In Burma the options for any sort of broadly based immediate communication are so few that social networking sites can indeed take on an importance they would not have elsewhere. This is so in spite of the fact that access to the net is mostly confined to Rangoon and Mandalay and a few towns on the Thai and Chinese borders. It means that at least some opposition activists and organizers inside and outside Burma have an opportunity to gather information and talk to each other in a reasonably secure forum. If just a few politically networked people have access to the net they can can spread information and samizdat material to many more. The fact that mobile phones are expensive and heavily controlled, meeting is dangerous and printed matter cannot easily be distributed, leaves the net as the only agency through which this can be done. And as Cho and Gilbert observe, the internet sites also allow Burmese, and especially young people, to express themselves free of both censorship from their government and filtering by the international charity NGOs that find it convenient to operate openly in the country.
First, yes, the acts of Abhisit I is heinous. While the drug war too was a heinous crime no doubt, a democratic government has a PREROGATIVE to protect a citizens right to free speech. It is one thing to not be in full control of the government and the police force (read about the BBC raid as a good example and the charges against Prachatai which Abhisit had obviously no idea what is going on), and another all together to ‘approve’ media contents prior to being aired. Also, when forming a ‘citizen network’ to protect national institutions by telling on other citizens, you create a facist state. While the ‘intention’ may be good, the “act” in itself is heinous as we can pretty much guess what the results would be.
While Thaksin did a lot of unquestionable undemocratic acts, we must then ask the question why the military government before, and the Abhisit government now cannot charge him for the bulk of his former crimes. Is it because they too do the same practices? Instead of the wealth being accumulated at the behest of 1 family and his party, instead it is ‘spread’ across the entire coalition, and then to other military figures. To not create a ‘precedent’ in court, it seems better to criminalize Thaksin through smaller charges.
Third, your continued defence of the LM law by stating “LM does NOT protect a person, it protects sacred persuasions of the vast majority of royalist buddhists.” is highly misguided.
The current LM law does not protect any institutions or royalist-buddhists. In essence, it protects a very elite group of people, mostly with access to guns and power, using the Royal image to their own ends.
so I re-ask what Nga asked, “How do you reconcile HMK’s 2005 speech with the LM law and how it is implemented?” considering HMK has made his opinion known that he is troubled by such laws.
Also, I do mind that you think HMK doesn’t know of cases in the LM law. Currently, even if HMK wanted to help someone, he cannot as the law is arcane and he cannot protect those that are being harmed. Specifically in the case of Suwicha, as the prosecutor made an appeal to the guilty verdict, Suwicha cannot begin to make a pardon request. Something else that you haven’t been able to explain.
Ralph, asking the populace to make an insurrection not just against a sitting government, but to call for a violent overhaul of the entire socio-political-economic stratosphere is a treasounous act akin to terrorists going “Death to America/Death to Israel”. There is an article wherein Jakrapob directly states that the movement will turn into an armed struggle.
Aung San Suu Kyi’s father collaborated with Japan in bringing independence of Burma from the British colonial power. Aung San Suu Kyi herself studied at Kyoto University. I think we need to understand those links to her problem. Looking at the problem of democracy issue alone will make us miss the main point of Burma’s national security concern. I hope to see experts in Burma’s affair come up with the work that could combine all three levels of analysis: international, state, and individual, because the geo-strategic of Burma to the Indian Ocean is extremely important with what is going on in South Asia at the moment.
Improved understanding of Burma’s political crisis depends in part on Great Powers’ more probing analysis of the post 9/11 strategic landscape. I don’t think it is wise to impose economic sanctions when one doesn’t even understand the current strategic issue of the Asia Pacific. Just like any other countries, Burma cannot afford to risk her national security. The situation in Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Afghanistan, Pakistan demands Great Powers to make a correct move. Democratization cannot come at the expense of national security.
Uncritical respect has bred nothing but inertia. Thailand has being going nowhere for years. There are now countries with lower labor costs. It has long been convenient to keep the electorate stupid. But when you then need critical thinking abilities, where are you then going to find them? People like Thaksin, Sonthi and Chumlong are still doing their utmost to keep the electorate stupid.
“I suppose the government know what they’re doing…(i.e. setting up a situation that could well end up in civil war, the Mother of All Coups, and an authoritarian regime to rival Burma. That IS what this is all about, isn’t it?”
That may well be the result, but I am not convinced it is the intention. Certainly not of the government, anyway.
I personally think both sides are in seige mentality, and are unable to think clearly because each sides actions are dominated by the thoughts that the other side is out to get them – sort of an internal xenophobia within different groups of the same nationality.
Sidh S: And let the chips fall where they may, vis-a-vis the drug war?
I’d like to see that. I’m sure many people would. Thaksin’s critics talk a big game about the drug war but instead pursue rather marginal and subjective economic crime cases against him.
Political Prisoners in Thailand’s website makes clear why, in an item relating to this same Bangkok Post article.
It includes a very interesting link to something by Ajarn Somsak — not news to people who actually follow events and care about the truth, but a very good reminder: http://prachachon.thaingo.org/webboard/view.php?id=1531
Susie Wong: I have high respect of р╕Ър╕гр╕┤р╕йр╕▒р╕Ч р╣Ар╕Др╕ер╣Зр╕Фр╣Др╕Чр╕в and Benedict Anderson, I simply would like the translation to be understandable.
First of all, as I said, I actually agree with you (perhaps for different reason?) that the present Thai title isn’t good or necessary, and р╕Кр╕╕р╕бр╕Кр╕Щр╕Ир╕┤р╕Щр╕Хр╕Щр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕г would do just fine.
FYI, Kled Thai had nothing to do with this Thai version (apart from technical aspect of distributions). The whole thing is done by Dr.Charnvit Kasetsiri and his team, in close consultation with Ben Anderson himself (Charnvit and Ben are very good friends as is well known).
If I use the discussions on sufficiency economy in New Mandala as reference for my class (at great difficulty for my Thai students) as an alternative development model of Thailand, will I be charged with lese majeste? Some of the comments are not “respectful” of the royal institution.
Nga #38, this is a trained ‘spy-force’ of vigilantes, citizens spying on their fellow citizens, it’s nothing like the ‘Dob-in lines’ you mention. With Thailand’s history of the brutal Village Scouts and Red Gaurs, who were at least visible, how will it be, having up to 50,000 (the Minister’s estimate) self-important, self-righteous clandestine operatives, brain-washed by the Ministry’s training programmes, conspiring against their neighbours, workmates & family members?
Still, I suppose the government know what they’re doing…(i.e. setting up a situation that could well end up in civil war, the Mother of All Coups, and an authoritarian regime to rival Burma. That IS what this is all about, isn’t it?)
“…..Volunteers are supposed to inform the authorities on the issues of lèse majesté, drugs, money laundering, chit funds, financial scams, national security, environmental and natural resource destruction, tax evasion, corruption, violations of the rights and freedoms of the people, and other illegal acts.”
Sounds good in theory, but could be quite dangerous in practice in Thailand. I think I would prefer an anonymous phone in line for personal safety reasons, because you never know if the perpetrators of the scam have contacts in the Justice ministry and pay back may ensue.
In Australia, we have ‘Dob-in-Lines’
Dob in a tax cheat, Dob in an illegal immigrant, Dob in welfare fraud etc
For some reason I dont think the membership card/badge system would work here:)
I always wondered what percentage of the dob ins are genuine, and what percentage are just trouble making complaints by disgruntled employee, ex lover etc, but obviouisly the authorities regard it all as ‘intelligence’ and have developed techniques to sift through the bullshit.
Stephan: I very much doubt that the only opposition to LM laws stems from ‘republicans or communists’, and it is wishful thinking on your part when you say ‘ neither of them represented here’
How do you reconcile HMK’s 2005 speech with the LM law and how it is implemented?
on the LM matter:
we can see only a few posters here vigorously objecting to this law.
does it really never cross your mind,
that you are a tiny alienated minority, mostly even farangs.
the overwhelming majority of thai people seems to have no problem with it.
a change would be rather unpopular here.
as we often said: LM does NOT protect a person,
it protects sacred persuasions of the vast majority of royalist buddhists.
the opposition in thailand for LM are either
communists or republicians, neither of them represented here.
I am trying to understand the point that you attempt to make in your post. It seems the certain injustice in Laos is rather blurred and expanded through time (past and present). So, I don’t understand whether you want us to be aware or concerned about the Hmong or the female ‘British citizen’ drug convict. These are two seperate issues that you can’t blurred them into one ‘human rights’ story of the present time. This is because at one point of our history heroin was ‘legal.’ At the same time, the Hmong were once lived in their own territory. Now that, the nation-state exists in people’s minds and reality as well as legal structures (e.g, illegalize heroin and other drugs). What was ‘right’ then could be ‘wrong’ now and depending where the ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ is being judged and said.
I wish we all could live in peace under one set of rules and laws but the world has proved the other way with many sets of rules and laws. It is the case for many rich and powerful countries trying to dominate smaller and poorer countries, which are always less ‘developed.’ So, whose line is it by the end of the day? Your or my definition of human right should work better? The answer can involve endless debates till we do recognize the origins and roots of ‘rights.’ Whose term is it? Or who first introduced it to the rest of the world? Many people say the ‘west’ but how far ‘west’ and who are the ‘westerners’ with great influences to make us agree on the same ‘right’? What makes right ‘right’?
The injustice happens now in Laos, particularly the ‘no trial’ is more understandable than rest. I wish I could understand and see more points in your post.
From Prachathai (not the complete article):
“On May 17, Justice Minister Pirapan Salirathavibhaga launched his ‘Volunteers to Protect Justice’ initiative to organize and train people to inform the authorities on corruption and lèse majesté cases. Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva presided over the event and was registered as the first volunteer.
Abhisit told an audience of about 2,000 at the Thai Army Club on Vibhavadi Rangsit Road that it was government policy to protect and worship the monarchy, prevent and suppress corruption, and encourage the people to check state authority. And he had always championed the rule of law to reign in this country.
He said the initiative provided a good opportunity for people to be active in upholding justice and the nation’s essential institution, and it should expand to the provinces as well.
After the PM led volunteers in taking a vow of loyalty to the monarchy, the Justice Minister gave him a membership card, as member number 1.”
“…..Volunteers are supposed to inform the authorities on the issues of lèse majesté, drugs, money laundering, chit funds, financial scams, national security, environmental and natural resource destruction, tax evasion, corruption, violations of the rights and freedoms of the people, and other illegal acts.
Volunteers must be 15 years old or older, have a clean record, and importantly have a volunteer spirit to participate in activities to be held by the ministry, including training on the law and rights in the judicial process as well as meetings to share information and experience among volunteers.”…..
“….‘Volunteers work as spies [or agents] for the Justice Ministry. But the task must not be burdensome to their own work. Just live an ordinary life, and know that they can turn to the Justice Ministry when they come upon illegal acts,’ said Pirapan.
He believed that people were motivated to become ‘spies’ for the ministry because of their own grievances. The scheme starts in Bangkok, with the expectation of about 50,000 applicants, and will expand to the whole country.”
Facebook 
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“No toilet paper but unity!” Burma does social networking
In Burma the options for any sort of broadly based immediate communication are so few that social networking sites can indeed take on an importance they would not have elsewhere. This is so in spite of the fact that access to the net is mostly confined to Rangoon and Mandalay and a few towns on the Thai and Chinese borders. It means that at least some opposition activists and organizers inside and outside Burma have an opportunity to gather information and talk to each other in a reasonably secure forum. If just a few politically networked people have access to the net they can can spread information and samizdat material to many more. The fact that mobile phones are expensive and heavily controlled, meeting is dangerous and printed matter cannot easily be distributed, leaves the net as the only agency through which this can be done. And as Cho and Gilbert observe, the internet sites also allow Burmese, and especially young people, to express themselves free of both censorship from their government and filtering by the international charity NGOs that find it convenient to operate openly in the country.
Suwicha Thakor on his life in prison
Re: Stephan #31, #37, Ralph #32 and Ngadeleeng,
First, yes, the acts of Abhisit I is heinous. While the drug war too was a heinous crime no doubt, a democratic government has a PREROGATIVE to protect a citizens right to free speech. It is one thing to not be in full control of the government and the police force (read about the BBC raid as a good example and the charges against Prachatai which Abhisit had obviously no idea what is going on), and another all together to ‘approve’ media contents prior to being aired. Also, when forming a ‘citizen network’ to protect national institutions by telling on other citizens, you create a facist state. While the ‘intention’ may be good, the “act” in itself is heinous as we can pretty much guess what the results would be.
While Thaksin did a lot of unquestionable undemocratic acts, we must then ask the question why the military government before, and the Abhisit government now cannot charge him for the bulk of his former crimes. Is it because they too do the same practices? Instead of the wealth being accumulated at the behest of 1 family and his party, instead it is ‘spread’ across the entire coalition, and then to other military figures. To not create a ‘precedent’ in court, it seems better to criminalize Thaksin through smaller charges.
Third, your continued defence of the LM law by stating “LM does NOT protect a person, it protects sacred persuasions of the vast majority of royalist buddhists.” is highly misguided.
The current LM law does not protect any institutions or royalist-buddhists. In essence, it protects a very elite group of people, mostly with access to guns and power, using the Royal image to their own ends.
so I re-ask what Nga asked, “How do you reconcile HMK’s 2005 speech with the LM law and how it is implemented?” considering HMK has made his opinion known that he is troubled by such laws.
Also, I do mind that you think HMK doesn’t know of cases in the LM law. Currently, even if HMK wanted to help someone, he cannot as the law is arcane and he cannot protect those that are being harmed. Specifically in the case of Suwicha, as the prosecutor made an appeal to the guilty verdict, Suwicha cannot begin to make a pardon request. Something else that you haven’t been able to explain.
Ralph, asking the populace to make an insurrection not just against a sitting government, but to call for a violent overhaul of the entire socio-political-economic stratosphere is a treasounous act akin to terrorists going “Death to America/Death to Israel”. There is an article wherein Jakrapob directly states that the movement will turn into an armed struggle.
Andrew Selth on conspiracies and cock-ups
Aung San Suu Kyi’s father collaborated with Japan in bringing independence of Burma from the British colonial power. Aung San Suu Kyi herself studied at Kyoto University. I think we need to understand those links to her problem. Looking at the problem of democracy issue alone will make us miss the main point of Burma’s national security concern. I hope to see experts in Burma’s affair come up with the work that could combine all three levels of analysis: international, state, and individual, because the geo-strategic of Burma to the Indian Ocean is extremely important with what is going on in South Asia at the moment.
Improved understanding of Burma’s political crisis depends in part on Great Powers’ more probing analysis of the post 9/11 strategic landscape. I don’t think it is wise to impose economic sanctions when one doesn’t even understand the current strategic issue of the Asia Pacific. Just like any other countries, Burma cannot afford to risk her national security. The situation in Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Afghanistan, Pakistan demands Great Powers to make a correct move. Democratization cannot come at the expense of national security.
The sufficiency panacea
Uncritical respect has bred nothing but inertia. Thailand has being going nowhere for years. There are now countries with lower labor costs. It has long been convenient to keep the electorate stupid. But when you then need critical thinking abilities, where are you then going to find them? People like Thaksin, Sonthi and Chumlong are still doing their utmost to keep the electorate stupid.
Suwicha Thakor on his life in prison
“I suppose the government know what they’re doing…(i.e. setting up a situation that could well end up in civil war, the Mother of All Coups, and an authoritarian regime to rival Burma. That IS what this is all about, isn’t it?”
That may well be the result, but I am not convinced it is the intention. Certainly not of the government, anyway.
I personally think both sides are in seige mentality, and are unable to think clearly because each sides actions are dominated by the thoughts that the other side is out to get them – sort of an internal xenophobia within different groups of the same nationality.
Suthichai Yoon on the state of Thai journalism
Sidh S: And let the chips fall where they may, vis-a-vis the drug war?
I’d like to see that. I’m sure many people would. Thaksin’s critics talk a big game about the drug war but instead pursue rather marginal and subjective economic crime cases against him.
Political Prisoners in Thailand’s website makes clear why, in an item relating to this same Bangkok Post article.
It includes a very interesting link to something by Ajarn Somsak — not news to people who actually follow events and care about the truth, but a very good reminder:
http://prachachon.thaingo.org/webboard/view.php?id=1531
Imagined Communities
Susie Wong:
I have high respect of р╕Ър╕гр╕┤р╕йр╕▒р╕Ч р╣Ар╕Др╕ер╣Зр╕Фр╣Др╕Чр╕в and Benedict Anderson, I simply would like the translation to be understandable.
First of all, as I said, I actually agree with you (perhaps for different reason?) that the present Thai title isn’t good or necessary, and р╕Кр╕╕р╕бр╕Кр╕Щр╕Ир╕┤р╕Щр╕Хр╕Щр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕г would do just fine.
FYI, Kled Thai had nothing to do with this Thai version (apart from technical aspect of distributions). The whole thing is done by Dr.Charnvit Kasetsiri and his team, in close consultation with Ben Anderson himself (Charnvit and Ben are very good friends as is well known).
The sufficiency panacea
If I use the discussions on sufficiency economy in New Mandala as reference for my class (at great difficulty for my Thai students) as an alternative development model of Thailand, will I be charged with lese majeste? Some of the comments are not “respectful” of the royal institution.
Suwicha Thakor on his life in prison
Nga #38, this is a trained ‘spy-force’ of vigilantes, citizens spying on their fellow citizens, it’s nothing like the ‘Dob-in lines’ you mention. With Thailand’s history of the brutal Village Scouts and Red Gaurs, who were at least visible, how will it be, having up to 50,000 (the Minister’s estimate) self-important, self-righteous clandestine operatives, brain-washed by the Ministry’s training programmes, conspiring against their neighbours, workmates & family members?
Still, I suppose the government know what they’re doing…(i.e. setting up a situation that could well end up in civil war, the Mother of All Coups, and an authoritarian regime to rival Burma. That IS what this is all about, isn’t it?)
Imagined Communities
I have high respect of р╕Ър╕гр╕┤р╕йр╕▒р╕Ч р╣Ар╕Др╕ер╣Зр╕Фр╣Др╕Чр╕в and Benedict Anderson, I simply would like the translation to be understandable.
Genie. Bottle. Thai politics.
a story is that Busapa met Sondhi Lim when they visited Luangta Bua and a “relationship” developed from there
The sufficiency panacea
Sufficiency Economy?
Easy to say when you have banked 35 billion USD.
The sufficiency panacea
keep the people
awe struck (of the King) and
under control (by the soldiers and blue shirted Interior Ministry)
and report on your neighbours ( aka Burma and Stalin)
Thailand Land of Snarls
Suwicha Thakor on his life in prison
“…the opposition in thailand for LM are either
communists or republicians, neither of them represented here.”
I’d suggest you go and ask Sor Sivarak what he thinks of the LM law, and then ask him what he thinks of the monarchy.
Suwicha Thakor on his life in prison
“…..Volunteers are supposed to inform the authorities on the issues of lèse majesté, drugs, money laundering, chit funds, financial scams, national security, environmental and natural resource destruction, tax evasion, corruption, violations of the rights and freedoms of the people, and other illegal acts.”
Sounds good in theory, but could be quite dangerous in practice in Thailand. I think I would prefer an anonymous phone in line for personal safety reasons, because you never know if the perpetrators of the scam have contacts in the Justice ministry and pay back may ensue.
In Australia, we have ‘Dob-in-Lines’
Dob in a tax cheat, Dob in an illegal immigrant, Dob in welfare fraud etc
For some reason I dont think the membership card/badge system would work here:)
I always wondered what percentage of the dob ins are genuine, and what percentage are just trouble making complaints by disgruntled employee, ex lover etc, but obviouisly the authorities regard it all as ‘intelligence’ and have developed techniques to sift through the bullshit.
Stephan: I very much doubt that the only opposition to LM laws stems from ‘republicans or communists’, and it is wishful thinking on your part when you say ‘ neither of them represented here’
How do you reconcile HMK’s 2005 speech with the LM law and how it is implemented?
Suwicha Thakor on his life in prison
on the LM matter:
we can see only a few posters here vigorously objecting to this law.
does it really never cross your mind,
that you are a tiny alienated minority, mostly even farangs.
the overwhelming majority of thai people seems to have no problem with it.
a change would be rather unpopular here.
as we often said: LM does NOT protect a person,
it protects sacred persuasions of the vast majority of royalist buddhists.
the opposition in thailand for LM are either
communists or republicians, neither of them represented here.
Certain injustice in Laos
To Tyrell Haberkorn,
I am trying to understand the point that you attempt to make in your post. It seems the certain injustice in Laos is rather blurred and expanded through time (past and present). So, I don’t understand whether you want us to be aware or concerned about the Hmong or the female ‘British citizen’ drug convict. These are two seperate issues that you can’t blurred them into one ‘human rights’ story of the present time. This is because at one point of our history heroin was ‘legal.’ At the same time, the Hmong were once lived in their own territory. Now that, the nation-state exists in people’s minds and reality as well as legal structures (e.g, illegalize heroin and other drugs). What was ‘right’ then could be ‘wrong’ now and depending where the ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ is being judged and said.
I wish we all could live in peace under one set of rules and laws but the world has proved the other way with many sets of rules and laws. It is the case for many rich and powerful countries trying to dominate smaller and poorer countries, which are always less ‘developed.’ So, whose line is it by the end of the day? Your or my definition of human right should work better? The answer can involve endless debates till we do recognize the origins and roots of ‘rights.’ Whose term is it? Or who first introduced it to the rest of the world? Many people say the ‘west’ but how far ‘west’ and who are the ‘westerners’ with great influences to make us agree on the same ‘right’? What makes right ‘right’?
The injustice happens now in Laos, particularly the ‘no trial’ is more understandable than rest. I wish I could understand and see more points in your post.
Suwicha Thakor on his life in prison
From Prachathai (not the complete article):
“On May 17, Justice Minister Pirapan Salirathavibhaga launched his ‘Volunteers to Protect Justice’ initiative to organize and train people to inform the authorities on corruption and lèse majesté cases. Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva presided over the event and was registered as the first volunteer.
Abhisit told an audience of about 2,000 at the Thai Army Club on Vibhavadi Rangsit Road that it was government policy to protect and worship the monarchy, prevent and suppress corruption, and encourage the people to check state authority. And he had always championed the rule of law to reign in this country.
He said the initiative provided a good opportunity for people to be active in upholding justice and the nation’s essential institution, and it should expand to the provinces as well.
After the PM led volunteers in taking a vow of loyalty to the monarchy, the Justice Minister gave him a membership card, as member number 1.”
“…..Volunteers are supposed to inform the authorities on the issues of lèse majesté, drugs, money laundering, chit funds, financial scams, national security, environmental and natural resource destruction, tax evasion, corruption, violations of the rights and freedoms of the people, and other illegal acts.
Volunteers must be 15 years old or older, have a clean record, and importantly have a volunteer spirit to participate in activities to be held by the ministry, including training on the law and rights in the judicial process as well as meetings to share information and experience among volunteers.”…..
“….‘Volunteers work as spies [or agents] for the Justice Ministry. But the task must not be burdensome to their own work. Just live an ordinary life, and know that they can turn to the Justice Ministry when they come upon illegal acts,’ said Pirapan.
He believed that people were motivated to become ‘spies’ for the ministry because of their own grievances. The scheme starts in Bangkok, with the expectation of about 50,000 applicants, and will expand to the whole country.”
Get the whole article in English at:
http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/1233
Or in Thai:
http://www.prachatai.com/05web/th/home/page2.php?mod=mod_ptcms&ID=16882&…
Certain injustice in Laos
Medecins Sans Frontieres has just released a briefing paper about the conditions faced by the Lao Hmong along the border, entitled “Hidden Behind Barbed Wire”: http://doctorswithoutborders.org/publications/article.cfm?id=3629&cat=special-report
Suwicha Thakor on his life in prison
Ralph Kramden: I agree, this PM is as disappointing as his predecessors on the LM matter.