Asia Times online: On the prospects for more coups:
Anand P: “The army is not that stupid. They know they bungled the last one and the coups in the past have never been able to resolve the nation’s problems.”
Why, then, does the omniscient one keep signing off on them???
Frank Lee – 68
I think our discussion is all over the place, I think I will just make a point on your response and we should just leave it at that.
1. To be brief, I don’t see how the article clears Suriya. In any case, as I said, he has managed to keep dodging court for years with dodgy medical complaints, hasn’t he?
I really have no objective on whether how you choose to analyze it, but for me, Bangkokbiz was the first news media that brought up the CTX case, and end up publishing an apologize letter because of the misinterpretation which result in the drop of charge on importer. However, the same charge on the buyer (aka Mr Suriya as minister of transportation) did not got drop the same way, which I see this as an unfair judgment from the court based on analogy that if the selling didnt make any wrong doing (inflate price or unfair term of service) then the buyer has all the right to make the purchase. However, my stance on the court is that I strongly believe that the Thai court is as tainted with corruption and manipulation as with any other public institution.
2. Didn’t Tacky Thaksin make it clear that villages that didn’t vote for his TRT would be on the end of the line for help. This is straight out of Singapore’s un-democratic political model and it would not be tolerated (much) in Australia, for example.
Case in point: Labor Minister Ros Kelly was forced to resign for proposing a similar system of rewards.
Anyway, yes I vaguely remembered something along the line, but to my understanding from listen to the whole thing (sorry but I cannot provide the whole quotation as it has been a long while so this will be all from my memory), Thaksin was talking about if people dont vote for him and somehow he doesnt get to form the government then the same popular policy would disappear but the media interpret as not voting for me, no money to you.
3. Thanks for the explanation re “Democracy is not my goal” – but, to me, it doesn’t sound very convincing.
I just explained it, whether you’d like to believe or not is entirely up to you.
3. My point is that the Reds CANNOT move beyond Thaksin until they have PUBLICLY reject association with him – and unless Chaturon did so on Tuesday night, I don’t believe any of them have. Until then, Tacky is still the Big Boss and no amount of Red Shirt propaganda is going to make other people believe it. All the Reds I know seem to be in denial about this, a sure sign that they have been programmed with Red propaganda and can be relied on to respond on cue with a knee-jerk reaction.
Again, I agreed that the red should distance themselves from Thaksin and to show that this is the movement to genuinely remove the old system and not restating another dictator. However, the red is using Thaksin as an icon to show how the old system is rotting the country. They have to show that the Thai jurisdiction is indeed double standard and manipulative, and the easiest way to do it is to show the victim of the system aka Thaksin asset case Vs. Newin’s rubber sapling case.
4. BTW: Now Tacky is promising hundreds of km. of mass transit projects for us here in Bangkok. For the record, in six years he added ZERO km. of mass transport begun by the last Democrat led government.
I dont know whether you know this but the MRT was initiate by Thaksin when we was the Transportation minister back during Chuan government term 2. Furthermore the motor way to Suvannaphummi was also his idea, to say that he add zero km. is a bit too hash.
Isn’t it a question of living with the monarchy rather than under the monarchy? I suspect no Thais (or Brits) have a problem with the latter.
A(nother) constitutional amendment would be preferable to a coup or a revolution but the clock is ticking.
As long as the commensual relationship instituted by Sarit of monarchy and military pervades.
I strongly suspect this is the prime target of Doktor (ex) Police Colonel Thaksin and his class 10 cohorts.
Unfortunately neither side is likely to blink or compromise, since compromise (and corresponding loss of face) are a cultural Nietzchean Abyss.
Will the meek inherit the earth in the middle ground between the two warring sides? History suggests not.
1. To be brief, I don’t see how the article clears Suriya. In any case, as I said, he has managed to keep dodging court for years with dodgy medical complaints, hasn’t he?
2. Didn’t Tacky Thaksin make it clear that villages that didn’t vote for his TRT would be on the end of the line for help. This is straight out of Singapore’s un-democratic political model and it would not be tolerated (much) in Australia, for example.
Case in point: Labor Minister Ros Kelly was forced to resign for proposing a similar system of rewards.
3. Thanks for the explanation re “Democracy is not my goal” – but, to me, it doesn’t sound very convincing.
3. My point is that the Reds CANNOT move beyond Thaksin until they have PUBLICLY reject association with him – and unless Chaturon did so on Tuesday night, I don’t believe any of them have. Until then, Tacky is still the Big Boss and no amount of Red Shirt propaganda is going to make other people believe it. All the Reds I know seem to be in denial about this, a sure sign that they have been programmed with Red propaganda and can be relied on to respond on cue with a knee-jerk reaction.
4. BTW: Now Tacky is promising hundreds of km. of mass transit projects for us here in Bangkok. For the record, in six years he added ZERO km. of mass transport begun by the last Democrat led government.
Hi, Hla Oo: No one is tired of reading your stories. They are well-written and the detail is very authentic. Your on-the-ground view of how modern Burma operates and how things and people go in and out is very insightful. Thank you for taking the time to write these pieces. Chris Coles
Dear Michael, I think you need a reading comprehension course. You said Elroy wasn’t referring to Thai society in his comment using the word draconian. His exact phrase was “this would not happen in a modern, non-draconian society.” Meaning Thailand is a draconian society. You can’t twist that away.
Also, when you say objective analysis does not support my contention that this site is biased towards the Reds, whose objective analysis is that?
Yours?
Do you have any made-up statistics to go with your “objective analysis?”
Oh, chris, come on. Do you really think China is going to support a secessionist movement in Thailand when it is struggling with its own secessionist/independence/autonomous movements in Tibet, Xinjiang etc?
How do you think the rest of ASEAN and East Asia would view China if it took sides in a Thai secessionist conflict?
You’re dreaming, Chris. Pure fantasyland.
And by the way, most Thai investment in China is coming from the big corporations based in Bangkok. Why would they sacrifice that to sell more lychees in Isan?
WLH: You’re certainly right about “standards of royalty the world over”. Given the stuff I imagine the likes of the Saudi royalty get up to, I can well believe it.
How about if we narrow it down to “standards of constitutional monarchies the world over”? Now how does it look?
It would indeed be perfect if he keeps out of politics when he comes to power. Mind you, given Abhisit’s inability to get the police chief he wants, the signs don’t look good.
Does it matter what my gender or ethnicity is or if I am not born and bred Burmese which I am? Does it not only reflect on your own prejudices?
Is it so strange that I enjoy the stories but smell a rat from the beginning with your ‘eye witness’ account of U Thant’s funeral? A ripping yarn is still a ripping yarn, and that’s what Burmese kids grow up with. They do realise it’s all made up.
And yes, I do look forward to ‘your take’ on our national hero and father of the Tatmadaw and independence Aung San , and his heroic daughter leading the ‘second struggle for independence’ as she has phrased it, this time from the living hell of military yoke. How you lot try to pass the buck to and discredit those who can’t defend themselves and those still being persecuted and incarcerated. How you are set to annihilate or drive the NLD underground as they did with the others, Burman and ethnic alike, from the time of independence. How you started the civil war and carried on, all the time blaming everyone but yourselves and portraying yourselves as the great heroes picking up the mantle of Aung San. How you now try to disown and distance yourselves from him and your godfather Ne Win in order to build up your own unenviable image. Have you lot looked at yourselves in the mirror lately? And how do you people sleep at night?
Discussion of the prince seldom seems to make a rational division between his personal eccentricities and his fitness for leadership — probably because they are related, of course, but both Thais and interested expats seem to conflate the completely.
By the standards of royalty the world over, the prince is not all that eccentric. Seriously, how do you expect a man who is permitted to have consorts by tradition to not be a bit promiscuous? Either eliminate the consort system, or shut up about his multiple partners and philandering. It’s hypocritical to expect monogamy when the system itself allows polygamy.
As for the motorcades, the poodle with military rank, the lavish use of state funds, the 7-star hotel suites, the borrowing of fighter jets — again, this is all encouraged by the Thai royalist system. I am tired of Thais acting shocked that a man who is given access to an untaxed, unquestioned, USD34 billion treasure chest and carte blanche to ignore laws turns out to be socially maladjusted. The prince is the exact product of the system. You don’t like one, then fix the other.
As for his rumored acts of criminality, diplomatic liability, violence and possible homicide — well, we just don’t know and can’t because we made him above the law. Accept this, or change the laws.
I am strangely grateful to the prince for showing Thailand (despite its refusal to see, or even look) that a forcibly revered, powerful, protected, cash-rich, legally unaccountable royal institution can create forcibly revered, powerful, protected, cash-rich, legally unaccountable monarchs.
And wouldn’t it be perfect if he became a decent if ceremonial king, surprising the naysayers, keeping out of politics, and providing an example of someone who can grow up and change, rather than be perfect and superhuman from day one? Such a king could teach Thais a lesson that even Rama IX could not: “It’s never too late.”
Michelle, fascinating work, keep it up – the notion of “udomkan” is inherently ambiguous and relative, but nonetheless powerful.
As for complaints of Frank Lee and Stan G on my piece, well, it was simply a description and an attempt to understand, not a dissertation. If you want to do something better, or “more balanced,” then make an effort yourselves beyond the luxury of commenting on others attempts to understand.
I think the monarchist percentage in Britain is higher than he suspects. I also think he’s missing the important point about the British monarchy. It’s not personalised. No one thinks the Queen holds the country together. Mostly they want a monarchy because it represents the country’s heritage (and is probably all that stands between them and President Blair). You don’t get a great deal of deference from such thinking, but at the same time because the personality of the King or Queen is not really an issue, succession is not an issue. That’s what gives the British monarchy its stability.
Meanwhile, the greater the personality cult the greater the issue of succession becomes. LM, by contributing to the personality cult, contributes to the resulting insecurities that come with the changeover.
Yes, Ferrara is not centering his analysis/dialogue directly on the monarchy and role of the monarchy in Thailand’s situation……his discussion is more centered around the role of the elderly “retired” general who is the Head of the Privy Council, the Privy Council itself and the network surrounding the monarchy. I would guess the reason Ferrara omits any direct analysis and discussion of the monarch himself and the “monarchy” is that it is illegal to have such a discussion in Thailand and there are draconian penalties and prison terms for those who engage publicly in such discussions.
I think we get that kind of treatment in North Korea, fortunately, we dont have concentration like them. However, its agreed that its very hard to gauge the popularity of the monarch with enforcement of lese majeste.
Is this a typo when Anand says ?:
“To situate himself outside the country and start inciting REsurrection in the country”.
Does he mean “INsurrection” ? There’s an important difference.
And Dom Nardi @1 – good point re. the LM laws.
But how many Thai shops or retaurants, in countries outside Thailand, has anyone ever seen, over many years, where there is no picture or statue of members of the Thai Royal Family ?
I only remember one.
So this may be at least a rough indication of popularity, given the absence of scientific polling due to LM law.
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Speculation on the popularity of the Thai monarchy
Asia Times online: On the prospects for more coups:
Anand P: “The army is not that stupid. They know they bungled the last one and the coups in the past have never been able to resolve the nation’s problems.”
Why, then, does the omniscient one keep signing off on them???
Thai style democracy?
Frank Lee – 68
I think our discussion is all over the place, I think I will just make a point on your response and we should just leave it at that.
1. To be brief, I don’t see how the article clears Suriya. In any case, as I said, he has managed to keep dodging court for years with dodgy medical complaints, hasn’t he?
I really have no objective on whether how you choose to analyze it, but for me, Bangkokbiz was the first news media that brought up the CTX case, and end up publishing an apologize letter because of the misinterpretation which result in the drop of charge on importer. However, the same charge on the buyer (aka Mr Suriya as minister of transportation) did not got drop the same way, which I see this as an unfair judgment from the court based on analogy that if the selling didnt make any wrong doing (inflate price or unfair term of service) then the buyer has all the right to make the purchase. However, my stance on the court is that I strongly believe that the Thai court is as tainted with corruption and manipulation as with any other public institution.
2. Didn’t Tacky Thaksin make it clear that villages that didn’t vote for his TRT would be on the end of the line for help. This is straight out of Singapore’s un-democratic political model and it would not be tolerated (much) in Australia, for example.
Case in point: Labor Minister Ros Kelly was forced to resign for proposing a similar system of rewards.
Anyway, yes I vaguely remembered something along the line, but to my understanding from listen to the whole thing (sorry but I cannot provide the whole quotation as it has been a long while so this will be all from my memory), Thaksin was talking about if people dont vote for him and somehow he doesnt get to form the government then the same popular policy would disappear but the media interpret as not voting for me, no money to you.
3. Thanks for the explanation re “Democracy is not my goal” – but, to me, it doesn’t sound very convincing.
I just explained it, whether you’d like to believe or not is entirely up to you.
3. My point is that the Reds CANNOT move beyond Thaksin until they have PUBLICLY reject association with him – and unless Chaturon did so on Tuesday night, I don’t believe any of them have. Until then, Tacky is still the Big Boss and no amount of Red Shirt propaganda is going to make other people believe it. All the Reds I know seem to be in denial about this, a sure sign that they have been programmed with Red propaganda and can be relied on to respond on cue with a knee-jerk reaction.
Again, I agreed that the red should distance themselves from Thaksin and to show that this is the movement to genuinely remove the old system and not restating another dictator. However, the red is using Thaksin as an icon to show how the old system is rotting the country. They have to show that the Thai jurisdiction is indeed double standard and manipulative, and the easiest way to do it is to show the victim of the system aka Thaksin asset case Vs. Newin’s rubber sapling case.
4. BTW: Now Tacky is promising hundreds of km. of mass transit projects for us here in Bangkok. For the record, in six years he added ZERO km. of mass transport begun by the last Democrat led government.
I dont know whether you know this but the MRT was initiate by Thaksin when we was the Transportation minister back during Chuan government term 2. Furthermore the motor way to Suvannaphummi was also his idea, to say that he add zero km. is a bit too hash.
Speculation on the popularity of the Thai monarchy
Isn’t it a question of living with the monarchy rather than under the monarchy? I suspect no Thais (or Brits) have a problem with the latter.
A(nother) constitutional amendment would be preferable to a coup or a revolution but the clock is ticking.
As long as the commensual relationship instituted by Sarit of monarchy and military pervades.
I strongly suspect this is the prime target of Doktor (ex) Police Colonel Thaksin and his class 10 cohorts.
Unfortunately neither side is likely to blink or compromise, since compromise (and corresponding loss of face) are a cultural Nietzchean Abyss.
Will the meek inherit the earth in the middle ground between the two warring sides? History suggests not.
Thai style democracy?
1. To be brief, I don’t see how the article clears Suriya. In any case, as I said, he has managed to keep dodging court for years with dodgy medical complaints, hasn’t he?
2. Didn’t Tacky Thaksin make it clear that villages that didn’t vote for his TRT would be on the end of the line for help. This is straight out of Singapore’s un-democratic political model and it would not be tolerated (much) in Australia, for example.
Case in point: Labor Minister Ros Kelly was forced to resign for proposing a similar system of rewards.
3. Thanks for the explanation re “Democracy is not my goal” – but, to me, it doesn’t sound very convincing.
3. My point is that the Reds CANNOT move beyond Thaksin until they have PUBLICLY reject association with him – and unless Chaturon did so on Tuesday night, I don’t believe any of them have. Until then, Tacky is still the Big Boss and no amount of Red Shirt propaganda is going to make other people believe it. All the Reds I know seem to be in denial about this, a sure sign that they have been programmed with Red propaganda and can be relied on to respond on cue with a knee-jerk reaction.
4. BTW: Now Tacky is promising hundreds of km. of mass transit projects for us here in Bangkok. For the record, in six years he added ZERO km. of mass transport begun by the last Democrat led government.
The scourge of Burma, Part 5
Hi, Hla Oo: No one is tired of reading your stories. They are well-written and the detail is very authentic. Your on-the-ground view of how modern Burma operates and how things and people go in and out is very insightful. Thank you for taking the time to write these pieces. Chris Coles
Thai style democracy?
@michael #55
Dear Michael, I think you need a reading comprehension course. You said Elroy wasn’t referring to Thai society in his comment using the word draconian. His exact phrase was “this would not happen in a modern, non-draconian society.” Meaning Thailand is a draconian society. You can’t twist that away.
Also, when you say objective analysis does not support my contention that this site is biased towards the Reds, whose objective analysis is that?
Yours?
Do you have any made-up statistics to go with your “objective analysis?”
Red soi, Red city: A brief commentary from the streets
@chris beale #33.
Oh, chris, come on. Do you really think China is going to support a secessionist movement in Thailand when it is struggling with its own secessionist/independence/autonomous movements in Tibet, Xinjiang etc?
How do you think the rest of ASEAN and East Asia would view China if it took sides in a Thai secessionist conflict?
You’re dreaming, Chris. Pure fantasyland.
And by the way, most Thai investment in China is coming from the big corporations based in Bangkok. Why would they sacrifice that to sell more lychees in Isan?
The scourge of Burma, Part 6
If these stories are true this man is not trustworthy. If they are false…
I guess this was your bid to put the New Mandala at the tip of the bling?
Sulaiman on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
It could have been wind
Sulaiman on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
WLH: You’re certainly right about “standards of royalty the world over”. Given the stuff I imagine the likes of the Saudi royalty get up to, I can well believe it.
How about if we narrow it down to “standards of constitutional monarchies the world over”? Now how does it look?
It would indeed be perfect if he keeps out of politics when he comes to power. Mind you, given Abhisit’s inability to get the police chief he wants, the signs don’t look good.
The scourge of Burma, Part 3
Hla Oo
Does it matter what my gender or ethnicity is or if I am not born and bred Burmese which I am? Does it not only reflect on your own prejudices?
Is it so strange that I enjoy the stories but smell a rat from the beginning with your ‘eye witness’ account of U Thant’s funeral? A ripping yarn is still a ripping yarn, and that’s what Burmese kids grow up with. They do realise it’s all made up.
And yes, I do look forward to ‘your take’ on our national hero and father of the Tatmadaw and independence Aung San , and his heroic daughter leading the ‘second struggle for independence’ as she has phrased it, this time from the living hell of military yoke. How you lot try to pass the buck to and discredit those who can’t defend themselves and those still being persecuted and incarcerated. How you are set to annihilate or drive the NLD underground as they did with the others, Burman and ethnic alike, from the time of independence. How you started the civil war and carried on, all the time blaming everyone but yourselves and portraying yourselves as the great heroes picking up the mantle of Aung San. How you now try to disown and distance yourselves from him and your godfather Ne Win in order to build up your own unenviable image. Have you lot looked at yourselves in the mirror lately? And how do you people sleep at night?
The scourge of Burma, Part 5
NM readers and also Andrew and Nich must be sick of me by now. Only Part-6 left and I won’t be writing again for a very, very long time, I promise.
The scourge of Burma, Part 3
AP,
You are not a Burmese. Probably an Australian with a deep interest in Burma and her long-suffering people.
But I sincerely believe you are a Scholar and a Gentleman.
Thanks for your valuable comments as they made me understand myself more.
The scourge of Burma, Part 5
Epic.
Sulaiman on Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn
Discussion of the prince seldom seems to make a rational division between his personal eccentricities and his fitness for leadership — probably because they are related, of course, but both Thais and interested expats seem to conflate the completely.
By the standards of royalty the world over, the prince is not all that eccentric. Seriously, how do you expect a man who is permitted to have consorts by tradition to not be a bit promiscuous? Either eliminate the consort system, or shut up about his multiple partners and philandering. It’s hypocritical to expect monogamy when the system itself allows polygamy.
As for the motorcades, the poodle with military rank, the lavish use of state funds, the 7-star hotel suites, the borrowing of fighter jets — again, this is all encouraged by the Thai royalist system. I am tired of Thais acting shocked that a man who is given access to an untaxed, unquestioned, USD34 billion treasure chest and carte blanche to ignore laws turns out to be socially maladjusted. The prince is the exact product of the system. You don’t like one, then fix the other.
As for his rumored acts of criminality, diplomatic liability, violence and possible homicide — well, we just don’t know and can’t because we made him above the law. Accept this, or change the laws.
I am strangely grateful to the prince for showing Thailand (despite its refusal to see, or even look) that a forcibly revered, powerful, protected, cash-rich, legally unaccountable royal institution can create forcibly revered, powerful, protected, cash-rich, legally unaccountable monarchs.
And wouldn’t it be perfect if he became a decent if ceremonial king, surprising the naysayers, keeping out of politics, and providing an example of someone who can grow up and change, rather than be perfect and superhuman from day one? Such a king could teach Thais a lesson that even Rama IX could not: “It’s never too late.”
Red soi, Red city: A brief commentary from the streets
Michelle, fascinating work, keep it up – the notion of “udomkan” is inherently ambiguous and relative, but nonetheless powerful.
As for complaints of Frank Lee and Stan G on my piece, well, it was simply a description and an attempt to understand, not a dissertation. If you want to do something better, or “more balanced,” then make an effort yourselves beyond the luxury of commenting on others attempts to understand.
Speculation on the popularity of the Thai monarchy
I think the monarchist percentage in Britain is higher than he suspects. I also think he’s missing the important point about the British monarchy. It’s not personalised. No one thinks the Queen holds the country together. Mostly they want a monarchy because it represents the country’s heritage (and is probably all that stands between them and President Blair). You don’t get a great deal of deference from such thinking, but at the same time because the personality of the King or Queen is not really an issue, succession is not an issue. That’s what gives the British monarchy its stability.
Meanwhile, the greater the personality cult the greater the issue of succession becomes. LM, by contributing to the personality cult, contributes to the resulting insecurities that come with the changeover.
More from Ferrara on Thai politics
Yes, Ferrara is not centering his analysis/dialogue directly on the monarchy and role of the monarchy in Thailand’s situation……his discussion is more centered around the role of the elderly “retired” general who is the Head of the Privy Council, the Privy Council itself and the network surrounding the monarchy. I would guess the reason Ferrara omits any direct analysis and discussion of the monarch himself and the “monarchy” is that it is illegal to have such a discussion in Thailand and there are draconian penalties and prison terms for those who engage publicly in such discussions.
Speculation on the popularity of the Thai monarchy
I think we get that kind of treatment in North Korea, fortunately, we dont have concentration like them. However, its agreed that its very hard to gauge the popularity of the monarch with enforcement of lese majeste.
Love the monarch or else?
Speculation on the popularity of the Thai monarchy
Is this a typo when Anand says ?:
“To situate himself outside the country and start inciting REsurrection in the country”.
Does he mean “INsurrection” ? There’s an important difference.
And Dom Nardi @1 – good point re. the LM laws.
But how many Thai shops or retaurants, in countries outside Thailand, has anyone ever seen, over many years, where there is no picture or statue of members of the Thai Royal Family ?
I only remember one.
So this may be at least a rough indication of popularity, given the absence of scientific polling due to LM law.