I said: “surely a government led by a party of so-called Democrats can come up with a way out of the LM mess.” That doesn’t need to be a way out the mess by changing laws.
And as to cases, there are those in courts and those not yet in courts. Plenty of governments have changed the ways that the police operate, not just in Thailand. And isn’t this what the PM himself has said is the problem? I don’t agree with him but he has said this on more than once.
Your restatement is good enough for the present time I guess. Recall that there were all kinds of decrees, administrative orders etc. etc. But, again, as the PM points out, there are laws and there is implementation.
In response to William K. Roland statement that “NO instances where a death penalty is imposed for a drug offense. This is a travesty and a clear violation of international norms.” Who determine “international norms”? Us, Western? Guess what, the world is no longer made after your image white god. I can also determine that you have never been to either to Laos and Burma. If you had you would notice that there is a world of difference between the two places.
I can not commend about the Hmong in Thailand as I do not know the issue. Here in Vietnam the Hmong are well integrated in society and minorities have even their own TV language channel. But nothing would surprises me from the hypocritical and double dealing Thais.
William K. Roland – Agree with most of what you have to say, especially about Laos getting such a free ride compared to Burma, but FWIW, the British Foreign Office put out this statement on May 19:
All,
Jane Orobator, the mother of British national Samantha Orobator-Oghagbon who is in detention in Laos, visited her daughter for the second time earlier today in Laos. There has been speculation about some aspects of the case. Jane Orobator has asked the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to pass on the following statement on her behalf:
—BEGINS—
I am grateful to the Laos authorities for allowing me to visit my daughter. Samantha is looking well. She told me that she was not raped or sexually assaulted in prison and that the father of her unborn child is not a Lao prison official.
I hope that Samantha can now quickly have a fair trial and that she will be able to come home before too long.
To go straight to the image that Somsak refers to please follow this link. Khunying Potjaman (Thaksin’s wife) is in the back row, third from the right.
Readers with further information on these issues can feel free to post their comments here. It all adds to a picture of the behind-the-scenes machinations that should be of interest to anyone who seeks to understand how the sands of Thai politics and society are shifting…
With much “р╣Ар╕Лр╣Зр╕З”, I should add that all SameSky Books (Far Diew Kan) web pages are regularly blocked. So the links I gave above might not work, unless being accessed under anti-block program like UltraSerf.
For anyone who can read Thai and is interested in more intrigue concerning these “Ladies” (р╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕лр╕Нр╕┤р╕З, р╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╕лр╕Нр╕┤р╕З), see my post here http://www.sameskybooks.org/board/index.php?s=&showtopic=31194&view=findpost&p=371963
It shows a picture of lunch organized by Viraya to celebrate Butsaba’s birthday in late August 2006 (Butsaba was born 2 August). It was attended by, among others, Thaksin’s wife Photjaman. Unknown to Photjaman, this was precisely the time when, according to Sondhi Lim, Butsaba had summoned him inside the palace to receive HMQ’s Blue scarf (and 250000 Baht) in support of his PAD movement to topple Thaksin.
See also discussion by Thanaphol (Fa Diew Kan’s editor) and others on the issue of the latest lunch to ‘console’ Viraya organized by Butsaba, and its implications to the Sondhi assassination attemp, here: http://www.sameskybooks.org/board/index.php?showtopic=31227
Susie Wong writes: The translation of the title was in correct, it should be р╕Кр╕╕р╕бр╕Кр╕Щр╕Ир╕┤р╕Щр╕Хр╕Щр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕г or р╕Ир╕┤р╕Щр╕Хр╕Щр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Кр╕╕р╕бр╕Кр╕Щ.
FYI:
The Thai title was agreed upon by Ben Anderson himself.
I understand that it is meant, first, to avoid being misunderstood as ‘imaginary‘ (communities), and, second, supposedly to better render the past participle ‘imagined.
I personally think it’s unncessary, and р╕Кр╕╕р╕бр╕Кр╕Щр╕Ир╕┤р╕Щр╕Хр╕Щр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕г would do just fine.
Well, one could drive from Prudhoe bay in Alaska to the southern end of Chile, from Gibraltar to Murmansk, from Brest to Diyabakir. It’s only fair to imagine the same connectivity in this part of the world.
If one can drive from Singapore to Kunming, I presume one could also drive as far north as Beijing and maybe up to the Amur river. Going west, however, is probably quite iffy beyond India/Pakistan or Gansu.
I believe it is correct р╕Ир╕┤р╕Щр╕Хр╕Бр╕гр╕гр╕б is closer to ‘imagined’ than р╕Ир╕┤р╕Щр╕Хр╕Щр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕г which means ‘imagination’. We can wait for a Thai linguistics expert to explain it properly.
i feel that the farmers, especially those who work in the rural areas can be trusted with debt. They are conscious and not always ready to be delinquents
Looking forward to reading this. An article in Bangkok Post’s ‘Outlook’ supplement back in February (Mon, Feb 23, 2009) addressed the various translations of Imagined Communities. Anderson noted that: “The Thai version… has been prepared by a team of progressive, critical professors, several of them former students of mine.” When Anderson discussed with the Thai translators that the book has a “republican spirit” and that monarchs are handled with “irony or hostility” the translators replied: “You don’t understand our traditions and our situations.” Anderson stated that he looked forward to “what may be taken as IC’s first royalist translation!” I too relish to unpack this theme in the new translation, although it is already obvious that the Thai royalist version will by its very nature have lost much of the original’s power.
Ralph Kramden: Do you have any comment on Stephan’s: ‘the prime minister cannot just ‘drop’ any cases, this is up to the courts’ ?
or would you like to see the PM interferring in court cases?
You said: ‘And, laws can be changed without the majority of elected lawmakers/representatives. You need to leave out “elected” to account for the half-appointed senate’.
Can I restate that as: ‘apart from coup situations, laws can only be changed by the majority of lawmakers/representatives‘
If that is the case, then wouldn’t the appropriate course of action be for some of those ‘lawmakers/representatives’ to propose appropriate amendments, and then the parliaments vote on them?
It is my understanding that making such proposals is not the sole perogative of the PM or government, so perhaps you should be directing your criticism (in post #30) above to not only the government led by ‘so called Democrats’.
A follow-up to this my first post in New Mandala and my response to Aiontay’s request ( Comment May 14 2009 7) for further details about Pulangka Yao crop scheduling in the 1960s and KMY”confiscatiions” (etc) appears here. Discussion and images of rubble and cairns on opium farms and about stone walling of the perimeters of those fields may be of interest to archaeologists in the UK as well as Southeast Asia.
Now, seriously. I’ve been there short time ago. Burma is a beautiful country, its people are kind and admirable for their dignity and resistance. But Burma is also one of the saddest and most decadent places I’ve ever seen. And I’ve seen some.
Just to stay on the two main points exposed.
– People were really afraid to talk, every time I was approaching them, or they were approaching me about a political issue or something related, they whispered, they were circumspect, careful not to be heard.
– Everyone knows that status of communication technology in Burma is, to say the least, archaic. Just to talk about the web: of course there are proxies but the downloading time is in general disheartening; of course there are chats or fora but Internet penetration is 0,6 % of the whole population, more or less: Congo has a much higher rate. And I could continue for long.
This is what I meant when I suggested to put things in the right context. If you talk about “social networking” in Burma, you cannot do it as you were talking about a “normal” country. Burma is a very special one. The fact that some privileged can use technology to chat doesn’t change the big picture, the situation on the ground. Using an expression you should recognize, this is Yangon, not New York.
Then, if you want to emphasize that, in such difficult context, in such adverse conditions, the efforts of some people in finding spaces to express themselves is very admirable, more admirable than elsewhere, I completely agree with you.
But reality is reality and I’m very sorry if it bothers you. I’m not going to be silent about that. And you shouldn’t as well.
All those who are so quick to blame Ms. Orobator forget that there should be NO instances where a death penalty is imposed for a drug offense. This is a travesty and a clear violation of international norms.
Second, who is the father of her child? I imagine that a twenty year old farang would be quite appealing to the warden and guards. Was the sex consensual? Or was she raped? Is this going to come out?
As for the Hmong — both the Thai and the Lao Governments have a lot to answer for — they are systematically treating over 5000 people as no better than dogs. PM Abhisit’s human rights credential fail on this test. As for the Lao Government, it is little different from the SPDC in Burma when it comes to anyone it deems an opponent to the regime. Why is it treated better than Burma? Better tourism spots? Lao Beer? The fact that if a Lao Aung San Suu Kyi ever appeared, she would be sent to seminar in Attapeu, and never heard from again?
Stephan says that “in the thai democracy neither the king nor the government make , change or ’scrap’ laws.
that is done by the majority of elected lawmakers/representatives.”
Well, not quite. The military often intervenes and scraps laws and directs the making of new ones in Thailand, as they did in 2006. I guess that once they intervene it is no longer a democracy….
And, laws can be changed without the majority of elected lawmakers/representatives. You need to leave out “elected” to account for the half-appointed senate.
Thanks for the insight into the way the king grants pardons.
Suwicha pleaded guilty, so he has admitted wrongdoing. The original article states: “Suwicha was convicted on Apr 3, 2009. The period for filing an appeal has already passed. His family and lawyers decided not to appeal, but were thinking of seeking a royal pardon…”. Of course, his pleading guilty may have been somehow driven by legal circumstances.
He seems in a similar situation to Harry Nicolaides (who did get a pardon) when others claimed he was innocent of serious intent or wrongdoing and claimed the LM law was flawed.
As far as I know, Suwicha’s case is being considered for appeal by the prosecuters so he can’t seek a pardon.
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Suwicha Thakor on his life in prison
nganadeeleg: Yes.
I said: “surely a government led by a party of so-called Democrats can come up with a way out of the LM mess.” That doesn’t need to be a way out the mess by changing laws.
And as to cases, there are those in courts and those not yet in courts. Plenty of governments have changed the ways that the police operate, not just in Thailand. And isn’t this what the PM himself has said is the problem? I don’t agree with him but he has said this on more than once.
Your restatement is good enough for the present time I guess. Recall that there were all kinds of decrees, administrative orders etc. etc. But, again, as the PM points out, there are laws and there is implementation.
Certain injustice in Laos
In response to William K. Roland statement that “NO instances where a death penalty is imposed for a drug offense. This is a travesty and a clear violation of international norms.” Who determine “international norms”? Us, Western? Guess what, the world is no longer made after your image white god. I can also determine that you have never been to either to Laos and Burma. If you had you would notice that there is a world of difference between the two places.
I can not commend about the Hmong in Thailand as I do not know the issue. Here in Vietnam the Hmong are well integrated in society and minorities have even their own TV language channel. But nothing would surprises me from the hypocritical and double dealing Thais.
Certain injustice in Laos
William K. Roland – Agree with most of what you have to say, especially about Laos getting such a free ride compared to Burma, but FWIW, the British Foreign Office put out this statement on May 19:
All,
Jane Orobator, the mother of British national Samantha Orobator-Oghagbon who is in detention in Laos, visited her daughter for the second time earlier today in Laos. There has been speculation about some aspects of the case. Jane Orobator has asked the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to pass on the following statement on her behalf:
—BEGINS—
I am grateful to the Laos authorities for allowing me to visit my daughter. Samantha is looking well. She told me that she was not raped or sexually assaulted in prison and that the father of her unborn child is not a Lao prison official.
I hope that Samantha can now quickly have a fair trial and that she will be able to come home before too long.
—ENDS—
See also:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/20/laos-jail-woman-mother-denies-rape
Genie. Bottle. Thai politics.
Thanks Ajarn Somsak,
To go straight to the image that Somsak refers to please follow this link. Khunying Potjaman (Thaksin’s wife) is in the back row, third from the right.
Readers with further information on these issues can feel free to post their comments here. It all adds to a picture of the behind-the-scenes machinations that should be of interest to anyone who seeks to understand how the sands of Thai politics and society are shifting…
Best wishes to all,
Nich
Genie. Bottle. Thai politics.
With much “р╣Ар╕Лр╣Зр╕З”, I should add that all SameSky Books (Far Diew Kan) web pages are regularly blocked. So the links I gave above might not work, unless being accessed under anti-block program like UltraSerf.
Genie. Bottle. Thai politics.
For anyone who can read Thai and is interested in more intrigue concerning these “Ladies” (р╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕Ьр╕╣р╣Йр╕лр╕Нр╕┤р╕З, р╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╕лр╕Нр╕┤р╕З), see my post here
http://www.sameskybooks.org/board/index.php?s=&showtopic=31194&view=findpost&p=371963
It shows a picture of lunch organized by Viraya to celebrate Butsaba’s birthday in late August 2006 (Butsaba was born 2 August). It was attended by, among others, Thaksin’s wife Photjaman. Unknown to Photjaman, this was precisely the time when, according to Sondhi Lim, Butsaba had summoned him inside the palace to receive HMQ’s Blue scarf (and 250000 Baht) in support of his PAD movement to topple Thaksin.
See also discussion by Thanaphol (Fa Diew Kan’s editor) and others on the issue of the latest lunch to ‘console’ Viraya organized by Butsaba, and its implications to the Sondhi assassination attemp, here:
http://www.sameskybooks.org/board/index.php?showtopic=31227
Imagined Communities
Susie Wong writes:
The translation of the title was in correct, it should be р╕Кр╕╕р╕бр╕Кр╕Щр╕Ир╕┤р╕Щр╕Хр╕Щр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕г or р╕Ир╕┤р╕Щр╕Хр╕Щр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Кр╕╕р╕бр╕Кр╕Щ.
FYI:
The Thai title was agreed upon by Ben Anderson himself.
I understand that it is meant, first, to avoid being misunderstood as ‘imaginary‘ (communities), and, second, supposedly to better render the past participle ‘imagined.
I personally think it’s unncessary, and р╕Кр╕╕р╕бр╕Кр╕Щр╕Ир╕┤р╕Щр╕Хр╕Щр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕г would do just fine.
More ASEAN connections
Well, one could drive from Prudhoe bay in Alaska to the southern end of Chile, from Gibraltar to Murmansk, from Brest to Diyabakir. It’s only fair to imagine the same connectivity in this part of the world.
If one can drive from Singapore to Kunming, I presume one could also drive as far north as Beijing and maybe up to the Amur river. Going west, however, is probably quite iffy beyond India/Pakistan or Gansu.
Imagined Communities
I believe it is correct р╕Ир╕┤р╕Щр╕Хр╕Бр╕гр╕гр╕б is closer to ‘imagined’ than р╕Ир╕┤р╕Щр╕Хр╕Щр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕г which means ‘imagination’. We can wait for a Thai linguistics expert to explain it properly.
I’m confident the translator got the title right.
Imagined Communities
The translation of the title was in correct, it should be р╕Кр╕╕р╕бр╕Кр╕Щр╕Ир╕┤р╕Щр╕Хр╕Щр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕г or р╕Ир╕┤р╕Щр╕Хр╕Щр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Кр╕╕р╕бр╕Кр╕Щ.
Can farmers be trusted with debt? Part 2
i feel that the farmers, especially those who work in the rural areas can be trusted with debt. They are conscious and not always ready to be delinquents
Burma’s least diplomatic envoy
Well, she was reported as being very chipper at her trial. So what?
Imagined Communities
Looking forward to reading this. An article in Bangkok Post’s ‘Outlook’ supplement back in February (Mon, Feb 23, 2009) addressed the various translations of Imagined Communities. Anderson noted that: “The Thai version… has been prepared by a team of progressive, critical professors, several of them former students of mine.” When Anderson discussed with the Thai translators that the book has a “republican spirit” and that monarchs are handled with “irony or hostility” the translators replied: “You don’t understand our traditions and our situations.” Anderson stated that he looked forward to “what may be taken as IC’s first royalist translation!” I too relish to unpack this theme in the new translation, although it is already obvious that the Thai royalist version will by its very nature have lost much of the original’s power.
Suwicha Thakor on his life in prison
Ralph Kramden: Do you have any comment on Stephan’s:
‘the prime minister cannot just ‘drop’ any cases, this is up to the courts’ ?
or would you like to see the PM interferring in court cases?
You said: ‘And, laws can be changed without the majority of elected lawmakers/representatives. You need to leave out “elected” to account for the half-appointed senate’.
Can I restate that as: ‘apart from coup situations, laws can only be changed by the majority of lawmakers/representatives‘
If that is the case, then wouldn’t the appropriate course of action be for some of those ‘lawmakers/representatives’ to propose appropriate amendments, and then the parliaments vote on them?
It is my understanding that making such proposals is not the sole perogative of the PM or government, so perhaps you should be directing your criticism (in post #30) above to not only the government led by ‘so called Democrats’.
The violent suppression of opium cultivation
Another comment from Doug Miles:
A follow-up to this my first post in New Mandala and my response to Aiontay’s request ( Comment May 14 2009 7) for further details about Pulangka Yao crop scheduling in the 1960s and KMY”confiscatiions” (etc) appears here. Discussion and images of rubble and cairns on opium farms and about stone walling of the perimeters of those fields may be of interest to archaeologists in the UK as well as Southeast Asia.
“No toilet paper but unity!” Burma does social networking
Now, seriously. I’ve been there short time ago. Burma is a beautiful country, its people are kind and admirable for their dignity and resistance. But Burma is also one of the saddest and most decadent places I’ve ever seen. And I’ve seen some.
Just to stay on the two main points exposed.
– People were really afraid to talk, every time I was approaching them, or they were approaching me about a political issue or something related, they whispered, they were circumspect, careful not to be heard.
– Everyone knows that status of communication technology in Burma is, to say the least, archaic. Just to talk about the web: of course there are proxies but the downloading time is in general disheartening; of course there are chats or fora but Internet penetration is 0,6 % of the whole population, more or less: Congo has a much higher rate. And I could continue for long.
This is what I meant when I suggested to put things in the right context. If you talk about “social networking” in Burma, you cannot do it as you were talking about a “normal” country. Burma is a very special one. The fact that some privileged can use technology to chat doesn’t change the big picture, the situation on the ground. Using an expression you should recognize, this is Yangon, not New York.
Then, if you want to emphasize that, in such difficult context, in such adverse conditions, the efforts of some people in finding spaces to express themselves is very admirable, more admirable than elsewhere, I completely agree with you.
But reality is reality and I’m very sorry if it bothers you. I’m not going to be silent about that. And you shouldn’t as well.
Regards.
Reader
Bangladesh to Burma “friendship” road
travelling on land (through
Myannar to bangladesh) is a no no thing. If any one have done it. would LOVe to know.
Certain injustice in Laos
All those who are so quick to blame Ms. Orobator forget that there should be NO instances where a death penalty is imposed for a drug offense. This is a travesty and a clear violation of international norms.
Second, who is the father of her child? I imagine that a twenty year old farang would be quite appealing to the warden and guards. Was the sex consensual? Or was she raped? Is this going to come out?
As for the Hmong — both the Thai and the Lao Governments have a lot to answer for — they are systematically treating over 5000 people as no better than dogs. PM Abhisit’s human rights credential fail on this test. As for the Lao Government, it is little different from the SPDC in Burma when it comes to anyone it deems an opponent to the regime. Why is it treated better than Burma? Better tourism spots? Lao Beer? The fact that if a Lao Aung San Suu Kyi ever appeared, she would be sent to seminar in Attapeu, and never heard from again?
Suwicha Thakor on his life in prison
Stephan says that “in the thai democracy neither the king nor the government make , change or ’scrap’ laws.
that is done by the majority of elected lawmakers/representatives.”
Well, not quite. The military often intervenes and scraps laws and directs the making of new ones in Thailand, as they did in 2006. I guess that once they intervene it is no longer a democracy….
And, laws can be changed without the majority of elected lawmakers/representatives. You need to leave out “elected” to account for the half-appointed senate.
Thanks for the insight into the way the king grants pardons.
Suwicha pleaded guilty, so he has admitted wrongdoing. The original article states: “Suwicha was convicted on Apr 3, 2009. The period for filing an appeal has already passed. His family and lawyers decided not to appeal, but were thinking of seeking a royal pardon…”. Of course, his pleading guilty may have been somehow driven by legal circumstances.
He seems in a similar situation to Harry Nicolaides (who did get a pardon) when others claimed he was innocent of serious intent or wrongdoing and claimed the LM law was flawed.
As far as I know, Suwicha’s case is being considered for appeal by the prosecuters so he can’t seek a pardon.
Shan conference in London, December 2007
Any Buddhist Confereance News