I’ve been following this thread closely with great interest. All you guys’ commenting are very thought-provoking to a novice like me.Look forward for more comments and arguments.
But I think Jim Taylor was into deliberate misrepresentation when he started his post # 7 with “IN FACT, the latest figures show that 156 persons are still missing . . .” then carried on by passing information as if his report comes from first hand source.
Jim Taylor likes to repeat that he is an anthropologist from Adelaide as if his title or his nationality could impress!
(BTW I said it before and I’ll say it again, Jim Taylor is Thaksin’s handyman if you have been following all his posters)
Actually I have no problem with pseudonyms as “Nobody” said: living in Thailand one as to be careful. That is my point: Why is it not safe now? Has Abhisit created a new Stalinist (“Land of Smiles”) social and political environment in his attempt at the coercive muting all Other truths and disparate voices? I also have as much, if not more, to risk than Nobody [et al], by disclosure. But I stand by a conviction that following comment made in a Dhamma talk by the late oft-quoted famous hermit monk Luang Phor Ruesii Ling Dam that we are now in the period of the “White Crow” (Yuk Kaa-khao). This is where that which is actually right is deemed wrong, and conversely that which is wrong is estolled as being right. This is a period of confusion; a web of deceit that has been spun to serve the interests of a few.
Not knowing the precise location of the recent photo of the vicinity of Phulangka, I can’t say for sure, but it seems highly unlikely that the grasslands are in places where there has been no cutting of trees for thirty years. There is a village in these hills, and they were growing corn and cotton (and rice etc) in the 1990s, in swidden fields. Soil fertility is low because people are not in a situation to rotate fields much at all. On the other side of the mountain, Northern Thai farmers have been expanding corn (maize) fields ever higher, to some extent they get away with it because they are don’t have the stigma of ethnic minority hill tribe farmers.
Chang Noi: Is there anyone who thinks that PAD is not royalist? Was it necessary to introduce this blinding news to the world?
Perhaps, you mean:
Is there anyone who thinks that UDD is not pro-Thaksin? (Or, “is there anyone who thinks that Thaksin is not behind the UDD?) Was it necessary to introduce this blinding news to the world?
Is it not much more ‘puzzling’ that you choose to introduce only the ‘blinding news’ of Thaksin and the UDD ? What is more ‘blinding news’, really?
Now, be honest please! You choose to introduce only ‘ news’ of Thaksin and the UDD because the other side isn’t ‘news’? Really?
As to how it would change the arguement of the article, I thought I made it quite clear: the suggestion that PAD wants to “go beyond old politics” is dead wrong by its call for the Royal Power, by the fact that the monarchy is “in its background”.
By ‘omitting’ the monarchy-PAD connection, one could of course formally made such rediculous suggestion.
Simmer down, guys. Jim, your report at the head of this thread is interesting & useful; thanks. The discussion is also interesting & informative, for me particularly, since I’ve been away for the last few weeks, & unable to follow what’s been going on.
re. the slagging match: I think we all know the degree of deceit that is routinely employed in Thailand in media reports, in government statements (as yr report shows), as well as in all manner of explanations & justifications of even the simplest of new policies, stuff-ups, etc., even in ordinary workplaces, schools, retail stores, & homes. Lying is a cultural institution. This leads to a situation where nobody really believes anyone about anything. But they pretend to! (Dickie, you are joking, aren’t you, when you say, ” I don’t doubt Abhisits sincerity”?) So, it’s useful if stuff like Jim’s statements re. the dead are attributed, even if actual names can’t be given. The info re. your main source, plus the websites given, is quite acceptable, given the circumstances. Obviously we can’t take it as proven, but at least we can give it a ‘possible’ rating, if we’re so inclined (& I am now), & be on the lookout for more tangible evidence.
The video frankly doesn’t prove anything either. In a more lawful society, reporters would have followed the van(s) & reported, & there would have been proper follow-up. As it is, they merely show that there were several people brought to the ground in a state where they had to be carried to the vans. In a country where we do know that the military & police do often kill citizens & get away with it, & people do often ‘disappear’ permanently, & there are no signs that this will ever change, regardless of who’s in power, it’s reasonable to conclude that they just may have been murdered. As far as numbers are concerned, there’s nothing concrete to go on yet, but if nobody says anything we’ll never know. So do tell stuff like this, & do tell, to the extent you can, where you got it. And a bit of healthy skepticism will help. TKNS is a useful model.
re. your put-down of contributors who use ‘web psydonyms’ (sic): not everyone has a well-established university behind them. Most contributors to this site use false names, even those who look ‘real’ ( Ralph Kramden – ‘The Honeymooners,’ 1960s Yank comedy series; Dickie Simpkins – NBA player). It doesn’t take a genius to understand why, in a country that is getting to be like Stalinist Russia. I’m surprised that you can defend the anonymity of your ‘source’ & then attack someone else who may also have a lot to lose, for wanting to post anonymously.
Very interesting piece indeed. I have 2 technical questions.
First, where more exactly were the pictures of Thung Yai Naresuan/Phro Phra WS taken? I don’t think there is a Pho Phra WS. So could the pictures have been taken within or close to the Phop Phra resettlement center (Phop Phra district, Tak) or in Mae Wong National Park, where Kesmanee reported massive illegal logging following evictions? Is this piece a proof that the same pattern eviction-illegal logging happened in TYN, or is it the same case?
Also, could the picture c 1995-00 taken in Thung Yai /Phop Phra be added to the text?
Second, any clues as to why forest regrowth has not taken place around Phulangka (figure 14)? The land remained largely uncultivated and unused for pasture ? Could grasses such as I. cylindrica block natural regeneration over such a long period without anthropogenic disturbances? Was the site “only” bombed or were defoliant and naplam also used?
Jim Taylor I note that by your listing of sites above you now identify yourself as a UDD operative and renounce any claim to be an academic.
Personally I find it sad that a so called academic will succumb to being a propoganda operative for one side in this brutal power struggle. However, ………..
Jim Taylor again attack the messenger rather than the message.
Some of us live in Thailand and have to be careful of what is said.If one wants to say that is hiding behind pseudonyms then fine. You accuse me of doing what you say you are protecting your sources from. Why because someone disagrees with you should they identify themselves publically but it is too dangerous for your sources to do so?
Just because someone says something you do not agree with doesnt mean that they want their name associated with what is said.
Personally I am happy to identify myself openly to you in private but being someone who criticises other things that are more contentious I have no desire to put at risk me and my family.
Note: not only red cadres are at risk from making free speech comments
I would also appreciate a response to my comments rather than just yet another attack on me although I appreciate that you may well be a campaign mode foreigner supporting the red side and therefore expect little.
i’m not sure i understand your reasoning to post your comment in this very thread:
““Hitler was also elected” is a truly crazy reduction of post 1918 German politics (I say this as a German).”
ok, from my personal perspective, that is shaped by being brought up in germany & having lived there. though i won’t say, “i’m a german”.
i’d say “no” to your post. i’d suggest there’s evidence to go by that actually hitler, mussolini, franco capitalized on what today is called “weak state”.
they came to power “legally” — with intent to destroy “corrupt” “regimes”: sounds familiar?
Ajan Somsak, it’s all a bit puzzling. Is there anyone who thinks that PAD is not royalist? Was it necessary to introduce this blinding news to the world? Would it have changed the argument of this piece (about movement politics vs. intrigue politics) one bit?
i’m glad u’re lucky among us to choose a name, wisely 😉
“Fact is dead. Long live belief!”
i would not even call it “belief”, as in “faith”. i’d call it self-indulgence in “these movements that appear in mind”.
once, we believed in academia — as posts of jim taylor & others show, obviously academia has been corrupted. well, lots of examples, anyhow 😉
once, we believed in “critical discourse” — it seems today everybody with access to internet just collects & cites “sources” or “evidence” for some more bricks in her/his “wall” of “personal point of view”
once, we believed in a “scientific approach” — nowadays… it seems people prefer to seek shelter in cosy “we’re same same” reality-substratae
*…
i have not commented on Nick Nostiz’ report. is it necessary that everybody utters opinion on everything? many contributors offered genuine respect — even if it was “critical”, what’s bad ab that?
i liked it. that does not imply i take it at face-value. i guess, more than one journalist, has experienced that even honest coverage of actual events… does necessarily imply… that you got it right. on-the-street journalism comes with benefit of actuality. otoh, it’s analysis that tries to bring events into “perspective”.
to make point clear: anybody out there who want to say that us-army media-strategy of so-called “embedded journalists” is an attempt… to show “the truth”?
journalists are individuals. we all are. & we all are limited, by heritage culture age what-ever, aren’t we?
there’s no doubt Nick Nostiz is “biased”. it’s obvious. for me, personally, there’s nothing wrong about that. i don’t know that many people who are _NOT_ biased.
*…
ab Portman:
it may be i got it completely wrong. but, imho, readers of nm should be grateful he offered his comments on weapons. i do say that… as of today i couldn’t find comparable insight not even among so-called (public) “intelligence sources”.
if i’m allowed to say… i think it’s sad to see… that by now, 3 weeks after “black songkran”, some people, still, are not willing to distinguish between a strictly “military” sop & “political” “authority/responsibility”.
to make point clear: it wasn’t dismissed that some military staff might have used lethal ammunition. as far as i understand Portman’s argumentation is quite simple: that any “assumed” general (political, military) authorisation of lethal ammunition _SHOULD_ have resulted in a higher number of casualities.
& thus, question results: where are the bodies?
now people here & elsewhere have shown effort to provide _”LINKS”_ to photos, videos, etc — as if _that_ in itself would proof anything.
they even say, “WE SAW IT”. where? well, there’s this video & that photo & here’s an audio in a language i don’t know etc etc etc
how is it possible that _anyone_ can claim to be a “witness” by referring to unvalidated media-sources?
yes, some media-material is disturbing. & i’m glad thailand with pm abhisit has agreed to setup panels for investigation.
nonetheless, personally, i think it’s _much more_ “disturbing” that people actually assume an intent to mass-killings. & worse, that they’re “eager” to “show” (_not_ “proof”) it as “truth”. & even worse, obviously, no call for reason matters.
this is going on now since 3 weeks. i haven’t seen any evidence that can be substantiated. not even puea thai during parliamentary debate was able to provide substantial evidence.
since 3 weeks now claims come up in public arenas insinuating this plot or that, this chain of causation or another. in classical terms it’s “disinformation” — as, i guess many of us will know; it takes a lot of time, effort & research to debunk some weird claim. whereas it’s so easy to spread weird claims, nowadays, isn’t it?
i’m sorry, for a comment it’s quite long. thx for ur time to read it na.
Also, check out the following: http://www.prachataiwebboard.com/webboard/wbtopic2.php?id=800153
Here someone posted that from 9-15 april there were 156 cases reported missing to DSI through Duangprateep Foundation and House # 111 Foundation. This person asked the so called “cyber worriers” to spread this information as it has been blocked.
hmmm… lot of words about establishing credibility and evidence…
its not easy when there is a media blackout in Thailand on everything except the government story
there is explicit blackout through banning and now defacto banning of all explicit redshirt media including D Station and the regional community radio stations, plus censorship and self-censorship of the Thai and English media and the Internet in Thailand
the latest example is the sacking of the editor and deputy editor by the owner of Matichon for being too supportive of the redshirts…
some redshirts had commented that Matichon occassionally published some information that never appeared on other media but apparently that was seen as “dangerous” to the government “massive media operation to tell the real story”
The statement:
“Surely with the resources of Thaksin and the Red Shirts (their inside connections to the military, police et al) they would contrive the appropriate device to reveal ‘the truth’ ”
seems to be a story put out by Sondhi Lim and the government to scare people into thinking there is lots of redshirts “truth” being published and skewing peoples minds (proof and evidence? compare with extremely large “resources”, money and military assistance, of the PAD)
The military “sufficiency communities project” means there are many redshirts being visited and invited to “discussions” about right actions and thoughts right now
I think Thailand is in a very dangerous situation right now, with Nepal, Cambodia, Laos and of course Burma as indicators of possible futures for the “Kingdom” after the peaceful or turbulent succession occurs
What sort of Thailand do you want to live in?
btw… my reference to the crocodile farm is derived from the stories from 1976… its probably quite unlikely that anyone has been recently fed to the crocs, but who really knows?
Nobody- we are all “nobody”- but some of us a least do not hide behind web psydonyms: If I were spinning tales then I would be pretty stupid to use my real name eh? (Oh- Ok, so I am stupid?) The argument goes nowhere does it? So you would rather believe the Thai English-language print media because it has credibility? Does it? The point is I am not asking anyone to believe what I say but feel free to read and investigate for themselves, and ask the question: “could there be any truth in this?”. I have a key informant currently in a vulnerable position in Thailand who confided in me and in fact was there on the 13th (as on the 1st May ISOC Chiangmai conference) – as were thousands of others in fact. Their stories were ignored by the media heavily censored by the state. So they resorted to blogs on resistance web sites many of which were been tracked and disappeared notlong after they appeared. So what can I say? why would the apparatus of the state be so frightened by these other truths? Ask yourselves that question rather than becoming infatuated with personal attacks on the messenger: That is a Sondhi media tactic: attack the personality (as with Thaksin & Red Shirt leaders) and discredit through as much fiction & spin as possible. Do that as often as you can and, guess what? People will believe you…
Has anyone told Nattawut, Jatuporn, Veera, Charan etc that Jakrapob is now leader of the red movement? I would also question how well that would go down with Love Chiang Mai 51 considering their intolerant opinions on certain things.
On a more serious note. I though that the red side were loose alliance of groups around basic issues without a leadership structure. At least thats how the reds I know explain it to me. Still just because they say it is so doesnt make it that way.
Of course i also have “been hanging out with those red shirts who throw motolovs”. How do you think i can take photos of them? Via a robotic camera that flies a kilometer in front of me so i don’t need to mix with the ordinary folks while chitchatting with the leaders? 😉
I have written what i have seen, and not what i haven not seen (unless confirmed to me by trusted and proven sources, which i have also pointed out). I think i made that clear at the beginning of my report, and that it possibly cannot be a complete report.
But thanks for recognizing my efforts to be fair. Fairness is the only objectivity we can possibly reach.
Generally speaking though, I am very tired of the constant accusation of being biased by people (and some colleagues as well) who i do not see working on the ground in either camp. I have sympathies with the ordinary Red Shirt supporters, and many of their complaints that they cannot voice at the election booths anymore. That does not mean that i am “biased”. Please read the definitions of “bias” and “sympathy” in any dictionary, and see the difference.
I go and work in both camps, on the ground, as any journalist who works this story should do (and some of the complaints of the Yellow Shirts i am sympathetic towards as well). And to be clear – i am an accredited journalist in Thailand, i have a press card issued by the Department of Public Relations. Whenever i work in the protests, my press card is visible to anybody.
I have included more than a few points that are critical to the Red Shirts. But these are events that i have seen in person, on the ground, and not events based on second and third hand information.
I am still in the process trying to collect further information on the events, but that information comes from trustworthy sources, also from within the military and other security agencies, and not just from newspapers that have already misreported events that i have seen very different on the ground. Of course these sources are, and will stay confidential.
So far, the information i have collected after posting my report does not change the timeline, or my interpretation of the events, but completes it in certain details that i have not seen in person.
I stand by what i wrote here. Anyone is free to disagree, but then please present clear proof where i was wrong, and i will of curse consider and investigate it.
To simplify ..Thai people have to really be united and fight for Democracy not Demockcrazy.Thai army are greedy,self obsession,and corrupted.These kind of general army people should be wiped out.
In the paragraph “I don’t doubt Abhisit’s sincerity” I wanted to finish with the sentence, “We can all assume that Abhisit is definitely not in control of the government, which is why he should end the farce and call and election”
Since I’m writing a new post anyways, I point to the LM cases (against Prachathai, Sulak, and BBC ‘raid’) wherein Abhisit had no idea what is going on. Again shows his ‘government’ is not in charge of anything.
Facebook 
Twitter 
Soundcloud 
Youtube 
Rss
Chang Noi on the “grey politics of survival”
I’ve been following this thread closely with great interest. All you guys’ commenting are very thought-provoking to a novice like me.Look forward for more comments and arguments.
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
Tks ‘snarls’ for trying to cool tempers.
But I think Jim Taylor was into deliberate misrepresentation when he started his post # 7 with “IN FACT, the latest figures show that 156 persons are still missing . . .” then carried on by passing information as if his report comes from first hand source.
Jim Taylor likes to repeat that he is an anthropologist from Adelaide as if his title or his nationality could impress!
(BTW I said it before and I’ll say it again, Jim Taylor is Thaksin’s handyman if you have been following all his posters)
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
Actually I have no problem with pseudonyms as “Nobody” said: living in Thailand one as to be careful. That is my point: Why is it not safe now? Has Abhisit created a new Stalinist (“Land of Smiles”) social and political environment in his attempt at the coercive muting all Other truths and disparate voices? I also have as much, if not more, to risk than Nobody [et al], by disclosure. But I stand by a conviction that following comment made in a Dhamma talk by the late oft-quoted famous hermit monk Luang Phor Ruesii Ling Dam that we are now in the period of the “White Crow” (Yuk Kaa-khao). This is where that which is actually right is deemed wrong, and conversely that which is wrong is estolled as being right. This is a period of confusion; a web of deceit that has been spun to serve the interests of a few.
The violent suppression of opium cultivation
Not knowing the precise location of the recent photo of the vicinity of Phulangka, I can’t say for sure, but it seems highly unlikely that the grasslands are in places where there has been no cutting of trees for thirty years. There is a village in these hills, and they were growing corn and cotton (and rice etc) in the 1990s, in swidden fields. Soil fertility is low because people are not in a situation to rotate fields much at all. On the other side of the mountain, Northern Thai farmers have been expanding corn (maize) fields ever higher, to some extent they get away with it because they are don’t have the stigma of ethnic minority hill tribe farmers.
Chang Noi on the “grey politics of survival”
Chang Noi:
Is there anyone who thinks that PAD is not royalist? Was it necessary to introduce this blinding news to the world?
Perhaps, you mean:
Is there anyone who thinks that UDD is not pro-Thaksin? (Or, “is there anyone who thinks that Thaksin is not behind the UDD?) Was it necessary to introduce this blinding news to the world?
Is it not much more ‘puzzling’ that you choose to introduce only the ‘blinding news’ of Thaksin and the UDD ? What is more ‘blinding news’, really?
Now, be honest please! You choose to introduce only ‘ news’ of Thaksin and the UDD because the other side isn’t ‘news’? Really?
As to how it would change the arguement of the article, I thought I made it quite clear: the suggestion that PAD wants to “go beyond old politics” is dead wrong by its call for the Royal Power, by the fact that the monarchy is “in its background”.
By ‘omitting’ the monarchy-PAD connection, one could of course formally made such rediculous suggestion.
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
Simmer down, guys. Jim, your report at the head of this thread is interesting & useful; thanks. The discussion is also interesting & informative, for me particularly, since I’ve been away for the last few weeks, & unable to follow what’s been going on.
re. the slagging match: I think we all know the degree of deceit that is routinely employed in Thailand in media reports, in government statements (as yr report shows), as well as in all manner of explanations & justifications of even the simplest of new policies, stuff-ups, etc., even in ordinary workplaces, schools, retail stores, & homes. Lying is a cultural institution. This leads to a situation where nobody really believes anyone about anything. But they pretend to! (Dickie, you are joking, aren’t you, when you say, ” I don’t doubt Abhisits sincerity”?) So, it’s useful if stuff like Jim’s statements re. the dead are attributed, even if actual names can’t be given. The info re. your main source, plus the websites given, is quite acceptable, given the circumstances. Obviously we can’t take it as proven, but at least we can give it a ‘possible’ rating, if we’re so inclined (& I am now), & be on the lookout for more tangible evidence.
The video frankly doesn’t prove anything either. In a more lawful society, reporters would have followed the van(s) & reported, & there would have been proper follow-up. As it is, they merely show that there were several people brought to the ground in a state where they had to be carried to the vans. In a country where we do know that the military & police do often kill citizens & get away with it, & people do often ‘disappear’ permanently, & there are no signs that this will ever change, regardless of who’s in power, it’s reasonable to conclude that they just may have been murdered. As far as numbers are concerned, there’s nothing concrete to go on yet, but if nobody says anything we’ll never know. So do tell stuff like this, & do tell, to the extent you can, where you got it. And a bit of healthy skepticism will help. TKNS is a useful model.
re. your put-down of contributors who use ‘web psydonyms’ (sic): not everyone has a well-established university behind them. Most contributors to this site use false names, even those who look ‘real’ ( Ralph Kramden – ‘The Honeymooners,’ 1960s Yank comedy series; Dickie Simpkins – NBA player). It doesn’t take a genius to understand why, in a country that is getting to be like Stalinist Russia. I’m surprised that you can defend the anonymity of your ‘source’ & then attack someone else who may also have a lot to lose, for wanting to post anonymously.
Thai translation of “The crushing of the Red Shirts”
meanwhile TJS is also not wasting their time :
TJA to publish ‘fact’ books on Songkran riot.
“the book would be presented through the media’s views …
The purpose of the publication is to record history for the sake of education… ”
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/30102113/TJA-to-publish-fact-books-on-Songkran-riot.
in other words – to start BRAINWASHING the students ASAP ! 🙂
bravo, Thai MSM, “Democrats” and Abhisit !
very smart move.
The violent suppression of opium cultivation
Very interesting piece indeed. I have 2 technical questions.
First, where more exactly were the pictures of Thung Yai Naresuan/Phro Phra WS taken? I don’t think there is a Pho Phra WS. So could the pictures have been taken within or close to the Phop Phra resettlement center (Phop Phra district, Tak) or in Mae Wong National Park, where Kesmanee reported massive illegal logging following evictions? Is this piece a proof that the same pattern eviction-illegal logging happened in TYN, or is it the same case?
Also, could the picture c 1995-00 taken in Thung Yai /Phop Phra be added to the text?
Second, any clues as to why forest regrowth has not taken place around Phulangka (figure 14)? The land remained largely uncultivated and unused for pasture ? Could grasses such as I. cylindrica block natural regeneration over such a long period without anthropogenic disturbances? Was the site “only” bombed or were defoliant and naplam also used?
Thanks
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
Jim Taylor I note that by your listing of sites above you now identify yourself as a UDD operative and renounce any claim to be an academic.
Personally I find it sad that a so called academic will succumb to being a propoganda operative for one side in this brutal power struggle. However, ………..
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
Jim Taylor again attack the messenger rather than the message.
Some of us live in Thailand and have to be careful of what is said.If one wants to say that is hiding behind pseudonyms then fine. You accuse me of doing what you say you are protecting your sources from. Why because someone disagrees with you should they identify themselves publically but it is too dangerous for your sources to do so?
Just because someone says something you do not agree with doesnt mean that they want their name associated with what is said.
Personally I am happy to identify myself openly to you in private but being someone who criticises other things that are more contentious I have no desire to put at risk me and my family.
Note: not only red cadres are at risk from making free speech comments
I would also appreciate a response to my comments rather than just yet another attack on me although I appreciate that you may well be a campaign mode foreigner supporting the red side and therefore expect little.
“Just leave him alone”
@ Srithanonchai, c.3:
i’m not sure i understand your reasoning to post your comment in this very thread:
““Hitler was also elected” is a truly crazy reduction of post 1918 German politics (I say this as a German).”
ok, from my personal perspective, that is shaped by being brought up in germany & having lived there. though i won’t say, “i’m a german”.
i’d say “no” to your post. i’d suggest there’s evidence to go by that actually hitler, mussolini, franco capitalized on what today is called “weak state”.
they came to power “legally” — with intent to destroy “corrupt” “regimes”: sounds familiar?
well, weak democracies, na?
Chang Noi on the “grey politics of survival”
Ajan Somsak, it’s all a bit puzzling. Is there anyone who thinks that PAD is not royalist? Was it necessary to introduce this blinding news to the world? Would it have changed the argument of this piece (about movement politics vs. intrigue politics) one bit?
Still, it’s been an interesting thread. Thanks.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
@ nobody, c.157
i’m glad u’re lucky among us to choose a name, wisely 😉
“Fact is dead. Long live belief!”
i would not even call it “belief”, as in “faith”. i’d call it self-indulgence in “these movements that appear in mind”.
once, we believed in academia — as posts of jim taylor & others show, obviously academia has been corrupted. well, lots of examples, anyhow 😉
once, we believed in “critical discourse” — it seems today everybody with access to internet just collects & cites “sources” or “evidence” for some more bricks in her/his “wall” of “personal point of view”
once, we believed in a “scientific approach” — nowadays… it seems people prefer to seek shelter in cosy “we’re same same” reality-substratae
*…
i have not commented on Nick Nostiz’ report. is it necessary that everybody utters opinion on everything? many contributors offered genuine respect — even if it was “critical”, what’s bad ab that?
i liked it. that does not imply i take it at face-value. i guess, more than one journalist, has experienced that even honest coverage of actual events… does necessarily imply… that you got it right. on-the-street journalism comes with benefit of actuality. otoh, it’s analysis that tries to bring events into “perspective”.
to make point clear: anybody out there who want to say that us-army media-strategy of so-called “embedded journalists” is an attempt… to show “the truth”?
journalists are individuals. we all are. & we all are limited, by heritage culture age what-ever, aren’t we?
there’s no doubt Nick Nostiz is “biased”. it’s obvious. for me, personally, there’s nothing wrong about that. i don’t know that many people who are _NOT_ biased.
*…
ab Portman:
it may be i got it completely wrong. but, imho, readers of nm should be grateful he offered his comments on weapons. i do say that… as of today i couldn’t find comparable insight not even among so-called (public) “intelligence sources”.
if i’m allowed to say… i think it’s sad to see… that by now, 3 weeks after “black songkran”, some people, still, are not willing to distinguish between a strictly “military” sop & “political” “authority/responsibility”.
to make point clear: it wasn’t dismissed that some military staff might have used lethal ammunition. as far as i understand Portman’s argumentation is quite simple: that any “assumed” general (political, military) authorisation of lethal ammunition _SHOULD_ have resulted in a higher number of casualities.
& thus, question results: where are the bodies?
now people here & elsewhere have shown effort to provide _”LINKS”_ to photos, videos, etc — as if _that_ in itself would proof anything.
they even say, “WE SAW IT”. where? well, there’s this video & that photo & here’s an audio in a language i don’t know etc etc etc
how is it possible that _anyone_ can claim to be a “witness” by referring to unvalidated media-sources?
yes, some media-material is disturbing. & i’m glad thailand with pm abhisit has agreed to setup panels for investigation.
nonetheless, personally, i think it’s _much more_ “disturbing” that people actually assume an intent to mass-killings. & worse, that they’re “eager” to “show” (_not_ “proof”) it as “truth”. & even worse, obviously, no call for reason matters.
this is going on now since 3 weeks. i haven’t seen any evidence that can be substantiated. not even puea thai during parliamentary debate was able to provide substantial evidence.
since 3 weeks now claims come up in public arenas insinuating this plot or that, this chain of causation or another. in classical terms it’s “disinformation” — as, i guess many of us will know; it takes a lot of time, effort & research to debunk some weird claim. whereas it’s so easy to spread weird claims, nowadays, isn’t it?
i’m sorry, for a comment it’s quite long. thx for ur time to read it na.
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
Here are some electronic sites readers may like to check out:
Try Ning’s UDDtoday for video clips:
http://uddtoday.ning.com/video/video/listForContributor?screenName=1gdw6r62ec0nd
Also, check out the following:
http://www.prachataiwebboard.com/webboard/wbtopic2.php?id=800153
Here someone posted that from 9-15 april there were 156 cases reported missing to DSI through Duangprateep Foundation and House # 111 Foundation. This person asked the so called “cyber worriers” to spread this information as it has been blocked.
Another website shows pictures of red shirt people getting together at Din Daeng to dedicate merit to those people who died during the Songkran period protest:
http://prachachonthai.com/webboard/index.php?topic=498.msg1503;topicseen#new
Comments from the right wing please??
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
hmmm… lot of words about establishing credibility and evidence…
its not easy when there is a media blackout in Thailand on everything except the government story
there is explicit blackout through banning and now defacto banning of all explicit redshirt media including D Station and the regional community radio stations, plus censorship and self-censorship of the Thai and English media and the Internet in Thailand
the latest example is the sacking of the editor and deputy editor by the owner of Matichon for being too supportive of the redshirts…
some redshirts had commented that Matichon occassionally published some information that never appeared on other media but apparently that was seen as “dangerous” to the government “massive media operation to tell the real story”
The statement:
“Surely with the resources of Thaksin and the Red Shirts (their inside connections to the military, police et al) they would contrive the appropriate device to reveal ‘the truth’ ”
seems to be a story put out by Sondhi Lim and the government to scare people into thinking there is lots of redshirts “truth” being published and skewing peoples minds (proof and evidence? compare with extremely large “resources”, money and military assistance, of the PAD)
The military “sufficiency communities project” means there are many redshirts being visited and invited to “discussions” about right actions and thoughts right now
I think Thailand is in a very dangerous situation right now, with Nepal, Cambodia, Laos and of course Burma as indicators of possible futures for the “Kingdom” after the peaceful or turbulent succession occurs
What sort of Thailand do you want to live in?
btw… my reference to the crocodile farm is derived from the stories from 1976… its probably quite unlikely that anyone has been recently fed to the crocs, but who really knows?
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
Nobody- we are all “nobody”- but some of us a least do not hide behind web psydonyms: If I were spinning tales then I would be pretty stupid to use my real name eh? (Oh- Ok, so I am stupid?) The argument goes nowhere does it? So you would rather believe the Thai English-language print media because it has credibility? Does it? The point is I am not asking anyone to believe what I say but feel free to read and investigate for themselves, and ask the question: “could there be any truth in this?”. I have a key informant currently in a vulnerable position in Thailand who confided in me and in fact was there on the 13th (as on the 1st May ISOC Chiangmai conference) – as were thousands of others in fact. Their stories were ignored by the media heavily censored by the state. So they resorted to blogs on resistance web sites many of which were been tracked and disappeared notlong after they appeared. So what can I say? why would the apparatus of the state be so frightened by these other truths? Ask yourselves that question rather than becoming infatuated with personal attacks on the messenger: That is a Sondhi media tactic: attack the personality (as with Thaksin & Red Shirt leaders) and discredit through as much fiction & spin as possible. Do that as often as you can and, guess what? People will believe you…
“Raid” at the BBC
Has anyone told Nattawut, Jatuporn, Veera, Charan etc that Jakrapob is now leader of the red movement? I would also question how well that would go down with Love Chiang Mai 51 considering their intolerant opinions on certain things.
On a more serious note. I though that the red side were loose alliance of groups around basic issues without a leadership structure. At least thats how the reds I know explain it to me. Still just because they say it is so doesnt make it that way.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
“DanielCU”
Of course i also have “been hanging out with those red shirts who throw motolovs”. How do you think i can take photos of them? Via a robotic camera that flies a kilometer in front of me so i don’t need to mix with the ordinary folks while chitchatting with the leaders? 😉
I have written what i have seen, and not what i haven not seen (unless confirmed to me by trusted and proven sources, which i have also pointed out). I think i made that clear at the beginning of my report, and that it possibly cannot be a complete report.
But thanks for recognizing my efforts to be fair. Fairness is the only objectivity we can possibly reach.
Generally speaking though, I am very tired of the constant accusation of being biased by people (and some colleagues as well) who i do not see working on the ground in either camp. I have sympathies with the ordinary Red Shirt supporters, and many of their complaints that they cannot voice at the election booths anymore. That does not mean that i am “biased”. Please read the definitions of “bias” and “sympathy” in any dictionary, and see the difference.
I go and work in both camps, on the ground, as any journalist who works this story should do (and some of the complaints of the Yellow Shirts i am sympathetic towards as well). And to be clear – i am an accredited journalist in Thailand, i have a press card issued by the Department of Public Relations. Whenever i work in the protests, my press card is visible to anybody.
I have included more than a few points that are critical to the Red Shirts. But these are events that i have seen in person, on the ground, and not events based on second and third hand information.
I am still in the process trying to collect further information on the events, but that information comes from trustworthy sources, also from within the military and other security agencies, and not just from newspapers that have already misreported events that i have seen very different on the ground. Of course these sources are, and will stay confidential.
So far, the information i have collected after posting my report does not change the timeline, or my interpretation of the events, but completes it in certain details that i have not seen in person.
I stand by what i wrote here. Anyone is free to disagree, but then please present clear proof where i was wrong, and i will of curse consider and investigate it.
Pasuk and Baker on “spirits, stars and Thai politics”
To simplify ..Thai people have to really be united and fight for Democracy not Demockcrazy.Thai army are greedy,self obsession,and corrupted.These kind of general army people should be wiped out.
They really retard the country
Red faces: Unconvincing psych-ops
In the paragraph “I don’t doubt Abhisit’s sincerity” I wanted to finish with the sentence, “We can all assume that Abhisit is definitely not in control of the government, which is why he should end the farce and call and election”
Since I’m writing a new post anyways, I point to the LM cases (against Prachathai, Sulak, and BBC ‘raid’) wherein Abhisit had no idea what is going on. Again shows his ‘government’ is not in charge of anything.