sure, comparatively speaking – a person who lived in very oppressed place as Burma, when coming to LESS oppressed – may think that it is a paradise, the best country, etc.
John Pilger though is Aussie himself – and don’t you think he DOES know what he’s talking about ? 😉 (he has many works dedicated to his homeland) Aus also has a fame for long history of oppression of indigenous population (well, yeah – Howard “apologized” to them already, didn’t he ? LOL) for “stolen generations” ; as well as handling immigrants in a very racist way. another thing Pilger mentioned that Aus special forces / army have been (or still continue?) training those very same …. Burmese troops. did you know that ? although they are very vocal at demanding “democracy” in Burma.
so, anyway, it is a huge subject to be debated here. but I agree on the part that Thais (and any other ppl) deserve a better conditions. although should it be a “democracy” or whatever else – I think it is another matter. I rather prefer “somtam-ocracy” 🙂
Actually, now that I think about it, I’m going to get business cards made for this site with the URL and hand them out at protests.
Several comments from other posters were interesting in regards to any discussion of the monarchy in Thailand here at NM. In my opinion, the criticism of the role of monarchy and its use of lese majeste to silence any dissent here in Thailand goes much deeper than whether or not Thailand should have a monarchy or that the monarchy is the source of all ills in Thailand. I have spoken with countless Red Shirts this past month and continue to do so and most, from what I can gather, have no intent of disabusing themselves of this institution. From what I have heard, albeit in very hushed tones, and with nods of approval, is that they feel the monarchy has sided with the Yellow Shirts and that after this current king the monarchy should be placed alongside, not over, the people, where it can be manipulated by the elite to exploit the poor.
Most of these Red Shirt protesters simply will not even mention their king, feeling that he is, like one Red Shirt told me, “untouchable” though those around him can be so “touched.” I’ve been here almost seven years, so I’m not saying all this as some backpacker on vacation on Kaosan Rd. Most of the Thais I have met relate to this monarch as a child relates to a father. It’s emotional.
This is not to say of course that these very same protesters don’t appreciate an open and respectful discussion of the future role of their monarchy. As it is NOTHING can be discussed and this is a tragedy. So great journalism by foreigners is heroic in the sense that it shows that the sky isn’t going to fall down if one criticizes Dad. And that Dad need not be perfect to be loved.
It’s amazing how much more success I’ve had speaking with Thai people using this father/love metaphor. Their guard goes down immediately.
But I digress.
Thus the importance of NM in the wider discussion. The other night I heard a UDD leader mention “Andrew Marshal” on stage at Pan Fah Lila no doubt he was reading from one of his articles, and I thought how great it was for the free exchange of ideas.
Perhaps we are all here playing a little part here, as long as we keep our criticism of the monarchy reasonably civilized. Discussion is what’s needed most now in Thailand.
I wouldn’t put too much faith in the Merdeka Centre Poll. With a selective audience in a limited sample size, one can get any statistic. As for Najibs 1Malaysia and GTP initiative, one gets the feeling that its either all talk or he’s has less control over his supporters than Mahathir did. We will never know. If you look at the contradictions that has been spewing out from the DPM and others, you will wonder if they actually understand the concept or simply sabotaging the plan.
Either way, it will take real political will and strenght to pull this off, even if Najib really mean to do good.
From my perspective, Malaysia still has at least 10 years of the “good life” left, with its natural resources. After that, its anybody’s guess.
Aladdin (37), I’m not so sure you are right that the Democrats will all wish to remain a hard-line absolutist court party like the Tories of 17th century England. They are absolutists at present, because of the present King’s great reserve of political capital. Things will be different in the next reign. The new King’s store of political capital will be much smaller, and the new King’s cronies will have less power than those of the last. In the new environment, some among the Democrats will wish to transform the party into a conservative, genuinely constitutional monarchist party like the modern Tories. Surely the more logical of them must even now squirm at the name of their party being such a lie. There must be Democrat MP’s who would aspire to belong to a cabinet whose advice was necessarily taken by the King, rather than being compelled to take orders from someone whose judgement and good name they doubted. The opportunity beckons for the new King to hoist out his father’s cronies in the time-honoured manner, and allow reform of the Privy Council along the lines of modern European constitutional monarchies. He could bring peace to his country and go down in history with a better name than his father. But if he doesn’t have the power or inclination to get rid of the old curmudgeons, the end of the Thai monarchy will surely come.
Did anyone notice the blooper in Erik Jensen’s SMH coverage of Eric Campbell’s report – namely that Chotisak Onsoong did not stand for the “NATIONAL anthem ?
In fact it was the Royal anthem he refused to stand for.
1) This is nothing new in the program and everybody knows it all already, and 2) It’s all rumors anyway, and 3) Only Thais can understand Thai problems, but 4) Anybody that doesn’t tolerate the situation is not “really” Thai, and 5) nobody good could want Thaksin the Evil One in charge again anyway.
Trojan – Your analogy of religion is a good one. The lack of critical capacity of even of the most educated Thai mind never ceases to amaze me. You’ll find doctors and peasants are as pig-headed as each other when it comes to an open discussion about Thailand. When confronted by anything approaching criticism, their natural instinct is to revert to a childlike and spiteful diatribe spouting the familiar old chant of King, Religion and State.
Modern secular and democratic nations have been successful in part because they have managed to separate church from state. Until Thais from all classes grow up enough to separate their own ‘unholy trinity’ I don’t have much hope for them.
Not a *bad* article, and I would expect that *most* red shirts probably would exhibit due reverence if the actual royal anthem were played. However, as most of us here would know, there is nothing royal at all about the (Phibunist) Thai National Anthem played at 8am and 6pm.
I’ve no doubt that most Thais do not bother their pretty little heads with the ironies inherent in having this historical throwback as their national anthem… and probably most do not even have a clue regarding the actual situation in 1939 when said anthem was instituted… but I still imagine that Somchai Everyman would associate this particular anthem with sentiments along the lines of ‘Yay Thais’ and less with the ‘supreme institution’?
wotdem? – As much as I want to agree with you. However, we are more than ready to fight with people like Thaksin or Veera for that matter, even among the red, they all know that one day after the movement is done and the old system had been demolish and the new one is put in place, the red will be fighting among themselves about this matter.
Yes, his ‘stage presence’ is better when speaking in Malay but then again he is hardly ever challenged or has challenging questions put to him within the context of a Malay audience.
You will notice that UMNO leaders flounder when they are interviewed by the likes of Aljazeera or the BBC. The only man who has been able to hold his own within these circles has been Mahathir. Mahathir has no qualms being a racist (in his view a necessary evil) hence he speaks of it as a ‘matter of fact’.
Najib’s biggest mistake was to come up with 1Malaysia which is clearly indefensible. It would have been easier to defend it as a concept if not for the attacks from within his party and his inability to defend it.
Yes, one will need to ask APCO – why they allowed this interview to go through. It has Najib in further bad light.
The adage that a house is as strong as its foundation should imply that 1Malaysia should be the foundation (and not the roof) unless Najib sees UMNO as the foundation. The 10MP as a foundation is frankly quite meaningless. On the whole I found the metaphor perplexing.
My concern is that despite his failings on key reforms, the Merdeka Centre poll indicates that his popularity is increasing.
I would put it to the ‘goodies’ that he has been dishing out and a significant number of Malaysians who still rely on leaders to deliver on “bread and butter” issues.
I don’t think anyone should get excited about Kasit’s comments about the need to discuss or “revamp” the monarchy in Thailand.
I don’t believe that Kasit or the Democrats have any intention whatsoever for there to be an open discussion of the monarchy in Thailand. As I’ve said elsewhere, if such a discussion were to take place the most important issue to examine would be the king’s role in the coup and the interventions of the king and his privy councillors in the military and judiciary with the aim of destroying Thaksin.
Of course the Democrats would never allow such an open discussion or revamp to take place because it would be political suicide.
But I think that Kasit can see that the international media (especially the “big guns” that set international media agendas like The Economist, Bloomberg) are now honing in on the monarchy, so he needs to try to deflect this international media attention by pretending that the government has no problem with an open discussion of the monarchy, and that it accepts that the monarchy may need reform.
As the well-known adage goes, it’s the job of the diplomats to “lie for their country”.
My girlfriend is middle class with a decent Bangkok education and although she doesn’t outright support LM she just doesn’t care that people can be locked up for words.
This topic is just about the only thing we argue about and has many times nearly brought our relationship to an end.
Other friends who are also near the top of their fields in Thailand and decently educated also cannot see the problem of this law.
For me this just shows that the propoganda that has been spewed out over many decades is working very nicely.
However, although we in the west have more freedom of speech it is not much different to the way religion can still hold so much sway in supposedly free minded countries.
Help me out here, but if Presidents and Prime Ministers still believe in a sky fairy then what chance have normal middle class Thai educated people got.
The Eric Campbell report was advertised on Australia Network on Monday morning, and according to their TV guide Foreign Correspondent was due to be screened at 18.00 hrs (Thai time) last night (Wednesday). Unfortunately Australia Network chose to re-run an old story on an unrelated topic. I contacted Foreign Correspondent to ask whether the story would be available via Australia Network and received a reply informing me that it would not be shown, owing to “regional sensibilities” and legal reasons. So much for “bringing our world to yours”.
thailand needs fundamental change, they are just unlucky that thailand has not developed like australia, with its system of government, not perfect but much better than theres.Will a new election change anything.Same horse different jockey. Most of the politicans are corrupt, No what most of these third world countries and developing nations need are administrators, to run governemnt till they get there act together.But i think this is just wishful thinking, thailand will just muddle a long, hopefully they will get it all together oneday.
When you did this report, why don’t you also make another report about Taksin to show the world about his stories behind the scene that very exclusive and even the red-shirts who support him doesn’t know before, just like you did in this report. This report is a not fair presentation. I’m asking for your ethics and morals as being a journalist. Have you ever thought about conducing this?
Democracy is fricking real, not some bull-crap system invented by the elite.
Believe me, I have lived half of my 55 year life in Burma, the worst country on this planet, and another half in Australia, the best socialist country in the world, and some considerable period going in and out of Bangkok.
And I sincerely believe that people get the government they deserve, and the Thai people really deserve a better democratic system than they have now.
[…] Readers looking for longer term context may find these two pieces from the New Mandala archive (here and especially here) offer some sense of the historical […]
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War at Khao San
@Hla Oo
I read you and understand your feelings.
sure, comparatively speaking – a person who lived in very oppressed place as Burma, when coming to LESS oppressed – may think that it is a paradise, the best country, etc.
John Pilger though is Aussie himself – and don’t you think he DOES know what he’s talking about ? 😉 (he has many works dedicated to his homeland) Aus also has a fame for long history of oppression of indigenous population (well, yeah – Howard “apologized” to them already, didn’t he ? LOL) for “stolen generations” ; as well as handling immigrants in a very racist way. another thing Pilger mentioned that Aus special forces / army have been (or still continue?) training those very same …. Burmese troops. did you know that ? although they are very vocal at demanding “democracy” in Burma.
so, anyway, it is a huge subject to be debated here. but I agree on the part that Thais (and any other ppl) deserve a better conditions. although should it be a “democracy” or whatever else – I think it is another matter. I rather prefer “somtam-ocracy” 🙂
Reflections on Eric Campbell’s royal report
Thank you Of Course I’m Anonymous.
Actually, now that I think about it, I’m going to get business cards made for this site with the URL and hand them out at protests.
Several comments from other posters were interesting in regards to any discussion of the monarchy in Thailand here at NM. In my opinion, the criticism of the role of monarchy and its use of lese majeste to silence any dissent here in Thailand goes much deeper than whether or not Thailand should have a monarchy or that the monarchy is the source of all ills in Thailand. I have spoken with countless Red Shirts this past month and continue to do so and most, from what I can gather, have no intent of disabusing themselves of this institution. From what I have heard, albeit in very hushed tones, and with nods of approval, is that they feel the monarchy has sided with the Yellow Shirts and that after this current king the monarchy should be placed alongside, not over, the people, where it can be manipulated by the elite to exploit the poor.
Most of these Red Shirt protesters simply will not even mention their king, feeling that he is, like one Red Shirt told me, “untouchable” though those around him can be so “touched.” I’ve been here almost seven years, so I’m not saying all this as some backpacker on vacation on Kaosan Rd. Most of the Thais I have met relate to this monarch as a child relates to a father. It’s emotional.
This is not to say of course that these very same protesters don’t appreciate an open and respectful discussion of the future role of their monarchy. As it is NOTHING can be discussed and this is a tragedy. So great journalism by foreigners is heroic in the sense that it shows that the sky isn’t going to fall down if one criticizes Dad. And that Dad need not be perfect to be loved.
It’s amazing how much more success I’ve had speaking with Thai people using this father/love metaphor. Their guard goes down immediately.
But I digress.
Thus the importance of NM in the wider discussion. The other night I heard a UDD leader mention “Andrew Marshal” on stage at Pan Fah Lila no doubt he was reading from one of his articles, and I thought how great it was for the free exchange of ideas.
Perhaps we are all here playing a little part here, as long as we keep our criticism of the monarchy reasonably civilized. Discussion is what’s needed most now in Thailand.
Najib’s first year in office, Part II
I wouldn’t put too much faith in the Merdeka Centre Poll. With a selective audience in a limited sample size, one can get any statistic. As for Najibs 1Malaysia and GTP initiative, one gets the feeling that its either all talk or he’s has less control over his supporters than Mahathir did. We will never know. If you look at the contradictions that has been spewing out from the DPM and others, you will wonder if they actually understand the concept or simply sabotaging the plan.
Either way, it will take real political will and strenght to pull this off, even if Najib really mean to do good.
From my perspective, Malaysia still has at least 10 years of the “good life” left, with its natural resources. After that, its anybody’s guess.
Kasit – role of the monarchy may be revamped
Aladdin (37), I’m not so sure you are right that the Democrats will all wish to remain a hard-line absolutist court party like the Tories of 17th century England. They are absolutists at present, because of the present King’s great reserve of political capital. Things will be different in the next reign. The new King’s store of political capital will be much smaller, and the new King’s cronies will have less power than those of the last. In the new environment, some among the Democrats will wish to transform the party into a conservative, genuinely constitutional monarchist party like the modern Tories. Surely the more logical of them must even now squirm at the name of their party being such a lie. There must be Democrat MP’s who would aspire to belong to a cabinet whose advice was necessarily taken by the King, rather than being compelled to take orders from someone whose judgement and good name they doubted. The opportunity beckons for the new King to hoist out his father’s cronies in the time-honoured manner, and allow reform of the Privy Council along the lines of modern European constitutional monarchies. He could bring peace to his country and go down in history with a better name than his father. But if he doesn’t have the power or inclination to get rid of the old curmudgeons, the end of the Thai monarchy will surely come.
Eric Campbell on journalistic duty
Did anyone notice the blooper in Erik Jensen’s SMH coverage of Eric Campbell’s report – namely that Chotisak Onsoong did not stand for the “NATIONAL anthem ?
In fact it was the Royal anthem he refused to stand for.
Reflections on Eric Campbell’s royal report
1) This is nothing new in the program and everybody knows it all already, and 2) It’s all rumors anyway, and 3) Only Thais can understand Thai problems, but 4) Anybody that doesn’t tolerate the situation is not “really” Thai, and 5) nobody good could want Thaksin the Evil One in charge again anyway.
Old excuses!
ABC TV on Thai politics
Trojan – Your analogy of religion is a good one. The lack of critical capacity of even of the most educated Thai mind never ceases to amaze me. You’ll find doctors and peasants are as pig-headed as each other when it comes to an open discussion about Thailand. When confronted by anything approaching criticism, their natural instinct is to revert to a childlike and spiteful diatribe spouting the familiar old chant of King, Religion and State.
Modern secular and democratic nations have been successful in part because they have managed to separate church from state. Until Thais from all classes grow up enough to separate their own ‘unholy trinity’ I don’t have much hope for them.
Johnston on Thailand’s royal taboo
Not a *bad* article, and I would expect that *most* red shirts probably would exhibit due reverence if the actual royal anthem were played. However, as most of us here would know, there is nothing royal at all about the (Phibunist) Thai National Anthem played at 8am and 6pm.
I’ve no doubt that most Thais do not bother their pretty little heads with the ironies inherent in having this historical throwback as their national anthem… and probably most do not even have a clue regarding the actual situation in 1939 when said anthem was instituted… but I still imagine that Somchai Everyman would associate this particular anthem with sentiments along the lines of ‘Yay Thais’ and less with the ‘supreme institution’?
The King Never Smiles?
I love my King anyway.
ABC TV on Thai politics
wotdem? – As much as I want to agree with you. However, we are more than ready to fight with people like Thaksin or Veera for that matter, even among the red, they all know that one day after the movement is done and the old system had been demolish and the new one is put in place, the red will be fighting among themselves about this matter.
Najib’s first year in office, Part I
Good day macondo,
You’ve raised some very interesting observations.
Yes, his ‘stage presence’ is better when speaking in Malay but then again he is hardly ever challenged or has challenging questions put to him within the context of a Malay audience.
You will notice that UMNO leaders flounder when they are interviewed by the likes of Aljazeera or the BBC. The only man who has been able to hold his own within these circles has been Mahathir. Mahathir has no qualms being a racist (in his view a necessary evil) hence he speaks of it as a ‘matter of fact’.
Najib’s biggest mistake was to come up with 1Malaysia which is clearly indefensible. It would have been easier to defend it as a concept if not for the attacks from within his party and his inability to defend it.
Yes, one will need to ask APCO – why they allowed this interview to go through. It has Najib in further bad light.
The adage that a house is as strong as its foundation should imply that 1Malaysia should be the foundation (and not the roof) unless Najib sees UMNO as the foundation. The 10MP as a foundation is frankly quite meaningless. On the whole I found the metaphor perplexing.
On all counts – 1Malaysia is a stillborn.
Najib’s first year in office, Part II
Appreciate your comments My2sen,
My concern is that despite his failings on key reforms, the Merdeka Centre poll indicates that his popularity is increasing.
I would put it to the ‘goodies’ that he has been dishing out and a significant number of Malaysians who still rely on leaders to deliver on “bread and butter” issues.
Kasit – role of the monarchy may be revamped
I don’t think anyone should get excited about Kasit’s comments about the need to discuss or “revamp” the monarchy in Thailand.
I don’t believe that Kasit or the Democrats have any intention whatsoever for there to be an open discussion of the monarchy in Thailand. As I’ve said elsewhere, if such a discussion were to take place the most important issue to examine would be the king’s role in the coup and the interventions of the king and his privy councillors in the military and judiciary with the aim of destroying Thaksin.
Of course the Democrats would never allow such an open discussion or revamp to take place because it would be political suicide.
But I think that Kasit can see that the international media (especially the “big guns” that set international media agendas like The Economist, Bloomberg) are now honing in on the monarchy, so he needs to try to deflect this international media attention by pretending that the government has no problem with an open discussion of the monarchy, and that it accepts that the monarchy may need reform.
As the well-known adage goes, it’s the job of the diplomats to “lie for their country”.
ABC TV on Thai politics
My girlfriend is middle class with a decent Bangkok education and although she doesn’t outright support LM she just doesn’t care that people can be locked up for words.
This topic is just about the only thing we argue about and has many times nearly brought our relationship to an end.
Other friends who are also near the top of their fields in Thailand and decently educated also cannot see the problem of this law.
For me this just shows that the propoganda that has been spewed out over many decades is working very nicely.
However, although we in the west have more freedom of speech it is not much different to the way religion can still hold so much sway in supposedly free minded countries.
Help me out here, but if Presidents and Prime Ministers still believe in a sky fairy then what chance have normal middle class Thai educated people got.
ABC TV on Thai politics
The Eric Campbell report was advertised on Australia Network on Monday morning, and according to their TV guide Foreign Correspondent was due to be screened at 18.00 hrs (Thai time) last night (Wednesday). Unfortunately Australia Network chose to re-run an old story on an unrelated topic. I contacted Foreign Correspondent to ask whether the story would be available via Australia Network and received a reply informing me that it would not be shown, owing to “regional sensibilities” and legal reasons. So much for “bringing our world to yours”.
Johnston on Thailand’s royal taboo
One may read the full article without subscribing by opening it from google:
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f6607924-47e2-11df-b998-00144feab49a.html
Reflections on Eric Campbell’s royal report
thailand needs fundamental change, they are just unlucky that thailand has not developed like australia, with its system of government, not perfect but much better than theres.Will a new election change anything.Same horse different jockey. Most of the politicans are corrupt, No what most of these third world countries and developing nations need are administrators, to run governemnt till they get there act together.But i think this is just wishful thinking, thailand will just muddle a long, hopefully they will get it all together oneday.
ABC TV on Thai politics
When you did this report, why don’t you also make another report about Taksin to show the world about his stories behind the scene that very exclusive and even the red-shirts who support him doesn’t know before, just like you did in this report. This report is a not fair presentation. I’m asking for your ethics and morals as being a journalist. Have you ever thought about conducing this?
War at Khao San
MediaWar,
Democracy is fricking real, not some bull-crap system invented by the elite.
Believe me, I have lived half of my 55 year life in Burma, the worst country on this planet, and another half in Australia, the best socialist country in the world, and some considerable period going in and out of Bangkok.
And I sincerely believe that people get the government they deserve, and the Thai people really deserve a better democratic system than they have now.
Putting the genie back in the bottle
[…] Readers looking for longer term context may find these two pieces from the New Mandala archive (here and especially here) offer some sense of the historical […]