Thomas – how do you know Veera was simply translating English idiom into Thai, you just learned about it today!
How do you know it was a case of political opportunism and infighting?
He was at the height of his political career (under Prem) when he made “I’m poor” comment, over thirty years ago, and I highly doubt the house in question was built then.
Five years as a minister with Thaksin would explain it better.
The real allegation, though, is that Veera and others siphoned funds from red protests over the past couple of years.
If the house is indeed “post coup” that should raise some legitimate questions.
…the 10 April events have given the government the upper hand to proclaim elements of the red shirt leadership as allied with “terrorists.”
This has served to besmirch the red shirt movement as a whole.
Ordinary red shirt supporters are being counselled to leave the rally site (now centralized at the Ratchaprasong intersection) for their own safety.
“Given the upper-hand” in a gamesmanship sense… there is no justification for such a proclamation. Is the “game” being critiqued here? Is that what’s “playing out” in Thailand?
And “served to besmirch the red shirt movement” in the words issuing from the stenographers of the Thai MSM only, thence picked up lazy “journalists” world-wide. The charge of “terrorist” leveled at the red shirt rank and file is in reality vile and absurd.
And “being counselled to leave the rally site for their own safety” is neither more nor less than an unveiled threat on their lives… and the only real “terrorism” I see in this account or that I’ve seen of late in Thailand.
The professional assassins at the crackdown were military whether clad in black or green. But military terror is somehow “expected” and “accepted”… a “time-honored” tradition in Thailand.
1. With the government’s censorship of the Reds’ media and around-the-clock government propaganda, it should not surprise anyone that some “non-Reds” believe that the military did a “very professional” job and that there was “no massacre”.
You may believe such things, but in my view the “non-Reds” claims can only have any credence in an environment where there is no censorship or intimidation. Unless all of the facts are allowed to circulate freely it is impossible for people to make a correct judgment.
In any case, apart from the 870 injured and 25 killed, even according to the р╕ир╕нр╕Й., there were 230 military casualties, 92 of them serious [http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1270909637&grpid=00&catid=no. We know that at least 4 soldiers were killed, including a colonel in the Queen’s Guard, while a general was seriously injured. The Bangkok Post reports that nine M16 rifles, 25 Tavor rifles, six anti-aircraft guns, 116 shields, 105 batons and 80 body armour suits, 580 rubber bullet rounds, 600 anti-aircraft rounds and 8,182 M16 rifle rounds were also seized. According to the Bangkok Post, “…The army also lost control of six personnel carriers and three high-mobility multi-purpose vehicles when troops abandoned them in the face of angry red shirts….” [(thanks BP http://www.asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pundit-blog%5D.
These are “facts” that have been published by “non-Red” spokespersons or media. If it is “widely accepted” among non-Reds that this was a “very professional” operation, as you claim, then one can only assume that their standards of army professionalism are very low indeed.
2. Re. the Queen, of course she has to attend the funeral of her bodyguard. If she abandoned those in the military who are closest to her that would be tantamount to political suicide.
But my question to the panellists was about international law – if the Queen’s Guard was involved in another massacre of Red Shirts would it be possible to charge her with murder (or at least complicity to murder) at the International Court of Justice?
4. I’m not sure what your point re. the Palace’s announcement that they will pay the medical expenses of all those injured is supposed to imply. That the Palace is impartial? If this is indeed what you mean perhaps you could ask the family of someone who was shot dead or wounded by the Queen’s Guard whether the Palace is impartial or not. Obviously, to get an honest answer that would require that the lese majeste law be abolished, because it would be violating the law to say that the Palace is partial and interferes in Thai politics, or is complicit in the killing of Red Shirt protesters.
Thanks, Arthurson #11, for the timely reminder re. 1973.
Setting aside the whole question of whether it is justifiable for a modern state to turn its troops, whose existence should be for the sole purposes of defending against external threats as well as assisting in disaster relief, against their fellow citizens, there is also the very obvious evidence of their extreme incompetence. For a military force with something near 700 Generals (correct me if you can provide reliably sourced figures), there seems to be a definite lack of understanding, awareness of the special needs of situations like this, competent planning, informed decision-making, & just plain basic training. This is attested to by the extreme clumsiness & miserable failures of similar operations in the South, as well as Bangkok, over many years.
It is arguable that the Thai military behaves like a terrorist rabble, promoting fear & divisiveness amongst the populace. They are supported in this by a hideously biased & irresponsible local MSM & a rapidly growing number of people who, accepting this behaviour as the norm, are now desensitized, & have lost their basic humanity. I am frequently shocked by vicious & infantile remarks made by local workmates & neighbours, which suggest that the answer to problems in the South or the current situation is to “kill them all.” I have a growing feeling of hopelessness, with nagging suggestions that I may be living amongst a society that is being enculturated as evil, moronic sociopaths. I’m appalled at the comments in the press, in blogs, & on facebook, immediately following the events on 10th April.
Today, BBC news has had the disturbing news that the troops which have been taking up positions on high buildings around Rachaprasong & in Silom, will use live ammunition “if the Redshirts are armed.” Does that mean that they will intelligently discriminate between those who are & those who aren’t? Of course not! How can they?
The army, it is reported, has intelligence (!) to the effect that Redshirts are stockpiling home-made weapons. If they have this info, how is it they are doing nothing about it? Where are these stockpiles? Surely they can stop them getting the parts through the many roadblocks? If not, why not? I went for a walk in the Siam-Rachaprasong area on Saturday evening & my shoulder bag was checked by Redshirt security people 3 times in the space of an hour and a half. (I’m not a Redshirt or an Any-Other-Colour shirt. I simply wanted to see what is going on. I assure you that it was not remotely like what I had been told by local media to expect. It was absolutely non-threatening.)
Why has the army not recalled all the Tahan Pran? Can’t they control their own forces? How are these paramilitaries able to just leave their areas WITH MILITARY-ISSUE WEAPONS, & wander off to pursue their own agendas? What kind of army is this?
The Cromwell quote applies equally to everyone who is running this country. Parliamentarians are one of the groups. You can figure out who some of the others are.
Veera was a party to a coup attempt in 1978, the coup leader was sentenced to death and Veera thrown to jail. It was Prem who “plucked” him out and gave a ministerial position.
For StanG: Better get onto Abhisit then. He said in his TV interview on 19th (and I cite the MFA summary): “there are people who have real grievances about poverty, injustice and unfair treatment and other issues related to what democracy should entail – problems faced by the Thai society for many years. ”
Other govt figures (via NESDB) show that Thailand has inequalities in wealth, income and land distribution that are increasing.
ADB figures show Thailand near the top of Asian inequality.
None of which denies that there has been income mobility.
Income disparity in Thailand is on par with South East Asia and the US but far behind Europe.
Don’t forget that for the past fifty years the country modeled itself after the US style capitalism, not “socialist” Europe.
There’s no evidence that actual income disparity plays any role in the current protests. It’s been preached from the stage and broadcast nationwide but there’s no evidence that it has any bottom up sentiment to it. At most you’ll get people parroting what they heard on the radio and that’s how far their understanding goes.
Most of the current middle class in Bangkok have deep upcountry roots – just watch how empty the city is on big family holidays like Songkran or New Year.
Only blind would deny social mobility and opportunities in Thailand. Tens of millions of people have “made it” here in the space of just one generation.
Whatever one thinks about Veera’s character, personality or wealth, the whole LM case against him demonstrates again that the law is used as an opportunistic tool for political in-fighting and vendettas not to protect the king.
Veera was convicted for using a common idiom like “I’d like to live like a king.”
To demonstrate the absurdity of the application of this law, I submit this quotation from one of the Nation’s opinion writers.
“If the earth is just a pale blue dot, what is Thailand then? Something smaller than a pixel on that dot? And even in this tiny pixel, we have managed to mess it up so royally.”
Should she be charged with LM for the use of this idiom? The care which with language needs to be processed under this law leads to all sorts of evils.
Aussie Alumnus, Veera never actually used the word “Raja” in the controversial speech.
You asked how Veera got so rich? Quick answer: he was a cabinet member during a Democrat Party government. Repression and corruption – trademarks of the Democrat Party.
(and before you answer: yes, I know that Thaksin was repressive and corrupt as well)
Aussie Alumnus, it never ceases to amaze me if someone sees through Abhisit’s repressive ways is lumped as being a SUPPORTER OF THAKIN.
It’s not that I don’t think Thaksin was destructive to Thailand – I just think that Abhisit is even more destructive. His censorship, media manipulation, and outright lies are insults to human dignity. To support him is in fact furthering the destruction of Thai democracy.
Yes I know all of the thing you said, and no, I’m not naive. I’m not the one who said you listen to Pae Lim and seems like you know more than many of the yellow here knew. However, Thaksin was not the only one who benefit from the Coup of 1992, there were other business group that greatly benefit from it such as the Bangkok Bank and CP, moreover, the coup of 2006 had bought a large some of money to Gen. Sondhi as well. The exact amount is debatable but it was raged somewhere from 800M – to 1.5B give or take. Blaming Thaksin alone is not going to solve anything because he was only a part of the wheel of corrupted elite that has been put in place in Thailand for well over half a century.
Moreover, about the price, regardless of what he had done in the past, I would say he is the best of the bunch since he never tried to hide the fact that he is an A-H. On the other hand, we have this horde or royalty who had run amok around Thailand trying to crate their godly impassioned image, whether they successful in helping people or not is totally different matter. I respected the prince in that he is true to himself.
I might add that ASTV2 transformed into TAN just before the Asean conference in Pattaya last year. It was going big on promoting the Asean meeting and interviewed the manager of the hotel Arisman et all later stormed.
Typical of their lousy programming, the day AFTER the red shirts stormed the Cliff Hotel, TAN again ran the interview, with the manager boasting about the wonderful facilities and rooms the Asian leaders would enjoy during the summit.
Thanks you so much Marc for a wonderfully balanced piece on the current situation (and thanks too NM for putting it up).
I’ve got some of your works (on Bangkok and also the deep south), and have always been impressed with your insightful analysis. Keep up the good work!
I wish more people on this forum, particularly those who profess to be academics, were as insightful and even-handed in their commentary…
Perhaps then it is time for the CP to grow up and do something positive for a change. …… Some hope!
One has zero faith in Thai politicians. Not that they are real politicians anyway. Just a bunch of corrupt warmongering mafia scum on both sides of the succession divide. I can’t even begin to figure what it is some of you NMites see in any of them. The idea that they are about to usher in some new era is pure BS. All evidence points to the contrary. These people do not have the necessary skills to fix this country’s problems, since that have only ever learned how to destroy that which doesn’t immediately serve their selfish interests. both sides have nothing to offer except more non-productive conflict.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Reflections on Eric Campbell’s royal report
Thomas – how do you know Veera was simply translating English idiom into Thai, you just learned about it today!
How do you know it was a case of political opportunism and infighting?
He was at the height of his political career (under Prem) when he made “I’m poor” comment, over thirty years ago, and I highly doubt the house in question was built then.
Five years as a minister with Thaksin would explain it better.
The real allegation, though, is that Veera and others siphoned funds from red protests over the past couple of years.
If the house is indeed “post coup” that should raise some legitimate questions.
Thai style chaos and the right wing backlash
…the 10 April events have given the government the upper hand to proclaim elements of the red shirt leadership as allied with “terrorists.”
This has served to besmirch the red shirt movement as a whole.
Ordinary red shirt supporters are being counselled to leave the rally site (now centralized at the Ratchaprasong intersection) for their own safety.
“Given the upper-hand” in a gamesmanship sense… there is no justification for such a proclamation. Is the “game” being critiqued here? Is that what’s “playing out” in Thailand?
And “served to besmirch the red shirt movement” in the words issuing from the stenographers of the Thai MSM only, thence picked up lazy “journalists” world-wide. The charge of “terrorist” leveled at the red shirt rank and file is in reality vile and absurd.
And “being counselled to leave the rally site for their own safety” is neither more nor less than an unveiled threat on their lives… and the only real “terrorism” I see in this account or that I’ve seen of late in Thailand.
The professional assassins at the crackdown were military whether clad in black or green. But military terror is somehow “expected” and “accepted”… a “time-honored” tradition in Thailand.
Thailand on the verge
StanG,
1. With the government’s censorship of the Reds’ media and around-the-clock government propaganda, it should not surprise anyone that some “non-Reds” believe that the military did a “very professional” job and that there was “no massacre”.
You may believe such things, but in my view the “non-Reds” claims can only have any credence in an environment where there is no censorship or intimidation. Unless all of the facts are allowed to circulate freely it is impossible for people to make a correct judgment.
In any case, apart from the 870 injured and 25 killed, even according to the р╕ир╕нр╕Й., there were 230 military casualties, 92 of them serious [http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1270909637&grpid=00&catid=no. We know that at least 4 soldiers were killed, including a colonel in the Queen’s Guard, while a general was seriously injured. The Bangkok Post reports that nine M16 rifles, 25 Tavor rifles, six anti-aircraft guns, 116 shields, 105 batons and 80 body armour suits, 580 rubber bullet rounds, 600 anti-aircraft rounds and 8,182 M16 rifle rounds were also seized. According to the Bangkok Post, “…The army also lost control of six personnel carriers and three high-mobility multi-purpose vehicles when troops abandoned them in the face of angry red shirts….” [(thanks BP http://www.asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pundit-blog%5D.
These are “facts” that have been published by “non-Red” spokespersons or media. If it is “widely accepted” among non-Reds that this was a “very professional” operation, as you claim, then one can only assume that their standards of army professionalism are very low indeed.
2. Re. the Queen, of course she has to attend the funeral of her bodyguard. If she abandoned those in the military who are closest to her that would be tantamount to political suicide.
But my question to the panellists was about international law – if the Queen’s Guard was involved in another massacre of Red Shirts would it be possible to charge her with murder (or at least complicity to murder) at the International Court of Justice?
4. I’m not sure what your point re. the Palace’s announcement that they will pay the medical expenses of all those injured is supposed to imply. That the Palace is impartial? If this is indeed what you mean perhaps you could ask the family of someone who was shot dead or wounded by the Queen’s Guard whether the Palace is impartial or not. Obviously, to get an honest answer that would require that the lese majeste law be abolished, because it would be violating the law to say that the Palace is partial and interferes in Thai politics, or is complicit in the killing of Red Shirt protesters.
Thai style chaos and the right wing backlash
Thanks, Arthurson #11, for the timely reminder re. 1973.
Setting aside the whole question of whether it is justifiable for a modern state to turn its troops, whose existence should be for the sole purposes of defending against external threats as well as assisting in disaster relief, against their fellow citizens, there is also the very obvious evidence of their extreme incompetence. For a military force with something near 700 Generals (correct me if you can provide reliably sourced figures), there seems to be a definite lack of understanding, awareness of the special needs of situations like this, competent planning, informed decision-making, & just plain basic training. This is attested to by the extreme clumsiness & miserable failures of similar operations in the South, as well as Bangkok, over many years.
It is arguable that the Thai military behaves like a terrorist rabble, promoting fear & divisiveness amongst the populace. They are supported in this by a hideously biased & irresponsible local MSM & a rapidly growing number of people who, accepting this behaviour as the norm, are now desensitized, & have lost their basic humanity. I am frequently shocked by vicious & infantile remarks made by local workmates & neighbours, which suggest that the answer to problems in the South or the current situation is to “kill them all.” I have a growing feeling of hopelessness, with nagging suggestions that I may be living amongst a society that is being enculturated as evil, moronic sociopaths. I’m appalled at the comments in the press, in blogs, & on facebook, immediately following the events on 10th April.
Today, BBC news has had the disturbing news that the troops which have been taking up positions on high buildings around Rachaprasong & in Silom, will use live ammunition “if the Redshirts are armed.” Does that mean that they will intelligently discriminate between those who are & those who aren’t? Of course not! How can they?
The army, it is reported, has intelligence (!) to the effect that Redshirts are stockpiling home-made weapons. If they have this info, how is it they are doing nothing about it? Where are these stockpiles? Surely they can stop them getting the parts through the many roadblocks? If not, why not? I went for a walk in the Siam-Rachaprasong area on Saturday evening & my shoulder bag was checked by Redshirt security people 3 times in the space of an hour and a half. (I’m not a Redshirt or an Any-Other-Colour shirt. I simply wanted to see what is going on. I assure you that it was not remotely like what I had been told by local media to expect. It was absolutely non-threatening.)
Why has the army not recalled all the Tahan Pran? Can’t they control their own forces? How are these paramilitaries able to just leave their areas WITH MILITARY-ISSUE WEAPONS, & wander off to pursue their own agendas? What kind of army is this?
Shame on Thailand!
Thai style chaos and the right wing backlash
Richard P,
The Cromwell quote applies equally to everyone who is running this country. Parliamentarians are one of the groups. You can figure out who some of the others are.
Reflections on Eric Campbell’s royal report
Veera was a party to a coup attempt in 1978, the coup leader was sentenced to death and Veera thrown to jail. It was Prem who “plucked” him out and gave a ministerial position.
I don’t remember where I know this from, however.
Thai style chaos and the right wing backlash
“Richard P // Apr 20, 2010 at 8:44 pm
Thanks also to Juan Carlos for posting Oliver Cromwell’s address. Can’t think of anything more apt to describe the average Thai parliamentarian.
“
Nor me. Pretty much sums it up really. Especially the last bit, to which I would add…
Your time has been and gone. For God’s sake go – while you still have a choice.
Anti-pro-democracy
For StanG: Better get onto Abhisit then. He said in his TV interview on 19th (and I cite the MFA summary): “there are people who have real grievances about poverty, injustice and unfair treatment and other issues related to what democracy should entail – problems faced by the Thai society for many years. ”
Other govt figures (via NESDB) show that Thailand has inequalities in wealth, income and land distribution that are increasing.
ADB figures show Thailand near the top of Asian inequality.
None of which denies that there has been income mobility.
Anti-pro-democracy
Income disparity in Thailand is on par with South East Asia and the US but far behind Europe.
Don’t forget that for the past fifty years the country modeled itself after the US style capitalism, not “socialist” Europe.
There’s no evidence that actual income disparity plays any role in the current protests. It’s been preached from the stage and broadcast nationwide but there’s no evidence that it has any bottom up sentiment to it. At most you’ll get people parroting what they heard on the radio and that’s how far their understanding goes.
Most of the current middle class in Bangkok have deep upcountry roots – just watch how empty the city is on big family holidays like Songkran or New Year.
Only blind would deny social mobility and opportunities in Thailand. Tens of millions of people have “made it” here in the space of just one generation.
Reflections on Eric Campbell’s royal report
Aussie Alumnus,
Whatever one thinks about Veera’s character, personality or wealth, the whole LM case against him demonstrates again that the law is used as an opportunistic tool for political in-fighting and vendettas not to protect the king.
Veera was convicted for using a common idiom like “I’d like to live like a king.”
To demonstrate the absurdity of the application of this law, I submit this quotation from one of the Nation’s opinion writers.
“If the earth is just a pale blue dot, what is Thailand then? Something smaller than a pixel on that dot? And even in this tiny pixel, we have managed to mess it up so royally.”
Should she be charged with LM for the use of this idiom? The care which with language needs to be processed under this law leads to all sorts of evils.
Reflections on Eric Campbell’s royal report
Aussie Alumnus, Veera never actually used the word “Raja” in the controversial speech.
You asked how Veera got so rich? Quick answer: he was a cabinet member during a Democrat Party government. Repression and corruption – trademarks of the Democrat Party.
(and before you answer: yes, I know that Thaksin was repressive and corrupt as well)
Reflections on Eric Campbell’s royal report
Aussie Alumnus, it never ceases to amaze me if someone sees through Abhisit’s repressive ways is lumped as being a SUPPORTER OF THAKIN.
It’s not that I don’t think Thaksin was destructive to Thailand – I just think that Abhisit is even more destructive. His censorship, media manipulation, and outright lies are insults to human dignity. To support him is in fact furthering the destruction of Thai democracy.
Reflections on Eric Campbell’s royal report
Aussie Alumnus – 72
Yes I know all of the thing you said, and no, I’m not naive. I’m not the one who said you listen to Pae Lim and seems like you know more than many of the yellow here knew. However, Thaksin was not the only one who benefit from the Coup of 1992, there were other business group that greatly benefit from it such as the Bangkok Bank and CP, moreover, the coup of 2006 had bought a large some of money to Gen. Sondhi as well. The exact amount is debatable but it was raged somewhere from 800M – to 1.5B give or take. Blaming Thaksin alone is not going to solve anything because he was only a part of the wheel of corrupted elite that has been put in place in Thailand for well over half a century.
Moreover, about the price, regardless of what he had done in the past, I would say he is the best of the bunch since he never tried to hide the fact that he is an A-H. On the other hand, we have this horde or royalty who had run amok around Thailand trying to crate their godly impassioned image, whether they successful in helping people or not is totally different matter. I respected the prince in that he is true to himself.
Thai style chaos and the right wing backlash
I might add that ASTV2 transformed into TAN just before the Asean conference in Pattaya last year. It was going big on promoting the Asean meeting and interviewed the manager of the hotel Arisman et all later stormed.
Typical of their lousy programming, the day AFTER the red shirts stormed the Cliff Hotel, TAN again ran the interview, with the manager boasting about the wonderful facilities and rooms the Asian leaders would enjoy during the summit.
Thai style chaos and the right wing backlash
Polyphemus #9
“whether or not the commonly perceived Bangkok elites remain enfranchised”
just a minor point… the redshirts just want to be included in the ability to choose a government
noone is suggesting that the elites be disenfranchised, excluded from the political process
of course democracy assumes equality …
on a per capita basis not by wealth or land-holding … which I suppose comes to the heart of the issue
Thai style chaos and the right wing backlash
Thanks also to Juan Carlos for posting Oliver Cromwell’s address. Can’t think of anything more apt to describe the average Thai parliamentarian.
Thai style chaos and the right wing backlash
@MCSING:
TAN used to be ASTV2 (I think that number’s correct), the English sister channel of Sondhi’s ASTV
Thai style chaos and the right wing backlash
Thanks you so much Marc for a wonderfully balanced piece on the current situation (and thanks too NM for putting it up).
I’ve got some of your works (on Bangkok and also the deep south), and have always been impressed with your insightful analysis. Keep up the good work!
I wish more people on this forum, particularly those who profess to be academics, were as insightful and even-handed in their commentary…
Ominous signs
#19
Perhaps then it is time for the CP to grow up and do something positive for a change. …… Some hope!
One has zero faith in Thai politicians. Not that they are real politicians anyway. Just a bunch of corrupt warmongering mafia scum on both sides of the succession divide. I can’t even begin to figure what it is some of you NMites see in any of them. The idea that they are about to usher in some new era is pure BS. All evidence points to the contrary. These people do not have the necessary skills to fix this country’s problems, since that have only ever learned how to destroy that which doesn’t immediately serve their selfish interests. both sides have nothing to offer except more non-productive conflict.
Anti-pro-democracy
Regarding Vichai N’s observation: “Income disparity exists everywhere . . . and Thailand is no better or worse than the rest of the world.”
Actually this is not exactly accurate. Measuring income or wealth distribution is an important indicator of stability.
The Gini coefficient for Thailand is 43. http://www.indexmundi.com/thailand/distribution_of_family_income_gini_index.html
This is a quite high number which correlates well with the outbreak of significant civil unrest.
While the Gini coefficient in Thailand comes in at 0.433. this should be compare that with Indonesia, where the Gini was 0.343 and with Japan which has a Gini coefficient of 0.312.
If you are unfamiliar with the concept of Gini coefficient, have a look at: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/deltas/www/PublishedWorkingPaperArchive/GiniWEB2.pdf