It’s time Thais stand up for the spirit of Liberté, égalité, fraternité, envisioned by the Founding Fathers of the Thai Constitution of the 1932 Coup d’etat by Dr. Pridi Banomyong. Government of the people, by the people, for the people…
Where all citizens being equal before the law
Where civil and political liberty and rights of every citizen are protected
Where authority of government derives from the consent of people
Where all citizens having equal access to power
Where the contestation over power is allowed in free and fair elections.
Where the supreme power is vested in the simple people and exercised by them through a system of representation involving held free elections
With the absence of hereditary or class distinctions or privileges
With the neutrality of the armed forces
“But I have a sense that in Yeat’s terms, the Thai centre is not holding, pressed between essentially farang values and judgements on one side, and very hierarchical old Thai social practices on the other. Therefore we see in Thailand recently a tendency where the best appear to “lack all conviction” and the worst are filled with “passionate intensity”.”
He sounded as if the wise professor is predicting, in a double-speak, the time now is ripe for the much needed revolution in Thailand.
Last few decades of successful industrialization and financial deregulation of Thai economy has brought forward the new ruling class of industrialists, predominantly the extremely wealthy Thai Chinese, onto the frontline.
Thaksin with the money and ambition is the figurehead and also the epitome of that class and he is not gonna disappear into a peaceful retirement like many other former dictators from old Thailand. Times are changing.
The industrialists are now clashing with the old ruling class, the monarchy and the military, and threatening the well-established status quo.
Democracy along with the individual freedom will eventually come along as the history of western democracies has proved from time to time through ages.
I can’t speak for Thai language forums at any length, but when they arrested Prachatai owners it wasn’t for their English blog, and when they went after October rumors it wasn’t to impress farang audience either.
Proliferation of subversive content on itself does not say much, just like proliferation of spam e-mail. Are these ideas getting a wider footprint or just higher intensity from the same old sources? Who can answer that?
In the end it would balance itself, like the print media. People would read only what they want, after forming an opinion of alternatives.
Natural curiosity can’t last forever, and, personally, I don’t think people have formed positive opinions of this “subversive content”.
Also don’t forget that people who spend their time prodicing it naturally attach more importance to their efforts than the rest of the society.
A perspective from an East Malaysian – the two states of Malaysia that is on the island of Borneo where the Bumiputera/indigenous community are mostly Christians. Read here.
In relation to question 1 – depending on you who speak to, it was either (1) the political leadership was responsible for setting the stage for the attacks (refer to my posting on Allah) or (2) it spontaneously oocured but the Government responded very efficiently. The jury is still out there.
In relation to question 2 – well is this not the question we have been trying to solve for ages – the ability to live peacefully. I don’t think might is the way to address issues – it is only a temporary measure. For the past 60 years, Israel has been manipulating situation in the middle east, including whacking the daylight out of its neighbours – so that Israel continues exists. But its citizens are never at peace and how long do you think Israel can do this. You can apply the same logic to Singapore.
We need to move beyond manipulation and mistrust to find some kind of understanding and some principles that we should never cross. One of them must be – to never resort to violence to resolve an issue.
Have been thinking about Chris Beales comment on Isaan secession which raises an interesting question. It seems to me that the elites worry about revolution whereas secession may be an alternative fear. If we consider the power base of some of the Nouveau Riche lies outside Bangkok with alternative Nak Lengs such as Thaksin/Newin perhaps Thailand might revert in an alternate scenario to a series of dominions as it was in previous eras? This of course is unpleasant for the powers that be but could be a preferred scenario if push ever came to shove? Nationalism is a comparatively recent development here, partially forced on Thailand by 19c western colonialism. Worst case scenario: If an implosion does occur this might be a an all round face saving pragmatic compromise?
Nice to know! There is plenty tourist activity on the Indian side, which unfortunately gets cut off at Pangsau due to the restrictions. Hopefully these should finally be sorted out if the road actually reopens to traffic from India into Burma and finally China. There is a good reason why this road is important, being all weather as opposed to the other land routes between India and China over the frozen Himalayas.
All pictures in the Amazing Arunachal website are by Arif Siddique, an amazing lensman who runs the site as well.
Unless me sense of wry humor has worn off, Chris’ comment about impinging was tongue-in-cheek, or satire, relating to the fact – spelled eff ay cee tee – that the Thai government and in fact many Thai people have spoken out against freedom, free speech and human rights – yes, against – some knowingly, some unknowingly, because of ultra nationalism and xenophobic mind control maintained by those with vested interests in making sure that those Thais who complain about so-called western human rights protests keep complaining and keep being blind that those rights are not just western but human – thus the term ‘human rights.’ Sure, many Thais can howl and whine and scream and shout obscenities at those calling for equality and justice, but all the cacophony makes no difference when it comes to what is right and what is wrong – and not just from a cultural or East vs. West viewpoint, but from what we all share – a human viewpoint. As said before, I have grandchildren growing up here in Thailand. I do not want them arrested for not standing in a theater or for expressing a legitimate opinion about anyone, including the king who himself really told the people to go ahead a few years ago but the people were both afraid and trained not to listen to this kind of royal advice.
As commonly known, there are many theories about whether a people deserve the government they have. Over the decades I have come to appreciate that in at least one sense, globally, they indeed to. Also, they don’t but “the fault is in ourselves…”
By the way, Chris Beale, you don’t have to worry Moroccans, Thais, or Turks will impinge on your western right any time. These people are will just protest formally, but won’t do any real harm. On the other hand, I wonder what would happen if the creative Dutch try this on the Russians, the Chinese, or some of the head of state in the Gulf. Now, that will get interesting.
Dudeist – if they’d just left it at Nicolaides, that probably would have been the end of much international interest.
But then PAD grabbed the airports – stranding 300,000-plus foreigners. :
from here on Thailand’s internal politics have become a matter of continuing international concern, now aggravated into regional concern re. the Cambodia dispute.
I used to think PAD were a worthy cause – at least as a watch-dog against corruption, and their Nation-Religion-King ideology is admirable (so admirable Cambodia has copied it!).
But what was their point seizing airports ?
To force Newin Chidchob with his King Power Duty free shops there, to change sides ?
Nicolaides was about sending a message to foreigners not to get involved.
DT is about sending a message to Thai activists.
Simple.
As for websites, blogs etc the REAL threat comes from the Thai language forums etc. Some of the stuff on there is truly incendiary, seems to be quite widespread and very well-informed.
The English-language blogs etc are often far far behind this (no offense to the good work of NM, BP etc)
But then why are George Washington and Ben Franklin up there too? Are you sure this is translated properly? Or is the US of A now considered the land of oppression by the blessed Euros as well?
I’m exploring the idea that at least some of the conceptual framework of the late, great American comparative historian BARRINGTON MOORE, can be applied to Thailand.
Surfing the ‘net, this particularly interesting morsel appeared :
“In China, an upper class consisting of scholar-officials and landlords wielded considerable influence. The system of examinations by which individuals acquired imperial posts produced an elite group of classically educated men who used their government positions to increase their families’ wealth and land holdings. The means of wealth acquisition were less than legal in most cases, but graft was socially acceptable though illicit. Chinese motivation for development of personal wealth reflected in large part the patrilineal lineage mechanism in place. For the benefit of his family, then, the Chinese scholar used his power to accumulate wealth for his descendants. The avenues leading to the examinations were not equally accessible to all, however, so the peasants were essentially excluded from imperial posts. The significant characteristics of the relationship between the gentry and the peasantry will be described shortly.”
In Thailand – as in Imperial China, before Sun-Yat-Sen, and then Mao’s Revolution – all property, especially all land, belonged ultimately to the King emperor. There was no such thing as absolute private property.
In Thailand, even today – unlike Europe, North America and the Antipodes – there is no such thing as absolute free-hold, independent of the Crown. In Thailand ALL land is ultimately Crown-land : in essence the Chinese Emperor-system.
Especially interesting in that most of Thailand’s Royal wealth is concentrated in land, as opposed to Thaksin’s wealth, concentrated in hi-tech and services (eg. police!).
Actually, there is a simple solution for the Catholic church to all these bans. Just publish the Herald and bibles etc in Bahasa Indonesia. Everyone save face
NO More Ban – The malaysian Govt cannot ban a foreign language. QED
StanG – you and Stephen Young have a valid point re. the hierachical nature of Thai society :
ie. every Thai has a superior/s.
But I guess Thaksin would argue :
1) he has in fact treat HMK as superior.
2) that as an overwhelmingly elected PM, he – Thaksin – was answerable to the electorate, as his superior.
Both points are debatable, of course – it’s just a tragdy this is increasingly less debated in a civilised, peaceful but more and in more in an atmosphere of catastrophic confrontation.
I’ll get back to you more re. Thai society’s hierachical nature, as recently came across very good summary of this.
It is a very importat point you’ve raised, because it not only explains current internal Thai conflict – but also how the way so much of the world is in fundamental conflict with Thai ways of looking at the world.
StanG – re. funelling assets overseas : it was amazing how quickly very detailed information about Marcos assets appeared, via Dr. Alfred McCoy, when there was change in the Philippines.
Suzie Wong – was n’t it General Sarit who introduced the tough LM law ?
And this was AFTER Sarit came to power in 1957 (from memory).
All of which would at least require modification of your theory, though you may be onto something.
I’ve just received a brand new copy of The Devil’s Discus (Second Edition, English) from Asia Bookrooms in Canberra (www.asiabookroom.com), price AUD59.95+shipping.
When I rang them they had only 3 copies and I bought one of them.
Its printed by DMP Publications in HK and has a date on the very back page of 28 November 2009 so quite new.
Dear Sangos,
Thanks for the link on Arunachal and on the Pangsau Pass Winter Festival; wonderful photos and it is really something if anyone can visit that part of the World that has almost zero exposure.
I have received a few emails with regards to my next trip on “Stilwell Road”. As I am unable to bring any westerners past “Tanai”, to organize the “Ledo Road” will be quite limited. Besides, the road becomes more interesting once we past Shinbwiyang and climb into the Paktai mt. range.
I’ve also been informed that some Burmese officials have attended the Naga Festival this year that took place in Nanyun which is 30 miles from Pangsau.
Since “Ledo Road” Expedition becomes limited, I’ve decided to organize a trip on Stilwell Road. If anyone is interested, I’m launching it for March 10 and it starts from Kunming, ending in Yangon. You will travel the entire length of Burma Road and partially on the Ledo.
Thanks for all the comments. The news in Burma about opening up this Ledo Road is somewhat uncertain and inconsistent.
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Stephen B. Young on a “grand consultation”
It’s time Thais stand up for the spirit of Liberté, égalité, fraternité, envisioned by the Founding Fathers of the Thai Constitution of the 1932 Coup d’etat by Dr. Pridi Banomyong. Government of the people, by the people, for the people…
Where all citizens being equal before the law
Where civil and political liberty and rights of every citizen are protected
Where authority of government derives from the consent of people
Where all citizens having equal access to power
Where the contestation over power is allowed in free and fair elections.
Where the supreme power is vested in the simple people and exercised by them through a system of representation involving held free elections
With the absence of hereditary or class distinctions or privileges
With the neutrality of the armed forces
Stephen B. Young on a “grand consultation”
“But I have a sense that in Yeat’s terms, the Thai centre is not holding, pressed between essentially farang values and judgements on one side, and very hierarchical old Thai social practices on the other. Therefore we see in Thailand recently a tendency where the best appear to “lack all conviction” and the worst are filled with “passionate intensity”.”
He sounded as if the wise professor is predicting, in a double-speak, the time now is ripe for the much needed revolution in Thailand.
Last few decades of successful industrialization and financial deregulation of Thai economy has brought forward the new ruling class of industrialists, predominantly the extremely wealthy Thai Chinese, onto the frontline.
Thaksin with the money and ambition is the figurehead and also the epitome of that class and he is not gonna disappear into a peaceful retirement like many other former dictators from old Thailand. Times are changing.
The industrialists are now clashing with the old ruling class, the monarchy and the military, and threatening the well-established status quo.
Democracy along with the individual freedom will eventually come along as the history of western democracies has proved from time to time through ages.
On the judgment against Da Torpedo
I can’t speak for Thai language forums at any length, but when they arrested Prachatai owners it wasn’t for their English blog, and when they went after October rumors it wasn’t to impress farang audience either.
Proliferation of subversive content on itself does not say much, just like proliferation of spam e-mail. Are these ideas getting a wider footprint or just higher intensity from the same old sources? Who can answer that?
In the end it would balance itself, like the print media. People would read only what they want, after forming an opinion of alternatives.
Natural curiosity can’t last forever, and, personally, I don’t think people have formed positive opinions of this “subversive content”.
Also don’t forget that people who spend their time prodicing it naturally attach more importance to their efforts than the rest of the society.
The Allah dilemma in Malaysia
A perspective from an East Malaysian – the two states of Malaysia that is on the island of Borneo where the Bumiputera/indigenous community are mostly Christians. Read here.
The Allah dilemma in Malaysia
Hi Suzie,
Might cannot be right.
In relation to question 1 – depending on you who speak to, it was either (1) the political leadership was responsible for setting the stage for the attacks (refer to my posting on Allah) or (2) it spontaneously oocured but the Government responded very efficiently. The jury is still out there.
In relation to question 2 – well is this not the question we have been trying to solve for ages – the ability to live peacefully. I don’t think might is the way to address issues – it is only a temporary measure. For the past 60 years, Israel has been manipulating situation in the middle east, including whacking the daylight out of its neighbours – so that Israel continues exists. But its citizens are never at peace and how long do you think Israel can do this. You can apply the same logic to Singapore.
We need to move beyond manipulation and mistrust to find some kind of understanding and some principles that we should never cross. One of them must be – to never resort to violence to resolve an issue.
The return of Thailand’s old friend
Have been thinking about Chris Beales comment on Isaan secession which raises an interesting question. It seems to me that the elites worry about revolution whereas secession may be an alternative fear. If we consider the power base of some of the Nouveau Riche lies outside Bangkok with alternative Nak Lengs such as Thaksin/Newin perhaps Thailand might revert in an alternate scenario to a series of dominions as it was in previous eras? This of course is unpleasant for the powers that be but could be a preferred scenario if push ever came to shove? Nationalism is a comparatively recent development here, partially forced on Thailand by 19c western colonialism. Worst case scenario: If an implosion does occur this might be a an all round face saving pragmatic compromise?
The Stilwell Road
@Khine
Nice to know! There is plenty tourist activity on the Indian side, which unfortunately gets cut off at Pangsau due to the restrictions. Hopefully these should finally be sorted out if the road actually reopens to traffic from India into Burma and finally China. There is a good reason why this road is important, being all weather as opposed to the other land routes between India and China over the frozen Himalayas.
All pictures in the Amazing Arunachal website are by Arif Siddique, an amazing lensman who runs the site as well.
“15 years in a tiny Thai apartment …”
Unless me sense of wry humor has worn off, Chris’ comment about impinging was tongue-in-cheek, or satire, relating to the fact – spelled eff ay cee tee – that the Thai government and in fact many Thai people have spoken out against freedom, free speech and human rights – yes, against – some knowingly, some unknowingly, because of ultra nationalism and xenophobic mind control maintained by those with vested interests in making sure that those Thais who complain about so-called western human rights protests keep complaining and keep being blind that those rights are not just western but human – thus the term ‘human rights.’ Sure, many Thais can howl and whine and scream and shout obscenities at those calling for equality and justice, but all the cacophony makes no difference when it comes to what is right and what is wrong – and not just from a cultural or East vs. West viewpoint, but from what we all share – a human viewpoint. As said before, I have grandchildren growing up here in Thailand. I do not want them arrested for not standing in a theater or for expressing a legitimate opinion about anyone, including the king who himself really told the people to go ahead a few years ago but the people were both afraid and trained not to listen to this kind of royal advice.
As commonly known, there are many theories about whether a people deserve the government they have. Over the decades I have come to appreciate that in at least one sense, globally, they indeed to. Also, they don’t but “the fault is in ourselves…”
“15 years in a tiny Thai apartment …”
By the way, Chris Beale, you don’t have to worry Moroccans, Thais, or Turks will impinge on your western right any time. These people are will just protest formally, but won’t do any real harm. On the other hand, I wonder what would happen if the creative Dutch try this on the Russians, the Chinese, or some of the head of state in the Gulf. Now, that will get interesting.
On the judgment against Da Torpedo
Sarit imposed military martial law (articale 7) not lese majeste law. Sarit’s time was short 1957-1963. Sarit had nothing to do with lese majeste law.
On the judgment against Da Torpedo
Dudeist – if they’d just left it at Nicolaides, that probably would have been the end of much international interest.
But then PAD grabbed the airports – stranding 300,000-plus foreigners. :
from here on Thailand’s internal politics have become a matter of continuing international concern, now aggravated into regional concern re. the Cambodia dispute.
I used to think PAD were a worthy cause – at least as a watch-dog against corruption, and their Nation-Religion-King ideology is admirable (so admirable Cambodia has copied it!).
But what was their point seizing airports ?
To force Newin Chidchob with his King Power Duty free shops there, to change sides ?
On the judgment against Da Torpedo
StanG
Nicolaides was about sending a message to foreigners not to get involved.
DT is about sending a message to Thai activists.
Simple.
As for websites, blogs etc the REAL threat comes from the Thai language forums etc. Some of the stuff on there is truly incendiary, seems to be quite widespread and very well-informed.
The English-language blogs etc are often far far behind this (no offense to the good work of NM, BP etc)
“15 years in a tiny Thai apartment …”
But then why are George Washington and Ben Franklin up there too? Are you sure this is translated properly? Or is the US of A now considered the land of oppression by the blessed Euros as well?
The return of Thailand’s old friend
I’m exploring the idea that at least some of the conceptual framework of the late, great American comparative historian BARRINGTON MOORE, can be applied to Thailand.
Surfing the ‘net, this particularly interesting morsel appeared :
“In China, an upper class consisting of scholar-officials and landlords wielded considerable influence. The system of examinations by which individuals acquired imperial posts produced an elite group of classically educated men who used their government positions to increase their families’ wealth and land holdings. The means of wealth acquisition were less than legal in most cases, but graft was socially acceptable though illicit. Chinese motivation for development of personal wealth reflected in large part the patrilineal lineage mechanism in place. For the benefit of his family, then, the Chinese scholar used his power to accumulate wealth for his descendants. The avenues leading to the examinations were not equally accessible to all, however, so the peasants were essentially excluded from imperial posts. The significant characteristics of the relationship between the gentry and the peasantry will be described shortly.”
In Thailand – as in Imperial China, before Sun-Yat-Sen, and then Mao’s Revolution – all property, especially all land, belonged ultimately to the King emperor. There was no such thing as absolute private property.
In Thailand, even today – unlike Europe, North America and the Antipodes – there is no such thing as absolute free-hold, independent of the Crown. In Thailand ALL land is ultimately Crown-land : in essence the Chinese Emperor-system.
Especially interesting in that most of Thailand’s Royal wealth is concentrated in land, as opposed to Thaksin’s wealth, concentrated in hi-tech and services (eg. police!).
Rachel Leow on Malaysian Allah
Actually, there is a simple solution for the Catholic church to all these bans. Just publish the Herald and bibles etc in Bahasa Indonesia. Everyone save face
NO More Ban – The malaysian Govt cannot ban a foreign language. QED
On the judgment against Da Torpedo
money……
its easy for rich people to forget they are human….
The return of Thailand’s old friend
StanG – you and Stephen Young have a valid point re. the hierachical nature of Thai society :
ie. every Thai has a superior/s.
But I guess Thaksin would argue :
1) he has in fact treat HMK as superior.
2) that as an overwhelmingly elected PM, he – Thaksin – was answerable to the electorate, as his superior.
Both points are debatable, of course – it’s just a tragdy this is increasingly less debated in a civilised, peaceful but more and in more in an atmosphere of catastrophic confrontation.
I’ll get back to you more re. Thai society’s hierachical nature, as recently came across very good summary of this.
It is a very importat point you’ve raised, because it not only explains current internal Thai conflict – but also how the way so much of the world is in fundamental conflict with Thai ways of looking at the world.
On the judgment against Da Torpedo
StanG – re. funelling assets overseas : it was amazing how quickly very detailed information about Marcos assets appeared, via Dr. Alfred McCoy, when there was change in the Philippines.
Suzie Wong – was n’t it General Sarit who introduced the tough LM law ?
And this was AFTER Sarit came to power in 1957 (from memory).
All of which would at least require modification of your theory, though you may be onto something.
The Devil’s Discus – in Thai
I’ve just received a brand new copy of The Devil’s Discus (Second Edition, English) from Asia Bookrooms in Canberra (www.asiabookroom.com), price AUD59.95+shipping.
When I rang them they had only 3 copies and I bought one of them.
Its printed by DMP Publications in HK and has a date on the very back page of 28 November 2009 so quite new.
The Stilwell Road
Dear Sangos,
Thanks for the link on Arunachal and on the Pangsau Pass Winter Festival; wonderful photos and it is really something if anyone can visit that part of the World that has almost zero exposure.
I have received a few emails with regards to my next trip on “Stilwell Road”. As I am unable to bring any westerners past “Tanai”, to organize the “Ledo Road” will be quite limited. Besides, the road becomes more interesting once we past Shinbwiyang and climb into the Paktai mt. range.
I’ve also been informed that some Burmese officials have attended the Naga Festival this year that took place in Nanyun which is 30 miles from Pangsau.
Since “Ledo Road” Expedition becomes limited, I’ve decided to organize a trip on Stilwell Road. If anyone is interested, I’m launching it for March 10 and it starts from Kunming, ending in Yangon. You will travel the entire length of Burma Road and partially on the Ledo.
Thanks for all the comments. The news in Burma about opening up this Ledo Road is somewhat uncertain and inconsistent.
Sincerely – Khine