It is a really interesting subject. Burmese came out slow and then a deluge. And varies so much yet can be grouped as well. The very first ones are mostly (for want of better words) hybrids (or uncharitably half-bred’s- anglo/-indian- something or other) heading to UK or Australia and less to Canada. They tend to be service personnel or of the administration services of the Raj.
Then next wave is professionals mostly to UK, US and Hong Kong, and mostly doctors. In UK the saying used to be that if you see a Burmese, just call “Doctor” as they have the international meal tickets.
Then recent waves after waves of workers to Thailand, Japan, Korea and Malaysia as well as Qatar. This is in parallel to the surging professionals emigres again mainly to UK and US and mostly doctors and many academics to Singapore and Malaysia.
Political refugees are numerous and also varied from students to academics to farmers. Most have well established in camps by Thai borders for decades and a lot of them are simply business people who can buy the tickets.
It is though well established that with migrations, there is hardly any social mobility. And that is reflected in separate “groupings” seen in all emigre countries.
It sure would make intriguing and absorbing academic study.
No, Human Rights is not wishy-washy. But for those totalitarian totally un-elected pigs in the trough even using the word with their fat lips is unworthy.
At least Britain can decide when to have their election without having to kiss Juncker’s anatomy. And ignore Goldman Sack’s Draghi unlike the sadistic Americans who delight under ministrations of Hank Poulson.
Could the original article be over-analysing the situation? Another way of looking at the responses by the President and Cabinet is that they would be completely understood by the Chinese, who use this type of double-speak regularly (maintain sovereignty, but still remain friends). Perhaps we don’t need to go back in history for the background to the Indonesian response. Rather, accept it as gentle push-back against a muddled, hawkish, Chinese policy on the South China sea.
You are departing with your tail between your legs Andrew, because you can not argue your case beyond reasonable doubt. Instead you have resorted to the preposterous and ridiculous – eg. “armchair theorists” (as if you are not one!), “eccentricities”, and worst of all : Bumiphol to be put on trial. I’ve NEVER suggested such an outrage. But Bumiphol – like every else – is entitled to the protection of proper legal standards, for the sake of his good name, and much else. This is, after all the death of his dearly beloved brother.
Can you prove that I make utterly disgraceful statements and should be ashamed of myself, Chris? I thought under your rules I was innocent until proven guilty? This exchange is getting a little silly so I will withdraw and let others form their own views. Cheers!
Kishore Mahbubani rose to fame a couple of decades ago as the theorist of ‘Asian values’. How sad it is that he didn’t have time in this brief interview to update us on where Asian values are at present. Where in the dispute between China and the Philippines, for example, can we locate Asian values? On a median line half-way between the two countries, perhaps?
Speaking no doubt before Brexit, Mahbubani can’t be blamed for praising the EU as the leading regional organisation in the world. Who was to know that Britain would leave? Probably only observers or analysts who paid some attention to British public opinion. But, watching Mahbubani in this interview, one doesn’t have the impression that he is very interested in public opinion.
Since Mahbubani was no doubt once described by Time Magazine as one of the most influential of global thinkers, we should perhaps try a different tack. Let us assume that he knew Britain would leave but somehow thought that losing the member country possessing the second largest economy would nevertheless not undermine the EU’s top dog status. But, if this more charitable explanation is correct, it clashes with his praise of ASEAN’s bringing economic prosperity to Southeast Asia.
It is one of the idiosyncracies of Singapore’s polity and civil service that it is citizens of South Asian origin who tend to be the most provocative. They also tend to lay down the law about how Australia should behave towards Asia, and how Australians should behave towards Asians. This is why it is inappropriate to treat them with undue deference.
Bilahari Kausikan, a former permanent secretary of the Foreign Ministry, is even more outspoken than Mahbubani, though I don’t know what his ‘take’ on Asian values happens to be. Maybe Asian values didn’t make it into the new century.
Readers of this website who are familiar with Bilahari’s public utterances should know that they can’t compare with what he says in private.
[…] taking different views on the role of the monarchy under the military dictatorship. The first is by “Llewellyn McCann” at New Mandala and the second is from Ji Ungpakorn at […]
This is not a courtroom, Chris. There is no conceivable prospect of Bhumibol Adulyadej going to jail over his killing of Ananda Mahidol. So the judicial presumption of innocence is irrelevant here.
You are entitled to your interpretation of the facts, however eccentric it may be, and sensible observers are entitled to disagree with you and state clearly that it is overwhelmingly likely that Bhumibol shot his brother.
Dear Andrew MacGregor Marshall, you have missed my point. Or rather points :
a) that Bumiphol is entitled to a presumption of innocence. At least under British/ American law (and let’s not forget : Bumiphol is American-born). Continental European law is neutral, I.e. no presumption, of neither innocence nor guilt.
b) Ananda’s MURDER COULD ONLY HAVE BEEN DELIBERATE REGICIDE, because of the two INCONTROVERTIBLE FACTS you cite in that link you provide – I.e. a Colt .45 is a heavy instrument when loaded with bullets, and the safety catch has to be pressed down, with considerable force.
c) Bumiphol HIMSELF has denied it was an “accident”. This he clearly does in that BBC interview – Soul Of A Nation – which you cite.
IF Bumiphol fired the fatal shot – which I doubt – then I think he was victim of a set-up. I.e the gun was loaded with ONLY ONE BULLET ( so did
not weigh noticeably more than when empty) AND THE SAFETY CATCH HAD BEEN DISABLED. But I believe Bumiphol’s story that when he entered the room, he found his brother already dead. Presumption of innocence.
ASEAN was founded by only five countries in Bangkok in 1967. It turns fifty in 2017, not sixty. Four of its ten members joined only two decades ago, after the Cold War. For most of its existence it operated without legal personality.
Also, Kishore Mahbubani is promoting: “clearly the second most successful regional body behind the EU.” Really? Many observers would make the case the African Union has been more successful of late than ASEAN, especially in terms of acting collectively on human rights and regional peacekeeping. Although the AU still lacks, its current direction is more admirable than ASEAN’s. ASEAN integration has been economic oriented in the service of business and growth, not political life or human security. Any regional defense of human rights, democratic institutions, and civil liberties remains anemic. The “ASEAN Way” values non-interference of its governments far more than the civil and political liberties of everyday Southeast Asians.
ASEAN has much to learn from the AU in terms of articulating the case for basic democratic norms and seeing the region from the perspective of its people, not just diplomatic and business elites. ASEAN has been defined by its inaction not its action. Its “success” is debatable. The geopolitical risks Mahbubani mentions only incentivize SE Asian governments to maintain non-interference in the world’s second most undemocratic region.
Thank you, James. I have to say I prefer the previous design where you had links to other posts and recent comments on the same page. On top of that I can barely see what I’m writing on my Kindle with the masthead in the way, and keep accidentally tapping menu etc.!
Author is right on target and has accurately pointed out with clarity, the tenuous situation in present day Thailand and given a behind the scenes look at the maneuvers and juggling act Prayuth and his cronies are playing. I do fear that the outcome of the referendum will be rigged to get the result they badly want, which will keep them in power, albeit behind the scenes, as a puppet master, who pulls the strings behind the curtain.
I have no doubt, with the decades of the majority of hard working Thais being suppressed and economically falling behind, once this King passes, there will be a lengthy period of mourning, then something will trigger an uprising and the dynamite keg will erupt, and the millions of Thais will protest and say “NO MORE.”
In the move to the new website, some of the comments disappeared. We are currently working with our web developers to restore them. Thanks for you patience.
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Academic analysis in the age of reform
It is a really interesting subject. Burmese came out slow and then a deluge. And varies so much yet can be grouped as well. The very first ones are mostly (for want of better words) hybrids (or uncharitably half-bred’s- anglo/-indian- something or other) heading to UK or Australia and less to Canada. They tend to be service personnel or of the administration services of the Raj.
Then next wave is professionals mostly to UK, US and Hong Kong, and mostly doctors. In UK the saying used to be that if you see a Burmese, just call “Doctor” as they have the international meal tickets.
Then recent waves after waves of workers to Thailand, Japan, Korea and Malaysia as well as Qatar. This is in parallel to the surging professionals emigres again mainly to UK and US and mostly doctors and many academics to Singapore and Malaysia.
Political refugees are numerous and also varied from students to academics to farmers. Most have well established in camps by Thai borders for decades and a lot of them are simply business people who can buy the tickets.
It is though well established that with migrations, there is hardly any social mobility. And that is reflected in separate “groupings” seen in all emigre countries.
It sure would make intriguing and absorbing academic study.
What Brexit means for ASEAN
No, Human Rights is not wishy-washy. But for those totalitarian totally un-elected pigs in the trough even using the word with their fat lips is unworthy.
At least Britain can decide when to have their election without having to kiss Juncker’s anatomy. And ignore Goldman Sack’s Draghi unlike the sadistic Americans who delight under ministrations of Hank Poulson.
Is Cambodia becoming the sick man of Southeast Asia?
In fact, it is a realistic perspective. Face it, my dear.
What Brexit means for ASEAN
There is nothing wishy washy about human rights.
The collapsing Pound has now moved Little Britain to third place after France.
Jakarta left all at sea by island clash with China
Could the original article be over-analysing the situation? Another way of looking at the responses by the President and Cabinet is that they would be completely understood by the Chinese, who use this type of double-speak regularly (maintain sovereignty, but still remain friends). Perhaps we don’t need to go back in history for the background to the Indonesian response. Rather, accept it as gentle push-back against a muddled, hawkish, Chinese policy on the South China sea.
The King is (nearly) dead: long live the King?
You are departing with your tail between your legs Andrew, because you can not argue your case beyond reasonable doubt. Instead you have resorted to the preposterous and ridiculous – eg. “armchair theorists” (as if you are not one!), “eccentricities”, and worst of all : Bumiphol to be put on trial. I’ve NEVER suggested such an outrage. But Bumiphol – like every else – is entitled to the protection of proper legal standards, for the sake of his good name, and much else. This is, after all the death of his dearly beloved brother.
The King is (nearly) dead: long live the King?
Can you prove that I make utterly disgraceful statements and should be ashamed of myself, Chris? I thought under your rules I was innocent until proven guilty? This exchange is getting a little silly so I will withdraw and let others form their own views. Cheers!
The ASEAN experiment
Kishore Mahbubani rose to fame a couple of decades ago as the theorist of ‘Asian values’. How sad it is that he didn’t have time in this brief interview to update us on where Asian values are at present. Where in the dispute between China and the Philippines, for example, can we locate Asian values? On a median line half-way between the two countries, perhaps?
Speaking no doubt before Brexit, Mahbubani can’t be blamed for praising the EU as the leading regional organisation in the world. Who was to know that Britain would leave? Probably only observers or analysts who paid some attention to British public opinion. But, watching Mahbubani in this interview, one doesn’t have the impression that he is very interested in public opinion.
Since Mahbubani was no doubt once described by Time Magazine as one of the most influential of global thinkers, we should perhaps try a different tack. Let us assume that he knew Britain would leave but somehow thought that losing the member country possessing the second largest economy would nevertheless not undermine the EU’s top dog status. But, if this more charitable explanation is correct, it clashes with his praise of ASEAN’s bringing economic prosperity to Southeast Asia.
It is one of the idiosyncracies of Singapore’s polity and civil service that it is citizens of South Asian origin who tend to be the most provocative. They also tend to lay down the law about how Australia should behave towards Asia, and how Australians should behave towards Asians. This is why it is inappropriate to treat them with undue deference.
Bilahari Kausikan, a former permanent secretary of the Foreign Ministry, is even more outspoken than Mahbubani, though I don’t know what his ‘take’ on Asian values happens to be. Maybe Asian values didn’t make it into the new century.
Readers of this website who are familiar with Bilahari’s public utterances should know that they can’t compare with what he says in private.
The King is (nearly) dead: long live the King?
[…] taking different views on the role of the monarchy under the military dictatorship. The first is by “Llewellyn McCann” at New Mandala and the second is from Ji Ungpakorn at […]
The King is (nearly) dead: long live the King?
That’s an outrageous, disgraceful statement of trial by journalism, Andrew. You should be utterly ashamed of yourself.
Colonial Burma, history and phillumeny
That’s more like it. At least you now have latest posts and new comments though a tad economical. Thanks.
The King is (nearly) dead: long live the King?
This is not a courtroom, Chris. There is no conceivable prospect of Bhumibol Adulyadej going to jail over his killing of Ananda Mahidol. So the judicial presumption of innocence is irrelevant here.
You are entitled to your interpretation of the facts, however eccentric it may be, and sensible observers are entitled to disagree with you and state clearly that it is overwhelmingly likely that Bhumibol shot his brother.
The King is (nearly) dead: long live the King?
Dear Andrew MacGregor Marshall, you have missed my point. Or rather points :
a) that Bumiphol is entitled to a presumption of innocence. At least under British/ American law (and let’s not forget : Bumiphol is American-born). Continental European law is neutral, I.e. no presumption, of neither innocence nor guilt.
b) Ananda’s MURDER COULD ONLY HAVE BEEN DELIBERATE REGICIDE, because of the two INCONTROVERTIBLE FACTS you cite in that link you provide – I.e. a Colt .45 is a heavy instrument when loaded with bullets, and the safety catch has to be pressed down, with considerable force.
c) Bumiphol HIMSELF has denied it was an “accident”. This he clearly does in that BBC interview – Soul Of A Nation – which you cite.
IF Bumiphol fired the fatal shot – which I doubt – then I think he was victim of a set-up. I.e the gun was loaded with ONLY ONE BULLET ( so did
not weigh noticeably more than when empty) AND THE SAFETY CATCH HAD BEEN DISABLED. But I believe Bumiphol’s story that when he entered the room, he found his brother already dead. Presumption of innocence.
The ASEAN experiment
Right you are Robert — pardon my typo. That’s been corrected. All the best, James
The ASEAN experiment
ASEAN was founded by only five countries in Bangkok in 1967. It turns fifty in 2017, not sixty. Four of its ten members joined only two decades ago, after the Cold War. For most of its existence it operated without legal personality.
Also, Kishore Mahbubani is promoting: “clearly the second most successful regional body behind the EU.” Really? Many observers would make the case the African Union has been more successful of late than ASEAN, especially in terms of acting collectively on human rights and regional peacekeeping. Although the AU still lacks, its current direction is more admirable than ASEAN’s. ASEAN integration has been economic oriented in the service of business and growth, not political life or human security. Any regional defense of human rights, democratic institutions, and civil liberties remains anemic. The “ASEAN Way” values non-interference of its governments far more than the civil and political liberties of everyday Southeast Asians.
ASEAN has much to learn from the AU in terms of articulating the case for basic democratic norms and seeing the region from the perspective of its people, not just diplomatic and business elites. ASEAN has been defined by its inaction not its action. Its “success” is debatable. The geopolitical risks Mahbubani mentions only incentivize SE Asian governments to maintain non-interference in the world’s second most undemocratic region.
Colonial Burma, history and phillumeny
Thank you, James. I have to say I prefer the previous design where you had links to other posts and recent comments on the same page. On top of that I can barely see what I’m writing on my Kindle with the masthead in the way, and keep accidentally tapping menu etc.!
The King is (nearly) dead: long live the King?
Author is right on target and has accurately pointed out with clarity, the tenuous situation in present day Thailand and given a behind the scenes look at the maneuvers and juggling act Prayuth and his cronies are playing. I do fear that the outcome of the referendum will be rigged to get the result they badly want, which will keep them in power, albeit behind the scenes, as a puppet master, who pulls the strings behind the curtain.
I have no doubt, with the decades of the majority of hard working Thais being suppressed and economically falling behind, once this King passes, there will be a lengthy period of mourning, then something will trigger an uprising and the dynamite keg will erupt, and the millions of Thais will protest and say “NO MORE.”
Colonial Burma, history and phillumeny
Hi Moe Aung
In the move to the new website, some of the comments disappeared. We are currently working with our web developers to restore them. Thanks for you patience.
All the best to all,
James
Colonial Burma, history and phillumeny
Whatever happened to comments already posted?
Is Cambodia becoming the sick man of Southeast Asia?
This is a very jaundiced and hostile perspective of Cambodia which is regarded by Asian Developmenr Bank as an emerging Asean tiger economy.