I’m very surprised that not a single person has noted the fact that Red is the colour in the current “Thai” flag which supposedly symbolises “the people”.
Even when Red-Shirt leaders were asked at the FCCT severeal months ago about why the colour Red was chosen, the reply from Veera was : “because it is not Yellow”.
Red of course is the dominant colour in the old flag of Siam, with a white elephant being the only other. There’s no Yellow.
As for support by Bangkokians for the Red Shirts can be seen during their rally/convoy along the streets of Bangkok today (20 March). A rare sight which may send shivers down the spines of Mark, and even SondhiL and Chamlong.
You see Bangkok has lots of working class people who are routinely oppressed by the ammat and the rally provides an opportunity for these oppressed people to show their might. Question: why can’t we see any photo of Thaksin ?
Yes, we can recall the PAD’s black magic. Recall the use of menstrual blood at the equestrian statue. We can also remember the rites performed by the current royals each year to make amends for their ancestor’s murder of King Taksin.
Michael. You are right that progress and liberation comes when whole country works as a well lubricated engine and every component knows it place. It will take time for any country that has such legacy baggage as Thailand as 14-16 years are not enough to bed down democratic system and thoughts in minds of people contributing to this system.
As far as comments on Abhisit’s statements are concerned. I would not trust, admire or react to a politician’s statement on it’s face value. As a person he is a scholar and has charismatic personality, he could not prove to be an effective opposition in past and seems to be just a figure in whole puppet show. So, his comments do not count for me. However, I do agree with his recent comments asking Thaksin to stop starting “Class war” and divide the nation. A common ground needs to be achieved soon otherwise it could be danger to this country’s solidarity.
I think at the moment the country needs someone whom the whole country listens to. Correct me if I am wrong, but I only know 1 person whom people love and respect like this and his intervention for a mediation could save a lot of trouble. But then again, it would not be right for democratic movement.
“I myself have little data beyond what I saw with my own eyes and what I have learned from other eye-witnesses whom I believe to be reliable.”
“I have tried to write objectively about the Barcelona fighting, though, obviously, no-one can be completely objective on a question of this kind. One is practically obliged to take sides, and it must be clear enough which side I am on. Again, I must have inevitably made mistakes of fact, not only here but in other parts of this narrative. It is very difficult to write about the Spanish war, because of the lack of non-propagandist documents. I warn everyone against my bias, and warn everyone against my mistakes.
Still, I have done my best to be honest.”
For the Record:
Thai governments are all very corrupt due to the domination of ‘money politics’. However I do have a clear preference for Abhisit for prime minister – not least that, because of Thaksin’s almost complete lack of intellectual integrity throughout his career both as a plutocrat and wanna-be dictator, he makes Abhisit look so much better than he otherwise would. Having fought the Thai elite in court (where I was robbed of justice) and protested in the streets for Thaksin to “Get Out!” (because of his machinations to monopolize the political power of the legislature, executive and judiciary) I am sympathetic to the poor (like myself, incidentally) but, looking at it historically, I don’t see how they can win over the Thai middle class without rejecting the by-now unwelcome in any big Western democracies and thoroughly discredited Thaksin – and his money.
An election before the end of the year? I’d like to see that.
Excellent post, AP #18. I thoroughly agree with it, including “I support this movement too as long as they stay away from Thaksin and his agendas. Yes, there should be open elections and the loser should become effective opposition to govern ruling party. That is democracy and I as a person support it. But, Thaksin should stay away from this movement and people should stay away from him for the purpose of these rallies.”
And also, let’s hope that the army, the police, and the public service learn their place as well. (I’m not stupid enough to believe that this will happen quickly.) BTW, in an interview with BBC last night, the PM stated that he was living in a military barracks for the duration because he didn’t want to be responsible for the government killing its own people yet again (paraphrasal only). An admirable statement, if we take it at face value…Comments?
Re: Vichai N’s comments above. This story is certainly doing the rounds where I work.
A number of my Thai colleagues recently explained that, indeed, Thaksin and his supports claim he is the reincarnation of King Taksin. Even more, in this reincarnated form, King Taksin is taking revenge for his removal from power and subsequent execution by the first Chakri dynasty king.
Interestingly, just after this conversation, on the street outside our office building, I saw a taxi parked up with the word Taksin – in English – pasted vertically between the front and rear door windows.
George J @ 51: Elroy’s post is very clear and he has used the term ‘draconian’ correctly. He did not state that Thai society is draconian. He implies that there may be posters on this site who believe that it should be kept from being so.(“Could it be that the point people are making is that this shouldn’t happen at all in a modern, non-draconian society?”) Perhaps you need to do your (English Comprehension) homework.
Your assertion re. pro-Red bias “and contempt for views non-red, as opposed to objective analysis” doesn’t stand up to objective scrutiny. It possibly stems from a belief that the very definite bias of the local MSM is OK, & that any story with anything positive to say about the Reds is not OK, & could only come from rabid Reds. This is the sort of accusation that comes up regularly with Nick Nostitz’s coverage of political demonstrations, which typically show bad as well as good on both sides.
Black magic and Thaksin voodo is what’s the Red’s blood protests were all about – – source Time magazine: In Thailand, A Little Black Magic Is Politics as Usual
Quote: “. . . In fact, according to Wassana Namnuan, a Bangkok Post reporter, Thaksin and his opponents have been deeply engaged in black magic battles for dominance of the country for several years. “Both sides have been casting curses and spells upon each other,” says Wassana who has written a book on the subject in Thai called Secrets, Trickery and Camouflage: The Improbable Phenomena. According to Wassana, Thaksin believes he is the reincarnation of a Burmese king who killed many Thais, and so has engaged in elaborate cleansing rituals to wash away the sins of his past lives. While in power, Wassana says Thaksin performed several saiyasat, or black magic rituals, that he hoped would prolong his rule for life. While visiting Burma he sought counsel from a deformed astrologer nicknamed “ET” who is favored by the generals that have kept the country in their iron grip for more than half a century.
More ominously, Wassana says, Thaksin and many of his followers also believe he is the reincarnation of King Taksin, who ruled in the late 18th century. King Taksin went mad, and so was ousted and executed in 1782 by a general who then proclaimed himself king and founded the Chakri Dynasty. (King Bhumibol, Thailand’s present king, is a descendant of that general and part of the Chakri Dynasty.) Thaksin has frequently blamed King Bhumibol’s advisors for the coup that ousted him, and claimed they informed the king in advance about the coup. The royal advisors have denied the allegations.
Images of King Bhumibol at Red Shirt rallies are almost completely absent. Instead, red shirt leaders keep a statue of King Taksin at their rallies, some Red Shirt guards dress in the style of King Taksin’s soldiers, and banners spell the ousted prime minister’s name in the manner of the 18th century king. It’s a revelation in a land where near-universal reverence for King Bhumibol has long been assumed. But Thaksin may feel his time is coming, as the king is 82 and ill health. And just about any Thai will tell you that astrologers have foretold there will only be nine Chakri kings. King Bhumibol is the ninth Chakri king.
Thaksin’s opponents are equally steeped in the supernatural . . .”
Nutty Lin – We all know what ASTV Manager is trying to do here, what you are doing is like telling us to listen to Gestapo propaganda so that we know how bad Jewish are…. come on.
I believe everyone has already dissected the story and provided their valued thoughts, but here is my bob’s worth.
Childhood:
A business family selling clothes and coffee, and children going to school have better chances to eat food and will be considered rich as compared to people working in farm and barely had some food to eat once per day. This is still relevant in present days of Thai life. Thaksin is around 57/58 years old now which means he was 3-4 years old in 1956/57. Owning a motorcycle at that time was a big deal, 80 baht meant a huge amount and only rich person could spare 400 baht for toys. As he mentioned, they owned the only refrigerator in whole area.
Student Life
He must have been smart to make it this far as a rich man, however, getting a scholarship to study in US either needs knowing high profile people or paying huge sums of money as bribe. It is unclear that which option was used. Although his then girl friend – Pojaman hailed from an affluent family and whose father was a high profile police officer. Go figure.
I know that students take time off or gap period during studies for travel. But, a cash strapped student taking a 4 months driving holiday may be hard to swallow.
Student Load and exit from police
Every student who studies on government’s scholarship has to work for the duration specified in bond (as in previous comments ratio could 1:2), as well as need to pay back student loan for amount spent during studies. How did Thaksin paid it back before his Phd? It is unclear as well. It is also not evident if he quit police job before pursuing Phd as he said that he contributed his father-in-law’s money with police salary.
PHD
My poor man worked very hard during his time in the US, but still managed to buy a Benz and a Volvo. We are talking roughly around mid-70s. If someone could afford such cars at that time, then he/she was definitely not poor.
Business life
There is no doubt that he was an opportunistic business man. Be it using contacts to win contracts, or exploiting system to provide rights to his companies, he took every opportunity to expand his business, and most of the business men would have done the same. And, in the end thats what it boils down to.
On a separate note, why a business man who made a fortune and then found guilty is so important? It is because, he is exploiting people for his own purpose. Red t-shirt supporters are going around in Bangkok on rallies for his support. I support this movement too as long as they stay away from Thaksin and his agendas. Yes, there should be open elections and the loser should become effective opposition to govern ruling party. That is democracy and I as a person support it. But, Thaksin should stay away from this movement and people should stay away from him for the purpose of these rallies.
A better than average article from the Economist regarding Thailand this time. Strange how the late Kukrit Pramoj was saying something similar about the succession in a Bangkok Post interview many years ago. Of course that was at time when it looked a long way off, but he said there would no problem in jumping a generation. I seem to remember Kukrit was a privy councilor back then and he thought the decision was totally in the hands of the Privy Council. Is that still true?
It does tend to add some understanding to the attacks on and support of the Privy Council in the recent troubles.
What I am trying to explain is that Thailand was one of the countries under the U.S. sphere of influence during the Cold War era. As such, Thailand can be compared with any countries under the U.S. sphere of influence in Latin America, Africa, and Asia. I made the comparison with Singapore to show how the difference in the internal context could lead Singapore toward success while Thailand failed due to its inability to reform the structure of its state. Class struggle happens in every society that adopts the market economy system, the crisis has more to do with the role of the State than the class struggle. Every country in the Asia Pacific region encountered the 1997 financial crisis over a decade ago; it really had nothing much to do with the current political situation in Thailand. All these countries have adopted the recommended model by the World Bank, the difference in the outcome is how the State maneuvers its policies and domestic politics. Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, and Hong Kong are more successful because of the role of the State.
Thanks for info. You are right that industrial production of all these crops were introduced by foreign elements, however local tribes have been using opium as pain killer since ages. Developed countries as well known to take undue advantage of under developed countries to support their interest. Cultivation of blue in India in past by British government and exploitation of Papua New Guinea by BHP are a few examples.
As far as reengaging Burma is concerned, I do not think it will be possible till characters like Than Shwe, Tay Za and other by-products of military junta or any other elements influenced by corruption remain in power. Any insurgency from super powers will also be futile as major financial interests lie in China who supports Burma and it could turn explosive due to support of North Korea. I guess, Burma needs to unite and throw away military junta on its own.
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Keyes on Thailand’s blood protests
I’m very surprised that not a single person has noted the fact that Red is the colour in the current “Thai” flag which supposedly symbolises “the people”.
Even when Red-Shirt leaders were asked at the FCCT severeal months ago about why the colour Red was chosen, the reply from Veera was : “because it is not Yellow”.
Red of course is the dominant colour in the old flag of Siam, with a white elephant being the only other. There’s no Yellow.
Support for Reds from Bangkok at large
As for support by Bangkokians for the Red Shirts can be seen during their rally/convoy along the streets of Bangkok today (20 March). A rare sight which may send shivers down the spines of Mark, and even SondhiL and Chamlong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56kNRQX1tvg&feature
You see Bangkok has lots of working class people who are routinely oppressed by the ammat and the rally provides an opportunity for these oppressed people to show their might. Question: why can’t we see any photo of Thaksin ?
Keyes on Thailand’s blood protests
Yes, we can recall the PAD’s black magic. Recall the use of menstrual blood at the equestrian statue. We can also remember the rites performed by the current royals each year to make amends for their ancestor’s murder of King Taksin.
I’m just a soul whose intentions are good …
Michael. You are right that progress and liberation comes when whole country works as a well lubricated engine and every component knows it place. It will take time for any country that has such legacy baggage as Thailand as 14-16 years are not enough to bed down democratic system and thoughts in minds of people contributing to this system.
As far as comments on Abhisit’s statements are concerned. I would not trust, admire or react to a politician’s statement on it’s face value. As a person he is a scholar and has charismatic personality, he could not prove to be an effective opposition in past and seems to be just a figure in whole puppet show. So, his comments do not count for me. However, I do agree with his recent comments asking Thaksin to stop starting “Class war” and divide the nation. A common ground needs to be achieved soon otherwise it could be danger to this country’s solidarity.
I think at the moment the country needs someone whom the whole country listens to. Correct me if I am wrong, but I only know 1 person whom people love and respect like this and his intervention for a mediation could save a lot of trouble. But then again, it would not be right for democratic movement.
Thai style democracy?
Tarrin at 54: Re Ethics
George Orwell, ‘Homage to Catalonia’:
“I myself have little data beyond what I saw with my own eyes and what I have learned from other eye-witnesses whom I believe to be reliable.”
“I have tried to write objectively about the Barcelona fighting, though, obviously, no-one can be completely objective on a question of this kind. One is practically obliged to take sides, and it must be clear enough which side I am on. Again, I must have inevitably made mistakes of fact, not only here but in other parts of this narrative. It is very difficult to write about the Spanish war, because of the lack of non-propagandist documents. I warn everyone against my bias, and warn everyone against my mistakes.
Still, I have done my best to be honest.”
For the Record:
Thai governments are all very corrupt due to the domination of ‘money politics’. However I do have a clear preference for Abhisit for prime minister – not least that, because of Thaksin’s almost complete lack of intellectual integrity throughout his career both as a plutocrat and wanna-be dictator, he makes Abhisit look so much better than he otherwise would. Having fought the Thai elite in court (where I was robbed of justice) and protested in the streets for Thaksin to “Get Out!” (because of his machinations to monopolize the political power of the legislature, executive and judiciary) I am sympathetic to the poor (like myself, incidentally) but, looking at it historically, I don’t see how they can win over the Thai middle class without rejecting the by-now unwelcome in any big Western democracies and thoroughly discredited Thaksin – and his money.
An election before the end of the year? I’d like to see that.
I’m just a soul whose intentions are good …
Excellent post, AP #18. I thoroughly agree with it, including “I support this movement too as long as they stay away from Thaksin and his agendas. Yes, there should be open elections and the loser should become effective opposition to govern ruling party. That is democracy and I as a person support it. But, Thaksin should stay away from this movement and people should stay away from him for the purpose of these rallies.”
And also, let’s hope that the army, the police, and the public service learn their place as well. (I’m not stupid enough to believe that this will happen quickly.) BTW, in an interview with BBC last night, the PM stated that he was living in a military barracks for the duration because he didn’t want to be responsible for the government killing its own people yet again (paraphrasal only). An admirable statement, if we take it at face value…Comments?
Keyes on Thailand’s blood protests
Re: Vichai N’s comments above. This story is certainly doing the rounds where I work.
A number of my Thai colleagues recently explained that, indeed, Thaksin and his supports claim he is the reincarnation of King Taksin. Even more, in this reincarnated form, King Taksin is taking revenge for his removal from power and subsequent execution by the first Chakri dynasty king.
Interestingly, just after this conversation, on the street outside our office building, I saw a taxi parked up with the word Taksin – in English – pasted vertically between the front and rear door windows.
Spooky eh?
Thai style democracy?
George J @ 51: Elroy’s post is very clear and he has used the term ‘draconian’ correctly. He did not state that Thai society is draconian. He implies that there may be posters on this site who believe that it should be kept from being so.(“Could it be that the point people are making is that this shouldn’t happen at all in a modern, non-draconian society?”) Perhaps you need to do your (English Comprehension) homework.
Your assertion re. pro-Red bias “and contempt for views non-red, as opposed to objective analysis” doesn’t stand up to objective scrutiny. It possibly stems from a belief that the very definite bias of the local MSM is OK, & that any story with anything positive to say about the Reds is not OK, & could only come from rabid Reds. This is the sort of accusation that comes up regularly with Nick Nostitz’s coverage of political demonstrations, which typically show bad as well as good on both sides.
Baby elephants and lese majeste
[…] […]
Keyes on Thailand’s blood protests
Black magic and Thaksin voodo is what’s the Red’s blood protests were all about – – source Time magazine: In Thailand, A Little Black Magic Is Politics as Usual
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1973871,00.html
Quote: “. . . In fact, according to Wassana Namnuan, a Bangkok Post reporter, Thaksin and his opponents have been deeply engaged in black magic battles for dominance of the country for several years. “Both sides have been casting curses and spells upon each other,” says Wassana who has written a book on the subject in Thai called Secrets, Trickery and Camouflage: The Improbable Phenomena. According to Wassana, Thaksin believes he is the reincarnation of a Burmese king who killed many Thais, and so has engaged in elaborate cleansing rituals to wash away the sins of his past lives. While in power, Wassana says Thaksin performed several saiyasat, or black magic rituals, that he hoped would prolong his rule for life. While visiting Burma he sought counsel from a deformed astrologer nicknamed “ET” who is favored by the generals that have kept the country in their iron grip for more than half a century.
More ominously, Wassana says, Thaksin and many of his followers also believe he is the reincarnation of King Taksin, who ruled in the late 18th century. King Taksin went mad, and so was ousted and executed in 1782 by a general who then proclaimed himself king and founded the Chakri Dynasty. (King Bhumibol, Thailand’s present king, is a descendant of that general and part of the Chakri Dynasty.) Thaksin has frequently blamed King Bhumibol’s advisors for the coup that ousted him, and claimed they informed the king in advance about the coup. The royal advisors have denied the allegations.
Images of King Bhumibol at Red Shirt rallies are almost completely absent. Instead, red shirt leaders keep a statue of King Taksin at their rallies, some Red Shirt guards dress in the style of King Taksin’s soldiers, and banners spell the ousted prime minister’s name in the manner of the 18th century king. It’s a revelation in a land where near-universal reverence for King Bhumibol has long been assumed. But Thaksin may feel his time is coming, as the king is 82 and ill health. And just about any Thai will tell you that astrologers have foretold there will only be nine Chakri kings. King Bhumibol is the ninth Chakri king.
Thaksin’s opponents are equally steeped in the supernatural . . .”
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1973871-2,00.html#ixzz0ihGdIkfN
Support for Reds from Bangkok at large
Nutty Lin – We all know what ASTV Manager is trying to do here, what you are doing is like telling us to listen to Gestapo propaganda so that we know how bad Jewish are…. come on.
Thai style democracy?
Frank lee – What??? instead of insulting and straight-face hypocrisy, did you bring anything to the table for that matter??
I’m just a soul whose intentions are good …
I believe everyone has already dissected the story and provided their valued thoughts, but here is my bob’s worth.
Childhood:
A business family selling clothes and coffee, and children going to school have better chances to eat food and will be considered rich as compared to people working in farm and barely had some food to eat once per day. This is still relevant in present days of Thai life. Thaksin is around 57/58 years old now which means he was 3-4 years old in 1956/57. Owning a motorcycle at that time was a big deal, 80 baht meant a huge amount and only rich person could spare 400 baht for toys. As he mentioned, they owned the only refrigerator in whole area.
Student Life
He must have been smart to make it this far as a rich man, however, getting a scholarship to study in US either needs knowing high profile people or paying huge sums of money as bribe. It is unclear that which option was used. Although his then girl friend – Pojaman hailed from an affluent family and whose father was a high profile police officer. Go figure.
I know that students take time off or gap period during studies for travel. But, a cash strapped student taking a 4 months driving holiday may be hard to swallow.
Student Load and exit from police
Every student who studies on government’s scholarship has to work for the duration specified in bond (as in previous comments ratio could 1:2), as well as need to pay back student loan for amount spent during studies. How did Thaksin paid it back before his Phd? It is unclear as well. It is also not evident if he quit police job before pursuing Phd as he said that he contributed his father-in-law’s money with police salary.
PHD
My poor man worked very hard during his time in the US, but still managed to buy a Benz and a Volvo. We are talking roughly around mid-70s. If someone could afford such cars at that time, then he/she was definitely not poor.
Business life
There is no doubt that he was an opportunistic business man. Be it using contacts to win contracts, or exploiting system to provide rights to his companies, he took every opportunity to expand his business, and most of the business men would have done the same. And, in the end thats what it boils down to.
On a separate note, why a business man who made a fortune and then found guilty is so important? It is because, he is exploiting people for his own purpose. Red t-shirt supporters are going around in Bangkok on rallies for his support. I support this movement too as long as they stay away from Thaksin and his agendas. Yes, there should be open elections and the loser should become effective opposition to govern ruling party. That is democracy and I as a person support it. But, Thaksin should stay away from this movement and people should stay away from him for the purpose of these rallies.
The Economist stomps on some media taboos
A better than average article from the Economist regarding Thailand this time. Strange how the late Kukrit Pramoj was saying something similar about the succession in a Bangkok Post interview many years ago. Of course that was at time when it looked a long way off, but he said there would no problem in jumping a generation. I seem to remember Kukrit was a privy councilor back then and he thought the decision was totally in the hands of the Privy Council. Is that still true?
It does tend to add some understanding to the attacks on and support of the Privy Council in the recent troubles.
Keyes on Thailand’s blood protests
What I am trying to explain is that Thailand was one of the countries under the U.S. sphere of influence during the Cold War era. As such, Thailand can be compared with any countries under the U.S. sphere of influence in Latin America, Africa, and Asia. I made the comparison with Singapore to show how the difference in the internal context could lead Singapore toward success while Thailand failed due to its inability to reform the structure of its state. Class struggle happens in every society that adopts the market economy system, the crisis has more to do with the role of the State than the class struggle. Every country in the Asia Pacific region encountered the 1997 financial crisis over a decade ago; it really had nothing much to do with the current political situation in Thailand. All these countries have adopted the recommended model by the World Bank, the difference in the outcome is how the State maneuvers its policies and domestic politics. Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, and Hong Kong are more successful because of the role of the State.
Profits to be made?
Portman – thank you very much. I’ll try to take a closer look at those NVDR’s.
The scourge of Burma, Part 3
Hla Oo,
Thanks for info. You are right that industrial production of all these crops were introduced by foreign elements, however local tribes have been using opium as pain killer since ages. Developed countries as well known to take undue advantage of under developed countries to support their interest. Cultivation of blue in India in past by British government and exploitation of Papua New Guinea by BHP are a few examples.
As far as reengaging Burma is concerned, I do not think it will be possible till characters like Than Shwe, Tay Za and other by-products of military junta or any other elements influenced by corruption remain in power. Any insurgency from super powers will also be futile as major financial interests lie in China who supports Burma and it could turn explosive due to support of North Korea. I guess, Burma needs to unite and throw away military junta on its own.
I am eagerly waiting for you next chapter.
Regards
AP
Red soi, Red city: A brief commentary from the streets
Nice work Michelle, thanks.
The Economist stomps on some media taboos
Andrew, for dogs and barking/barfing mad (minor) royals, go here:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/entertainment/art/33663/surrealism-of-a-princess
One wonders about the personal use of pooches.
The Economist stomps on some media taboos
Captain Fu Fu is one thing, but this is going too far!!