The Aussie who couldn’t even spell “CTX” was most likely a link from the link you posted which I went to because your link was pretty much a waste of time.
In any case, the politics of division is truly alive and well. By now, if anyone asks me in Thai, “Are you a Red Shirt or a Yellow Shirt”, I can be about 90% sure they are a Red Shirt themselves because the mentality this reveals is “If you’re not Red, you’re Yellow.”
Not much space allowed for moderates, is there?
BTW: I’m still waiting for someone to try and explain Thaksin’s infamous statement, “Democracy is not my goal.”
Come on Red Shirts! Show some integrity and PUBLICLY reject Thaksin “The ‘Mother of All Dividers” and his lies and his money and his leadership.
I could not have put it better myself. The red-shirt/yellow-shirt tug-of-war is only a malaise of the real disease that is rotting the body of this nation from the inside out: a rather kitschy personality cult, protected at all costs by a pack of very well rewarded rabid dogs. Abhisit and Thaksin are irrelevant.
The world out there does not care for fairy tales. Unfortunately for these latterday Romanovs, the writing is on the wall, and they know it.
The wounded beast will lash out one last time. The streets again flowing with the blood of the people, although not of their own accord, but by fillicide as in 1976. That is the day the people of Thailand will cross the Rubicon, and see that it really does come down to choosing their own future as opposed to being chained to a manufactured history. I hope I’m wrong.
As far as I know, SPU near me was closed for a few days to prevent any violent rampage and property damage by the Red Shirts. It seems their reputation precedes them, which plays into the hands of anyone who might be looking for an excuse to close.
One of the great tragedies of Thailand’s modern history is that there was a young charismatic leader who could have single-handedly fostered the legacy of a functional democracy, had he so chosen. But he chose instead to devote his long reign to the preservation of a rich autocratic society of pomp, privilege and corruption, with the profound trappings of an absolute monarchy in all but name.
The issue is not, as Khun Weiss, suggests: “Will a king’s death kill Thai democracy ?” The issue is whether democracy will at last have some chance to survive when the great father who suffers his children to rot in jails for lese majeste, finally shuffles off this mortal coil.
I did not criticised anyone’s (including your’s) writing. I said – “A good combination of both can make a good story or sensationalised news. However, you would agree with me that this type of story/news would be relevant to some other avenue instead of this website.”
I totally agree with you that as a resident of this country you can enjoy the liberty of freedom of free speech. It is also true that polarised views will never result in open debate. I am glad that you can enjoy all these liberties and freedom in democratic Australia.
Now, let me ask this question to you. Do you think similar freedom should be available to Burmese people as well? Or, they should be shot at or put in the prison for expressing their views? Do you support freedom of your past country? Do you condone military rule and dictatorship in Burma? Do you agree that Ang San Suu Kyi is the elected leader of Burma? Should your birth country have democracy?
These are some of the hard facts that I asked you to consider while writing about your birth country. As much as your past soldier life or your past of being able to kill someone (Chapter-1) could be glorious for you, you can not ignore the pain and suffering of people of your birth country.
On a lighter side. Why you have to provide references from other readers to prove how good is your writing? I think proof is in the pudding and everyone has different taste buds :).
I seem to recall His Majesty the King also making a point of driving himself after his annual birthday speeches, in a Honda, until about 2004. Perhaps it was all for show, but since his role is largely ceremonial and iconic, the show matters (especially in making a contrast to, say, members of his family who travel in huge caravans to go shopping at Central World).
As for “The One” — it’s a pipe dream to think that the change will come from one man, rather than a generational process. We’re probably not going to see another Rama IV in our lifetime. It’s going to be ten men, of which Thaksin is merely the first, each contributing one specific change. Thaksin’s legacy is that he woke up the majority out of their complacent Buddhist-wheel stupor of compliance with injustice. He’s too autocratic to contribute much else (remember his hatred of the free press? I sure do).
The next step could well be from the Crown Prince, or an Abhisit-like educated statesman, or whoever replaces Prem. But it’s going to be One Step, not The One.
Tarrin at 50 re TXC (sic) propaganda:
Yeah, right – and just where is “here” I wonder.
Come on bro’ – the Aussie wanker couldn’t even get the name CTX right.
Here as here in newmandala and to people like BKK lawyer, st22 , me and other people who has been trying to counter your argument.
Anyway, why is this CTX got to do with the Aussie anyway????
The link that I give was a direct page to Bangkokbiz about they have made mistakes about the CTX case, that’s why the court drop the charge from the importer (I dont recall his name but he’s Sia something)
A few days after the Suchinda Kraprayoon coup in 1992 I was in a business meeting and discussions quickly moved to Suchinda’s grab for power. I must have been very vocally upset because a senior businessman I respect immediately intervened with: “Calm down Vichai. I personally know General Suchinda and General Suchinda is a very modest man. Do you know General Suchinda drives by himself with an old Toyota to work everyday?”
I still recall how quickly I was disarmed at that time. Brilliant! A top general driving a second hand Toyota to work could only be honest, modest and impervious to the temptations of power.
But of course my sudden love affair with Suchinda did not endure for the week . . . because in truth Suchinda was not incorruptible, was not modest and was very power hungry.
Comment #3 ” . . . They’d kill him, of course.” That will surely happen if ‘The One’ was so stupid as to reveal himself to his enemies prematurely. More than anything else ‘The One’ must first be deeply motivated by an epiphany that he is truly ‘The One’ that could move Thailand forward and deliver what the country needs. To have that motivation must come from unknown deep personal experience(s) of deprivation, injustice and/or neglect amidst the prevalent corruption from whence the anger builds the inspiration to lead the change.
“Abhisit is not your enemy, he needs your votes to win in the next election,”
No of course not! Abhisit is just a puppet of our enemies. And by choosing to be so, he’s telling us “I don’t need your votes nor winning an election to become a PM.” Very disappointed for somenone who used to vote for his party.
Tiptop remove ‘incorruptible’ from the character requirements of ‘The One’ and we have a very very serious vulnerability issue that could be exploited by the military, by the entrenched . . . uh uh amarts, by the righteous . . . uh uh yellows, and yes of course by a very indignant Vichai N.
Incorruptibility is the moral shield that could repel anyone who dares get in the way . . . of progress.
Concerning your comment about whether my writings are suitable or not for the New Mandala is not your or my decision to make as that responsibility is solely in the hands of our good professors Andrew and Nicholas.
I am not writing this series chapter by chapter. The whole thing is written and already with NM and they are releasing it part by part.
In my humble opinion, in this propaganda war about Burma, there is the Generals own New Light of Myanmar on one extreme and the likes of Sorrow and NED funded Irrawaddy on the opposite extreme.
Our ANU funded New Mandala is right in the middle and that is the reason they let me write, I reckoned. I am a tax-paying Burma-born Australian and I am entitled to air my view about my birth country on this truly Australian web site.
Please also allow me to repeat the comment of Mr Nick Nostitz.
“Your unique view would and could add much to the usually sickeningly one-sided and polemic Burma debate. For me, your posts here have been most enlightening and educating.”
Based on your comments I now assume that you are obviously on the Irrawaddy’s side. So just throw mud on me, mate, I don’t really care if the shit stick or not. Just please do not patronize me!
My only concern is that you know about my race and my background and my nationality but I do not know yours. That makes this fight unfairly one-sided.
Been trying to post this for a couple of days, but it hasn’t appeared, so trying again:
Mungo, it is difficult to know how seriously I should take your request. This is several reasons. One is that you have changed the terms of what I originally wrote. You ask: “give a few examples of mega-rich political strongmen who have lead successful ‘class wars’/social movements of the poor…”. But that is not what I wrote about which was: “he’s rich so he can’t be a real supporter/leader of the downtrodden” is simply twaddle.” Not the same grounds. A second reason is that you imply that the people who were out yesterday were subsidized, meaning paid. That puts you in the camp of ideologues like Thepthai Saenpong (see here http://us.asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pundit-blog/red-shirts-take-to-the-bangkok-streets), where the crazy claim is that yesterday’s cheering crowds were paid 500 baht each. Your other claims in your posts parrot Abhisit and his spokesmen.
But let’s try, with a few examples of support for and leadership of social movements of the downtrodden (of course, one might anticipate all kinds of debate over all the terms just used). In Thailand, right-wing social movements such as the village scouts and their ilk were said to be movements to protect the nation – essentially fascist – and were symbolically led and strongly supported by the richest monarch in the world. If one looks broadly at right-wing social movements that often get considerable support from the poor and downtrodden, they tend to have support from rich business people. Salvador Allende came from the Chilean upper class. Engels couldn’t be described as short of a quid. Quite a number of the leaders of the suffragette movement were from the very wealthiest of families and women were certainly downtrodden. Anti-colonial movements had wealthy leaders and supporters (Nguyen Than Hien is an example in Vietnam and perhaps Rizal in the Philippines, and there were similar “national capitalists” in many colonies). Chinese capitalists, some of them very wealthy, extensively supported communists and nationalists in China. The Jewish and Zionist movements for self-determination and a homeland drew heavily on the support and leadership of their wealthy compatriots.
I believe we are getting into an argument which will not lead us anywhere. There is a fine line between fact and fiction. A good combination of both can make a good story or sensationalised news. However, you would agree with me that this type of story/news would be relevant to some other avenue instead of this website.
Hla Oo – I believe that you have good thoughts for your country and liberation of your country from military dictatorship. However, Moe Aung is right that your story and various postings have not shown this. You have made some really sharp and good comments for Thai postings, but not for Burma. So may be you can reflect this in your next chapters and present us a clear understanding of your views regarding military dictatorship in Burma. I trust whole world knows about situation and upcoming sham of election in Burma.
Also, the gory details of killing would only sensationalise and try to hide facts.
You also mentioned that you are writing a book regarding your experience in Burma. You can present your feelings as well as facts about military oppression in Burma. This will help people to see the real picture from people who were affected by this. Please do not let your past as a soldier or other connections with military generals (Chapter-1) cloud the reality.
You can also donate some of your income from this book to the welfare of people of Burma (not Generals of Burma).
It is as if the yellows have one half of a picture and the reds have the other half. If they ever put the 2 pieces togther then they would have a real awakening.
They may even understand why most people are not interested in either camp.
Thanks for taking the time to answer siammiddlepath, your feelings are understandable.
I shall leave the technical aspects of killing and maiming to the expert. Yes, explain that to the schoolboy in green and the monk in saffron so they won’t dare protest or rise up again. To the generals they may be communist or bogus respectively, and any notion of fairness and freedom deserves to be nipped in the bud. And they had already been assured that ‘when the army shoots it aims to hit’.
I wish your generals would give us the people a break so violence would never have to enter the equation. The reality however is that horrific state violence has been meted out by the same oufit (a change of cast but the same old performance ad infinitum ad nauseum since independence) to all and sundry, Burman as well as ethnic, with no let up, there just is no alternative. We must make sure the sacrifice this time will not be in vain. The people have no choice but to pick up the gauntlet.
siammiddlepath – I, too, share my view with you, the Coup of 2006 actually open my eyes. A point I want to add is that, Thailand is like a sick patient with complicated disease, unfortunately for this patient he cannot say what his symptom, he cant even show where its hurt, which make it extra difficult for doctor to make a treatment.
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Thai style democracy?
Tarrin at 61:
The Aussie who couldn’t even spell “CTX” was most likely a link from the link you posted which I went to because your link was pretty much a waste of time.
In any case, the politics of division is truly alive and well. By now, if anyone asks me in Thai, “Are you a Red Shirt or a Yellow Shirt”, I can be about 90% sure they are a Red Shirt themselves because the mentality this reveals is “If you’re not Red, you’re Yellow.”
Not much space allowed for moderates, is there?
BTW: I’m still waiting for someone to try and explain Thaksin’s infamous statement, “Democracy is not my goal.”
Come on Red Shirts! Show some integrity and PUBLICLY reject Thaksin “The ‘Mother of All Dividers” and his lies and his money and his leadership.
The “worst-case scenario”
Lek:
I could not have put it better myself. The red-shirt/yellow-shirt tug-of-war is only a malaise of the real disease that is rotting the body of this nation from the inside out: a rather kitschy personality cult, protected at all costs by a pack of very well rewarded rabid dogs. Abhisit and Thaksin are irrelevant.
The world out there does not care for fairy tales. Unfortunately for these latterday Romanovs, the writing is on the wall, and they know it.
The wounded beast will lash out one last time. The streets again flowing with the blood of the people, although not of their own accord, but by fillicide as in 1976. That is the day the people of Thailand will cross the Rubicon, and see that it really does come down to choosing their own future as opposed to being chained to a manufactured history. I hope I’m wrong.
Thai style democracy?
Tarrin a 61:
Don’t blame me – I followed your link to the Aussie.
“Drop the charges from the importer” (sic):
but not against Suriya, right?
Red soi, Red city: A brief commentary from the streets
Chris: depends which university.
As far as I know, SPU near me was closed for a few days to prevent any violent rampage and property damage by the Red Shirts. It seems their reputation precedes them, which plays into the hands of anyone who might be looking for an excuse to close.
The “worst-case scenario”
One of the great tragedies of Thailand’s modern history is that there was a young charismatic leader who could have single-handedly fostered the legacy of a functional democracy, had he so chosen. But he chose instead to devote his long reign to the preservation of a rich autocratic society of pomp, privilege and corruption, with the profound trappings of an absolute monarchy in all but name.
The issue is not, as Khun Weiss, suggests: “Will a king’s death kill Thai democracy ?” The issue is whether democracy will at last have some chance to survive when the great father who suffers his children to rot in jails for lese majeste, finally shuffles off this mortal coil.
Translation of The Economist on succession
When I click the link, I get a photo of a fern. Anyone else?
The scourge of Burma, Part 3
Hla Oo,
I did not criticised anyone’s (including your’s) writing. I said – “A good combination of both can make a good story or sensationalised news. However, you would agree with me that this type of story/news would be relevant to some other avenue instead of this website.”
I totally agree with you that as a resident of this country you can enjoy the liberty of freedom of free speech. It is also true that polarised views will never result in open debate. I am glad that you can enjoy all these liberties and freedom in democratic Australia.
Now, let me ask this question to you. Do you think similar freedom should be available to Burmese people as well? Or, they should be shot at or put in the prison for expressing their views? Do you support freedom of your past country? Do you condone military rule and dictatorship in Burma? Do you agree that Ang San Suu Kyi is the elected leader of Burma? Should your birth country have democracy?
These are some of the hard facts that I asked you to consider while writing about your birth country. As much as your past soldier life or your past of being able to kill someone (Chapter-1) could be glorious for you, you can not ignore the pain and suffering of people of your birth country.
On a lighter side. Why you have to provide references from other readers to prove how good is your writing? I think proof is in the pudding and everyone has different taste buds :).
The “worst-case scenario”
Vichai:
I seem to recall His Majesty the King also making a point of driving himself after his annual birthday speeches, in a Honda, until about 2004. Perhaps it was all for show, but since his role is largely ceremonial and iconic, the show matters (especially in making a contrast to, say, members of his family who travel in huge caravans to go shopping at Central World).
As for “The One” — it’s a pipe dream to think that the change will come from one man, rather than a generational process. We’re probably not going to see another Rama IV in our lifetime. It’s going to be ten men, of which Thaksin is merely the first, each contributing one specific change. Thaksin’s legacy is that he woke up the majority out of their complacent Buddhist-wheel stupor of compliance with injustice. He’s too autocratic to contribute much else (remember his hatred of the free press? I sure do).
The next step could well be from the Crown Prince, or an Abhisit-like educated statesman, or whoever replaces Prem. But it’s going to be One Step, not The One.
Thai style democracy?
Frank Lee – 52
Tarrin at 50 re TXC (sic) propaganda:
Yeah, right – and just where is “here” I wonder.
Come on bro’ – the Aussie wanker couldn’t even get the name CTX right.
Here as here in newmandala and to people like BKK lawyer, st22 , me and other people who has been trying to counter your argument.
Anyway, why is this CTX got to do with the Aussie anyway????
The link that I give was a direct page to Bangkokbiz about they have made mistakes about the CTX case, that’s why the court drop the charge from the importer (I dont recall his name but he’s Sia something)
The “worst-case scenario”
A personal anecdote about incorruptibility.
A few days after the Suchinda Kraprayoon coup in 1992 I was in a business meeting and discussions quickly moved to Suchinda’s grab for power. I must have been very vocally upset because a senior businessman I respect immediately intervened with: “Calm down Vichai. I personally know General Suchinda and General Suchinda is a very modest man. Do you know General Suchinda drives by himself with an old Toyota to work everyday?”
I still recall how quickly I was disarmed at that time. Brilliant! A top general driving a second hand Toyota to work could only be honest, modest and impervious to the temptations of power.
But of course my sudden love affair with Suchinda did not endure for the week . . . because in truth Suchinda was not incorruptible, was not modest and was very power hungry.
Comment #3 ” . . . They’d kill him, of course.” That will surely happen if ‘The One’ was so stupid as to reveal himself to his enemies prematurely. More than anything else ‘The One’ must first be deeply motivated by an epiphany that he is truly ‘The One’ that could move Thailand forward and deliver what the country needs. To have that motivation must come from unknown deep personal experience(s) of deprivation, injustice and/or neglect amidst the prevalent corruption from whence the anger builds the inspiration to lead the change.
Support for Reds from Bangkok at large
longway wrote:
“Abhisit is not your enemy, he needs your votes to win in the next election,”
No of course not! Abhisit is just a puppet of our enemies. And by choosing to be so, he’s telling us “I don’t need your votes nor winning an election to become a PM.” Very disappointed for somenone who used to vote for his party.
The “worst-case scenario”
Tiptop remove ‘incorruptible’ from the character requirements of ‘The One’ and we have a very very serious vulnerability issue that could be exploited by the military, by the entrenched . . . uh uh amarts, by the righteous . . . uh uh yellows, and yes of course by a very indignant Vichai N.
Incorruptibility is the moral shield that could repel anyone who dares get in the way . . . of progress.
The scourge of Burma, Part 3
Dear AP, thanks for your comments.
Concerning your comment about whether my writings are suitable or not for the New Mandala is not your or my decision to make as that responsibility is solely in the hands of our good professors Andrew and Nicholas.
I am not writing this series chapter by chapter. The whole thing is written and already with NM and they are releasing it part by part.
In my humble opinion, in this propaganda war about Burma, there is the Generals own New Light of Myanmar on one extreme and the likes of Sorrow and NED funded Irrawaddy on the opposite extreme.
Our ANU funded New Mandala is right in the middle and that is the reason they let me write, I reckoned. I am a tax-paying Burma-born Australian and I am entitled to air my view about my birth country on this truly Australian web site.
Please also allow me to repeat the comment of Mr Nick Nostitz.
“Your unique view would and could add much to the usually sickeningly one-sided and polemic Burma debate. For me, your posts here have been most enlightening and educating.”
http://www.newmandala.org/2010/01/06/china-and-the-wa/
Based on your comments I now assume that you are obviously on the Irrawaddy’s side. So just throw mud on me, mate, I don’t really care if the shit stick or not. Just please do not patronize me!
My only concern is that you know about my race and my background and my nationality but I do not know yours. That makes this fight unfairly one-sided.
Yours respectfully,
Support for Reds from Bangkok at large
Been trying to post this for a couple of days, but it hasn’t appeared, so trying again:
Mungo, it is difficult to know how seriously I should take your request. This is several reasons. One is that you have changed the terms of what I originally wrote. You ask: “give a few examples of mega-rich political strongmen who have lead successful ‘class wars’/social movements of the poor…”. But that is not what I wrote about which was: “he’s rich so he can’t be a real supporter/leader of the downtrodden” is simply twaddle.” Not the same grounds. A second reason is that you imply that the people who were out yesterday were subsidized, meaning paid. That puts you in the camp of ideologues like Thepthai Saenpong (see here http://us.asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pundit-blog/red-shirts-take-to-the-bangkok-streets), where the crazy claim is that yesterday’s cheering crowds were paid 500 baht each. Your other claims in your posts parrot Abhisit and his spokesmen.
But let’s try, with a few examples of support for and leadership of social movements of the downtrodden (of course, one might anticipate all kinds of debate over all the terms just used). In Thailand, right-wing social movements such as the village scouts and their ilk were said to be movements to protect the nation – essentially fascist – and were symbolically led and strongly supported by the richest monarch in the world. If one looks broadly at right-wing social movements that often get considerable support from the poor and downtrodden, they tend to have support from rich business people. Salvador Allende came from the Chilean upper class. Engels couldn’t be described as short of a quid. Quite a number of the leaders of the suffragette movement were from the very wealthiest of families and women were certainly downtrodden. Anti-colonial movements had wealthy leaders and supporters (Nguyen Than Hien is an example in Vietnam and perhaps Rizal in the Philippines, and there were similar “national capitalists” in many colonies). Chinese capitalists, some of them very wealthy, extensively supported communists and nationalists in China. The Jewish and Zionist movements for self-determination and a homeland drew heavily on the support and leadership of their wealthy compatriots.
The scourge of Burma, Part 3
Gents,
I believe we are getting into an argument which will not lead us anywhere. There is a fine line between fact and fiction. A good combination of both can make a good story or sensationalised news. However, you would agree with me that this type of story/news would be relevant to some other avenue instead of this website.
Hla Oo – I believe that you have good thoughts for your country and liberation of your country from military dictatorship. However, Moe Aung is right that your story and various postings have not shown this. You have made some really sharp and good comments for Thai postings, but not for Burma. So may be you can reflect this in your next chapters and present us a clear understanding of your views regarding military dictatorship in Burma. I trust whole world knows about situation and upcoming sham of election in Burma.
Also, the gory details of killing would only sensationalise and try to hide facts.
You also mentioned that you are writing a book regarding your experience in Burma. You can present your feelings as well as facts about military oppression in Burma. This will help people to see the real picture from people who were affected by this. Please do not let your past as a soldier or other connections with military generals (Chapter-1) cloud the reality.
You can also donate some of your income from this book to the welfare of people of Burma (not Generals of Burma).
God bless all.
Support for Reds from Bangkok at large
It is as if the yellows have one half of a picture and the reds have the other half. If they ever put the 2 pieces togther then they would have a real awakening.
They may even understand why most people are not interested in either camp.
Thanks for taking the time to answer siammiddlepath, your feelings are understandable.
The scourge of Burma, Part 4
Really enjoyed this episode. You do spin a ripping yarn, Hla Oo. Brilliant narrative style. Thanks for sharing.
The scourge of Burma, Part 3
Hla Oo
I shall leave the technical aspects of killing and maiming to the expert. Yes, explain that to the schoolboy in green and the monk in saffron so they won’t dare protest or rise up again. To the generals they may be communist or bogus respectively, and any notion of fairness and freedom deserves to be nipped in the bud. And they had already been assured that ‘when the army shoots it aims to hit’.
I wish your generals would give us the people a break so violence would never have to enter the equation. The reality however is that horrific state violence has been meted out by the same oufit (a change of cast but the same old performance ad infinitum ad nauseum since independence) to all and sundry, Burman as well as ethnic, with no let up, there just is no alternative. We must make sure the sacrifice this time will not be in vain. The people have no choice but to pick up the gauntlet.
Support for Reds from Bangkok at large
siammiddlepath – I, too, share my view with you, the Coup of 2006 actually open my eyes. A point I want to add is that, Thailand is like a sick patient with complicated disease, unfortunately for this patient he cannot say what his symptom, he cant even show where its hurt, which make it extra difficult for doctor to make a treatment.
The “worst-case scenario”
Addendum: I don’t believe Thaksin can achieve any of these 4 points, but maybe I’m wrong.