I don’t recall royal sponsorship for the dead of Tak Bai, and I do recall royal sponsorship for the funeral of the PAD guard who blew himself up in the jeep on Oct. 7, so I believe the answer is a clear ‘No.’
Chris Beale said:
Given all this evidence about the different types of gas cannisters, and the lack of police professionalism, “excessive force”, etc., has n’t perhaps too much been read into Her Majesty The Queen’s allleged bias towards the PADS, with her hospital visits and donations ?
the Wikepedia summary is interesting in its mention of “technically part of the Royal Thai Police, the BPP has always enjoyed a great deal of autonomy” and “The royal family was a principal patron of the organization. This traditional relationship benefited both the palace and its paramilitary protectors. Many BPP commanders were former army officers.[1]”
the Wikipaedia mysteriously also has a link at the end of its article to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Thai_Armed_Forces
who ALSO claim the BPP
I would be interested in what the Armed Forces site has to say in Thai about the BPP
my current theory is that, like the PAD, the BPP is still linked to and is a useful arm of the palace and therefore is treated very carefully, with ambiguity, by the official organisations and through the privy council has legal immunities
the note about most commanders being former army could be code for suggesting the BPP are really an arm of Prem and his mates?
the old tear gas did some dirty work desired by Prem and the PAD leadership? not just on the day but with continuing benefits for them
all similar to and inspired by the US CIA covert operations units used to terrorise the South Americans, in Iran, etc, etc …
Chris: In a sensible argument, you can’t really have it both ways. The army can’t be professional and engage in unprofessional behaviour like running coups (in most definitions, “professionalism” in the military means being non-political and under civilian control). In fact, at Kru Sae, the military acted against government orders. That’s unprofessional. No twisting of words, just pointing out the obvious.
On Newin’s supposed forces, give me some evidence. I have searched for anything other than a statement of this “fact” by coup leaders or PAD and have found none.
The junta is a dab hand at the time-honoured divide-and-rule tactics which it employs both within and between groups. Whilst unity must be forged between the Burman majority and the nationalities in this struggle, not least to underpin a genuine national reconciliation process, the chances of the minorities alone, either individually or in a united front, overthrowing the dictatorship are very slim. Only the Karen ever came close at the outbreak of the rebellion in 1949. The problem is compounded by the fact that almost all our minority groups have smaller minority groups within themselves. The Buddhist Karen that the DKBA claims to represent are not even a demographic minority, only in the Christian dominated KNU.
An all-inclusive unity in practice has to mean reaching a critical mass which the Burmans can achieve on their own in Rangoon and other towns and cities. Only this time political work must be done on the army rank and file to win them over to the side of the people for the popular struggle to grow some real teeth. We must not let the people come out in mass protests and sacrifice themselves in vain over and over again.
It is all the more important for the nationalities to realize this is a common fight against a common enemy for the junta is the very embodiment of Burman chauvinism welded to militarism, and they cannot afford to simply look on in bemused interest as in 1988. If we fail to learn our lessons from six decades of civil war and nearly a half century of military dictatorship, perhaps we do not deserve to win.
I don’t know what your “here” like is there but I got taken to a soothing picture of a leafy green fern called “http//58.97.5.29/ict.html”. Presumably that’s its Latin name.
David Bronw writes: and, I understand the BPP are a unit of the military rather than under police command
No. They are a unit of the Police Dapartment. See this breakdown of the Police Department structure (this is the Thai language website, its English function doesn’t seem to be working. The BPP Bureau is on top of the list.) http://www.royalthaipolice.go.th/bureau.php
(Perhaps, I should point out for the benefit of anyone interested in history. The BPP, while originated in the 1950s as part of Phao Sriyanon’s armed power base in his struggle with the army chief Sarit Thanarat, had evolved into an organization very close to the Palace. In fact, in factional struggles among the elite in the 1970s, they were, analytically speaking, a key part in the Palace’s power base (though of course still formally under the command of the government’s Police Department) The BPP at the time were the organizer of the King-sponsored Village Scouts.
With the lessening of the ideological war with the Communists, the BPP, as I understand it, like much of the police force, had evolved into a more ‘professional’, i.e, non-factional, force. It has remained so for quite sometimes. In short, the role of the BPP in the 7 October events last year cannot be read in factional terms (army vs police). The reason behind the use of BPP was that it still is the most lethal, most ‘military-like’ unit of the entire police force, as in the days of Phao.
Ralph – yes, I respect them for the 2006 coup. Their professionalism especially – no-one was killed. The coup was necessary as a pre-emptive counter-coup against Thaksin’s own coup, which would have happened very shortly if the royalist troops had not moved. Remember Newin’s thousand rifles ready to slaughter in the center of Bangkok ?
Krue Sae and Tak Bai happened under Thaksin. Nothing I’ve written shows any support for those massacres, so stop your immature twisting of my words.
I don’t support what has happened since the 2006 coup : there now needs to be a reconciliation with Thaksin and the Red-Shirts, to avoid civil war. But I do praise General Anupong for avoiding
another coup – which will almost inevitably be very bloody, and possible a trigger to all-out civil war. Anupong has shown remarkable restraint under extremely difficult circumstances.
interesting it was the Border Patrol Police, which are said to be already infamous over many years for their behaviour toward refugees and prisoners torture, are the only ones that used the out of date Chinese tear gas, and as you say were probably untrained for this mission
and, I understand the BPP are a unit of the military rather than under police command
so, if I am correct it is the military rather than the police that should be carrying most (all?) of the blame and penalties for the injuries and the death due to tear gas (the other death was of course self-inflicted by the PAD themselves)?
Chris: When you say: “But since May ‘92 they have become a lot more professional, in a US sense, and have performed honourably in peace-keeping roles such as East Timor, and other hot-spots. For this I greatly respect them. And especially respect their sacrifices under the appalling conditions they are fighting with in Thailand’s deep South,” perhaps you leave out the respect you must have for these professionals in running the 2006 coup and for their professionalism at Kru Sae and Tak Bai where they left more than a few dead.
Suzie Wong – I disagree with you again, on two points.
1) Nobody denies Bumiphol has re-surrected the monarchy as a very strong force. But this has been nothing like the totalitarian take-over you, and some other posters here, seem to think.
Thai society has become to complex for that.
Instead Bumiphol has brought Dhammaraja Democracy : a Thai version of democracy, the long tradition of which goes back to Ramakhaeng, and the practice of appealing to the king for the popular voice to be heard against corrupt, over-powerful, etc. officials.
I agree this does not sit easily with Western ideas of demoracy – but remember : even that Plato, son of the great Greek birth-place of democracy Athens, thought rule by a Philosopher-King was the best form of government, with democracy ranked second.
Bumiphol has turned the monarchy into a much-needed, very powerful referee among squabbling, nation-threatening, corrupt politicans and military.
2) The Crown Prince – in the absence of a vote, how can anyone say he is not “popular”? Among Thais I’ve lived with, he seemed very popular. Does it ever occur to all the anti-Crown prince posters here that maybe his enemies spread a lot of rumours ?
Finally Suzie – I think the only thing we can agree on is Thailand’s ridiculous, self-defeating LM laws. It would be easier, and more effective to defeat rumour-mongering by having more opening reporting, where hard facts are the currency.
So far no farang charged with LM has died in a Thai jail.
But let’s intelligently guess – from available evidence – what would
happen, if one did.
This is not at all fanciful. Nicolaides increasingly voiced concerns
about dying, or being killed, the longer he spent jailed.
Think back to the reaction in Australia when Chambers and Barlow were hung. And they were drug dealers, arguably deserving to die, according to much Australian opinion. Yet there was mounting anti-Asian violence in Australia in the wake of their hanging, spurred on by extreme right-wing groups.
Imagine what would happen if an Australian died for what in Australia would simply be considered the right of free speach, but in Thailand is LM.
The violence would likely be far more focused against the Thai elite overseas, than sporadic fire-bombing, etc. of small Asian restaurants. The economic damage could be collosall.
Or imagine if it was a a Brit. What a spur to the British National Party that would be. Or imagine if it was an American……..
Suzie Wong – you’re certainly wrong speaking about the US military, or many others , as some sort of monolith which can be taken over by extreme right-wingers. Even when Hitler did this in Germany, there was opposition to him from within the Wehrmacht.
Today’s Thailand is certainly not Hitler’s Germany, and the Thai military has a long, long history of factionalism, almost in-built into the Chulalomklao Military Academy class system.
For decades they’ve also been far better at suppressing their own population, than defending Thailand. But since May ’92 they have become a lot more professional, in a US sense, and have performed honourably in peace-keeping roles such as East Timor, and other hot-spots. For this I greatly respect them. And especially respect their sacrifices under the appalling conditions they are fighting with in Thailand’s deep South.
Given all this evidence about the different types of gas cannisters, and the lack of police professionalism, “excessive force”, etc., has n’t perhaps too much been read into Her Majesty The Queen’s allleged bias towards the PADS, with her hospital visits and donations ?
Remember “excessive force” was the grounds for the Royally-appointed Anand government sidelinning 440 officers into inactive posts, after May 92’s bloodshed.
“a simple-minded looter, destroying what it can neither create nor understand.”
A very apt description of the junta, since all the brain power seems concentrated on staying in power and enriching themselves at the expense of an entire nation.
A well-targeted and nuanced approach in both engagement and sanctions is called for if leverage is to be effective, and I agree with Bamar that the right moment is now when both instruments are to hand. What kind of mileage this will have in dealing with the utterly inflexible junta however remains to be seen. It will go through the motions alright as usual, but anything substantial? At least the US will try and likely more successful than the UN.
A recent comment by a Chinese official is apt when he said the Sino-Burmese relationship has been Machiavellian, driven by (surprise, surprise) self-interest.
Sounds pretty much like the usual incompetence and negligence of Thai state authorities. Only that this is mostly hidden, while one can neither hide the act nor its consequences when using tear gas in public.
I never came across the term “fusion food” before I came to Thailand and not one dish have I seen here that appeals to me so in a Thai context I agree with you.
I was trying to say that there is no harm in restauranteurs in other countries serving “adapted” Thai dishes. There is also no shame in farang palates not swooning over “authentic” Thai food.
You say that the quality in western Thai restaurants is a disgrace. How do you define disgrace?
However worthy the appreciation of the development of authentic Thai food is, in my opinion the whole thing is over hyped and packaged as part of the fairy tale that is modern Thailand.
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Tear-gas grenades in Bangkok on 7 October 2008
I don’t recall royal sponsorship for the dead of Tak Bai, and I do recall royal sponsorship for the funeral of the PAD guard who blew himself up in the jeep on Oct. 7, so I believe the answer is a clear ‘No.’
Chris Beale said:
Given all this evidence about the different types of gas cannisters, and the lack of police professionalism, “excessive force”, etc., has n’t perhaps too much been read into Her Majesty The Queen’s allleged bias towards the PADS, with her hospital visits and donations ?
Tear-gas grenades in Bangkok on 7 October 2008
another historical perspective on the BPP apparently extracted from the US Library of Congress and the CIA Factbook is at:
http://www.photius.com/countries/thailand/national_security/thailand_national_security_border_patrol_police.html
this very squarely confirms Military and Palace linkages, at least in the 1980s
Tear-gas grenades in Bangkok on 7 October 2008
thanks Somsak….
the Police claim the BPP as you say and there is a murky, violent (sadistic?) history, see the Wikepedia entry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Patrol_Police
but it seems the story is not so clear
the Wikepedia summary is interesting in its mention of “technically part of the Royal Thai Police, the BPP has always enjoyed a great deal of autonomy” and “The royal family was a principal patron of the organization. This traditional relationship benefited both the palace and its paramilitary protectors. Many BPP commanders were former army officers.[1]”
the Wikipaedia mysteriously also has a link at the end of its article to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Thai_Armed_Forces
who ALSO claim the BPP
I would be interested in what the Armed Forces site has to say in Thai about the BPP
my current theory is that, like the PAD, the BPP is still linked to and is a useful arm of the palace and therefore is treated very carefully, with ambiguity, by the official organisations and through the privy council has legal immunities
the note about most commanders being former army could be code for suggesting the BPP are really an arm of Prem and his mates?
the old tear gas did some dirty work desired by Prem and the PAD leadership? not just on the day but with continuing benefits for them
all similar to and inspired by the US CIA covert operations units used to terrorise the South Americans, in Iran, etc, etc …
Jakrapob on the state within the state
Chris: In a sensible argument, you can’t really have it both ways. The army can’t be professional and engage in unprofessional behaviour like running coups (in most definitions, “professionalism” in the military means being non-political and under civilian control). In fact, at Kru Sae, the military acted against government orders. That’s unprofessional. No twisting of words, just pointing out the obvious.
On Newin’s supposed forces, give me some evidence. I have searched for anything other than a statement of this “fact” by coup leaders or PAD and have found none.
Jakrapob on the state within the state
There is some claim that Anupong may have arranged the Sondhi assassination attempt….restraint?
In the same breath: Burma, China…Thailand
kim johnson,
The junta is a dab hand at the time-honoured divide-and-rule tactics which it employs both within and between groups. Whilst unity must be forged between the Burman majority and the nationalities in this struggle, not least to underpin a genuine national reconciliation process, the chances of the minorities alone, either individually or in a united front, overthrowing the dictatorship are very slim. Only the Karen ever came close at the outbreak of the rebellion in 1949. The problem is compounded by the fact that almost all our minority groups have smaller minority groups within themselves. The Buddhist Karen that the DKBA claims to represent are not even a demographic minority, only in the Christian dominated KNU.
An all-inclusive unity in practice has to mean reaching a critical mass which the Burmans can achieve on their own in Rangoon and other towns and cities. Only this time political work must be done on the army rank and file to win them over to the side of the people for the popular struggle to grow some real teeth. We must not let the people come out in mass protests and sacrifice themselves in vain over and over again.
It is all the more important for the nationalities to realize this is a common fight against a common enemy for the junta is the very embodiment of Burman chauvinism welded to militarism, and they cannot afford to simply look on in bemused interest as in 1988. If we fail to learn our lessons from six decades of civil war and nearly a half century of military dictatorship, perhaps we do not deserve to win.
The Independent on Thailand’s taboo
I don’t know what your “here” like is there but I got taken to a soothing picture of a leafy green fern called “http//58.97.5.29/ict.html”. Presumably that’s its Latin name.
Anything to do with that ministry, I wonder?
Tear-gas grenades in Bangkok on 7 October 2008
David Bronw writes:
and, I understand the BPP are a unit of the military rather than under police command
No. They are a unit of the Police Dapartment. See this breakdown of the Police Department structure (this is the Thai language website, its English function doesn’t seem to be working. The BPP Bureau is on top of the list.)
http://www.royalthaipolice.go.th/bureau.php
(Perhaps, I should point out for the benefit of anyone interested in history. The BPP, while originated in the 1950s as part of Phao Sriyanon’s armed power base in his struggle with the army chief Sarit Thanarat, had evolved into an organization very close to the Palace. In fact, in factional struggles among the elite in the 1970s, they were, analytically speaking, a key part in the Palace’s power base (though of course still formally under the command of the government’s Police Department) The BPP at the time were the organizer of the King-sponsored Village Scouts.
With the lessening of the ideological war with the Communists, the BPP, as I understand it, like much of the police force, had evolved into a more ‘professional’, i.e, non-factional, force. It has remained so for quite sometimes. In short, the role of the BPP in the 7 October events last year cannot be read in factional terms (army vs police). The reason behind the use of BPP was that it still is the most lethal, most ‘military-like’ unit of the entire police force, as in the days of Phao.
Jakrapob on the state within the state
Ralph – yes, I respect them for the 2006 coup. Their professionalism especially – no-one was killed. The coup was necessary as a pre-emptive counter-coup against Thaksin’s own coup, which would have happened very shortly if the royalist troops had not moved. Remember Newin’s thousand rifles ready to slaughter in the center of Bangkok ?
Krue Sae and Tak Bai happened under Thaksin. Nothing I’ve written shows any support for those massacres, so stop your immature twisting of my words.
I don’t support what has happened since the 2006 coup : there now needs to be a reconciliation with Thaksin and the Red-Shirts, to avoid civil war. But I do praise General Anupong for avoiding
another coup – which will almost inevitably be very bloody, and possible a trigger to all-out civil war. Anupong has shown remarkable restraint under extremely difficult circumstances.
Tear-gas grenades in Bangkok on 7 October 2008
interesting it was the Border Patrol Police, which are said to be already infamous over many years for their behaviour toward refugees and prisoners torture, are the only ones that used the out of date Chinese tear gas, and as you say were probably untrained for this mission
and, I understand the BPP are a unit of the military rather than under police command
so, if I am correct it is the military rather than the police that should be carrying most (all?) of the blame and penalties for the injuries and the death due to tear gas (the other death was of course self-inflicted by the PAD themselves)?
Jakrapob on the state within the state
Chris: When you say: “But since May ‘92 they have become a lot more professional, in a US sense, and have performed honourably in peace-keeping roles such as East Timor, and other hot-spots. For this I greatly respect them. And especially respect their sacrifices under the appalling conditions they are fighting with in Thailand’s deep South,” perhaps you leave out the respect you must have for these professionals in running the 2006 coup and for their professionalism at Kru Sae and Tak Bai where they left more than a few dead.
Tear-gas grenades in Bangkok on 7 October 2008
If important days are to be considered, what happened to NM’s post on October 6?
Tear-gas grenades in Bangkok on 7 October 2008
I don’t recall anyone being charged for firing bullets at students in ’72 and ’76, so one could say that standards are improving.
Only they aren’t. Police are only charged with brutality when someone (or something) more powerful than the police gets hurt.
Raise your hand if you think this is a milestone in true, lasting Thai police accountability.
Yeah.
Risk, commentary, politics, succession
Suzie Wong – I disagree with you again, on two points.
1) Nobody denies Bumiphol has re-surrected the monarchy as a very strong force. But this has been nothing like the totalitarian take-over you, and some other posters here, seem to think.
Thai society has become to complex for that.
Instead Bumiphol has brought Dhammaraja Democracy : a Thai version of democracy, the long tradition of which goes back to Ramakhaeng, and the practice of appealing to the king for the popular voice to be heard against corrupt, over-powerful, etc. officials.
I agree this does not sit easily with Western ideas of demoracy – but remember : even that Plato, son of the great Greek birth-place of democracy Athens, thought rule by a Philosopher-King was the best form of government, with democracy ranked second.
Bumiphol has turned the monarchy into a much-needed, very powerful referee among squabbling, nation-threatening, corrupt politicans and military.
2) The Crown Prince – in the absence of a vote, how can anyone say he is not “popular”? Among Thais I’ve lived with, he seemed very popular. Does it ever occur to all the anti-Crown prince posters here that maybe his enemies spread a lot of rumours ?
Finally Suzie – I think the only thing we can agree on is Thailand’s ridiculous, self-defeating LM laws. It would be easier, and more effective to defeat rumour-mongering by having more opening reporting, where hard facts are the currency.
Thailand and lese majeste
So far no farang charged with LM has died in a Thai jail.
But let’s intelligently guess – from available evidence – what would
happen, if one did.
This is not at all fanciful. Nicolaides increasingly voiced concerns
about dying, or being killed, the longer he spent jailed.
Think back to the reaction in Australia when Chambers and Barlow were hung. And they were drug dealers, arguably deserving to die, according to much Australian opinion. Yet there was mounting anti-Asian violence in Australia in the wake of their hanging, spurred on by extreme right-wing groups.
Imagine what would happen if an Australian died for what in Australia would simply be considered the right of free speach, but in Thailand is LM.
The violence would likely be far more focused against the Thai elite overseas, than sporadic fire-bombing, etc. of small Asian restaurants. The economic damage could be collosall.
Or imagine if it was a a Brit. What a spur to the British National Party that would be. Or imagine if it was an American……..
Jakrapob on the state within the state
Suzie Wong – you’re certainly wrong speaking about the US military, or many others , as some sort of monolith which can be taken over by extreme right-wingers. Even when Hitler did this in Germany, there was opposition to him from within the Wehrmacht.
Today’s Thailand is certainly not Hitler’s Germany, and the Thai military has a long, long history of factionalism, almost in-built into the Chulalomklao Military Academy class system.
For decades they’ve also been far better at suppressing their own population, than defending Thailand. But since May ’92 they have become a lot more professional, in a US sense, and have performed honourably in peace-keeping roles such as East Timor, and other hot-spots. For this I greatly respect them. And especially respect their sacrifices under the appalling conditions they are fighting with in Thailand’s deep South.
Tear-gas grenades in Bangkok on 7 October 2008
Given all this evidence about the different types of gas cannisters, and the lack of police professionalism, “excessive force”, etc., has n’t perhaps too much been read into Her Majesty The Queen’s allleged bias towards the PADS, with her hospital visits and donations ?
Remember “excessive force” was the grounds for the Royally-appointed Anand government sidelinning 440 officers into inactive posts, after May 92’s bloodshed.
Vicary and Turnell on Burma sanctions
“a simple-minded looter, destroying what it can neither create nor understand.”
A very apt description of the junta, since all the brain power seems concentrated on staying in power and enriching themselves at the expense of an entire nation.
A well-targeted and nuanced approach in both engagement and sanctions is called for if leverage is to be effective, and I agree with Bamar that the right moment is now when both instruments are to hand. What kind of mileage this will have in dealing with the utterly inflexible junta however remains to be seen. It will go through the motions alright as usual, but anything substantial? At least the US will try and likely more successful than the UN.
A recent comment by a Chinese official is apt when he said the Sino-Burmese relationship has been Machiavellian, driven by (surprise, surprise) self-interest.
Tear-gas grenades in Bangkok on 7 October 2008
Sounds pretty much like the usual incompetence and negligence of Thai state authorities. Only that this is mostly hidden, while one can neither hide the act nor its consequences when using tear gas in public.
Thai food better in Sydney
Nick:
I never came across the term “fusion food” before I came to Thailand and not one dish have I seen here that appeals to me so in a Thai context I agree with you.
I was trying to say that there is no harm in restauranteurs in other countries serving “adapted” Thai dishes. There is also no shame in farang palates not swooning over “authentic” Thai food.
You say that the quality in western Thai restaurants is a disgrace. How do you define disgrace?
However worthy the appreciation of the development of authentic Thai food is, in my opinion the whole thing is over hyped and packaged as part of the fairy tale that is modern Thailand.
All the best