Yoda – I’m too tired to write anything too long, but let me say why many people here ignored you, it was because people like you always said the same thing without even considered what is actually happening, furthermore, we all dont care about Thaksin anymore, he’s an old news.
Hear hear Pharris….
Justin, the facts of your ‘on the ground’ report is enlightening and appreciated… However the sensationalist imagery and emotive language in your account draws skepticism about the jpurnalistic value of your account… honestly WHY would anyone not supporting the political ideology put themselves in harm’s way by heading to these protest areas after ‘violence’ has been reported or even warned. (Unless you are a true journalist of course). And this fact alone begs me to question the soundness of your rationalisations and conclusions. Notwithstanding that the aftermath of any scene of violence anywhere (a football match or otherwise) should evoke the emotional response evident in your report – the lack of true and researched analysis and subsequent assumptions and conclusions are just not worthy of journalistic publication.
The greatest sadness of this current situation is the fact that the impoverished of Thailand whether adorned in yellow or red are merely pawns in a larger battle for personal wealth and power for a few elite. Propaganda (media control) and inciteful commentary being the tools of choice. After all – were any leaders harmed? Are they really that well protected? (Hardly they were in clear view of me on stage when I headed down a few days ago). It’s all ‘by design’. So why the elite can’t simply ‘jockey for power’ in boardrooms rather than inciting and manipulating ‘the people’ is criminal. How is it that a full stage, with marquees, and a veritable carnivale atmosphere can be established in the heart of Bangkok with absoloutley no intervention by police??? Because it is all part of the way that ‘political play’ occurs in Thailand.
How is it that a demonstration can be declared as ‘peaceful’ by protest leaders whilst they continue to emphasise ‘the lack of weaponry’ by their protesters as compared with the police/army, yet their demonstrators hold molotov cocktails, wooden sticks, hurl bottles and eggs at police? (oh…. and grenades!)
It is hot and steamy on the streets, their are folk who qualify as the ‘poor of Thailand’ in this group, they have been sleeping on the pavements for the last week, they have had PAs blasting noise at them consistently for the last week about how they have been wronged, they are part of a ‘group’…. they belong… this is ‘mob mentality’ poised – “Just give them a reason”…. there’s your disaster – control and manipulation.
…and who will win? Truly … who will win? Whilst leaders of whatever ideology continue to line their own pockets.
chris beale #74, thanks a lot for educating me. it was priceless.
leeyiakun #75, i thought this was a forum where people post their opinions, i am terribly sorry if this is exclusively news.
tiptop #76, thaksin bankrolls the whole red movement and you are telling me reds don’t care about thaksin???? i would be very disappointed if i am someone who bankrolls the whole thing. i would not say more.
tarrin #78, thaksin is the root cause of this mayhem taking place in thailand right this minute.
Bh V #77, if i can’t have an intelligent argument/debate where every side can present the facts to determine the right/wrong of a case presented by neutrals, i don’t suppose it is a fair or proper debate. thus, i am leaving this forum and would not make any more comments.
if any of you have any qualms about what i have said here, my email is [email protected]
You seem to possess a highly sophisticated political mind. I have no way of telling whether it is with or without the intake of some alcoholic beverages…
Like all good satire, it’s uncomfortably close to the real thing. Sad to say, that real thing is not hard to find; for example, take a look at the comment forums of Bangkok Post online and The Nation’s bed-mate – ThaiVisa. Believe it or not, the posters there are not joking…..
“As for “third element’ -the M79 attack that killed a colonel/wounded a maj general overseeing the operations is prime cause of my suspicion.” From http://twitter.com/tulsathit
When I left the Internet shop in my soi yesterday evening, there was an Australian living here sitting on the steps of a shop with a glass of beer. He uttered, “Now, finally something positive has happened.” My response of “Are nine dead positive?” earned me the politically sophisticated statement of “These fukin’ reds, kill them all.”
“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty
-Thomas Jefferson”
The present Yellows shirt government and its propaganda machine, the Yellow media, are tyrants.
Nearly all media outlets in Thailand are under Yellow/Army control or influence.
Luckily Thailand is full of tourists with camera’s and video equipment, otherwise the truth would not get out. I have seen a more “free” press in Burma than presently is in Thailand.
Btw, the Army chief should appear in TV soon demanding that the PM step down. Why ? Because, the Army chief did so to former PM Somchai for his police’s “brutal actions” against the yellow shirts on 7 October 2008, resulting on the deaths of two PAD members and injuries of many protesters.
The Army chief’s failure to do so would certainly be interpreted as double standards (sorry sir).
Regarding the empty portrait frames, I would point out that Princess Sirindhorn’s birthday is April 2nd and I have seen numerous pics and clips of street scenes recently which prominently feature her portrait.
While not discounting that portraits of HRH and/or HMK may have been removed “due to respect (concern they might get peppered by bullets and flying debris….”, it’s also possible that they were just in mid-changeover and overtaken by events.
Justin, per your account:
1. “I then began moving through the crowd (which by then had expanded to at least 50 000 in the immediate vicinity alone) toward Democracy Monument” How do you know it was ‘at least 50,000? How do you go about estimating crowd size?
2. “A column of Armoured Personnel Carriers extending into one of the side streets. Swarming all over them were hundreds of red shirts, who were literally tearing them to pieces with their bare hands.” Really? Human beings tearing apart armoured vehicles with their bare hands? Wonderful imagery but a bit fantastical?
3. “By that time, rumours were spreading like wildfire that a coup and crackdown by the hardliners was imminent, so we decided it was time to go home. ” Hardliners? You mean the Thai government whom the Thai Supreme Court had declared had within its constitutional power to declare a state of emergency? Being one with the people. though, feels good, doesn’t it?
4. “The spots in which people had been killed had been transformed into shrines, fenced off, already littered with money, food and other offerings, and with Red Shirt storytellers on hand to relate to the sightseers the epic tale of their final hours.” Wonderful way to glorify death and sacrifice. Wow, wish I were there to experience it!
Your story was a breathless account. Not sure it it was meant for a political rally (of the already converted) or uncoloured reporting of what’s going on. For the latter, I’ll stick to AP, Reuters, and the like.
In the past, such as in the 14 Oct 1973 student uprising or the May 1992 Bloodbath, a PM whose actions caused bloodshed would be asked to step down. I am not sure this time because maybe the casualties (18 people dead, over 800 injured) are not much compared to the two incidents.
Any PM from any democratic country would step down without being asked during the current situation but this Oxford-educated PM is different because he is there to fulfill a group of people’s mission, not his own. He may decide to stay no matter how many people have died or will die in the streets.
There are unconfirmed reports from “watermelon soldiers” that a second operation to flush out the reds from Phan Fa will start soon this Sunday afternoon. Let us wait and see because these are not confirmed.
I guess I am the one being accused by Suzie Wong of being a part of K. Abhisit’s dirty operations. This saddens me and makes me realize there is no point arguing with you here.
I have no allegiance with any party or group. I am US born but my father is from Singburi and my mother is from Payao. my roots are far from elite and rather close to the red shirts. Don’t accuse me the way you do. The misinformation you try to spread is an insult to thinkng minds. There is a reason why Thaksin cannot enter countries like the US, UK, etc. There is a reason he was found unfit to own a premier league football club. The reasons why he held onto power are different from K. Abhisit’s. They are like night and day. Please stop accusing me. Today is already a sad day beyond belief. There is nothing wrong with wanting investigations to uncover the truth. There is nothing wrong with wanting justice and peace for more than just one group that is misinformed and exploited. Please stop. It really has gone on far too long.
“…he massive golden banner with [H]is face that usually hangs across the face of one of the buildings had been replaced by a purple one with a with [H]is daughter on it.”
Would not read too much into this. Think it was just to mark her birthday on 2nd April.
Yoda, Abhisit holed up in a barrack to issue his statement. – FACT.
His government was set up in a barrack, wan’t it? Somchai tried to call on the army for help, they didn’t come, yet they did for Abhisit. – FACT.
No one installed him? he didn’t came to power by majority of ppl’s votes, did he? The other party had to be dissolved first. – FACT.
So many facts, that you seem to be ignorant of. Is this your first time on a independent news site? Because you seemed to be getting your information elsewhere, and there are glaring HOLES in them.
——————-
Pharris, wait for it, all the players haven’t come out yet. At least not the MOST important one anyhow.
I urged anyone who wish to know more about the land of (not so much) smiles to read Paul Handley’s infamous book. It’ll fill in the blanks on the events that has happened, and the pattern will make sense somewhat.
So, making any conclusion now is too rash, and a bit naive. The main player isn’t even here yet!
Roberto Marsalis, I urge you to study our history. And to find that the writer of this report speaks the truth. The hint is there, only you need some background to understands it.
The problem in this country didn’t just started over night. It has been here for a LONG time.
As the writer said, wouldn’t want to run into LM, would we? So I’ll stop here.
What is the end game for both sides?
A compromise in which new elections are held within 6 months (with O preconditions on either side) seems a fair and rational outcome that will avoid bloodshed and chaos. And while everyone is interested in the streets, no one’s asking about the budget. That seems an awfully important political issue to get out of the way before either side contemplate new elections.
Is such a compromise possible?
The Red Shirts are riding a wave of momentum and are in no mood to negotiate. They feel they have the upper hand after two successive ‘wins’ in two days. They’ve humiliated the government and feel they’ve splintered the military. They are most likely wrong. The military/police will soon come down on them with a fury so strong that red will not only be the color of their shirts but the color of their decaying corpses. If the Red Shirt leaders know what’s good for them, now is the time to negotiate. Don’t believe the hype.
What’s the likely outcome?
A military and police crackdown of a sort that’s not been seen since the 1980s. The Red Shirt will overplay their hands, bouyed by positive press coverage. The government will be delegimitized by its impotent response to the protests but will hold on until the next elections. The UDD will lose any effective leadership. Both will lose the next elections and a new alliance of military and Bangkok business elites (sans royalists?) will restore order without any meaningful reforms.
Moral of the story?
Farmers and country folks alike, now is the time for your leaders to negotiate while they have the upper hand. Support negotiations and don’t give in to the euphoria of “People Power.” Look where it got the Philippines–nowhere. Democrats, a little power sharing with the country bumpkins will do the country good. Avoiding bloodshed should be every Thai’s top priority.
Anything else?
Beware the vigilantes. If I were a Bangkok resident, I’d be mighty pissed at the recent disruptions. I might team up with my fellow neighbors and business owners and go after these protesters who have usurped my city and my business for their own political agenda. That’s a powderkeg that’s about to explode. Watch out.
Professor Jim Taylor, thank you for your insights. People who are pulling string behind Aphisit and Aphisit himself have arranged a team of psychological operation to conduct deny and deceit here in NM. I am sorry that you are encountering Aphisit’s dirty operation.
Aphisit is an untrustworthy, р╕Ыр╕ер╕┤р╣Йр╕Щр╕Ыр╕ер╣Йр╕нр╕Щ, person. Aphisit himself knows full well that in a fair game he will never be elected; a greedy man, Aphisit, simply has no shame to play dirty tricks in order to cling on to power. Blood and death has no meaning to a person with no conscience like Aphisit.
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War at Khao San
Yoda – I’m too tired to write anything too long, but let me say why many people here ignored you, it was because people like you always said the same thing without even considered what is actually happening, furthermore, we all dont care about Thaksin anymore, he’s an old news.
The scene at Phan Fa
Hear hear Pharris….
Justin, the facts of your ‘on the ground’ report is enlightening and appreciated… However the sensationalist imagery and emotive language in your account draws skepticism about the jpurnalistic value of your account… honestly WHY would anyone not supporting the political ideology put themselves in harm’s way by heading to these protest areas after ‘violence’ has been reported or even warned. (Unless you are a true journalist of course). And this fact alone begs me to question the soundness of your rationalisations and conclusions. Notwithstanding that the aftermath of any scene of violence anywhere (a football match or otherwise) should evoke the emotional response evident in your report – the lack of true and researched analysis and subsequent assumptions and conclusions are just not worthy of journalistic publication.
The greatest sadness of this current situation is the fact that the impoverished of Thailand whether adorned in yellow or red are merely pawns in a larger battle for personal wealth and power for a few elite. Propaganda (media control) and inciteful commentary being the tools of choice. After all – were any leaders harmed? Are they really that well protected? (Hardly they were in clear view of me on stage when I headed down a few days ago). It’s all ‘by design’. So why the elite can’t simply ‘jockey for power’ in boardrooms rather than inciting and manipulating ‘the people’ is criminal. How is it that a full stage, with marquees, and a veritable carnivale atmosphere can be established in the heart of Bangkok with absoloutley no intervention by police??? Because it is all part of the way that ‘political play’ occurs in Thailand.
How is it that a demonstration can be declared as ‘peaceful’ by protest leaders whilst they continue to emphasise ‘the lack of weaponry’ by their protesters as compared with the police/army, yet their demonstrators hold molotov cocktails, wooden sticks, hurl bottles and eggs at police? (oh…. and grenades!)
It is hot and steamy on the streets, their are folk who qualify as the ‘poor of Thailand’ in this group, they have been sleeping on the pavements for the last week, they have had PAs blasting noise at them consistently for the last week about how they have been wronged, they are part of a ‘group’…. they belong… this is ‘mob mentality’ poised – “Just give them a reason”…. there’s your disaster – control and manipulation.
…and who will win? Truly … who will win? Whilst leaders of whatever ideology continue to line their own pockets.
Crackdown in Bangkok – after 8 PM
Detailed account by Nirmal Ghosh here: http://blogs.straitstimes.com/2010/4/11/spiral-of-violence
Crackdown in Bangkok – after 8 PM
chris beale #74, thanks a lot for educating me. it was priceless.
leeyiakun #75, i thought this was a forum where people post their opinions, i am terribly sorry if this is exclusively news.
tiptop #76, thaksin bankrolls the whole red movement and you are telling me reds don’t care about thaksin???? i would be very disappointed if i am someone who bankrolls the whole thing. i would not say more.
tarrin #78, thaksin is the root cause of this mayhem taking place in thailand right this minute.
Bh V #77, if i can’t have an intelligent argument/debate where every side can present the facts to determine the right/wrong of a case presented by neutrals, i don’t suppose it is a fair or proper debate. thus, i am leaving this forum and would not make any more comments.
if any of you have any qualms about what i have said here, my email is [email protected]
Crackdown in Bangkok – after 8 PM
# 41
Welcome2Anarchy
You seem to possess a highly sophisticated political mind. I have no way of telling whether it is with or without the intake of some alcoholic beverages…
Foreign Reds
Richard P, #18 – it’s satire, a send-up ( cf http://www.notthenation.com/ )
Like all good satire, it’s uncomfortably close to the real thing. Sad to say, that real thing is not hard to find; for example, take a look at the comment forums of Bangkok Post online and The Nation’s bed-mate – ThaiVisa. Believe it or not, the posters there are not joking…..
Crackdown in Bangkok – after 8 PM
“As for “third element’ -the M79 attack that killed a colonel/wounded a maj general overseeing the operations is prime cause of my suspicion.” From http://twitter.com/tulsathit
Crackdown in Bangkok – after 8 PM
When I left the Internet shop in my soi yesterday evening, there was an Australian living here sitting on the steps of a shop with a glass of beer. He uttered, “Now, finally something positive has happened.” My response of “Are nine dead positive?” earned me the politically sophisticated statement of “These fukin’ reds, kill them all.”
Crackdown in Bangkok – after 8 PM
“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty
-Thomas Jefferson”
The present Yellows shirt government and its propaganda machine, the Yellow media, are tyrants.
Nearly all media outlets in Thailand are under Yellow/Army control or influence.
Luckily Thailand is full of tourists with camera’s and video equipment, otherwise the truth would not get out. I have seen a more “free” press in Burma than presently is in Thailand.
War at Khao San
Btw, the Army chief should appear in TV soon demanding that the PM step down. Why ? Because, the Army chief did so to former PM Somchai for his police’s “brutal actions” against the yellow shirts on 7 October 2008, resulting on the deaths of two PAD members and injuries of many protesters.
The Army chief’s failure to do so would certainly be interpreted as double standards (sorry sir).
The scene at Phan Fa
Regarding the empty portrait frames, I would point out that Princess Sirindhorn’s birthday is April 2nd and I have seen numerous pics and clips of street scenes recently which prominently feature her portrait.
While not discounting that portraits of HRH and/or HMK may have been removed “due to respect (concern they might get peppered by bullets and flying debris….”, it’s also possible that they were just in mid-changeover and overtaken by events.
The scene at Phan Fa
Justin, per your account:
1. “I then began moving through the crowd (which by then had expanded to at least 50 000 in the immediate vicinity alone) toward Democracy Monument” How do you know it was ‘at least 50,000? How do you go about estimating crowd size?
2. “A column of Armoured Personnel Carriers extending into one of the side streets. Swarming all over them were hundreds of red shirts, who were literally tearing them to pieces with their bare hands.” Really? Human beings tearing apart armoured vehicles with their bare hands? Wonderful imagery but a bit fantastical?
3. “By that time, rumours were spreading like wildfire that a coup and crackdown by the hardliners was imminent, so we decided it was time to go home. ” Hardliners? You mean the Thai government whom the Thai Supreme Court had declared had within its constitutional power to declare a state of emergency? Being one with the people. though, feels good, doesn’t it?
4. “The spots in which people had been killed had been transformed into shrines, fenced off, already littered with money, food and other offerings, and with Red Shirt storytellers on hand to relate to the sightseers the epic tale of their final hours.” Wonderful way to glorify death and sacrifice. Wow, wish I were there to experience it!
Your story was a breathless account. Not sure it it was meant for a political rally (of the already converted) or uncoloured reporting of what’s going on. For the latter, I’ll stick to AP, Reuters, and the like.
War at Khao San
In the past, such as in the 14 Oct 1973 student uprising or the May 1992 Bloodbath, a PM whose actions caused bloodshed would be asked to step down. I am not sure this time because maybe the casualties (18 people dead, over 800 injured) are not much compared to the two incidents.
Any PM from any democratic country would step down without being asked during the current situation but this Oxford-educated PM is different because he is there to fulfill a group of people’s mission, not his own. He may decide to stay no matter how many people have died or will die in the streets.
There are unconfirmed reports from “watermelon soldiers” that a second operation to flush out the reds from Phan Fa will start soon this Sunday afternoon. Let us wait and see because these are not confirmed.
Crackdown in Bangkok – after 8 PM
The most charitable thing I can say about Robert Horn’s “Time” piece ( http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1981059,00.html?xid=rss-topstories ) is that it shows all the signs of having been written in The Nation’s “news” room.
War at Khao San
I guess I am the one being accused by Suzie Wong of being a part of K. Abhisit’s dirty operations. This saddens me and makes me realize there is no point arguing with you here.
I have no allegiance with any party or group. I am US born but my father is from Singburi and my mother is from Payao. my roots are far from elite and rather close to the red shirts. Don’t accuse me the way you do. The misinformation you try to spread is an insult to thinkng minds. There is a reason why Thaksin cannot enter countries like the US, UK, etc. There is a reason he was found unfit to own a premier league football club. The reasons why he held onto power are different from K. Abhisit’s. They are like night and day. Please stop accusing me. Today is already a sad day beyond belief. There is nothing wrong with wanting investigations to uncover the truth. There is nothing wrong with wanting justice and peace for more than just one group that is misinformed and exploited. Please stop. It really has gone on far too long.
The scene at Phan Fa
“…he massive golden banner with [H]is face that usually hangs across the face of one of the buildings had been replaced by a purple one with a with [H]is daughter on it.”
Would not read too much into this. Think it was just to mark her birthday on 2nd April.
War at Khao San
Yoda, Abhisit holed up in a barrack to issue his statement. – FACT.
His government was set up in a barrack, wan’t it? Somchai tried to call on the army for help, they didn’t come, yet they did for Abhisit. – FACT.
No one installed him? he didn’t came to power by majority of ppl’s votes, did he? The other party had to be dissolved first. – FACT.
So many facts, that you seem to be ignorant of. Is this your first time on a independent news site? Because you seemed to be getting your information elsewhere, and there are glaring HOLES in them.
——————-
Pharris, wait for it, all the players haven’t come out yet. At least not the MOST important one anyhow.
I urged anyone who wish to know more about the land of (not so much) smiles to read Paul Handley’s infamous book. It’ll fill in the blanks on the events that has happened, and the pattern will make sense somewhat.
So, making any conclusion now is too rash, and a bit naive. The main player isn’t even here yet!
The scene at Phan Fa
Roberto Marsalis, I urge you to study our history. And to find that the writer of this report speaks the truth. The hint is there, only you need some background to understands it.
The problem in this country didn’t just started over night. It has been here for a LONG time.
As the writer said, wouldn’t want to run into LM, would we? So I’ll stop here.
War at Khao San
What is the end game for both sides?
A compromise in which new elections are held within 6 months (with O preconditions on either side) seems a fair and rational outcome that will avoid bloodshed and chaos. And while everyone is interested in the streets, no one’s asking about the budget. That seems an awfully important political issue to get out of the way before either side contemplate new elections.
Is such a compromise possible?
The Red Shirts are riding a wave of momentum and are in no mood to negotiate. They feel they have the upper hand after two successive ‘wins’ in two days. They’ve humiliated the government and feel they’ve splintered the military. They are most likely wrong. The military/police will soon come down on them with a fury so strong that red will not only be the color of their shirts but the color of their decaying corpses. If the Red Shirt leaders know what’s good for them, now is the time to negotiate. Don’t believe the hype.
What’s the likely outcome?
A military and police crackdown of a sort that’s not been seen since the 1980s. The Red Shirt will overplay their hands, bouyed by positive press coverage. The government will be delegimitized by its impotent response to the protests but will hold on until the next elections. The UDD will lose any effective leadership. Both will lose the next elections and a new alliance of military and Bangkok business elites (sans royalists?) will restore order without any meaningful reforms.
Moral of the story?
Farmers and country folks alike, now is the time for your leaders to negotiate while they have the upper hand. Support negotiations and don’t give in to the euphoria of “People Power.” Look where it got the Philippines–nowhere. Democrats, a little power sharing with the country bumpkins will do the country good. Avoiding bloodshed should be every Thai’s top priority.
Anything else?
Beware the vigilantes. If I were a Bangkok resident, I’d be mighty pissed at the recent disruptions. I might team up with my fellow neighbors and business owners and go after these protesters who have usurped my city and my business for their own political agenda. That’s a powderkeg that’s about to explode. Watch out.
War at Khao San
Professor Jim Taylor, thank you for your insights. People who are pulling string behind Aphisit and Aphisit himself have arranged a team of psychological operation to conduct deny and deceit here in NM. I am sorry that you are encountering Aphisit’s dirty operation.
Aphisit is an untrustworthy, р╕Ыр╕ер╕┤р╣Йр╕Щр╕Ыр╕ер╣Йр╕нр╕Щ, person. Aphisit himself knows full well that in a fair game he will never be elected; a greedy man, Aphisit, simply has no shame to play dirty tricks in order to cling on to power. Blood and death has no meaning to a person with no conscience like Aphisit.
Be a man for once Aphisit, GET OUT!