[…] Reds Are in Revolt BANGKOK POST – IDD: Thailand’s “Red” Mental Retardation NEW MANDALA – Nick Nostitz on Red Protest: Bangkok or Bust, Part 1 ! KHI KWAI – Thai-Style “Democracy,” 1958-2010 ECONOMIST – Less of Lèse […]
Debate, discussion, whatever – you were the one who called ‘time’ and by offering to call it a “draw” in response I was trying to be conciliatory. That should have been pretty obvious, I reckon.
As you have said yourself, you speak for the Red Shirts at New Mandala. As for myself, I have had a gut-full of extremist Red and Yellow propaganda, both of which serve to produce supporters who automatically ‘parrot’ the lines fed to them, thus precluding intelligent discussion or debate. I don’t know about you, but as the plaintiff, I was fighting THE POWER (i.e. ‘The Amnart’) in Court without even a lawyer (couldn’t get one for love or money) long before Sondhi Limthongkul fell out with Takky and Sondhi’s Yellow Shirts started blowing the whistle and began demanding that Thaksin ‘step down’ as PM. What about you and “we here at New Mandala”?
Back in ’91 I was still just an observer, but it was clear to me then that there were no “Angels and Devils” as was being said. Then after a good look, I was yellow and now I’m white – just trying my best to correct some of the more blatant propaganda and ugliness out there – which seems to me to becoming far more from the Reds, and there are so many extremist Reds around i.e. those unable to hold the sort of fairly reasonable and intelligent discussion we have had here. Like you, I have little time for the Amnart, however I do not include people such as the King, former PM Anand and of course others among those Amnart I dislike because, in my opinion, they have done far more good than bad.
Interestingly, I’ve yet to meet a Red (for the record, I can speak to anyone about anything in Thai as I speak Thai clearly and fluently – used to read and write it well too before I was ‘blacklisted by the ‘amnart’ for suing a former rector of Thammassat U.) who would admit to ever being a Yellow, which would seem to be a good indicator of their tolerance for Thaksin’s corruption and exploitation – so long as they are getting a little bit of a handout themselves:
Red in one eye, blind in the other.
‘He who pays the piper calls the tune’: The fact is that Thaksin Shinawatra remains the head of the Red Shirt movement in almost every way and they clearly have a symbiotic relationship, if not an identical agenda – or even a clear political ideology. The fact is that Thaksin Shinawatra’s political legacy to date contains so much that is negative (e.g. anti-democratic, anti-intellectual and corrupt) that it increasingly overshadows the few lasting achievements he has to his credit.
Finally, as a professional teacher here of 20 years standing, I consider his single biggest failing to be education reform. After 70-odd years had been already wasted, Thaksin achieved little if anything in replacing the rather bogus Chinese-style formal education system “software” whose deliberate aim beyond ‘the Three Rs’ has always been to produce a politically passive citizenry unskilled in thinking for themselves and distrustful of outsiders. After all, isn’t that why “we at New Mandala” had to go abroad to get a ‘real education’?
I find this absolutely appalling in Thaksin, given the mandate he had and claiming the Western education he did. Fortunately, by contrast, UNESCO earlier this month reported “notable progress” in reforming the QUALITY of Thailand’s formal education system – under PM Abhisit.
Please don’t pay attention to cynics who said you are a week late. In your next installment, you can perhaps include today’s (Saturday morning the 27th) events where the troops are leaving in their Humvee trucks from three places (Wat Bovorn, Wat Tri, and Nang Loeng race- course) after being “persuaded” by hundreds of thousands of reds. It is indeed a spectacular sight when the Humvees moved slowly along the sea of red masses.
I agree with Don and Tarrin. The Red Shirts are actually neither leftists nor Marxist-Leninist; they are just protesters, partly being desparate with the doubled standard of the legal system, partly being in desperate poverty affected from both domestic and globally collapsed economy. Some parts of Marxism-Leninism used to attack the aristrocracy (Amatya) are tactically formed just to attrack the proletariat. Strategically, they want to make Thailand a non-monarchist-capitalist state which is impossible at present.
Just heard from a friend that “Naree khee mah khao” was a prediction left by the late holy monk Resi Lingdam of Uthai Thani. There are different interpretation for this “naree” but he suggested the fact that 70 percent of the red shirts congregating at Phanfa Bridge daily are females who constitute a formidable force, some of them had shaved their heads to follow the example of Rambo Isan.
Many decades ago when the Farmers Federation of Thailand started a grass root campaign similar to the Red Shirts’ the death squads from the Military and police picked out and killed all their leaders and cadres one by one the movement finally died.
Maybe the world has changed for the civilized better and the conservative Thai society acknowledge that by letting the red shirts roam Bangkok freely. But, how long before the killings will surface again?
Nick, you’d better watch out for yourself as your are now becoming real famous and many conservatives, even obvious here on the NM, started seeing you as a serious threat to their better-dead-than-left society.
It’s a pity some people have to pour cold water on the report and pick holes, rather than just take it as an honest first-hand account with a hell of a lot of legwork put in.
My biggest surprise was that the UDD had approached the human rights commission to mediate, etc. From reading the newspapers, I had the impression that they entered the picture later at the request of the gov’t.
A very minor detail but is Abhisit’s house in soi 33, as you state, or soi 31 as I read elsewhere?
Steve, “post our pics before the event” is actually a clever idea for all those on the frontline of citizen journalism. I just scrolled up the page and half the pics can’t be easily dated.
Now these photographers have plenty of stock “driving around”, “good reception”, “blessed by monks”, “blood rituals”, “leaders on stage”, “red flags and banners” pictures that can perfectly complement any future coverage.
Judging by Nick’s description they aren’t the most scrupulous bunch.
“I think Nick was a week too late and reiterated the same old stuff we’ve already seen on blogs like NM. I haven’t even waited for all his pix to load, I must have seen thousands of them already, it’s all a blur.”
Note to Nick: next time, better post your pics before the event, OK?
That why the quoted sentance began with: “An elderly artist and village teacher, Ajarn Vichak, made an impressive Tie-Dye work,…”
Thank you, but i have barely enough education to know that Tie-Dye is not magic but technique.
And as to magic rituals, this is part of Thai culture everywhere. From Bramanistic Palace rituals to village mediums, or the PAD surrounding the equestrian statue with sanitary napkins of menstruating female PAD members, or, in this case, of Democrat Party officials trying to counter the curse with sacred water.
Or, in the west, we have rituals in which wine is symbolically transformed into blood…
You will have to life with it – rituals are integral part of human culture, and haven’t hindered us in developing electric power, automobiles, and whatever else.
I think there’s one big obstacle that trumps all others in preventing repeal of LM. Open discussion about the role of the institution is not feared so much as open discussion about what happened about 64 years ago.
‘I’m sure in this country [Thailand] it is still 80% to 90%. And in this 80% or 90% there are some very, very loyal real monarchists or real royalists, perhaps 40-50-60%. The rest don’t see any disadvantages in living under the monarchy.’
Clever Anand. A diplomat at his best. NM readers should read this paragraph again.
Many PAD protesters were also offered money. My condo block lost many security guards over several months in 2008 because they kept leaving to join the protest and make 1000 baht per day as ‘PAD guards’. Those who weren’t willing to wield makeshift weapons as ‘PAD guards’ were lured by 500 baht per day simply for attending the PAD protests.
As someone mentioned earlier, it’s normal in Thailand for protesters of all colours and persuasions to be paid, because frequently they must give up their current job (and hence income) to join the protest. It’s specious for people to criticize the UDD for compensating some of their protesters when the PAD did exactly the same, for the same reasons — compensation of lost salary, transportation and accommodation costs, and yes, for both colours, sometimes simply to be there even if the person doesn’t understand the cause they’re protesting about. BOTH COLOURS DO IT. End of.
nice photos indeed.
Still I pity these people if they really believe someone like Taksin is going to improve anything in Thailand. So the nation and the Bangkok post are biased? well I remember very well how unbiased taksin’s press was as he was in power.
I remember all the trials against journalists that this “lover of freedom and democracy” did, more than any other politicians.
The richest goes for the “class war” what a joke!
Hope this sad story will end soon.
Aladdin,
“After every journalist writes, “the revered Thai king”, they should always add the disclaimer: “the penalty for criticism of the king or the royal family is 15 years imprisonment”.
I suggest New Mandala starts a movement and disseminates this to the worlds press.
Maybe T-Shirts too?
Is advertising the lese-majeste law an act of lese-majeste?
As Arlo Guthrie famously said: If two people do it they’ll think their faggots, but if three people do it, then it’s a movement!
“…where he dunked a piece of canvas into a bowl of blood. When the cloth dried a meditating Buddha appeared.”
It wasn’t magic Nick, that’s a standard tie-die technique using wax (but not usually blood!)
incidentally same technique David Blaine uses with the ashes and soap is this is your card?…on my arm trick!
All of which is also my comment on the Red/Yellow Brahmin shenanigans.
How can one expect evolving political consciousness when party faithfuls are still employing astrologers/witch-doctors/kids party magicians. What would Lenin/Marx or Gi have to say about these quaint practices?
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Bangkok or bust, Part 1
[…] Reds Are in Revolt BANGKOK POST – IDD: Thailand’s “Red” Mental Retardation NEW MANDALA – Nick Nostitz on Red Protest: Bangkok or Bust, Part 1 ! KHI KWAI – Thai-Style “Democracy,” 1958-2010 ECONOMIST – Less of Lèse […]
Thai style democracy?
Tarrin re Takky:
Debate, discussion, whatever – you were the one who called ‘time’ and by offering to call it a “draw” in response I was trying to be conciliatory. That should have been pretty obvious, I reckon.
As you have said yourself, you speak for the Red Shirts at New Mandala. As for myself, I have had a gut-full of extremist Red and Yellow propaganda, both of which serve to produce supporters who automatically ‘parrot’ the lines fed to them, thus precluding intelligent discussion or debate. I don’t know about you, but as the plaintiff, I was fighting THE POWER (i.e. ‘The Amnart’) in Court without even a lawyer (couldn’t get one for love or money) long before Sondhi Limthongkul fell out with Takky and Sondhi’s Yellow Shirts started blowing the whistle and began demanding that Thaksin ‘step down’ as PM. What about you and “we here at New Mandala”?
Back in ’91 I was still just an observer, but it was clear to me then that there were no “Angels and Devils” as was being said. Then after a good look, I was yellow and now I’m white – just trying my best to correct some of the more blatant propaganda and ugliness out there – which seems to me to becoming far more from the Reds, and there are so many extremist Reds around i.e. those unable to hold the sort of fairly reasonable and intelligent discussion we have had here. Like you, I have little time for the Amnart, however I do not include people such as the King, former PM Anand and of course others among those Amnart I dislike because, in my opinion, they have done far more good than bad.
Interestingly, I’ve yet to meet a Red (for the record, I can speak to anyone about anything in Thai as I speak Thai clearly and fluently – used to read and write it well too before I was ‘blacklisted by the ‘amnart’ for suing a former rector of Thammassat U.) who would admit to ever being a Yellow, which would seem to be a good indicator of their tolerance for Thaksin’s corruption and exploitation – so long as they are getting a little bit of a handout themselves:
Red in one eye, blind in the other.
‘He who pays the piper calls the tune’: The fact is that Thaksin Shinawatra remains the head of the Red Shirt movement in almost every way and they clearly have a symbiotic relationship, if not an identical agenda – or even a clear political ideology. The fact is that Thaksin Shinawatra’s political legacy to date contains so much that is negative (e.g. anti-democratic, anti-intellectual and corrupt) that it increasingly overshadows the few lasting achievements he has to his credit.
Finally, as a professional teacher here of 20 years standing, I consider his single biggest failing to be education reform. After 70-odd years had been already wasted, Thaksin achieved little if anything in replacing the rather bogus Chinese-style formal education system “software” whose deliberate aim beyond ‘the Three Rs’ has always been to produce a politically passive citizenry unskilled in thinking for themselves and distrustful of outsiders. After all, isn’t that why “we at New Mandala” had to go abroad to get a ‘real education’?
I find this absolutely appalling in Thaksin, given the mandate he had and claiming the Western education he did. Fortunately, by contrast, UNESCO earlier this month reported “notable progress” in reforming the QUALITY of Thailand’s formal education system – under PM Abhisit.
Bangkok or bust, Part 1
Excellent report, Nick.
Please don’t pay attention to cynics who said you are a week late. In your next installment, you can perhaps include today’s (Saturday morning the 27th) events where the troops are leaving in their Humvee trucks from three places (Wat Bovorn, Wat Tri, and Nang Loeng race- course) after being “persuaded” by hundreds of thousands of reds. It is indeed a spectacular sight when the Humvees moved slowly along the sea of red masses.
“History will not forgive us…”
I agree with Don and Tarrin. The Red Shirts are actually neither leftists nor Marxist-Leninist; they are just protesters, partly being desparate with the doubled standard of the legal system, partly being in desperate poverty affected from both domestic and globally collapsed economy. Some parts of Marxism-Leninism used to attack the aristrocracy (Amatya) are tactically formed just to attrack the proletariat. Strategically, they want to make Thailand a non-monarchist-capitalist state which is impossible at present.
The “worst-case scenario”
Just heard from a friend that “Naree khee mah khao” was a prediction left by the late holy monk Resi Lingdam of Uthai Thani. There are different interpretation for this “naree” but he suggested the fact that 70 percent of the red shirts congregating at Phanfa Bridge daily are females who constitute a formidable force, some of them had shaved their heads to follow the example of Rambo Isan.
Special interview: Giles Ungpakorn, part 1
[…] Special interview: Giles Ungpakorn, part 1. New Mandala (2009-02-20). р╕кр╕╖р╕Ър╕Др╣Йр╕Щр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И […]
Bangkok or bust, Part 1
Many decades ago when the Farmers Federation of Thailand started a grass root campaign similar to the Red Shirts’ the death squads from the Military and police picked out and killed all their leaders and cadres one by one the movement finally died.
Maybe the world has changed for the civilized better and the conservative Thai society acknowledge that by letting the red shirts roam Bangkok freely. But, how long before the killings will surface again?
Nick, you’d better watch out for yourself as your are now becoming real famous and many conservatives, even obvious here on the NM, started seeing you as a serious threat to their better-dead-than-left society.
Bangkok or bust, Part 1
Great read and fantastic photos, thanks Nick.
It’s a pity some people have to pour cold water on the report and pick holes, rather than just take it as an honest first-hand account with a hell of a lot of legwork put in.
My biggest surprise was that the UDD had approached the human rights commission to mediate, etc. From reading the newspapers, I had the impression that they entered the picture later at the request of the gov’t.
A very minor detail but is Abhisit’s house in soi 33, as you state, or soi 31 as I read elsewhere?
Bangkok or bust, Part 1
Steve, “post our pics before the event” is actually a clever idea for all those on the frontline of citizen journalism. I just scrolled up the page and half the pics can’t be easily dated.
Now these photographers have plenty of stock “driving around”, “good reception”, “blessed by monks”, “blood rituals”, “leaders on stage”, “red flags and banners” pictures that can perfectly complement any future coverage.
Judging by Nick’s description they aren’t the most scrupulous bunch.
The “worst-case scenario”
Hey, speaking of the , um, saint here is upcoming lecture at Berkeley, US (09:30, April 3):
“A Thorn in Bangkok’s Side: Khruba Sriwichai and the Sacred Space of the Chiang Mai State” by some Taylor Easum, University of WisconsinтАРMadison
Bangkok or bust, Part 1
“I think Nick was a week too late and reiterated the same old stuff we’ve already seen on blogs like NM. I haven’t even waited for all his pix to load, I must have seen thousands of them already, it’s all a blur.”
Note to Nick: next time, better post your pics before the event, OK?
Bangkok or bust, Part 1
“Argonaut”
That why the quoted sentance began with: “An elderly artist and village teacher, Ajarn Vichak, made an impressive Tie-Dye work,…”
Thank you, but i have barely enough education to know that Tie-Dye is not magic but technique.
And as to magic rituals, this is part of Thai culture everywhere. From Bramanistic Palace rituals to village mediums, or the PAD surrounding the equestrian statue with sanitary napkins of menstruating female PAD members, or, in this case, of Democrat Party officials trying to counter the curse with sacred water.
Or, in the west, we have rituals in which wine is symbolically transformed into blood…
You will have to life with it – rituals are integral part of human culture, and haven’t hindered us in developing electric power, automobiles, and whatever else.
The scourge of Burma, Part 6
Your memoir is truly gripping.With more details to each chapter, this should become a book.Please,keep up your excellent story-telling.
Speculation on the popularity of the Thai monarchy
I think there’s one big obstacle that trumps all others in preventing repeal of LM. Open discussion about the role of the institution is not feared so much as open discussion about what happened about 64 years ago.
Speculation on the popularity of the Thai monarchy
‘I’m sure in this country [Thailand] it is still 80% to 90%. And in this 80% or 90% there are some very, very loyal real monarchists or real royalists, perhaps 40-50-60%. The rest don’t see any disadvantages in living under the monarchy.’
Clever Anand. A diplomat at his best. NM readers should read this paragraph again.
“History will not forgive us…”
This is an alarming picture for those of us old enough to remember 6 р╕Хр╕╕р╕ер╕▓
Bangkok or bust, Part 1
Many PAD protesters were also offered money. My condo block lost many security guards over several months in 2008 because they kept leaving to join the protest and make 1000 baht per day as ‘PAD guards’. Those who weren’t willing to wield makeshift weapons as ‘PAD guards’ were lured by 500 baht per day simply for attending the PAD protests.
As someone mentioned earlier, it’s normal in Thailand for protesters of all colours and persuasions to be paid, because frequently they must give up their current job (and hence income) to join the protest. It’s specious for people to criticize the UDD for compensating some of their protesters when the PAD did exactly the same, for the same reasons — compensation of lost salary, transportation and accommodation costs, and yes, for both colours, sometimes simply to be there even if the person doesn’t understand the cause they’re protesting about. BOTH COLOURS DO IT. End of.
Bangkok or bust, Part 1
Hello,
nice photos indeed.
Still I pity these people if they really believe someone like Taksin is going to improve anything in Thailand. So the nation and the Bangkok post are biased? well I remember very well how unbiased taksin’s press was as he was in power.
I remember all the trials against journalists that this “lover of freedom and democracy” did, more than any other politicians.
The richest goes for the “class war” what a joke!
Hope this sad story will end soon.
Speculation on the popularity of the Thai monarchy
Aladdin,
“After every journalist writes, “the revered Thai king”, they should always add the disclaimer: “the penalty for criticism of the king or the royal family is 15 years imprisonment”.
I suggest New Mandala starts a movement and disseminates this to the worlds press.
Maybe T-Shirts too?
Is advertising the lese-majeste law an act of lese-majeste?
As Arlo Guthrie famously said: If two people do it they’ll think their faggots, but if three people do it, then it’s a movement!
Bangkok or bust, Part 1
“…where he dunked a piece of canvas into a bowl of blood. When the cloth dried a meditating Buddha appeared.”
It wasn’t magic Nick, that’s a standard tie-die technique using wax (but not usually blood!)
incidentally same technique David Blaine uses with the ashes and soap is this is your card?…on my arm trick!
All of which is also my comment on the Red/Yellow Brahmin shenanigans.
How can one expect evolving political consciousness when party faithfuls are still employing astrologers/witch-doctors/kids party magicians. What would Lenin/Marx or Gi have to say about these quaint practices?