Oh …. so the comments in this thread that state “Unfortunately, as this article shows, increasingly Burmese youth are getting the worst of both worlds – the cultural garbage of the West” and the “young …who ape the culture of conspicuous consumption and celebrity, and they are in turn aped by their misguided peers who can ill afford such a life style” are just a figment of my imagination?
Jeez.
You clearly have no understanding whatsoever of how popular culture works (or even how to sustain a rational argument from one posting to the next) so I’m not going to waste my time debating with you.
I don’t think Mark has any negative connotation to the word “exotic”, neither do I. It’s simply an expression of differences. Even artists acknowledge that there are differences among cultures. For example, if you visit Van Gogh museum, the exhibit will explain you the development of his art works from earth tone to bright colors after he’s in contact with the Orient. Van Gogh was captivated by the “exotic” of the Oriental. And it did subsequently have an impact on his paintings i.e. the Sun Flowers. “Exotic” was simple an expression of “the other” with no class distinction.
British and European arts are simply in contrast with Oriental arts. Arts in British National Museum in London and Paris Louvre are completely different from Beijing Forbidden City, yet they all are beautiful in their own ways. The two cultures evolve differently, there is nothing wrong with being different. Diversity is okay.
I have the same concerns as others about China in her pursuit of modernization to the point that she destroys her own beauty and identity. I hope to see China be able to balance technology with the Oriental beauty in the same way as Kyoto prefecture in Japan did. It’s such beautiful a city.
Regarding to the highland hill tribes, I don’t think any country in the region will allow the relocation from AfgPak to Southeast Asia. So they will develop just fine, nothing to worry about.
Nganadeeleg, reds have no idea what they want themselves.
They sort of want the elections but they reject the constitution.
They sort of want the elections but they want to overthrow the government via street protests first, and then overthrow the constitution, and then bring back Thaksin.
After that they want “sort of” elections.
It’s hard to imagine more misguided and contradictory political group.
I guess it would be true to say that first and foremost they want a revolution to overthrow the regime of ammart, not elections per se.
Frank, PAD threatened to take to the streets over the amendments but even if it ever comes to that, it will be a whole new, unrelated matter and it won’t be about any political changes, only people’s legitimate concern over politicians fixing the rules to help themselves.
It’s not clear why Banharn worked himself up so much and I don’t think he is in cahoots with Thaksin on that one. He needs smaller constituencies to compete in elections, but is the threat really that serious?
Bkk Lawyer, ideologically Democrat or BJT platforms were identical to PPP in 2007 elections, and after they formed the government they’ve been accused of following the same TRT style populism. As for old hatchets – most of Democrat coalition partners are old TRT cadres and their alliance is a source of stability, not turmoil.
The opposition stopped peddling the stale bread of inequalities and disenfranchised uneducated driving their conflict long time ago while Democrats seems to be happy to address those issues rather enthusiastically.
Apart from Thaksin they have nothing to say or offer.
StanG: Were you trying to explain why “Politically, the conflict has been practically settled, old differences cast away, … all ideological hatchets effectively buried”? I’m still waiting. All you say is that PTP and the red shirts have lost their effectiveness/appeal.
What conflicts have been settled? What differences “cast away”? Who has buried the hatchet? The gross inequalities between poor and rich remain, the poor and uneducated remain disfranchised, corruption remains rampant. There is an increasingly apparent rift in the military, daily talk of coup. It is “patiently” clear from the headlines.
Reds don’t want elections, it’s not a part of their agenda
Which ‘reds’ have you been talking to?
First time I’ve heard that one, but perhaps its because they feel the country should return to the 1997 constitution first (quite a reasonable demand IMO, but I also think they should participate in trying to get the current coup installed constitution more reasonable – remember the army only got it passed in a referendum by telling people it could be amended later).
Maybe you mistook the reds you heard, and what they actually said is they don’t want elections stolen from them?
Now that would be quite understandable.
PS. I’m not sure why I’m still bothering to respond to you Stan/Trep – I must be a glutton for punishment & like banging my head against a brick wall:)
The explanation that Thaskin thought people joined the rallies because they just can’t wait for 500 pension payments to be scrapped raises a few questions on its own.
Beg to differ slightly about there being no reasons for PAD to rally… Abhisit just turned down idea of amending the charter, I feel at least in part because of fears that the PAD would take to the streets – which it did threaten to do.
Enamored by their beauty and creativity, yes. Enchanted by their exoticness, no. Labelling a culture as exotic sets people apart as “The Other”.
Suzie, I enjoy your contributions immensely and nine times out of ten I agree with them. I am here reflecting the impact a book had on me, helping me to look at the hill tribe issue with new eyes.
Global marketing (if there is a market) of these products in not wrong in itself. However, it must not be used as a means to a fast buck for the agents. The producers must be consulted and involved from creation to sale. A healthy percentage of profits must be ploughed back to the source, to be used as the producers see fit, whether to expand the business or diversify into other, perhaps non-commercial areas.
I stand by everything I have said and maintain that it is NOT “equally likely” that Thaksin changed the subject from street protests to welfare payments.
Tumbler, I don’t know what you think, only what you say and what your words imply, but for anyone whose political stance is ‘Thaksin, right or wrong’, I’m not surprised that some of my more satirical comments were lost on you because extremists usually lack a sense of humor as well as a sense of balance.
But you were right about one thing – I haven’t lived here for fifty years, only thirty.
StanG: Why not let the electorate decide whether the reds have any relevance?
If ‘no one takes them seriously’, why are the Democrat Party (and you?) so afaid of elections?
I often wonder whether such people are merely puppets/stooges/red herrings, or could they be co-conspirators?
Sometimes paid co-conspirators, but mostly just satisfied with the rewards of mixing with a select crowd of ‘important’ people (perhaps including some ‘help’ pushing their own agenda or projects through).
It just seems too unbelievable that anyone who really knows and studies Thailand could say that stuff (and believe it!)
Frank Lee: Sure, you could make that argument, but you would very probably be incorrect. I refer you to Youtube/Bloopers! Thaksin makes a huge slip. Moreover, I have heard Bangkok Taxi drivers myself being offered cash payments of “money from Chieng Mai” to join the red rallies.
The last sentence, even if it’s true, doesn’t prove the first. In fact anyone who really understands Thai and really listens to the speech and still thinks that it’s a ‘slip’ about payment for attending rally, would be a total moron.
Khun tum|bler even concedes too much to say “only one way of interpreting that sentence”. It’s not even an ‘interpretation’. When somesone says he would not ask for the 500 baht elderly benefit payment, and it is alledged that he talks about his paying others, it’s not an interpreation, but a stupid way to score point by desparate, thoughtless political activists.
(BTW, for Frank Lee’s information, “Maew Rap” and the clip of so-called 500 Baht ‘slip’ are two different clips. The first is a edited composition of several speeches of Thaksin, made (it’s sad to say) by a young Thai classical concert musician/conductor. (He also made a ‘companion’ clip, similarly mocking Samak, called “Samak rap”.) The second is just a clip of a speech, with no editing (or little editing, like inserting text).
Frank Lee: the mythical ‘golden era’ of “ugly crony capitalism” and “insulting populism” under the infallible, incorruptible, sage-like guidance of
Are you sure you’re referring to Thaksin? I bet you’re not living in this country for the past fifty years or so, or you’ve lived here deaf and blind.
Tumbler, reds have been able to convince themselves through their own propaganda channels but they make no sense to the society at large.
Driving Surayud out of his hill top residence is peanuts. They can fill the schedule for decades ahead with this kind of agenda.
Street politics are not relevant anymore. They have no effect on the government or the parliament. Reds themselves have no clue how they can effect any of their ideas, and this lack of plan doesn’t bother them at all. They just don’t think that far ahead and so no one takes them seriously.
Congratulations. You’ve just managed to put words in my mouth. Did I ever deny that he paid them? Did I ever say that no one in the reds received money for their labour/service? Your taxi driver anecdote is not even relevant. Do you think I’ve never come across a red (and yellow) who’s been paid to join a rally?
About the clip (yes, that clip), I was (and still am) surprised that so many people thought Thaksin was referring to paying 500 baht for each of the reds. If you listen to the whole thing, it would be pretty illogical to interpret that sentence in that way because the meaning wouldn’t fit in with the rest of what he was saying. The only thing that counts against this theory is Thaksin’s reaction, but that was probably because he suddenly realised that his enemies would jump at the chance of making a false interpretation of any remotely ambiguous thing he ever uttered.
Sorry, I had no ideas that I had identified next tier of locations you are going to try to establish a presence. I was simply trying to figure out preventive measures to preserve the hill tribe mountain peoples’ handicrafts from extinction.
Bkk Lawyer, it’s patiently clear that PTP sans Thaksin has nothing to offer to the public. They have no leadership, no platform, no ideas, no clear positions on any issues.
Current revolt in the parliament over const amendments have nothing to do with PTP at all.
Red movement has lost its teeth, too, and the only worry about them is a potential for violence, and that would be inexcusable and unacceptable. Just look how fast they retreated after proposing a new airport rally.
Likewise, PAD has no reasons and no support for fresh rounds of rallies, too.
The only destabilizing factor is Thaksin but his power to actually achieve anything is seriously waning, he might give up the costly project of running a political party from overseas.
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@Moe Aung
Oh …. so the comments in this thread that state “Unfortunately, as this article shows, increasingly Burmese youth are getting the worst of both worlds – the cultural garbage of the West” and the “young …who ape the culture of conspicuous consumption and celebrity, and they are in turn aped by their misguided peers who can ill afford such a life style” are just a figment of my imagination?
Jeez.
You clearly have no understanding whatsoever of how popular culture works (or even how to sustain a rational argument from one posting to the next) so I’m not going to waste my time debating with you.
Adios.
Collection seeks soul mate
I don’t think Mark has any negative connotation to the word “exotic”, neither do I. It’s simply an expression of differences. Even artists acknowledge that there are differences among cultures. For example, if you visit Van Gogh museum, the exhibit will explain you the development of his art works from earth tone to bright colors after he’s in contact with the Orient. Van Gogh was captivated by the “exotic” of the Oriental. And it did subsequently have an impact on his paintings i.e. the Sun Flowers. “Exotic” was simple an expression of “the other” with no class distinction.
British and European arts are simply in contrast with Oriental arts. Arts in British National Museum in London and Paris Louvre are completely different from Beijing Forbidden City, yet they all are beautiful in their own ways. The two cultures evolve differently, there is nothing wrong with being different. Diversity is okay.
I have the same concerns as others about China in her pursuit of modernization to the point that she destroys her own beauty and identity. I hope to see China be able to balance technology with the Oriental beauty in the same way as Kyoto prefecture in Japan did. It’s such beautiful a city.
Regarding to the highland hill tribes, I don’t think any country in the region will allow the relocation from AfgPak to Southeast Asia. So they will develop just fine, nothing to worry about.
Stephen B. Young on a “grand consultation”
Nganadeeleg, reds have no idea what they want themselves.
They sort of want the elections but they reject the constitution.
They sort of want the elections but they want to overthrow the government via street protests first, and then overthrow the constitution, and then bring back Thaksin.
After that they want “sort of” elections.
It’s hard to imagine more misguided and contradictory political group.
I guess it would be true to say that first and foremost they want a revolution to overthrow the regime of ammart, not elections per se.
The return of Thailand’s old friend
Frank, PAD threatened to take to the streets over the amendments but even if it ever comes to that, it will be a whole new, unrelated matter and it won’t be about any political changes, only people’s legitimate concern over politicians fixing the rules to help themselves.
It’s not clear why Banharn worked himself up so much and I don’t think he is in cahoots with Thaksin on that one. He needs smaller constituencies to compete in elections, but is the threat really that serious?
Bkk Lawyer, ideologically Democrat or BJT platforms were identical to PPP in 2007 elections, and after they formed the government they’ve been accused of following the same TRT style populism. As for old hatchets – most of Democrat coalition partners are old TRT cadres and their alliance is a source of stability, not turmoil.
The opposition stopped peddling the stale bread of inequalities and disenfranchised uneducated driving their conflict long time ago while Democrats seems to be happy to address those issues rather enthusiastically.
Apart from Thaksin they have nothing to say or offer.
Thaksin’s PhD
@Frank Lee #7:
Why did you say my name when you were responding to Aj Somsak’s comment?
The return of Thailand’s old friend
StanG: Were you trying to explain why “Politically, the conflict has been practically settled, old differences cast away, … all ideological hatchets effectively buried”? I’m still waiting. All you say is that PTP and the red shirts have lost their effectiveness/appeal.
What conflicts have been settled? What differences “cast away”? Who has buried the hatchet? The gross inequalities between poor and rich remain, the poor and uneducated remain disfranchised, corruption remains rampant. There is an increasingly apparent rift in the military, daily talk of coup. It is “patiently” clear from the headlines.
Stephen B. Young on a “grand consultation”
Reds don’t want elections, it’s not a part of their agenda
Which ‘reds’ have you been talking to?
First time I’ve heard that one, but perhaps its because they feel the country should return to the 1997 constitution first (quite a reasonable demand IMO, but I also think they should participate in trying to get the current coup installed constitution more reasonable – remember the army only got it passed in a referendum by telling people it could be amended later).
Maybe you mistook the reds you heard, and what they actually said is they don’t want elections stolen from them?
Now that would be quite understandable.
PS. I’m not sure why I’m still bothering to respond to you Stan/Trep – I must be a glutton for punishment & like banging my head against a brick wall:)
Thaksin’s PhD
The explanation that Thaskin thought people joined the rallies because they just can’t wait for 500 pension payments to be scrapped raises a few questions on its own.
The return of Thailand’s old friend
Beg to differ slightly about there being no reasons for PAD to rally… Abhisit just turned down idea of amending the charter, I feel at least in part because of fears that the PAD would take to the streets – which it did threaten to do.
Collection seeks soul mate
Enamored by their beauty and creativity, yes. Enchanted by their exoticness, no. Labelling a culture as exotic sets people apart as “The Other”.
Suzie, I enjoy your contributions immensely and nine times out of ten I agree with them. I am here reflecting the impact a book had on me, helping me to look at the hill tribe issue with new eyes.
Global marketing (if there is a market) of these products in not wrong in itself. However, it must not be used as a means to a fast buck for the agents. The producers must be consulted and involved from creation to sale. A healthy percentage of profits must be ploughed back to the source, to be used as the producers see fit, whether to expand the business or diversify into other, perhaps non-commercial areas.
Thaksin’s PhD
I stand by everything I have said and maintain that it is NOT “equally likely” that Thaksin changed the subject from street protests to welfare payments.
Tumbler, I don’t know what you think, only what you say and what your words imply, but for anyone whose political stance is ‘Thaksin, right or wrong’, I’m not surprised that some of my more satirical comments were lost on you because extremists usually lack a sense of humor as well as a sense of balance.
But you were right about one thing – I haven’t lived here for fifty years, only thirty.
Red Shirts at Surayud’s holiday paradise
[…] efforts to evict General Surayud Chulanont from his picturesque hillside villa have generated some […]
Stephen B. Young on a “grand consultation”
Reds don’t want elections, it’s not a part of their agenda.
Stephen B. Young on a “grand consultation”
StanG: Why not let the electorate decide whether the reds have any relevance?
If ‘no one takes them seriously’, why are the Democrat Party (and you?) so afaid of elections?
Stephen B. Young on a “grand consultation”
“Until then you are merely a puppet– a stooge”
I often wonder whether such people are merely puppets/stooges/red herrings, or could they be co-conspirators?
Sometimes paid co-conspirators, but mostly just satisfied with the rewards of mixing with a select crowd of ‘important’ people (perhaps including some ‘help’ pushing their own agenda or projects through).
It just seems too unbelievable that anyone who really knows and studies Thailand could say that stuff (and believe it!)
Thaksin’s PhD
Frank Lee:
Sure, you could make that argument, but you would very probably be incorrect. I refer you to Youtube/Bloopers! Thaksin makes a huge slip. Moreover, I have heard Bangkok Taxi drivers myself being offered cash payments of “money from Chieng Mai” to join the red rallies.
The last sentence, even if it’s true, doesn’t prove the first. In fact anyone who really understands Thai and really listens to the speech and still thinks that it’s a ‘slip’ about payment for attending rally, would be a total moron.
Khun tum|bler even concedes too much to say “only one way of interpreting that sentence”. It’s not even an ‘interpretation’. When somesone says he would not ask for the 500 baht elderly benefit payment, and it is alledged that he talks about his paying others, it’s not an interpreation, but a stupid way to score point by desparate, thoughtless political activists.
(BTW, for Frank Lee’s information, “Maew Rap” and the clip of so-called 500 Baht ‘slip’ are two different clips. The first is a edited composition of several speeches of Thaksin, made (it’s sad to say) by a young Thai classical concert musician/conductor. (He also made a ‘companion’ clip, similarly mocking Samak, called “Samak rap”.) The second is just a clip of a speech, with no editing (or little editing, like inserting text).
Frank Lee:
the mythical ‘golden era’ of “ugly crony capitalism” and “insulting populism” under the infallible, incorruptible, sage-like guidance of
Are you sure you’re referring to Thaksin? I bet you’re not living in this country for the past fifty years or so, or you’ve lived here deaf and blind.
Stephen B. Young on a “grand consultation”
Tumbler, reds have been able to convince themselves through their own propaganda channels but they make no sense to the society at large.
Driving Surayud out of his hill top residence is peanuts. They can fill the schedule for decades ahead with this kind of agenda.
Street politics are not relevant anymore. They have no effect on the government or the parliament. Reds themselves have no clue how they can effect any of their ideas, and this lack of plan doesn’t bother them at all. They just don’t think that far ahead and so no one takes them seriously.
Thaksin’s PhD
@Frank Lee #4:
Congratulations. You’ve just managed to put words in my mouth. Did I ever deny that he paid them? Did I ever say that no one in the reds received money for their labour/service? Your taxi driver anecdote is not even relevant. Do you think I’ve never come across a red (and yellow) who’s been paid to join a rally?
About the clip (yes, that clip), I was (and still am) surprised that so many people thought Thaksin was referring to paying 500 baht for each of the reds. If you listen to the whole thing, it would be pretty illogical to interpret that sentence in that way because the meaning wouldn’t fit in with the rest of what he was saying. The only thing that counts against this theory is Thaksin’s reaction, but that was probably because he suddenly realised that his enemies would jump at the chance of making a false interpretation of any remotely ambiguous thing he ever uttered.
Collection seeks soul mate
Sorry, I had no ideas that I had identified next tier of locations you are going to try to establish a presence. I was simply trying to figure out preventive measures to preserve the hill tribe mountain peoples’ handicrafts from extinction.
The return of Thailand’s old friend
Bkk Lawyer, it’s patiently clear that PTP sans Thaksin has nothing to offer to the public. They have no leadership, no platform, no ideas, no clear positions on any issues.
Current revolt in the parliament over const amendments have nothing to do with PTP at all.
Red movement has lost its teeth, too, and the only worry about them is a potential for violence, and that would be inexcusable and unacceptable. Just look how fast they retreated after proposing a new airport rally.
Likewise, PAD has no reasons and no support for fresh rounds of rallies, too.
The only destabilizing factor is Thaksin but his power to actually achieve anything is seriously waning, he might give up the costly project of running a political party from overseas.