I rather agree with Hla Oo – because according to specialist (guy quoted in Nation’s article about) said protesters were killed by high power rifle. and velocity of M107 is certainly higher than TAR-21.
besides, 0.5 caliber shells were found in plenty on the sight, can be seen on many photos and few videos.
the photos on Pantip do not prove your point. they just base their version on the basis that red guard has over shoulder this Tar21 – however that same guard on other photo has actually several weapons, – and it is obvious that they were just carrying what they’ve seized from soldiers and soldiers had few different kind of weapons, as here for example protester is holding.
“The “terrorists” the prime minister said instigated the bloodshed on Saturday night are malcontent soldiers intent on bringing down the government, UDD leader Natthawut Saikua said on Tuesday…
“The terrorists the government claimed [were there] are soldiers who do not accept the current administration, causing conflict within the army,” Mr Natthawut said. “They used the opportunity on Saturday to create unrest.” He did not identify them, or offer to help with their arrest.”
it makes me stick to my opinion that Sat event involved more players than 3 (protesters, gov forces, “3rd hand”).
in other article said : “The UDD alsodemanded t he government arrest the ‘terrorists’ that Prime Minister Abhisit claimed that they were among the red-shirts on Saturday.”
I think it is a good point: WHY so far no one has been arrested by gov. ? in past couple of months there were many cases of bombings, shooting at banks etc. – seemingly someone has purposely been preparing the ground for “terrorists” version. however NO ONE so far has been arrested and charged. so, if gov. prefers to push on this “terrorists” version – then it is only logical that they should catch them and prove their version, because after all that would certainly be a credit to their words. otherwise merely to TALK but not produce anything substantial to prove their words – doesn’t help gov.
Thairath went in details and reported five protesters (Sawat, Yutthana, Wasan, Ampol, and Praisom) died because of brain trauma from high velocity gun shots… Other three men (Tawatchai, Charoon, and an identified Thai man) were shot in the chest-abdominal areas (entry: chest, puncture lungs, a liver and main arteries) it was unclear some bullets could be recovered from those bodies. A man died of personal respiratory failure.
I don’t know how objective (neutral) this newspaper is, ans especially the doctors & autopsy specialists (one quoted on Nation is from Defense Ministry) – thus I do not subscribe to the version that these people were killed from behind. but then, even if they were – it is not a big deal to position snipers well in advance especially in such a way so that to be able later implicate the red-shirts themselves, or, as now the preferred gov. version is – “terrorists”. it doesn’t really matter for a sniper where from to shoot – from behind, front, side or even from above.
BTW this blog also mentions TAR-21 (I guess the blogger also got it from Pantip), however unlike Tarrin she doesn’t claim with certainty that these people were killed with TAR-21, but says: “Weapon sightingincludedTavor Tar 21” – in other words, among all the different weapons seen on photos and videos someone on Pantip has excitedly recognized TAR-21 and placed the whole detailed information sheet about it there π
what I wonder about is: does Nation have some basis for placing photo of M107 in their article, or was it just as much guess as on Pantip forum.
might see the role of the revered monarchy revamped with greater involvement in the political process of the impoverished rural poor, who are up in arms against the nationβs military-backed government.
I think he is inferred that the palace might do something to subside the poor’s rage on the military-backed government, but I doubt no one will listen anymore, considered the royal tied to the military and their act of full support for the same people who responsible for the crack down last year and this year.
All credit to Kasit for giving you a straight answer lacking from the other FCCT speakers, but it hardly makes up for the man’s character flaws. I don’t mean his politics but rather his appalling smugness and self-conceit – a major handicap in someone who professes to be Thailand’s senior diplomat.
Even if you don’t speak Thai, I suggest you watch his performance (no other word for it) to his PAD audience – and you’ll see what I mean. As a Thai-speaker will tell you, his foul language about Thaksin and Hun Sen is definitely not something you’d want your mother to hear. [ mms://tv.manager.co.th/videoclip/11News1/Footage/Kasit_151008_H.wmv ]
His “excellent food and music” gaffe in front of an audience of foreign journalists likewise betrays just how crass his judgment is. He generally chooses to speak without notes or just from bullet points rather than from a prepared text. Nothing inherently wrong in that – unless you are as prone to putting both feet in your mouth as he is. In fact, as is clear from the complete audio context, he was attempting to make a comparison between the PAD airport occupation and the then ongoing Greek riots – pointing up the good-natured atmosphere of one compared with the mayhem of the other. Of course, his choice of words about such a contentious event – and to that particular audience – has deservedly become notorious.
“They do not even realize that it is not mainly the poor who are organized by the UDD”
Yes. Nobody has taken trouble to even ask who are the angry young men appearing so often in pictures from the front lines. These are not indeed the rural poor and certainly not uneducated. Many, I think, are vocational school students or graduates. Some had been soldiers, etc.
A group of “Ronins” provoked the soldiers to overreact, they also blew up their commanding officers. In the ensuing chaotic shootings they picked up targets among the red shirts and killed them when they least suspected, to provoke more anger from the protesters and give red leaders a reason to blame the army for killing innocent people.
Another scenario is at least two groups of snipers in the same buildings, one deployed by the army to kill ordinary protesters and TV reporters in cold blood and on government orders, and another, the virtuous Ronins, targeting only the unsuspecting soldiers, and there was also the gun toting red crowd below who spotted the government team and drove them off by spraying bullets everywhere.
Pick your favorite.
Four out of five captured soldiers were hiding in their vehicle and came out during the lull in the battle, unaware that the area was under the red control.
There was one other mysterious soldier who, according to Jaded on Absolutely Bangkok, was wearing a sniper mesh around his neck and red guards leading him carried some sort of a sniper version of M16, presumably confiscated from him, too.
They didn’t parade that dude on the stage, though, they instead quietly released him without any fuss, as if it turned out he was working for their team.
I can’t think why they would forgo the massive PR boost they could get from capturing a government sniper.
“We can also hope for genuine reform, which wiser heads within the monarchy are no doubt considering. ”
I very much doubt it. I suspect what is exercising their minds at the moment is how they are going to stay the monarchy and keep *their* money. All $US37,000,000,000 of it.
“I donβt think you should bad-mouth Kasit that way.”
Why not Chris? this guy makes an art form out of abusing people who don’t agree with him. Live by the sword… if you look at all the blogs that comment on his inanities, they all think as I do. But there you go, our perception is our reality.
The other guy you mention… didn’t he have to resign recently under a cloud of suspected corruption? Archetypal Thai pooyay – crooked and dishonest and with his snout in the trough. You give your respect to some odd fellows to respect my friend.
If I may make a suggestion – respond to what you think rather than respond to wheat you feel, it makes for better judgement. This Kasit guy is a clown, who will only ever do what he thinks is best for him and bugger Thailand. Even if you do respect him him.
Untolerable Thai#8 –
I was n’t particularly praising Kasit :
Simply pointed out that he directly answered my question at the FCCT (this was actually a couple of years ago, BEFORE the 2008 airport seizures – sorry for my lapse in memory).
“By now Khun Kasit might regret this, and realise that was a mistake.β
This is just your opinion!”
I did say “MIGHT” – so of course it is only my opinion.
But I do think in Thailand’s current polarised climate, respecting each others opinion is a worthwhile objective.
Spockusse#9 – “honourable” conservative.
He’s honourable because he’s been Thailand’s ambassador to severeal countries, including major ones such as Japan.
Yes Kasit’s fuller, more civilised commitment to democracy is something to be desired.
It would make him even more honourable indeed.
But in Western democracies conservatives like him – though not as democratic as we might like – are still honourable members of the democratic community.
Hla Oo,
You’re getting carried away with yourself, making assumptions based on smoke.
You toss it out that “maybe” the shooter was an American.
We could speculate until the cows come home, but the fact is, you have nothing to base your assumption on.
If they weren’t proven dead you could surmise that “maybe” the deed was done by Lee Harvey Oswald or James Earl Ray, two noted American marksmen.
By the way, shooting someone in the melon in the confines of a city is major overkill. The bullet would have gone through anyone behind the victim – and on and on. More likely it was a 5.56 or a .308.
Some of your questions (a social movement approach might add some more) repeat what Danny Unger has said in the Asia Times (wonder why he risked his academic credibility by publishing in a PAD paper). I am sure that you have seen his article at
In fact, I would also like to see more information about these issues. Yet, they need research, which is slow in coming. One source is
Chairat Charoensin-o-larn. 2010. βRedrawing the Thai Political Space: The Red Shirted Movement.β Paper, Rural-Urban Networks and Transitions in Asia: Re-spatializing Cultural and Political Imaginaries. Jointly organized by the Asian Urban-isms Cluster of the Asia Research Institute and the Cities Cluster of the Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences, National University of Singapore, 25-26 February 2010. 15 pp.
Attachak, also of Thammasat, has been writing about the informal sector being a recuiting ground for the UDD.
Yukti, an anthropologist at TU, has been doing research on the reds. See the article by Pravit Rojanaphruk. 2010. βThe reds are emerging active citizens, anthropologist says.β The Nation, March 24, 2010.
It would be good if those who have been doing substantial research on the UDD could come forward and inform us of their work, and its results.
“Impoverished rural poor” >> It is more like who did he mean. This has been a very important cliche in the Thai elite discourse. The Bangkok Post of 14 April quoted Prawase Wasi as having said, “The poor who feel inferior and lack opportunities will continue to join the UDD movement unless the gap between the rich and poor is narrowed and the unfair social structure is revised.” They do not even realize that it is not mainly the poor who are organized by the UDD (and that there are not enough poor in Thailand to make them a major force, and thus a major target group for socio-political reform), and they also mix up the issues of “lack of opportunity” with the issue of income distribution. As if people were motivated by a knowledge of this gap.
I don’t think he is really that ” honourable conservative” maybe just conservative is understandable.
How can you say that one who doesn’t believe in democracy speaks language of democracy and blames other people about misuse of democracy being honourable one.
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Kasit – role of the monarchy may be revamped
I never pay much attention on what this guy Kasit says, but really wonder if it has ever dawned on him that Thailand is not centre of the universe and that his “divine mission” is not necessary considered “divine” for the rest of the world. He is being angry with the world. http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/174565/thai-fm-slams-international-community-over-crisis
ABC TV on Thai politics
Dear Lord Buddha, they played THAT video clip!
ABC TV on Thai politics
I’m in Bangkok at the moment, how can I watch this in Thailand, will it be available online ?
War at Khao San
@Hla Oo
thanks for interesting details !
@Tarrin
I rather agree with Hla Oo – because according to specialist (guy quoted in Nation’s article about) said protesters were killed by high power rifle. and velocity of M107 is certainly higher than TAR-21.
besides, 0.5 caliber shells were found in plenty on the sight, can be seen on many photos and few videos.
the photos on Pantip do not prove your point. they just base their version on the basis that red guard has over shoulder this Tar21 – however that same guard on other photo has actually several weapons, – and it is obvious that they were just carrying what they’ve seized from soldiers and soldiers had few different kind of weapons, as here for example protester is holding.
now, this is an interesting quote which provides additional clue :
it makes me stick to my opinion that Sat event involved more players than 3 (protesters, gov forces, “3rd hand”).
in other article said : “The UDD also demanded t he government arrest the ‘terrorists’ that Prime Minister Abhisit claimed that they were among the red-shirts on Saturday.”
I think it is a good point: WHY so far no one has been arrested by gov. ? in past couple of months there were many cases of bombings, shooting at banks etc. – seemingly someone has purposely been preparing the ground for “terrorists” version. however NO ONE so far has been arrested and charged. so, if gov. prefers to push on this “terrorists” version – then it is only logical that they should catch them and prove their version, because after all that would certainly be a credit to their words. otherwise merely to TALK but not produce anything substantial to prove their words – doesn’t help gov.
here is quoted Thairath newspaper :
I don’t know how objective (neutral) this newspaper is, ans especially the doctors & autopsy specialists (one quoted on Nation is from Defense Ministry) – thus I do not subscribe to the version that these people were killed from behind. but then, even if they were – it is not a big deal to position snipers well in advance especially in such a way so that to be able later implicate the red-shirts themselves, or, as now the preferred gov. version is – “terrorists”. it doesn’t really matter for a sniper where from to shoot – from behind, front, side or even from above.
BTW this blog also mentions TAR-21 (I guess the blogger also got it from Pantip), however unlike Tarrin she doesn’t claim with certainty that these people were killed with TAR-21, but says: “Weapon sighting included Tavor Tar 21” – in other words, among all the different weapons seen on photos and videos someone on Pantip has excitedly recognized TAR-21 and placed the whole detailed information sheet about it there π
what I wonder about is: does Nation have some basis for placing photo of M107 in their article, or was it just as much guess as on Pantip forum.
ABC TV on Thai politics
Fantastic report.
Kasit – role of the monarchy may be revamped
I think the whole sentence.
might see the role of the revered monarchy revamped with greater involvement in the political process of the impoverished rural poor, who are up in arms against the nationβs military-backed government.
I think he is inferred that the palace might do something to subside the poor’s rage on the military-backed government, but I doubt no one will listen anymore, considered the royal tied to the military and their act of full support for the same people who responsible for the crack down last year and this year.
Kasit – role of the monarchy may be revamped
@ Chris Beale
All credit to Kasit for giving you a straight answer lacking from the other FCCT speakers, but it hardly makes up for the man’s character flaws. I don’t mean his politics but rather his appalling smugness and self-conceit – a major handicap in someone who professes to be Thailand’s senior diplomat.
Even if you don’t speak Thai, I suggest you watch his performance (no other word for it) to his PAD audience – and you’ll see what I mean. As a Thai-speaker will tell you, his foul language about Thaksin and Hun Sen is definitely not something you’d want your mother to hear. [ mms://tv.manager.co.th/videoclip/11News1/Footage/Kasit_151008_H.wmv ]
His “excellent food and music” gaffe in front of an audience of foreign journalists likewise betrays just how crass his judgment is. He generally chooses to speak without notes or just from bullet points rather than from a prepared text. Nothing inherently wrong in that – unless you are as prone to putting both feet in your mouth as he is. In fact, as is clear from the complete audio context, he was attempting to make a comparison between the PAD airport occupation and the then ongoing Greek riots – pointing up the good-natured atmosphere of one compared with the mayhem of the other. Of course, his choice of words about such a contentious event – and to that particular audience – has deservedly become notorious.
Kasit – role of the monarchy may be revamped
Is anyone charging Kasit with LM ?
His comments certainly seem borderline LM to me.
Kasit – role of the monarchy may be revamped
“They do not even realize that it is not mainly the poor who are organized by the UDD”
Yes. Nobody has taken trouble to even ask who are the angry young men appearing so often in pictures from the front lines. These are not indeed the rural poor and certainly not uneducated. Many, I think, are vocational school students or graduates. Some had been soldiers, etc.
War at Khao San
Two scenarios are emerging here:
A group of “Ronins” provoked the soldiers to overreact, they also blew up their commanding officers. In the ensuing chaotic shootings they picked up targets among the red shirts and killed them when they least suspected, to provoke more anger from the protesters and give red leaders a reason to blame the army for killing innocent people.
Another scenario is at least two groups of snipers in the same buildings, one deployed by the army to kill ordinary protesters and TV reporters in cold blood and on government orders, and another, the virtuous Ronins, targeting only the unsuspecting soldiers, and there was also the gun toting red crowd below who spotted the government team and drove them off by spraying bullets everywhere.
Pick your favorite.
Four out of five captured soldiers were hiding in their vehicle and came out during the lull in the battle, unaware that the area was under the red control.
There was one other mysterious soldier who, according to Jaded on Absolutely Bangkok, was wearing a sniper mesh around his neck and red guards leading him carried some sort of a sniper version of M16, presumably confiscated from him, too.
They didn’t parade that dude on the stage, though, they instead quietly released him without any fuss, as if it turned out he was working for their team.
I can’t think why they would forgo the massive PR boost they could get from capturing a government sniper.
Kasit – role of the monarchy may be revamped
@ R.N. England:
“We can also hope for genuine reform, which wiser heads within the monarchy are no doubt considering. ”
I very much doubt it. I suspect what is exercising their minds at the moment is how they are going to stay the monarchy and keep *their* money. All $US37,000,000,000 of it.
Kasit – role of the monarchy may be revamped
@ Chris Beale
“I donβt think you should bad-mouth Kasit that way.”
Why not Chris? this guy makes an art form out of abusing people who don’t agree with him. Live by the sword… if you look at all the blogs that comment on his inanities, they all think as I do. But there you go, our perception is our reality.
The other guy you mention… didn’t he have to resign recently under a cloud of suspected corruption? Archetypal Thai pooyay – crooked and dishonest and with his snout in the trough. You give your respect to some odd fellows to respect my friend.
If I may make a suggestion – respond to what you think rather than respond to wheat you feel, it makes for better judgement. This Kasit guy is a clown, who will only ever do what he thinks is best for him and bugger Thailand. Even if you do respect him him.
Kasit – role of the monarchy may be revamped
Untolerable Thai#8 –
I was n’t particularly praising Kasit :
Simply pointed out that he directly answered my question at the FCCT (this was actually a couple of years ago, BEFORE the 2008 airport seizures – sorry for my lapse in memory).
“By now Khun Kasit might regret this, and realise that was a mistake.β
This is just your opinion!”
I did say “MIGHT” – so of course it is only my opinion.
But I do think in Thailand’s current polarised climate, respecting each others opinion is a worthwhile objective.
Spockusse#9 – “honourable” conservative.
He’s honourable because he’s been Thailand’s ambassador to severeal countries, including major ones such as Japan.
Yes Kasit’s fuller, more civilised commitment to democracy is something to be desired.
It would make him even more honourable indeed.
But in Western democracies conservatives like him – though not as democratic as we might like – are still honourable members of the democratic community.
War at Khao San
Hla Oo,
You’re getting carried away with yourself, making assumptions based on smoke.
You toss it out that “maybe” the shooter was an American.
We could speculate until the cows come home, but the fact is, you have nothing to base your assumption on.
If they weren’t proven dead you could surmise that “maybe” the deed was done by Lee Harvey Oswald or James Earl Ray, two noted American marksmen.
By the way, shooting someone in the melon in the confines of a city is major overkill. The bullet would have gone through anyone behind the victim – and on and on. More likely it was a 5.56 or a .308.
Kasit – role of the monarchy may be revamped
Sorry to be slightly off topic.
Politicians-to-be please watch the below. “Intelligence”, a programme on Voice TV, has just broadcasted one of its best.
http://www.voicetv.co.th/content/11179/6Ρβ£ΠΡβΠΡβΠ³ΡββΡβΠ½ΡβΠΡβ£ΠΡββΡβΠ²ΡβΠ«ΡβΠ³ΡββΡβΠΡββΡβΠΡβΠ©ΡβΠ΅ΡβΠΡβΠ±ΡβΠ₯Ρββ€βΡβΠ³ΡββΡβΠ ΡβΠͺΡββΡβΠ΅ΡβΠ₯Ρβ£ΠΡβΠ½ΡβΠΡβΠ³ΡββΡβΠͺΡβΠ¬Ρββ€ΡβΠ€ΡβΠΡβΠ½ΡβΠͺβ
Kasit – role of the monarchy may be revamped
If a Red Shirt had made the same comment, it would be all over the newsand the yellows would be calling for them to be lynched…
ABC TV on Thai politics
Rick #6
Some of your questions (a social movement approach might add some more) repeat what Danny Unger has said in the Asia Times (wonder why he risked his academic credibility by publishing in a PAD paper). I am sure that you have seen his article at
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LD07Ae02.html
In fact, I would also like to see more information about these issues. Yet, they need research, which is slow in coming. One source is
Chairat Charoensin-o-larn. 2010. βRedrawing the Thai Political Space: The Red Shirted Movement.β Paper, Rural-Urban Networks and Transitions in Asia: Re-spatializing Cultural and Political Imaginaries. Jointly organized by the Asian Urban-isms Cluster of the Asia Research Institute and the Cities Cluster of the Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences, National University of Singapore, 25-26 February 2010. 15 pp.
Attachak, also of Thammasat, has been writing about the informal sector being a recuiting ground for the UDD.
Yukti, an anthropologist at TU, has been doing research on the reds. See the article by Pravit Rojanaphruk. 2010. βThe reds are emerging active citizens, anthropologist says.β The Nation, March 24, 2010.
It would be good if those who have been doing substantial research on the UDD could come forward and inform us of their work, and its results.
Kasit – role of the monarchy may be revamped
“Impoverished rural poor” >> It is more like who did he mean. This has been a very important cliche in the Thai elite discourse. The Bangkok Post of 14 April quoted Prawase Wasi as having said, “The poor who feel inferior and lack opportunities will continue to join the UDD movement unless the gap between the rich and poor is narrowed and the unfair social structure is revised.” They do not even realize that it is not mainly the poor who are organized by the UDD (and that there are not enough poor in Thailand to make them a major force, and thus a major target group for socio-political reform), and they also mix up the issues of “lack of opportunity” with the issue of income distribution. As if people were motivated by a knowledge of this gap.
Kasit – role of the monarchy may be revamped
I don’t think he is really that ” honourable conservative” maybe just conservative is understandable.
How can you say that one who doesn’t believe in democracy speaks language of democracy and blames other people about misuse of democracy being honourable one.
Kasit – role of the monarchy may be revamped
IMHO, he means to go back to Abs. Mon.
To Chris Beale #5
If Anonymous#1 shouldn’t bad-mouth Kasit, then you shouldn’t praise him too!
How do you know that “By now Khun Kasit might regret this, and realise that was a mistake.”
This is just your opinion!