A case for Isarn secession? Now that could be a wild-ass thesis from some expert(??) on Thai issues from Australia that should be worth some comic relief.
How could they fail to explode if the pull rings are still firmly in place? Do you think the person/s who supposedly lobbed them into the crowd of protesters and forgot to take the pin out? Coincidence maybe?
I don’t think you back up the statement “There is now something approaching a national consensus that violent repression of protest action is unacceptable.” For one, it’s not even clear that acceptability was a factor in the past, if one weighs the way the military decided to move, the limitations on those moves, and the negative public reaction afterwards.
Isn’t it possible that a couple other factors are at work here today? : First, that the two sides are fairly evenly balanced and, unlike the past, neither has the ability to convince its followers or the public that a violent tack would succeed. And second, no one, especially the people at the top behind the scenes, can predict the outcome given the big-picture stakes of the future of the monarchy.
Signore Kramden, please do not be to harsh on Signore StanG. He definitely is not an intellectual giant nor he is an astute observer of the Thai political scene. Many of us Yellow Shirt veterans look with particular disdain on outsiders (especially farang) who pretend to understand the intricacies of our country – its politics, economy, society and culture – and who consistently engage in gross over-simplification of our political crises as struggles between good and evil. But he does have a point or two worth considering.
First of all, he brings to our attention the glorious battle and victory of the People’s Alliance for Democracy over the detestable Thaksin proxy regime on the 7th of October 2008. Our demands were not being met and so we took action like soldiers. I am not embarrassed to declare that it was necessary to sacrifice a few pawns for the greater good of the Movement and there was no hesitation in ordering our paid volunteers to confront the barricades and the police. It has been asked, “Weren’t these Yellow Shirt thugs brandishing weapons?” I retort, “Does it matter anymore?”
What was paramount was for the Movement to keep itself in the headlines and to wear down the puppet government through attrition. (Yellow Shirt veterans like myself remember that day with pride and with a deep sense of accomplishment. No one can take those feelings away from us.) The PAD emerged stronger, more united and more determined to install our own “democratic” administration. We had a martyr to hoist over our heads during our subsequent marches and later royal sympathies were bestowed upon us. Our media spin was so effective that we did contemplate another charge against the corrupt police but many of our supporters demanded extra payment as compensation for the extra risk. Imagine the shock of most of us Yellow Shirt boosters. Then again this is Thailand and money does buy loyalty. (However, I personally learned a valuable lesson that day. Middle class protesters are unreliable and fickle. I prefer proletariat types to act as both my shield and my sword.) Not surprisingly the foreign media assisted us in disseminating globally our message of authoritarian repression, State terrorism, and democratic change (we can count on). We had scored a major PR coup.
Tell me, who really supports the Red Shirts? Who listens to them? Who understands their babble? Who cares about their so-called “grievances”? Listen to me, these Red Shirts represent absolutely nothing.
Secondly, I suspect that Signore StanG would agree with me and other Yellow Shirts that sanctioned and legal violence on the part of the State can and should be used when the interests of the amart are being threatened or eroded. It does not make any sense to call out the armed forces to protect the life and property of peasants, labourers, and spineless bourgeoisie. Their primary function is to defend the structures and the institutions of the State from both foreign and DOMESTIC enemies, in other words, to maintain national security. (I love this concept and we elites really know how to use it for our own ends.) Let’s not be bleeding-heart liberals here. This is a high stakes game for power and wealth, nothing more and nothing less. Our way of life must and will be upheld. We will not tolerate usurpers such as the Red Shirts.
As for Abhisit, he is expendable. We always can find another “face” to function as the spokesperson of our “elected” government. I just hope one day that we can be so fortunate to be under the enlightened leadership of another General Prem Tinsulanonda.
Before I conclude my commentary, I would like to leave you with a plea from one member of the elite to another: Do not delude yourselves any longer. There is only one law which exists and is observed in this the Land of Smiles. Who out there is familiar with Kipling?
I find most of the comments here to negative. I think Andrew sees things quite sharp. Blunt violent repression of this protest would mean civil war and the military knows that. I’d put my money on Abhisit and the red leaders sussing it out with some compromise on an election date. The reds have every reason to assume an election is beneficial to them.
Thailand has an extremely long history of self serving and corrupt politicians, civil servants, police, army, teachers and other so-called government officials.
The elite of the country too have encouraged this, especially in the last four decades or so, for their own self serving ends and to feed their frustrated delusions of a golden time when feudalism and god worship was the norm.
Carefully crafted, then stage managed, what started as hobby for the national and spiritual centre of Thailand became the most successful masquerade of modern times anywhere in the world. This rise back to the power with its attendant adoration of the people became its own and sole raison d’├кtre.
Thaksin bought his massive support in Isaan – be clear on this point – and in doing so became as popular as the King. He had to go.
But please don’t call what happened to Thaksin a death blow against democracy. There has never been such a thing here in Thailand.
I can’t believe that anyone is unwilling or unable to look back at the last 70 odd years without realising the sham that democracy has always been in Thailand. But it seems some people still do and even hold out for its restoration.
It is a great slogan – something that we had at 57, but have systematically dismantled over the past five decades.
This was a serious error on Najib’s part. I believe he underestimated the strength of the warlords in his party. They have really become a thorn to anything that he is attempting to do to strengthen BN’s public image. Then again, they are probably reflecting realities on the ground.
Do read this excellent article from Tunku Abdul Aziz on 1Malaysia.
About the government’s understanding of the “spirit of democracy”:
“The spokesman [Panthithan Wattanayakorn] said the government had successfully taken the UDD’s mouthpiece, the satellite-based People Channel TV station, off the air and was shutting down UDD websites and radio stations. The government was also in the process of closing down print media which had disseminated misinformation.”
Well said StanG. Ignoring you is often the best strategy, but here I want to congratulate you for your savage if small mind. What would we do without card-carrying fascists justifying military interventions, coups, privilege and now (he seems to hope) murder? The whiff of tear gas, the clack of baton on shield, and blood in the nostrils is so soothing for the jack-booted brigade.
Lastest news out of Dubai from my Arab friend there, the Dubai Interpol is keeping a close watch on Thaksin, they are just waiting to arrest him if he shows and links video to his red shirts in Thailand, heard this time the Dubai government is seriously to arrest him on the spot anytime now, probably after much pressure from Thailand and also Thailand returned one of their criminal to them recently, they have to do something in return, also they are worried Thailand might sent hired killers to Dubai to get rid of Thaksin there, the Israelis did that, why not Thai secret personnels too, after all its easy to get into Dubai these days.
PAD exploited this “newly” found consensus to the full three years ago.
The police blinked in Oct 7, 2008 incident and was universally condemned so much that they flatly refused to deal with the reds a few months later, saying they were unfairly prosecuted for that one fateful day.
Now the consensus is emerging that dispersing street mobs is absolutely necessary, a few more days and the consensus will be that reds blood is a small price to pay for peace and order, and they are asking for it anyway. Whatever people think of reds, “innocent victims” is probably the last thing on their minds.
I expect far more casualties this time around, no matter how hard the army will try.
Don’t forget to send postcards to red leadership who devised this strategy of sacrificing lives to make government look bad.
I suspect it won’t work at all, Abhisit might even come out with better approval ratings instead.
if it was the US military they would underestimate their enemies and psych up their soldiers that they are foreign and primitive heathens and gung ho in anyway…
in this case the Thai military probably also underestimate the staying power of the reds
but the real fear of failure comes because the enemy is family to their soldiers, house slaves, toy girls and boys and the risks of rebellion could strike in very personal ways
#27
Frankly, yet another coup is no big deal. We either get the smarmy gits in the army or we get the smarmy gits in the police force. Either way it’s business as usual, except for the wannabes (like Seh Daeng) who want to prove their ‘manliness’ by getting topped or maimed for life. There has never been an freedom in Thailand, and there is never likely to be anything on the strength of the last 10 years of anarchy under the Thaksin regime. That’s right! It’s not even over. We are still stuck with the rubbishy self-serving civil servants he brought along with him.
If I have any advice, it is this. Sit this one out. Neither side in this conflict is even remotely capable of delivering social justice, since they have too many personal greivances on their agenda first. There’s nothing here worth getting yourself shot for. Hell, I don’t really care if I have to sit through another Thaksin regime. The man doesn’t really realise how much he has wrecked his own credibility. He will either be a lameduck PM or a repressive dictator – in which case we will have the privilege of observing him in all his deeply flawed glory. Either way, he probably won’t last long before the knives are out for him amongst all those non-kindred spirits in red shirts.
People like Weera & Weng no longer really have any real credibility left. There isn’t a single man amongst them that is capable of declaring himself a socialist, for the simple reason that they no longer believe in it. Rather, they believe that the rest of us owe them power and privilege for their past deeds. We own them precisely nothing, because they have sold out to the highest bidder.
Bring on the next regime, and see if I care. It is already guaranteed to be as vicious, stupid, inept, self-serving and venal as the somchai and samak regimes. Perhaps progress can only be here when it is totally obvious that thai politics has reached absolute rock bottom. God knows, some people have known that was the case for decades. The rest of you were too busy talking BS to notice.
Without proxy I get blocked by MICT/TOT, with I get an error message. Neither English nor Thai is available from my end. However, the UDD site, blocked by MICT, downloads with proxy.
@chris beale & Media War
“the very problem of how some westerners always think they know better than us”.
I never take this attitude.
chris is right, me too – I do not consider myself better than somebody else. I think banrachawong here is is faking being “noi jai”
@banrachawong, it’s Ok, we do not think that you’re any worse. come out of your corner already. 🙂
I forgot to answer your sarcasm about history …
I am also too humble to “think out of the box “and recite secondhand history right out of some history book (did you really read my comment?).
well, instead of pretending being “humble” (while at the same time continue talking down to people – I guess it’s coz of hard to eradicate habit of dealing with “lesser beings”, upcountry peasants ) – you could / should have instead provided your own version.
because I have asked you pretty simple and innocent question :
“which “thousands of years” are mentioned here?”
I didn’t say that I know better than anybody, or especially that I may possibly know better than Thais. my question shows as much.
so, yes, you might be right that we get our information from different sources (or as you put it “text books”). that’s why, you could kindly educate me (and others whom you consider ignorant here) on the matter of CORRECT version of history, please.
prove wrong my discrepancies or in other words provide certain explanations (and better yet – evidences and sources, the “text books” or whatever YOU use) according to which you have made such a statement “thousands of years of history“.
otherwise, sorry to say, it is not enough simply make a statement (or more like a STRONG accusation) such as :
Intellectual, you say, you have simplified thousands of years of history with just that? Are you sure you are up for the consequences of polluting Thai people with your ideas?
you are practically and literally INSULTING conscience of many people here, questioning their intellect – or did you mean something else, then what ? and what “pollution” do you actually imply ?
therefore, quit fooling around, playing so witty sarcastic, yet at the same fellow time “humble” and “noi jai“, so unjustly offended by some imaginary “polluting ideas”. better – present your own version / opinion in such a way that IGNORANT people like me can easily understand it.
why don’t you ? not by chance, because you still consider yourself sort of unique, special, one of a kind, better, cultured, civilized, etc. ? 🙂 but then, if you really thing in that way, why do you even bother to POLLUTE yourself by even talking to such people like commentators on this blog ?
Just to clarify the issue is that some people, even those outside Thailand, are getting the “It works!” message instead of the Prachatai site. If you are getting a “blocked” message then that is different, but very relevant, of course.
Are other sites experiencing similar difficulties?
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The Economist takes on lese majeste
A case for Isarn secession? Now that could be a wild-ass thesis from some expert(??) on Thai issues from Australia that should be worth some comic relief.
Thailand’s revised Internal Security Act
[…] Thailand’s revised Internal Security Act October 2007 […]
State of Emergency in Bangkok
Julian // Apr 8, 2010 at 12:15 am:
You state that ” canisters thrown by unknown men from within parliament compound into the Red Shirts crowd failed to explode.”
However, if you look carefully at the photo of Mr. Arisman holding up the CS canisters (which can be found here, photo #11: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/thaksin-judgement-update/173899/reds-enter-parliament), you can see that the pull rings and safety levers are still firmly in place on both of the CS canisters.
How could they fail to explode if the pull rings are still firmly in place? Do you think the person/s who supposedly lobbed them into the crowd of protesters and forgot to take the pin out? Coincidence maybe?
Can Thailand’s new consensus hold?
I don’t think you back up the statement “There is now something approaching a national consensus that violent repression of protest action is unacceptable.” For one, it’s not even clear that acceptability was a factor in the past, if one weighs the way the military decided to move, the limitations on those moves, and the negative public reaction afterwards.
Isn’t it possible that a couple other factors are at work here today? : First, that the two sides are fairly evenly balanced and, unlike the past, neither has the ability to convince its followers or the public that a violent tack would succeed. And second, no one, especially the people at the top behind the scenes, can predict the outcome given the big-picture stakes of the future of the monarchy.
Can Thailand’s new consensus hold?
Signore Kramden, please do not be to harsh on Signore StanG. He definitely is not an intellectual giant nor he is an astute observer of the Thai political scene. Many of us Yellow Shirt veterans look with particular disdain on outsiders (especially farang) who pretend to understand the intricacies of our country – its politics, economy, society and culture – and who consistently engage in gross over-simplification of our political crises as struggles between good and evil. But he does have a point or two worth considering.
First of all, he brings to our attention the glorious battle and victory of the People’s Alliance for Democracy over the detestable Thaksin proxy regime on the 7th of October 2008. Our demands were not being met and so we took action like soldiers. I am not embarrassed to declare that it was necessary to sacrifice a few pawns for the greater good of the Movement and there was no hesitation in ordering our paid volunteers to confront the barricades and the police. It has been asked, “Weren’t these Yellow Shirt thugs brandishing weapons?” I retort, “Does it matter anymore?”
What was paramount was for the Movement to keep itself in the headlines and to wear down the puppet government through attrition. (Yellow Shirt veterans like myself remember that day with pride and with a deep sense of accomplishment. No one can take those feelings away from us.) The PAD emerged stronger, more united and more determined to install our own “democratic” administration. We had a martyr to hoist over our heads during our subsequent marches and later royal sympathies were bestowed upon us. Our media spin was so effective that we did contemplate another charge against the corrupt police but many of our supporters demanded extra payment as compensation for the extra risk. Imagine the shock of most of us Yellow Shirt boosters. Then again this is Thailand and money does buy loyalty. (However, I personally learned a valuable lesson that day. Middle class protesters are unreliable and fickle. I prefer proletariat types to act as both my shield and my sword.) Not surprisingly the foreign media assisted us in disseminating globally our message of authoritarian repression, State terrorism, and democratic change (we can count on). We had scored a major PR coup.
Tell me, who really supports the Red Shirts? Who listens to them? Who understands their babble? Who cares about their so-called “grievances”? Listen to me, these Red Shirts represent absolutely nothing.
Secondly, I suspect that Signore StanG would agree with me and other Yellow Shirts that sanctioned and legal violence on the part of the State can and should be used when the interests of the amart are being threatened or eroded. It does not make any sense to call out the armed forces to protect the life and property of peasants, labourers, and spineless bourgeoisie. Their primary function is to defend the structures and the institutions of the State from both foreign and DOMESTIC enemies, in other words, to maintain national security. (I love this concept and we elites really know how to use it for our own ends.) Let’s not be bleeding-heart liberals here. This is a high stakes game for power and wealth, nothing more and nothing less. Our way of life must and will be upheld. We will not tolerate usurpers such as the Red Shirts.
As for Abhisit, he is expendable. We always can find another “face” to function as the spokesperson of our “elected” government. I just hope one day that we can be so fortunate to be under the enlightened leadership of another General Prem Tinsulanonda.
Before I conclude my commentary, I would like to leave you with a plea from one member of the elite to another: Do not delude yourselves any longer. There is only one law which exists and is observed in this the Land of Smiles. Who out there is familiar with Kipling?
Buona notte. And may all your wishes come true.
Can Thailand’s new consensus hold?
I find most of the comments here to negative. I think Andrew sees things quite sharp. Blunt violent repression of this protest would mean civil war and the military knows that. I’d put my money on Abhisit and the red leaders sussing it out with some compromise on an election date. The reds have every reason to assume an election is beneficial to them.
State of Emergency in Bangkok
Thailand has an extremely long history of self serving and corrupt politicians, civil servants, police, army, teachers and other so-called government officials.
The elite of the country too have encouraged this, especially in the last four decades or so, for their own self serving ends and to feed their frustrated delusions of a golden time when feudalism and god worship was the norm.
Carefully crafted, then stage managed, what started as hobby for the national and spiritual centre of Thailand became the most successful masquerade of modern times anywhere in the world. This rise back to the power with its attendant adoration of the people became its own and sole raison d’├кtre.
Thaksin bought his massive support in Isaan – be clear on this point – and in doing so became as popular as the King. He had to go.
But please don’t call what happened to Thaksin a death blow against democracy. There has never been such a thing here in Thailand.
I can’t believe that anyone is unwilling or unable to look back at the last 70 odd years without realising the sham that democracy has always been in Thailand. But it seems some people still do and even hold out for its restoration.
Democracy. Really?
Najib’s first year in office, Part I
Your right m8condo,
It is a great slogan – something that we had at 57, but have systematically dismantled over the past five decades.
This was a serious error on Najib’s part. I believe he underestimated the strength of the warlords in his party. They have really become a thorn to anything that he is attempting to do to strengthen BN’s public image. Then again, they are probably reflecting realities on the ground.
Do read this excellent article from Tunku Abdul Aziz on 1Malaysia.
State of Emergency in Bangkok
Samuel, you should tell Thanong at the Nation. He deals in unverified Thaksin rumors.
Can Thailand’s new consensus hold?
StanG#21
“Abhisit might even come out with better approval ratings instead”
– so why not now have an election ?
Correct information from CAPO
[…] […]
Correct information from CAPO
About the government’s understanding of the “spirit of democracy”:
“The spokesman [Panthithan Wattanayakorn] said the government had successfully taken the UDD’s mouthpiece, the satellite-based People Channel TV station, off the air and was shutting down UDD websites and radio stations. The government was also in the process of closing down print media which had disseminated misinformation.”
The Nation, April 8. 2010
Can Thailand’s new consensus hold?
Well said StanG. Ignoring you is often the best strategy, but here I want to congratulate you for your savage if small mind. What would we do without card-carrying fascists justifying military interventions, coups, privilege and now (he seems to hope) murder? The whiff of tear gas, the clack of baton on shield, and blood in the nostrils is so soothing for the jack-booted brigade.
State of Emergency in Bangkok
Lastest news out of Dubai from my Arab friend there, the Dubai Interpol is keeping a close watch on Thaksin, they are just waiting to arrest him if he shows and links video to his red shirts in Thailand, heard this time the Dubai government is seriously to arrest him on the spot anytime now, probably after much pressure from Thailand and also Thailand returned one of their criminal to them recently, they have to do something in return, also they are worried Thailand might sent hired killers to Dubai to get rid of Thaksin there, the Israelis did that, why not Thai secret personnels too, after all its easy to get into Dubai these days.
Can Thailand’s new consensus hold?
PAD exploited this “newly” found consensus to the full three years ago.
The police blinked in Oct 7, 2008 incident and was universally condemned so much that they flatly refused to deal with the reds a few months later, saying they were unfairly prosecuted for that one fateful day.
Now the consensus is emerging that dispersing street mobs is absolutely necessary, a few more days and the consensus will be that reds blood is a small price to pay for peace and order, and they are asking for it anyway. Whatever people think of reds, “innocent victims” is probably the last thing on their minds.
I expect far more casualties this time around, no matter how hard the army will try.
Don’t forget to send postcards to red leadership who devised this strategy of sacrificing lives to make government look bad.
I suspect it won’t work at all, Abhisit might even come out with better approval ratings instead.
Can Thailand’s new consensus hold?
Lek… makes sense
if it was the US military they would underestimate their enemies and psych up their soldiers that they are foreign and primitive heathens and gung ho in anyway…
in this case the Thai military probably also underestimate the staying power of the reds
but the real fear of failure comes because the enemy is family to their soldiers, house slaves, toy girls and boys and the risks of rebellion could strike in very personal ways
State of Emergency in Bangkok
#27
Frankly, yet another coup is no big deal. We either get the smarmy gits in the army or we get the smarmy gits in the police force. Either way it’s business as usual, except for the wannabes (like Seh Daeng) who want to prove their ‘manliness’ by getting topped or maimed for life. There has never been an freedom in Thailand, and there is never likely to be anything on the strength of the last 10 years of anarchy under the Thaksin regime. That’s right! It’s not even over. We are still stuck with the rubbishy self-serving civil servants he brought along with him.
If I have any advice, it is this. Sit this one out. Neither side in this conflict is even remotely capable of delivering social justice, since they have too many personal greivances on their agenda first. There’s nothing here worth getting yourself shot for. Hell, I don’t really care if I have to sit through another Thaksin regime. The man doesn’t really realise how much he has wrecked his own credibility. He will either be a lameduck PM or a repressive dictator – in which case we will have the privilege of observing him in all his deeply flawed glory. Either way, he probably won’t last long before the knives are out for him amongst all those non-kindred spirits in red shirts.
People like Weera & Weng no longer really have any real credibility left. There isn’t a single man amongst them that is capable of declaring himself a socialist, for the simple reason that they no longer believe in it. Rather, they believe that the rest of us owe them power and privilege for their past deeds. We own them precisely nothing, because they have sold out to the highest bidder.
Bring on the next regime, and see if I care. It is already guaranteed to be as vicious, stupid, inept, self-serving and venal as the somchai and samak regimes. Perhaps progress can only be here when it is totally obvious that thai politics has reached absolute rock bottom. God knows, some people have known that was the case for decades. The rest of you were too busy talking BS to notice.
State of Emergency in Bangkok
Re. Prachatai –
Without proxy I get blocked by MICT/TOT, with I get an error message. Neither English nor Thai is available from my end. However, the UDD site, blocked by MICT, downloads with proxy.
Imagining a new mandala in mainland Southeast Asia
chris is right, me too – I do not consider myself better than somebody else. I think banrachawong here is is faking being “noi jai”
@banrachawong, it’s Ok, we do not think that you’re any worse. come out of your corner already. 🙂
I forgot to answer your sarcasm about history …
well, instead of pretending being “humble” (while at the same time continue talking down to people – I guess it’s coz of hard to eradicate habit of dealing with “lesser beings”, upcountry peasants ) – you could / should have instead provided your own version.
because I have asked you pretty simple and innocent question :
I didn’t say that I know better than anybody, or especially that I may possibly know better than Thais. my question shows as much.
so, yes, you might be right that we get our information from different sources (or as you put it “text books”). that’s why, you could kindly educate me (and others whom you consider ignorant here) on the matter of CORRECT version of history, please.
prove wrong my discrepancies or in other words provide certain explanations (and better yet – evidences and sources, the “text books” or whatever YOU use) according to which you have made such a statement “thousands of years of history“.
otherwise, sorry to say, it is not enough simply make a statement (or more like a STRONG accusation) such as :
you are practically and literally INSULTING conscience of many people here, questioning their intellect – or did you mean something else, then what ? and what “pollution” do you actually imply ?
therefore, quit fooling around, playing so witty sarcastic, yet at the same fellow time “humble” and “noi jai“, so unjustly offended by some imaginary “polluting ideas”. better – present your own version / opinion in such a way that IGNORANT people like me can easily understand it.
why don’t you ? not by chance, because you still consider yourself sort of unique, special, one of a kind, better, cultured, civilized, etc. ? 🙂 but then, if you really thing in that way, why do you even bother to POLLUTE yourself by even talking to such people like commentators on this blog ?
State of Emergency in Bangkok
Michael,
Just to clarify the issue is that some people, even those outside Thailand, are getting the “It works!” message instead of the Prachatai site. If you are getting a “blocked” message then that is different, but very relevant, of course.
Are other sites experiencing similar difficulties?
Best wishes to all,
Nich