Plan B, it is quite obvious for some time now that many people, whether they are Burmese exiles or westerners, are making their fame and, also fortune, out of the infamy of Burma and her long suffering people.
We could blame it partly on the immense popularity of ASSK in the West and also the extreme stupidity of Burmese Army too.
Jon Ungpakorn, thank you very much for your leadership. It takes the status of the Ungpakorn to be able to pull this off. In time like this, the country needs someone trustworthy. Siam Thailand always respect and trust the Ungpakorn. Thank you again for your initiative. May God bless you!
Although I am not familiar enough with Vietnamese and the Vietnamese language to detect subtle meanings in words, one of the first things I learned from a Lao about the Thai-Lao relationship (and this was in the early 1970s) was the phrase, “Thai thot Lao ot.”
Ko Hla Oo
the 3 for lifting happen to hold impeccable credential of having seen it all from inside as well as how it really look from the out side.
As for the other 3:
1) None have ever visited Myanmar.
2) None has any vested interest of relative and friends other than pure theoretical, academic interest at heart that benefit from the Bash-A -Junta personally. Not to mention the unwarranted incivility suffered by their opposing viewers.
3) Everyone attain their respected tittle at the expense of their useless advocacy under the guise of Human rights etc.
The fact that they even show up and present their POV is proof how arrogance trumps reality in their made believe world.
Couldn’t wait for the next session.
I am not able to follow your line of questions and arguments, Susie.
You are right that most of ASEAN are clientele of the U.S. and that the U.S. maintains regimes even if they are corrupt as long as they are supportive of U.S. policies. This may also explain why Australia is favourable towards the Thai monarchy, to Malaysia and even to Lee Kuan Yew.
But that does not mean that citizens should just lay back and accept corruption. Citizens must rise up against any corrupt government – no matter the odds.
I understand that many Laotians have strong sentiment against the Thais especially on past history of colonialisation and current day discrimination, but the video and its description is totally misleading since it was the Vietnamese crowd (with Vietnamese flag), not Laotians that were cheering when the Vietnamese team scored.
Simon,
Do you know of any evidence of official involvement in the creation of these ‘Vietnamese’ crowds? I wonder if this was an interesting combination of classic communist mass mobilisation (if you don’t wear a Vietnamese t-shirt you will get into trouble) and popular nationalist dislike for Thailand (let’s wear Vietnamese t-shirts because we hate the Thai). There is certainly enough hybridity in Vientiane (Lao-Thai-Vietnamese of all varieties and backgrounds) for a neutrality to exist, but there was no space for it in that stadium.
The fundamental problem I have long had with Thitinan’s often excellence analysis is this :
Where are the Lao ? Where is Lanna ?
He talks – because he has to, given “Thailand’s” repressive laws
in very guarded terms.
But the reality is :
this is now almost breaking point :
southern, Bangkok-based “Thailand” against Isaarn and Lanna, now increasingly acting as separate states – if not yet separate nations.
Eg. PM Wongsuwat can not visit Bangkok, Abhisit dare not visit Chiang Mai. Effectively two different states.
The fascist-inspired “Thai” state has almost collapsed.
This is a great topic – congratulations to the writer who started it, and all four commentators – who all make very valid points.
I’ve visited both countries many times – love them both – and would just add three points :
1) it has long seemed to me the number one thing Lao care most about in relation to Thailand is their family brethren just across the Mekong River. They’re used to being looked down upon by far too many Bangkok Thais (this very unpleasant attitude), but can suffer that as long as nothing happpens to their brethren just a short journey across that narrow river.
2) Lao is a much more egalitarian, frontier society than Thailand,
whose hierarchy is subtle, difficult for us farang to understand, but one of the most hierachical in the world – indeed out of synch with much, if not most, of the modern world.
3) Now that Lao has moved to a market economy and abandoned forced collectivism, which like everywhere else
was a dismal failure, and memories fade of Thailand’s hosting the American bases which dropped more bombs on Laos than any other country in the world, the two countries may eventually re-unite under a loose federation called Siam.
Or is that too fanciful ?
The PAD may have started as an independent anti-Thaksin/anti-corruption movement, but was instrumentalized by the traditional elites as soon as they saw their potential. Many supporters left the PAD after the military coup, and quite a few of them you can find now in the Red Shirts. Nevertheless, even though the PAD did the bidding of those sectors, especially in 2008, they were not just a tool, but their political aims do go far beyond of what their backers in the shadows aim for. The PAD are a nationalist-revolutionary movement with strong third-positionist ideologies.
I do not see the “majority of people trying to stay as far away from both camps as possible”. That may be reported by by the media as the new catch phrase – the “silent majority”.
The silent majority i see, especially and also in my daily life in a average working class/lower middle class neighborhood (and those sectors are the numerical majority here in Bangkok), has very strong support for the Red Shirt’s political aims. Most people may have no time to attend the protests as they have to work very hard, but they do talk about politics (a trend that has started with the introduction of Thaksin’s populist policies).
In the villages of Isaarn and the North i have seen very similar political views.
Over the past year we have had many attempts to orchestrate such a “silent majority”, or a “unity” movement. So far every single attempt failed miserably. Just think about what happened with the anti-petition signature campaign – we heard nothing anymore about it. How many signatures have they collected? What about the “white shirts”? One public appearance, trying to begin a country-wide movement – and nothing anymore.
We are talking about countries under the U.K. and the U.S. sphere of influence (the Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Siam, Singapore). If the U.S. and U.K. have no intention to change but to maintain status quo. I am skeptical if anything can be done.
What I am trying to say is that the issues we are discussing here is a political issue. Because maintaining the sphere of influence is more important than solving corruption issue in the U.S. and U. K . calculation or any great powers calculation. If the U.S. and U.K. want to maintain their clients in power, I think the issue like corruption would be tolerate. For example two days ago on Dec. 2nd, the worst design for the Thai new parliament won the competition because the board composition was all appointed by the network monarchy. It is an open corruption but the U.S. and U.K don’t care and average people can’t do anything. So I just wonder if academics is wasting their time to research on political issue without paying attention on putting pressure on the U.S. and U.K or building a mass movement to change it. In other words, great powers will cooperate on “non-political” issue such as transportation services, etc. but once the issue is “political” I don’t think you can rock the boat.
I think a few things were left out of the story presented here. I happened to be driving into Vientiane about 3:00 that afternoon, and already the Vietnamese flags and red t-shirts were gathering at the sports complex. Then, going by the morning market, we could see a lot of red again and it turns out free tickets to the game along with free t-shirts were being distributed to anyone who would (ostensibly) cheer for Vietnam. So at least part of the so-called siding with Vietnam was in fact bought and paid for.
Of course, as indicated, there is a considerable Vietnamese population residing in Vietnam. Some of these descend from old families brought in by the French during the colonial period. Others are workers and skilled labor, both legal and illegal, who have been arriving, and often staying, for many years now. The former have an identity crisis, being at once Lao and Vietnamese, while the latter are unabashedly Vietnamese. Many (ethnic) Lao around Vientiane were joking that if you want to know the number of Vietnamese living in Laos (always a difficult figure to cite) just go to the stadium and count. So I have no doubt that the majority of the fans in the stadium for that match were ethnically Vietnamese.
Most ethnic Lao would probably be ambivalent, but were looking forward to a good football game. Politically, of course, it is better to be seen cheering for Vietnam, but most people in Vientiane (themselves of varying provincial backgrounds, having long intermixed with the city people who are Vietnamese, Cantonese, Hakka, Hainanese, Nung, Punjabi, Gujarati, Pakistani, French, German, …etc, tend to judge people as individuals rather than as nationalities. Westerners who have lived in Thailand are often surprised to discover that in Laos “Farang” means French, not white man as it does in Thailand.
As for relations with Thailand, one has only to count – if that were possible – the number of intermarriages, and see the thousands of Lao people who line up at the bridge every week-end to go to Thailand for shopping, movies, concerts, and so on.
So I really don’t wholly agree with the tone of the story here.
I’m not an expert in SEA and my english is not as good as i’d like but i’ll try to put forward my own interpretation.
May be this is the proof that all this story of regional integration is just the political version of esperanto. Perhaps we haven’t seriously thought about the possibility of being assuming the starting point, that is, SEA exists beyond a mere geographical concept. SEA, like the European Union, is neither a nation nor a state, but club of sharks ready to risk being eaten alive.
Nationalist tensions are also the proof that, despite globalization, the model of the nation-state is still the main force shaping human communities. Even more in a region where this model is a recent phenomenon.
So it is not surprising at all that laotian, vietnamese and thai still drag these problems of alleged national idiosyncrasies and mutual distrust.
Well, as a Thai, I admit one thing that many of Thai people trend to “look down” the neighbors, esp. from Lao, Cambodia, and Burma.
When Shaigon broke apart during the Vietnam war, many Vietnamese fled out the country as we may have known as “boat people”, some fled through the boarder of Thailand and Lao. The Thai dudes at that time, instead of providing a good shelter, but they…what to say, tried to abuse those poor men, women (I think it’s like in the movie, Gran Torino, played by Clint Eastwood). That made they looked Thai as a beast.
Just like America, they think they’re BIG and cool. So do the Thai (some).
As for Lao, many Thai, especially from the central part of Thailand (Bangkok elites, let’s say), they make fun of those Isaan people as a Lao (meaning dumb or stupid).
What’s it call? Prejudice?
The problem is, many of Thai people are too lazy to study their root. They are too lazy to learn from mistake. They just wait to be fed by the central government. (you guys know the elites rule this government and the Thai media).
However, I don’t think this is a big deal as it’s quite common for every countries that share the border.
American make fun for Canadian, and Mexican (or Cuban). The French make fun for the British, and so on.
Nick, I’m glad people moved on from simplistic “evil elites vs good people” understanding of the Thailand’s conflict.
I don’t know what your opinion was a year or two ago, I myself never believed PAD to be just a tool of elites. The elites (let’s say Prem and Co) were rather reacting to PAD’s movements, from the coup to the court decision against PPP which was practically forced by PAD when they blocked the airports.
The country is also moving past the extreme yellow-red polarization with majority of people trying to stay as far away from both camps as possible, settling with the devils they know – Newin, Democrats, Chavalit. This creates ideological vacuum as PAD prepares to unleash their New Politics on the mainstream society, or some other version of “think new act new” comes along.
I’d give a year or two at most – people will want their political entertainment again, they will want new shows and a new cast.
I am not sure whether references such as “presidential-style elective leader” do not reproduce the view of the ammart, who are fond of denouncing Thaksin’s time as “semi-presidentialism”–for obvious reasons. Thaksin had to be elected by parliament. Many parliamentary systems use much more proportionality in their election systems than Thailand does, without being called presidential. Would it make sense to call Thatcher or Blair, elected by using a majoritarian system, “semi-presidents”?
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Benedict Rogers on Than Shwe
Plan B, it is quite obvious for some time now that many people, whether they are Burmese exiles or westerners, are making their fame and, also fortune, out of the infamy of Burma and her long suffering people.
We could blame it partly on the immense popularity of ASSK in the West and also the extreme stupidity of Burmese Army too.
Thai transitions
Jon Ungpakorn, thank you very much for your leadership. It takes the status of the Ungpakorn to be able to pull this off. In time like this, the country needs someone trustworthy. Siam Thailand always respect and trust the Ungpakorn. Thank you again for your initiative. May God bless you!
Thailand 1 – Vietnam (and Laos) 1
Although I am not familiar enough with Vietnamese and the Vietnamese language to detect subtle meanings in words, one of the first things I learned from a Lao about the Thai-Lao relationship (and this was in the early 1970s) was the phrase, “Thai thot Lao ot.”
Benedict Rogers on Than Shwe
Ko Hla Oo
the 3 for lifting happen to hold impeccable credential of having seen it all from inside as well as how it really look from the out side.
As for the other 3:
1) None have ever visited Myanmar.
2) None has any vested interest of relative and friends other than pure theoretical, academic interest at heart that benefit from the Bash-A -Junta personally. Not to mention the unwarranted incivility suffered by their opposing viewers.
3) Everyone attain their respected tittle at the expense of their useless advocacy under the guise of Human rights etc.
The fact that they even show up and present their POV is proof how arrogance trumps reality in their made believe world.
Couldn’t wait for the next session.
Mahathir squandered RM100 billion says new book
Another review of Wain’s book.
Mahathir squandered RM100 billion says new book
I am not able to follow your line of questions and arguments, Susie.
You are right that most of ASEAN are clientele of the U.S. and that the U.S. maintains regimes even if they are corrupt as long as they are supportive of U.S. policies. This may also explain why Australia is favourable towards the Thai monarchy, to Malaysia and even to Lee Kuan Yew.
But that does not mean that citizens should just lay back and accept corruption. Citizens must rise up against any corrupt government – no matter the odds.
Video of Vietnam’s goal
I understand that many Laotians have strong sentiment against the Thais especially on past history of colonialisation and current day discrimination, but the video and its description is totally misleading since it was the Vietnamese crowd (with Vietnamese flag), not Laotians that were cheering when the Vietnamese team scored.
Thailand 1 – Vietnam (and Laos) 1
[…] XHTML ← Thailand 1 – Vietnam (and Laos) 1 […]
Thailand 1 – Vietnam (and Laos) 1
Simon,
Do you know of any evidence of official involvement in the creation of these ‘Vietnamese’ crowds? I wonder if this was an interesting combination of classic communist mass mobilisation (if you don’t wear a Vietnamese t-shirt you will get into trouble) and popular nationalist dislike for Thailand (let’s wear Vietnamese t-shirts because we hate the Thai). There is certainly enough hybridity in Vientiane (Lao-Thai-Vietnamese of all varieties and backgrounds) for a neutrality to exist, but there was no space for it in that stadium.
Thitinan on Thailand’s labour pains
The fundamental problem I have long had with Thitinan’s often excellence analysis is this :
Where are the Lao ? Where is Lanna ?
He talks – because he has to, given “Thailand’s” repressive laws
in very guarded terms.
But the reality is :
this is now almost breaking point :
southern, Bangkok-based “Thailand” against Isaarn and Lanna, now increasingly acting as separate states – if not yet separate nations.
Eg. PM Wongsuwat can not visit Bangkok, Abhisit dare not visit Chiang Mai. Effectively two different states.
The fascist-inspired “Thai” state has almost collapsed.
Thailand 1 – Vietnam (and Laos) 1
This is a great topic – congratulations to the writer who started it, and all four commentators – who all make very valid points.
I’ve visited both countries many times – love them both – and would just add three points :
1) it has long seemed to me the number one thing Lao care most about in relation to Thailand is their family brethren just across the Mekong River. They’re used to being looked down upon by far too many Bangkok Thais (this very unpleasant attitude), but can suffer that as long as nothing happpens to their brethren just a short journey across that narrow river.
2) Lao is a much more egalitarian, frontier society than Thailand,
whose hierarchy is subtle, difficult for us farang to understand, but one of the most hierachical in the world – indeed out of synch with much, if not most, of the modern world.
3) Now that Lao has moved to a market economy and abandoned forced collectivism, which like everywhere else
was a dismal failure, and memories fade of Thailand’s hosting the American bases which dropped more bombs on Laos than any other country in the world, the two countries may eventually re-unite under a loose federation called Siam.
Or is that too fanciful ?
The Devil’s Discus – in Thai
[…] readers may wish to follow this discussion at New Mandala: http://www.newmandala.org/2008/05/29/the-devils-discus-in-thai/ or to read The Devil’s Discus: […]
Abhisit at Samak’s funeral
“StanG”:
The PAD may have started as an independent anti-Thaksin/anti-corruption movement, but was instrumentalized by the traditional elites as soon as they saw their potential. Many supporters left the PAD after the military coup, and quite a few of them you can find now in the Red Shirts. Nevertheless, even though the PAD did the bidding of those sectors, especially in 2008, they were not just a tool, but their political aims do go far beyond of what their backers in the shadows aim for. The PAD are a nationalist-revolutionary movement with strong third-positionist ideologies.
I do not see the “majority of people trying to stay as far away from both camps as possible”. That may be reported by by the media as the new catch phrase – the “silent majority”.
The silent majority i see, especially and also in my daily life in a average working class/lower middle class neighborhood (and those sectors are the numerical majority here in Bangkok), has very strong support for the Red Shirt’s political aims. Most people may have no time to attend the protests as they have to work very hard, but they do talk about politics (a trend that has started with the introduction of Thaksin’s populist policies).
In the villages of Isaarn and the North i have seen very similar political views.
Over the past year we have had many attempts to orchestrate such a “silent majority”, or a “unity” movement. So far every single attempt failed miserably. Just think about what happened with the anti-petition signature campaign – we heard nothing anymore about it. How many signatures have they collected? What about the “white shirts”? One public appearance, trying to begin a country-wide movement – and nothing anymore.
Mahathir squandered RM100 billion says new book
We are talking about countries under the U.K. and the U.S. sphere of influence (the Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Siam, Singapore). If the U.S. and U.K. have no intention to change but to maintain status quo. I am skeptical if anything can be done.
What I am trying to say is that the issues we are discussing here is a political issue. Because maintaining the sphere of influence is more important than solving corruption issue in the U.S. and U. K . calculation or any great powers calculation. If the U.S. and U.K. want to maintain their clients in power, I think the issue like corruption would be tolerate. For example two days ago on Dec. 2nd, the worst design for the Thai new parliament won the competition because the board composition was all appointed by the network monarchy. It is an open corruption but the U.S. and U.K don’t care and average people can’t do anything. So I just wonder if academics is wasting their time to research on political issue without paying attention on putting pressure on the U.S. and U.K or building a mass movement to change it. In other words, great powers will cooperate on “non-political” issue such as transportation services, etc. but once the issue is “political” I don’t think you can rock the boat.
Thailand 1 – Vietnam (and Laos) 1
I think a few things were left out of the story presented here. I happened to be driving into Vientiane about 3:00 that afternoon, and already the Vietnamese flags and red t-shirts were gathering at the sports complex. Then, going by the morning market, we could see a lot of red again and it turns out free tickets to the game along with free t-shirts were being distributed to anyone who would (ostensibly) cheer for Vietnam. So at least part of the so-called siding with Vietnam was in fact bought and paid for.
Of course, as indicated, there is a considerable Vietnamese population residing in Vietnam. Some of these descend from old families brought in by the French during the colonial period. Others are workers and skilled labor, both legal and illegal, who have been arriving, and often staying, for many years now. The former have an identity crisis, being at once Lao and Vietnamese, while the latter are unabashedly Vietnamese. Many (ethnic) Lao around Vientiane were joking that if you want to know the number of Vietnamese living in Laos (always a difficult figure to cite) just go to the stadium and count. So I have no doubt that the majority of the fans in the stadium for that match were ethnically Vietnamese.
Most ethnic Lao would probably be ambivalent, but were looking forward to a good football game. Politically, of course, it is better to be seen cheering for Vietnam, but most people in Vientiane (themselves of varying provincial backgrounds, having long intermixed with the city people who are Vietnamese, Cantonese, Hakka, Hainanese, Nung, Punjabi, Gujarati, Pakistani, French, German, …etc, tend to judge people as individuals rather than as nationalities. Westerners who have lived in Thailand are often surprised to discover that in Laos “Farang” means French, not white man as it does in Thailand.
As for relations with Thailand, one has only to count – if that were possible – the number of intermarriages, and see the thousands of Lao people who line up at the bridge every week-end to go to Thailand for shopping, movies, concerts, and so on.
So I really don’t wholly agree with the tone of the story here.
Thailand 1 – Vietnam (and Laos) 1
I’m not an expert in SEA and my english is not as good as i’d like but i’ll try to put forward my own interpretation.
May be this is the proof that all this story of regional integration is just the political version of esperanto. Perhaps we haven’t seriously thought about the possibility of being assuming the starting point, that is, SEA exists beyond a mere geographical concept. SEA, like the European Union, is neither a nation nor a state, but club of sharks ready to risk being eaten alive.
Nationalist tensions are also the proof that, despite globalization, the model of the nation-state is still the main force shaping human communities. Even more in a region where this model is a recent phenomenon.
So it is not surprising at all that laotian, vietnamese and thai still drag these problems of alleged national idiosyncrasies and mutual distrust.
Thailand 1 – Vietnam (and Laos) 1
Well, as a Thai, I admit one thing that many of Thai people trend to “look down” the neighbors, esp. from Lao, Cambodia, and Burma.
When Shaigon broke apart during the Vietnam war, many Vietnamese fled out the country as we may have known as “boat people”, some fled through the boarder of Thailand and Lao. The Thai dudes at that time, instead of providing a good shelter, but they…what to say, tried to abuse those poor men, women (I think it’s like in the movie, Gran Torino, played by Clint Eastwood). That made they looked Thai as a beast.
Just like America, they think they’re BIG and cool. So do the Thai (some).
As for Lao, many Thai, especially from the central part of Thailand (Bangkok elites, let’s say), they make fun of those Isaan people as a Lao (meaning dumb or stupid).
What’s it call? Prejudice?
The problem is, many of Thai people are too lazy to study their root. They are too lazy to learn from mistake. They just wait to be fed by the central government. (you guys know the elites rule this government and the Thai media).
However, I don’t think this is a big deal as it’s quite common for every countries that share the border.
American make fun for Canadian, and Mexican (or Cuban). The French make fun for the British, and so on.
Abhisit at Samak’s funeral
Nick, I’m glad people moved on from simplistic “evil elites vs good people” understanding of the Thailand’s conflict.
I don’t know what your opinion was a year or two ago, I myself never believed PAD to be just a tool of elites. The elites (let’s say Prem and Co) were rather reacting to PAD’s movements, from the coup to the court decision against PPP which was practically forced by PAD when they blocked the airports.
The country is also moving past the extreme yellow-red polarization with majority of people trying to stay as far away from both camps as possible, settling with the devils they know – Newin, Democrats, Chavalit. This creates ideological vacuum as PAD prepares to unleash their New Politics on the mainstream society, or some other version of “think new act new” comes along.
I’d give a year or two at most – people will want their political entertainment again, they will want new shows and a new cast.
Thailand 1 – Vietnam (and Laos) 1
Dear Simon, Great story, Incidently what brings you to Laos?
Cheers
Peter
Abhisit at Samak’s funeral
I am not sure whether references such as “presidential-style elective leader” do not reproduce the view of the ammart, who are fond of denouncing Thaksin’s time as “semi-presidentialism”–for obvious reasons. Thaksin had to be elected by parliament. Many parliamentary systems use much more proportionality in their election systems than Thailand does, without being called presidential. Would it make sense to call Thatcher or Blair, elected by using a majoritarian system, “semi-presidents”?