though, just three points. First, Evans seems to have missed two very significant events, one involving the queen and another involving the queen and prince. They attended the funeral of a favourite colonel killed on 10 April and then she visited the soldiers injured on that day, praising them for defending “this country of ours.” The decision to pay out to all strikes many as a belated bit of ass-covering after being seen to be totally partisan. Second, how does Evans have any handle on what red shirts think of the king? There has been a (shocking for some) lack of royal symbols amongst the protesters. And third, why not read the appearance in a phrai t-shirt as a personal and symbolic act of rebellion?
“the fiasco that Thaksin’s administration created in the south” > To anybody, who has studied this issue to a certain extent, this statement is simplistic at best.
Actually, the much-repeated “quote” is ‘Democracy is not my goal’.
I say “quote” (i.e. in quote marks) because it’s one of those great examples of how a newspaper’s headline can become what’s remembered and quoted ad infinitum – as if it were a] all that was said and b] an accurate representation of what was said by the speaker.
As you’ll see from the article text, there is some significant nuance in what Thaksin was saying – particularly as it was on Constitution Day. Needless to say, none of that nuance made it into the headline – and it’s only the headline that people remember and quote now.
Does anyone know if any international or legal monitoring by human rights groups is going on?
If the army do start shooting against civilians and set-off a massacre it is a clear breach of the Rome Statutes and army commanders and Thailand’s political leaders must be held to account internationally.
This is not 1973, 1976 or 1992.
The Cold War is over and Yugoslavia, Israel and Rwanda has taught the world that those who lead massacres against civilians can be held criminally responsible even if some of the perpetrators are yet to be brought to justice.
Yeah, I was aware of the fate of Taksin and how the Chakri dynasty began in a rather indecorous manner. My first instinct when I saw this shrine of course, which is very prominent at this protest, was to see explicit subversion of the current monarchy. But in all of my talks with Red shirts I just never heard any criticism directly of Bhumipol so I dismissed what I first thought.
I asked one Red about this Taksin shrine and he mentioned that Taksin was important because he unified Thailand but said nothing more.
Having said this I will go out for a drink with a certain Thai source soon and see what he has to say about it.
Also had a VERY interesting conversation with a member of the Establishment today where I work (a citadel here in Bangkok). It’s as close as I’ll ever get to hearing firsthand what the leaders of the Yellow shirts think. It was a real eye opener.
I have no doubt in my mind avid NM followers are sick of Vichai N’s posters. But I have taken it upon myself to remove whatever ‘romantic’ notions foreigners/Aussies carry that the Reds movement is pro-democracy, is peaceful and has Thailand’s long-term prosperity/stability as their goal.
Shawn Crispin’s AsiaTimes Apr-23rd article darkly begins with:
” . . . Across the street from Thailand’s main financial district, anti-government protesters gathered sharpened bamboo poles while a speaker dressed in black threatened to castrate soldiers deployed nearby if they moved to disperse their protest site. A renegade army soldier who has accurately predicted a bombing campaign across the national capital, Major General Khattiya Sawsdipol, alias Seh Daeng, looked on in full uniform while the red shirt-wearing crowd cheered his presence.”
” . . Several UDD leaders hail from militant leftist backgrounds, including time spent in the 1970s and 1980s with the former insurgent Communist Party of Thailand (CPT), and have played up the notion that they are engaged in a class struggle pitting the rural poor majority against an urban elite minority. Red shirts sold and worn by protesters have recently popped up at the rally site emblazoned with the Thai word ”phrai”, which loosely translates to ”peasant” in English, as well as the CPT’s former single red starred caps.
The UDD has mobilized the potent symbolism while simultaneously drawing on the personality cult of Thaksin, a Sino-Thai businessman who leveraged exclusive telecom operating concessions from the state into a billion-dollar personal fortune. Thaksin has vowed during different video-linked addresses to his red-shirt supporters that he would completely eradicate poverty in Thailand if restored to power.
Former left-leaning journalist and Thaksin government policy advisor, Pansak Vinyaratn, himself born to an elite banking family, has played a key behind-the-scenes role in crafting the class struggle symbolism that the UDD has mobilized since overtaking Bangkok’s high-end commercial district, according to one Thai intelligence official tracking developments. The bowtie-wearing Pansak could not be reached for comment. . .”
In recent times he has proven that he cannot contain his sense of bias in his journalism. His report on a muslim nation proved his ethics in this regard, and this time, reducing his stature to the point where he makes the editorial decision to show the potential future Queen of Thailand Naked on Australian Television, on the National Broadcaster. As an Australian and a journalist I’m ashamed of this sensationalist, who ought to be a columnist for a UK trash magazine. Whoever at the ABC thought it wise to give this child a gun, should now have a good look at that policy, and make adjustments.
Campbell – do you really think you couldn’t tell the story without naked images of the future Queen?
Government doesn’t control the media to the degree you imply. Print media is privately owned, for example, and can turn on the government at any time.
TV is a different story, though Manager occasionally accuse Thai PBS of being pro-republican – how’s that for a government station!
Ultimately, TV doesn’t affect what can we learn about both Songrkrans, there are many other ways to learn about investigation results, compare them with available information, and test alternative theories.
A bit of psychology and a little knowledge of why and how propaganda works will provide the answers.
If in doubt, look at the people when you ask a question, if the answer comes without a pause, and with eyes looking directly ahead, the answer comes from an automatic response, not a reasoned and considered response.
Something else we have to thank Uncle Sam for… thank God for the land of the free, and the home of the brave, yessir.
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Thailand on the verge
25 thai 3 foreigners hurt near intersection rama 4 near dusit thani hotel. this is clearly a separate incident from the skytrain bomb earlier. army now looking for perps. in surrounding high rise buildings
Ominous signs
Tarrin – 12
1/ There is nothing personal about history because what happened is already happened you can not intrepid any other way …
2/ Moreover, the rule of thumb for every historian is, history was only written by whoever win the war.
Tarrin, do you think there is conflict between these two statements of yours?
Anyway let me say why the Red Gaures and NawaPol are so much different than the Red but rather more similar to the Yellow/Pink. First you are certainly wrong about who initiate the formation of Red Gaurs /NawaPol – they were formed by the ISOC and not politician from Ayudhya as you said …
Don’t you think there was involvement of local provincial politicians in supplying manpower for the Red Gaur and village scouts? Wasn’t it true that Ayudhya supplied many of the people who carried out the 1976 massacre?
Regarding the makeup of the Red Gaur and village scouts wouldn’t you accept that it was mainly rural like the UDD as opposed to the PAD’s mainly Bangkok middle-class membership.
I do think you should remove your tinted glasses every now and then and let some daylight in.
More scenes from the stand-off in Bangkok
“We followed our dinner with a cultural show at one of the museums in Soi Twilight” … hmmmm. 🙂
The first time the reds drove through Sliom earlier in April, they were loudly supported by all the Silom street sellers. I saw no disapproval. Of course none of that made it into the press, which showed only one lady telling them to bugger off.
Thailand on the verge
reports of firing between red and multi coulored shirts near rama IV and Sala Daeng near/ outside dusit thani hotel. not clear who is shooting at who. army getting ready to move – tv coverage shows lots of people running around the bts – skytrain but no sign of army or police in immediate area of skytrain. ambulances on scene
Thailand on the verge
Camera crews on the scene – police finding finding it diff. to control red shirts and opposing multi coloured shirts groups who having been facing off each other from earlier today/ aft.
translation courtesy of my wife
Thailand on the verge
30 mins ago M79 X 2 fired into within? Sala daeng – Silom Skytrain station ? 4 hurt? Police and Army investigating station closed to public Live coverage Thai PBS free to air tv
Thai style chaos and the right wing backlash
Excellent assessment of the larger picture in this crisis, insightful and revealing Marc, it would help if more of the ardent reds and anti-reds read this (no pun intended), however, a separate study of the typical Thai character traits and shortcomings towards problem solving and resolution is also essential.
As we can see from the latest salvo in this ongoing crisis I’d like to volunteer the following observations;
1.Typically, those involved in political conflict prefer to up-the-ante than explore common ground towards compromise and peaceful solutions, with a misguided belief that their way is the only way.
2. Protagonists (third parties included) generally exercise poor judgement and diplomacy in deciding what is right and acceptable for the larger population as a whole, preferring selfish goals
3. Too many hidden agendas and lack of sincerity, with the belief that ultimately they can get away with it (ie trying to exonerate Thaksin, or trying to influence politics from the outside – e.g Military).
4. Failure to see the high road and low road options down the line (e.g. an immediate election is likely to return a PT govt that will soon draw PAD on to the streets when they effect a free-Thaksin policy).
5. A history of poor law enforcement in Thailand which both sides know they can take advantage of, and similarly a culture of impunity with no accountability, meaning neither the Yellow or Red shirt leaders fear prosecution, due to bad precedents set.
Also key to the most recent turning point (the failed talks), it’s critical to note that although the Democrat govt are guilty of ‘political theft’, they have shown far more effort and willingness to talk reconciliation with some modicum of sincerity (compared to PPP), and compromise on a time scale to dissolution, and the UDD leaders (tacitly dictated by Thaksin) would hear nothing less than ‘immediate’ dissolution. We all know the hidden agendas behind this, but the UDD should be damned by the public for taking such an uncompromising hardline when the state is teetering on the brink of civil war. One has to question their motives, perhaps a civil war is what they want afterall, but that is a whole new discussion.
Royal reds, reds, and rebel reds
There’s much to disagree with in this post from Grant Evans. Rather than a diatribe, though, just three points. First, Evans seems to have missed two very significant events, one involving the queen and another involving the queen and prince. They attended the funeral of a favourite colonel killed on 10 April and then she visited the soldiers injured on that day, praising them for defending “this country of ours.” The decision to pay out to all strikes many as a belated bit of ass-covering after being seen to be totally partisan. Second, how does Evans have any handle on what red shirts think of the king? There has been a (shocking for some) lack of royal symbols amongst the protesters. And third, why not read the appearance in a phrai t-shirt as a personal and symbolic act of rebellion?
Royal reds, reds, and rebel reds
“the fiasco that Thaksin’s administration created in the south” > To anybody, who has studied this issue to a certain extent, this statement is simplistic at best.
Thai style chaos and the right wing backlash
@ Dion Peoples (#13)…..
Actually, the much-repeated “quote” is ‘Democracy is not my goal’.
I say “quote” (i.e. in quote marks) because it’s one of those great examples of how a newspaper’s headline can become what’s remembered and quoted ad infinitum – as if it were a] all that was said and b] an accurate representation of what was said by the speaker.
The newspaper in question? The Nation. http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/read.php?newsid=90343
As you’ll see from the article text, there is some significant nuance in what Thaksin was saying – particularly as it was on Constitution Day. Needless to say, none of that nuance made it into the headline – and it’s only the headline that people remember and quote now.
Thai style chaos and the right wing backlash
Does anyone know if any international or legal monitoring by human rights groups is going on?
If the army do start shooting against civilians and set-off a massacre it is a clear breach of the Rome Statutes and army commanders and Thailand’s political leaders must be held to account internationally.
This is not 1973, 1976 or 1992.
The Cold War is over and Yugoslavia, Israel and Rwanda has taught the world that those who lead massacres against civilians can be held criminally responsible even if some of the perpetrators are yet to be brought to justice.
Thai style chaos and the right wing backlash
Plop above has mixed up events of 1973 and 1976 into one, bending his parallels to merge.
Thailand on the verge – podcast
Polythemus & Aladdin,
Yeah, I was aware of the fate of Taksin and how the Chakri dynasty began in a rather indecorous manner. My first instinct when I saw this shrine of course, which is very prominent at this protest, was to see explicit subversion of the current monarchy. But in all of my talks with Red shirts I just never heard any criticism directly of Bhumipol so I dismissed what I first thought.
I asked one Red about this Taksin shrine and he mentioned that Taksin was important because he unified Thailand but said nothing more.
Having said this I will go out for a drink with a certain Thai source soon and see what he has to say about it.
Also had a VERY interesting conversation with a member of the Establishment today where I work (a citadel here in Bangkok). It’s as close as I’ll ever get to hearing firsthand what the leaders of the Yellow shirts think. It was a real eye opener.
Royal reds, reds, and rebel reds
I have no doubt in my mind avid NM followers are sick of Vichai N’s posters. But I have taken it upon myself to remove whatever ‘romantic’ notions foreigners/Aussies carry that the Reds movement is pro-democracy, is peaceful and has Thailand’s long-term prosperity/stability as their goal.
Shawn Crispin’s AsiaTimes Apr-23rd article darkly begins with:
” . . . Across the street from Thailand’s main financial district, anti-government protesters gathered sharpened bamboo poles while a speaker dressed in black threatened to castrate soldiers deployed nearby if they moved to disperse their protest site. A renegade army soldier who has accurately predicted a bombing campaign across the national capital, Major General Khattiya Sawsdipol, alias Seh Daeng, looked on in full uniform while the red shirt-wearing crowd cheered his presence.”
” . . Several UDD leaders hail from militant leftist backgrounds, including time spent in the 1970s and 1980s with the former insurgent Communist Party of Thailand (CPT), and have played up the notion that they are engaged in a class struggle pitting the rural poor majority against an urban elite minority. Red shirts sold and worn by protesters have recently popped up at the rally site emblazoned with the Thai word ”phrai”, which loosely translates to ”peasant” in English, as well as the CPT’s former single red starred caps.
The UDD has mobilized the potent symbolism while simultaneously drawing on the personality cult of Thaksin, a Sino-Thai businessman who leveraged exclusive telecom operating concessions from the state into a billion-dollar personal fortune. Thaksin has vowed during different video-linked addresses to his red-shirt supporters that he would completely eradicate poverty in Thailand if restored to power.
Former left-leaning journalist and Thaksin government policy advisor, Pansak Vinyaratn, himself born to an elite banking family, has played a key behind-the-scenes role in crafting the class struggle symbolism that the UDD has mobilized since overtaking Bangkok’s high-end commercial district, according to one Thai intelligence official tracking developments. The bowtie-wearing Pansak could not be reached for comment. . .”
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LD23Ae01.html
Scenes from Sala Daeng
I hope those are rubber coated steel riot shotgun shells.
But rubber shouldn’t be that shiny…
Eric Campbell on journalistic duty
Eric Campbell is a disgrace.
In recent times he has proven that he cannot contain his sense of bias in his journalism. His report on a muslim nation proved his ethics in this regard, and this time, reducing his stature to the point where he makes the editorial decision to show the potential future Queen of Thailand Naked on Australian Television, on the National Broadcaster. As an Australian and a journalist I’m ashamed of this sensationalist, who ought to be a columnist for a UK trash magazine. Whoever at the ABC thought it wise to give this child a gun, should now have a good look at that policy, and make adjustments.
Campbell – do you really think you couldn’t tell the story without naked images of the future Queen?
You’re a disgrace.
Thailand on the verge
Ermm, please correct “strong” tag in the previous comment. It should be strong “we” only.
Thailand on the verge
Government doesn’t control the media to the degree you imply. Print media is privately owned, for example, and can turn on the government at any time.
TV is a different story, though Manager occasionally accuse Thai PBS of being pro-republican – how’s that for a government station!
Ultimately, TV doesn’t affect what can we learn about both Songrkrans, there are many other ways to learn about investigation results, compare them with available information, and test alternative theories.
Royal reds, reds, and rebel reds
A bit of psychology and a little knowledge of why and how propaganda works will provide the answers.
If in doubt, look at the people when you ask a question, if the answer comes without a pause, and with eyes looking directly ahead, the answer comes from an automatic response, not a reasoned and considered response.
Something else we have to thank Uncle Sam for… thank God for the land of the free, and the home of the brave, yessir.
Thai style chaos and the right wing backlash
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