What are the grievances of the rank and file red shirts? Apart from whitewashing Thaksin, giving him his money back and bringing him home to be a vengeful PM, it is not clear what these are?
Those message boards on the Irrawaddy are truly disturbing, but not so surprising. Many of my Burmese friends – people I would normally consider thoughtful and mild-mannered – hold similar views.
Who is the politician most likely not to use astrology?
Abhisit.
Who is the politician that Isan folk seem not to be too impressed with nowadays?
Abhisit.
Who are the biggest devotees of astrology and magic?
The rural masses, the swing vote.
As for this quote:
“In the end, the survival of these beliefs has a profoundly anti-democratic aspect. Generals who command a nation’s armed forces, and businessmen with assets in billions of dollars, are reluctant to accept that politics are moved by the sentiments of the people rather than the influences of the stars and spirits over which they can claim some special control.”
Visualize 3000 extra-judicial executions.
Visualize a bunch of up-country taxi drivers nodding their head that this is effective policy.
Visualize that the rural masses are at once pleased with this policy and demand no accountability on the part of the government.
Multiply this over hundreds of completely untransparent rent-seeking siphonings off of government funds.
Throw in a leader who fashions transforming himself after a democratic election into some very undemocratic demagogue (cf. Mussolini or Lee Kuan Yew, Marcos, Park Chung Hee….etc etc).
The bottom line is what the “people” want is only part of the “democratic” problem, perhaps not even the biggest part.
it would be more accurate to say that the Thaksin led government was the democratic choice of the Thai people overall, including representatives of all classes and groups in the Thai population
disparaging Thaksin disparages the Thai people overall
please if you dont like Thaksin, specify that its your personal opinion and if you really want to claim some broader support, the most you represent is a minority of the Thai people
In case you want to claim that Thaksin and the redshirts popularity might be declining, I wonder if the military’s “sufficiency communities” project was active in Roi Et where the Peua Thai vote increased by 50% over that received in the election of 2007?
Nick is correct that there was support for “Thaksin’s drug war” from all sections of the elite. I think there was a statement of support from the palace at the time. It is to Giles Ungpakorn’s credit that he was against this policy. Did the ex-leftist, ex-1973 students who followed Taksin across from Phalang Dharma into the TRT also protest? At the time what was noticeable was that the highest levels in the drug trade were untouchable. The provincial godfathers who mostly supported the TRT and the men in uniform in the north were never bothered.
The reason that many started to fear Taksin was seeing him appoint relatives and friends to the Thailand’s most important government jobs. The media was being bought by Taksin’s cronies and the signs were that Taksin was building the means to control the country for a lifetime. I think comparison with Pibulsonggram is not out of order and fascist is as good a term as any to describe the periods of Pibulsonggram rule.
Could Sondhi be similar? Quite possible but that is not here and now. Chamlong? More likely to retire to his farm again than become a fascist leader. Interesting today in the Nation interview to see Sondhi reaching out to those in the red shirt who are against powerful corrupt political elites in politics and the military.
Also interesting to see the four people who the Nation points out would be hurt by and end to time limitations on trials for those who flee overseas. Along with Thaksin and Jakrapob it gives us Kamnan Poh and Vatana Asavahame.
Just to make it clear, even if “Thaksin’s drug war” had included killing the big men in this trade, it still wouldn’t have been the right thing to do. Its is still murder. Once the police, especially in the provinces, were given targets abuse was sure follow.
The Man City fans are still talking about Thaksin and it would certainly appear that he is no longer the messiah-
[….]
Let’s hope that the New Mandala red-shirts will also see the error of their ways before too long.
I don’t think anyone here is arguing that Thaksin is a messiah. What some of us are saying is that some of the grievances of the rank-and-file red shirts (their leaders aside) are legitimate. These grievances cannot be simply brushed aside by the powers that be if Thailand is to achieve social peace and sustainable development under a democratic order that respects the rule of law. You’re free to disagree with this point of view, but it’s a point of view many of us support because it’s grounded in logic and the facts (and yes, we have taken into account the fact that Thaksin is no messiah). Unless those facts change, don’t bet on me to see the “error of my ways.”
I’m interested if anyone can point to instances where Abhisit has turned to the supernatural?
I could imagine him watching the US TV series ‘Supernatural’, but cannot personally recall him publicly seeking out the mystics – that could be a factor in his eventual downfall!
(unless of course he has his own private super powerful mystic for guidance and even influence!)
🙂
“Thaksin was and is the choice of the poor….”#35
David Brown, how do you know this ?
I doubt you can use election result to justify such a statement.
When people vote,they are not asked about their “status” in society. I would guess (as I have no proof) that although certain stratas of Thai society might/will favour certain candidates, not every voter in that particular grouping, will vote for the same candidate – that’s democracy.
I would also like to know, by what criteria, do you clasify people as “poor”?
You talk about “unsubstantiated” allegations.
I would say to you sir , you make “unsubstaniated” comments.
Thaksin himself seems to be in little doubt who’s drug war it was, and he is still feeling very pleased with himself about it-
No need to beat a dead horse. Everyone agrees here that Thaksin took responsibility for the drug war, and that in a just world he should be prosecuted and put away for it. But if we’re going to be fair, everyone who had a role in the drug war should be prosecuted for their crimes as well. But I don’t think that’s what this government or the military government was interested in doing, which is probably why there has never been a real investigation of the drug war since.
If anything, the drug war shows that Thaksin was a bad guy, but only marginally worse than the alternatives (yes, a Prime Minister Chamlong or a Prime Minister Sondhi L would have been just as enthusiastic about prosecuting the drug war). It doesn’t show him to be so evil as to have justified a military coup.
Since this is the second New Mandala posting on the subject I think readers may want to read Keyes more extended article on this topic available here: http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/docs/wps/wps06_080.pdf
Keyes frames this class of phenomena in terms of legitimation.
poor giles, an original and lonely voice in a country unwilling to face the facts of its existence. the deterioration of thailand’s politics and public political discourse, not to mention incredibly low standards of media representation and reporting are astounding even by thai standards. nationalism and conservative politics have taken a front seat while people have been swept under the rug, again. blatent interference in public politics by military and civil police have gotten to the point where mass public security is at stake, no longer just fringe elements of extremists type actors with right wing agendas. given the nature of the power structure of and various puppet politiancs that are prancing around the kingdom as stalwart members of a government backed by populist legitimacy and mandate it should be quite some time indeed until thai’s are given the right to choose for themselves again who will rule for them. undoubtedly this will happen only after conservative elements have once again entrenched themselves until they feel certain that they can swindle an election (which they couldn’t do even after a concerted effort by the military and right wing elites last time).
Yes, buying politicians’ loyalty is bad for Thai politics. Where did Thai Rak Thai (and its successors) come from so quickly? Wasn’t it an instant party cut and pasted from several different old style money grubbing parties purchased by Thaksin?
Weren’t many of them more than happy to ally with the military when they saw it as financially rewarding? I seem to recall Samak, as a minister designate in the Suchinda cabinet, shouting down foreign reporters who disagreed with his justification of why the troops had found it necessary to shoot down fleeing unarmed protestors in 1992. Wasn’t Thaksin himself more than happy to do business with the NPKC, not to mention his cozy business deals with the Burmese junta?
many thx for supplying this inspiring paper by Pasuk Phongpaichit and Chris Baker. i’d like to comment on their concluding statement that you quote as:
“… are reluctant to accept that politics are moved by the sentiments of the people rather than the influences of the stars and spirits over which they can claim some special control.”
0) before i begin, here’s a link to christopher kevill’s “modern vedic astrology blog” on apr 17, 2009, “thailand in crisis”, delineating stellar mind climate for the land of smiles.
1) i think i’d state that i do/work with astrology. i do not “believe” in astrology as neither i do “believe” in quantum physics or systems theory. i prefer astrological cosmology as a more holistic approach to “being” than what i call mere “base reductionist fundamentalism”.
*…
2) imho, astrology does not necessarily imply “fortune-telling”…, though it was & it is & it will be used that way: the very same as an ordinary calendar. as the authors point out “real” “fortune-telling” – “mostly” – require some “mediumistic” skills. that is, one can find a good astrologer who’s a bad fortune-teller & vice versa.
*…
3) these latter “mediumistic” or “psychic” skills can be trained; if there’s a potential. the authors speak about “saiyasat” – &, imho, they give it an excellent introductory overview. as they show, “saiyasat” is complex. here, i’d just like to comment that… these “psychic” skills had been called “siddhis” in many “eastern” traditions: so-called “super natural powers”. the authors say:
“Another old Indian belief was that mastery over the self – through ascetic practice
and self control – delivers mastery over nature–the ability to perform supernatural acts. According to some traditions, the Buddha practiced these methods to achieve
enlightenment, but outlawed them as general practice among his followers on grounds they were too dangerous. Yet some carried on this tradition, often in semi-secret sects.”
not only the buddha, other “spiritual” teachers too, condemned the “training of siddhis” as a trap… on the path for full liberation. let me put it this way: people are attracted to the extra-ordinary, the miraculous, power. in deep spirituality, life itself is extra-ordinary, being human among fellow humans is miraculous — & so-called “power” is a necessity for humiliation.
nonetheless…, agreed…, many had been the ones, many are the ones who train attainment of “supernatural powers”. maybe in a couple of years or decades humanity will recognize these potential powers as normal & natural aspects of mind na.
*…
4) having said all that, i’d like to comment on conclusion by pasuk and baker, as you quote it:
“In the end, the survival of these beliefs has a profoundly anti-democratic aspect. Generals who command a nation’s armed forces, and businessmen with assets in billions of dollars, are reluctant to accept that politics are moved by the sentiments of the people rather than the influences of the stars and spirits over which they can claim some special control.”
4a) no, to “the survival of these beliefs has a profoundly anti-democratic aspect.”
4a1) to call sth a “belief” in western mind hemisphere implies its inferiority.
4a2) so, _if_ you begin a sentence with calling something a “belief”… — i wonder where your judgement will lead you to? oooh, what a surprise… in this case to a “profoundly anti-democratic aspect” 😉
4b) imho, the authors try — & fail — to mix different operating systems [no, not in strict technical terms] of mind & culture. i might speak of different categories. i might evoke “cultural diversity” but even this term has become shallow
*…
5) authors go on, saying “… are reluctant to accept that politics are moved by the sentiments of the people rather than the influences of the stars and spirits over which they can claim some special control.”
5a) well, this just shows that pasuk and baker made an inspiring examination, a “scientific” one, yes, but in the end they just proof their very own conceptual limitations. personally i call that “ignorance of cultural superiority complex” — but you don’t have to agree with me. that is, so-called “superior cultures [: “ruling” by economic & military force]” are handicapped by ignorance of the underlying assumptions of their specific “weltanschauung” na. ok?
5b) i just would like to point out saying “that politics are moved by the sentiments of the people” for authors seem to imply a contradicition to “the influences of the stars and spirits”. in astrological terms i’d say… — i’m sorry, you got causation wrong, it’s the other way. so-called “sentiments of the people” are indeed influenced — by the stars & the spirits. just go to your local hospital or police station & inquire some statistical data on “full moon” events. don’t believe me — just do it.
5c) a critical point is saying (people in power using astrology & magic) “claim some special control”.
5c1) well, first of all… it’s a rich & vital tradition that is deeply rooted in a holistic experience of being. it seems this very peculiar kind of holistic experience is common to so-called indigenous people all around the globe. there’s more, i stop.
5c2) again, i’m sorry, imho, authors got it wrong. nobody who’s advanced in “siddhi”-training, nobody who’s monk-like into purification of mind, nobody who’s offering herself/himself for “mediumistic encounters”, nobody who’s a decent fortune teller, nobody who’s skilled in astrology — would “claim some special control”. again, actually, it’s the other way round: one has to give up indulgence in motions of mind/heart na.
5c2I) well, of course, the so-called “black magic” guys do 😉
5c3) as said before… _as it is_ a “vital” tradition, soil for heart/mind/culture, one should _not_ be surprised that “worldly leaders” now & then try to “gain” by accessing “specialized knowledge”. or “competitive intelligence” 😉
5c3I) but, imho, it’s “funny” to see… that authors indeed fall into assumption that “access to specialized knowledge” implies an advantage in exercising some “special control”. ooh… it sounds like us military “C2I” [Command, Control, Intelligence].
5d) greek culture once termed a word: “hubris”
*…
6) pls allow me to _not_ argue “for” astrology. in 2007 richard tarnass published “cosmos & psyche”. that’s about 20 years work of research, doubt, validation. 500 pages, bibliography. i don’t want to call it a “masterpiece” in “astrological sciences” — but i guess it’s ok to call it a “milestone” in mapping emerging paradigm shift.
*…
pls excuse my limited english. thx 4 ur time & attention na.
What exactly does it mean to be a “Buddhist” rather than an “Animist”? Moreover, how does one segregate out the animist and Buddhist dimensions of the institution or any individual member of it?
The simple fact of the matter is that ever since the beginning of the historical record in India, there is irrefutable evidence that Buddhists – lay and monastic, elites and the masses – believed in, propitiated and sought the assistance of various supramundane agents and forces (local spirits, more august gods, sacrally infused statues and natural objects like mountains, etc) in the pursuit of both worldly benefits in this life and a better rebirth in future lives. And these actions found ample sanction and legitimation in scriptures, monastic norms and traditional practices. Is it any surprise then, that similar ideas and practices would be found across the Buddhist world, in Thailand just like elsewhere?
In this sense, there is nothing fundamentally unusual about the activities Pasuk and Baker describe. None the less, one could profitably carry out, although few ever have, an investigation of the rise and fall of the popularity and influence of particular beliefs, practices, and actors within this enduring set of concerns, with an eye to understanding how larger historical and political economic changes have shaped these changes.
The notion that there has ever existed a ‘pure’ Buddhism is a dream. And that sort of imagining simply betrays the influence of modernist Western (and Protestant) presumptions that ‘religion’ is sharply distinct from ‘economics’, ‘politics’ and the material world. These presumptions have been projected backwards repeatedly and produced considerable confusion about the historical character and heritage of Buddhism (and other religions) ever since the 19th century rise in the ‘science of religion’.
For a nice, brief book that explores this and many other such fallacies with regards to Buddhism, I would suggest you look at “Unmasking Buddhism” by Bernard Faure. He presents quite concisely a diversity of ways in which contemporary academic scholarship on Buddhism undermines a range of common popular misperceptions of the religion.
PS – Do the majority of American Christians need to give up their belief in angels to become good democratic citizens?
To Piette,
(caveat – I have no personal grudge against any politician – just see them as what they are)
While I do not disagree with you on Rafidah capabilities, I would also not give her too much on the efficiency of the immigration dept. In my view, the most efficient dept in Malaysia now is the immigration dept – this refers to service for malaysians – not necessary for expats etc etc.
Example – getting a passport renewal now takes about two (2) hours if one uses the machine at the dept. 24 hours if you apply at the counter.
The “success” of Malaysia can be partly attributed to BN (umno) but mostly to petroleum. From 1974-1976 when malaysia nationalised its oil resource, the govt coffers got a nice boost, allowing it to be inefficient and still have development.
However, in comparision to Singapore / Taiwan Korea etc, Malaysian development falls far short, given its resources. Up till the 80s, Singapore was on par with Malaysia and Taiwan was well behind. IN the early 80s, Taiwan as a cheap country to visit for Malaysians. When I was visiting there, the Taiwanese were marvelling at how wealthy Malaysia was, and many wanted to go to malaysia to work (for the then better pay) There is no need to even discuss Singapore S$1 = RM$2.4 says it all.
Does croynism exist everywhere – yes. Does it create inefficiency – yes, but in Malaysia, especially during the last 10 years of Mahathir tenure, it was way too excessive.
I can quote many examples of extreme corruption, some from personal experience and some second hand from close friends – but this article is not about that.
The question is – Can najib survive? Yes, things have not changed, and Najib has learned from both mahathir and Badawi. badawi was too soft and not ruthless enough. mahathir was ruthless in getting rid of opponents, both outside and inside of UMNO. Najib is relatively ruthless, but does not have the same support or clout as Mahathir had. Given time, he will get those.
However, I believe Badawi will eventually be remember as the PM that opened up malaysian politics by allowing dissent OR be remembered as the PM that destroyed malaysia for the same reason. Only time will tell
“meanwhile, please refrain from filling our inboxes with too much drivel about how wonderful the world would be if the rich could keep the poor under their feet”
I have the perfect solution for you. Kindly see below:
р╕Др╕│р╕зр╣Ир╕▓ “р╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ър╣Бр╕гр╕Б” р╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╕Хр╕гр╕З р╕бр╕╕р╕бр╕Ър╕Щр╕Вр╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕кр╕╕р╕Ф (upper right hand corner) р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕лр╕Щр╣Йр╕▓
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Student massacres
р╕Вр╕нр╕Ър╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╕бр╕▓р╕Бр╕Др╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕нр╕▓р╕Ир╕▓р╕гр╕вр╣М р╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Гр╕Ир╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕зр╕Др╕гр╕▒р╕Ъ р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Фр╕▓р╕зр╕Щр╣Мр╣Вр╕лр╕ер╕Фр╕бр╕▓р╣Ар╕лр╣Зр╕Щр╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╕Кр╕▒р╕Фр╣Ар╕Ир╕Щ
р╣Др╕зр╣Йр╕Ьр╕бр╕бр╕╡р╣Вр╕нр╕Бр╕▓р╕кр╣Др╕Ыр╕Др╣Йр╕Щр╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Зр╕кр╕╖р╕нр╕Юр╕┤р╕бр╕Юр╣Мр╕Ир╕░р╕кр╕▒р╕Зр╣Ар╕Бр╕Хр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Цр╕╡р╣Ир╕Цр╣Йр╕зр╕Щр╕нр╕╡р╕Бр╕Чр╕╡р╕Др╕гр╕▒р╕Ъ
р╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╣Др╕гр╕Бр╣Зр╕Хр╕▓р╕бр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕бр╕▓р╕гр╣Ир╕зр╕бр╣Ар╕кр╕╡р╕вр╕Фр╕▓р╕вр╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕вр╕Др╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕лр╕нр╕кр╕бр╕╕р╕Фр╣Бр╕лр╣Ир╕Зр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Ар╕Бр╣Зр╕Ър╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕кр╕│р╕Др╕▒р╕Нр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Др╕зр╕гр╕Ир╕░р╕бр╕╡
р╕Вр╕Щр╕▓р╕Фр╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Зр╕кр╕╖р╕нр╕Вр╕нр╕З р╣Бр╕ор╕гр╕╡р╣И р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕вр╕▒р╕Зр╕бр╕╡р╣Ар╕ер╕в р╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕зр╕Чр╕│р╣Др╕бр╕гр╕╣р╕Ыр╣Бр╕Др╣Ир╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╣Ар╕Бр╣Зр╕Ър╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Др╕Фр╣Й р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕зр╕Ьр╕бр╕Др╣Йр╕Щр╣Бр╕Др╕Хр╕▓р╕ер╕нр╕Бр╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕лр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕кр╕бр╕╕р╕Фр╣Бр╕лр╣Ир╕Зр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Зр╣Др╕Чр╕в р╕бр╕╡р╕Щр╕┤р╕Хр╕вр╕кр╕▓р╕гр╕лр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ър╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Вр╕▓р╣Гр╕кр╣Ир╕Вр╣Йр╕нр╕бр╕╣р╕ер╕Юр╕ер╕▓р╕Фр╕лр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╕нр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕ер╕вр╕Др╕гр╕▒р╕Ъ р╕Бр╣Зр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕гр╕╣р╣Йр╕Ир╕░р╕Кр╣Ир╕зр╕вр╕вр╕▒р╕Зр╣Др╕Зр╣Др╕Фр╣Й
The crushing of the Red Shirts
tettyan #120
What are the grievances of the rank and file red shirts? Apart from whitewashing Thaksin, giving him his money back and bringing him home to be a vengeful PM, it is not clear what these are?
The crisis in Northern Rakhine State
Those message boards on the Irrawaddy are truly disturbing, but not so surprising. Many of my Burmese friends – people I would normally consider thoughtful and mild-mannered – hold similar views.
Pasuk and Baker on “spirits, stars and Thai politics”
Who is the politician most likely not to use astrology?
Abhisit.
Who is the politician that Isan folk seem not to be too impressed with nowadays?
Abhisit.
Who are the biggest devotees of astrology and magic?
The rural masses, the swing vote.
As for this quote:
“In the end, the survival of these beliefs has a profoundly anti-democratic aspect. Generals who command a nation’s armed forces, and businessmen with assets in billions of dollars, are reluctant to accept that politics are moved by the sentiments of the people rather than the influences of the stars and spirits over which they can claim some special control.”
Visualize 3000 extra-judicial executions.
Visualize a bunch of up-country taxi drivers nodding their head that this is effective policy.
Visualize that the rural masses are at once pleased with this policy and demand no accountability on the part of the government.
Multiply this over hundreds of completely untransparent rent-seeking siphonings off of government funds.
Throw in a leader who fashions transforming himself after a democratic election into some very undemocratic demagogue (cf. Mussolini or Lee Kuan Yew, Marcos, Park Chung Hee….etc etc).
The bottom line is what the “people” want is only part of the “democratic” problem, perhaps not even the biggest part.
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
I agree I use the term poor loosely…
it would be more accurate to say that the Thaksin led government was the democratic choice of the Thai people overall, including representatives of all classes and groups in the Thai population
disparaging Thaksin disparages the Thai people overall
please if you dont like Thaksin, specify that its your personal opinion and if you really want to claim some broader support, the most you represent is a minority of the Thai people
In case you want to claim that Thaksin and the redshirts popularity might be declining, I wonder if the military’s “sufficiency communities” project was active in Roi Et where the Peua Thai vote increased by 50% over that received in the election of 2007?
Student massacres
Sorry. The link to download “Daily News 22 October 1976” at http://www.mediafire.com I gave above doesn’t work.
Please try a new one here:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?nziw1imn5mk
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Nick Nostitz #111
Nick is correct that there was support for “Thaksin’s drug war” from all sections of the elite. I think there was a statement of support from the palace at the time. It is to Giles Ungpakorn’s credit that he was against this policy. Did the ex-leftist, ex-1973 students who followed Taksin across from Phalang Dharma into the TRT also protest? At the time what was noticeable was that the highest levels in the drug trade were untouchable. The provincial godfathers who mostly supported the TRT and the men in uniform in the north were never bothered.
The reason that many started to fear Taksin was seeing him appoint relatives and friends to the Thailand’s most important government jobs. The media was being bought by Taksin’s cronies and the signs were that Taksin was building the means to control the country for a lifetime. I think comparison with Pibulsonggram is not out of order and fascist is as good a term as any to describe the periods of Pibulsonggram rule.
Could Sondhi be similar? Quite possible but that is not here and now. Chamlong? More likely to retire to his farm again than become a fascist leader. Interesting today in the Nation interview to see Sondhi reaching out to those in the red shirt who are against powerful corrupt political elites in politics and the military.
Also interesting to see the four people who the Nation points out would be hurt by and end to time limitations on trials for those who flee overseas. Along with Thaksin and Jakrapob it gives us Kamnan Poh and Vatana Asavahame.
Just to make it clear, even if “Thaksin’s drug war” had included killing the big men in this trade, it still wouldn’t have been the right thing to do. Its is still murder. Once the police, especially in the provinces, were given targets abuse was sure follow.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
The Man City fans are still talking about Thaksin and it would certainly appear that he is no longer the messiah-
[….]
Let’s hope that the New Mandala red-shirts will also see the error of their ways before too long.
I don’t think anyone here is arguing that Thaksin is a messiah. What some of us are saying is that some of the grievances of the rank-and-file red shirts (their leaders aside) are legitimate. These grievances cannot be simply brushed aside by the powers that be if Thailand is to achieve social peace and sustainable development under a democratic order that respects the rule of law. You’re free to disagree with this point of view, but it’s a point of view many of us support because it’s grounded in logic and the facts (and yes, we have taken into account the fact that Thaksin is no messiah). Unless those facts change, don’t bet on me to see the “error of my ways.”
Pasuk and Baker on “spirits, stars and Thai politics”
I’m interested if anyone can point to instances where Abhisit has turned to the supernatural?
I could imagine him watching the US TV series ‘Supernatural’, but cannot personally recall him publicly seeking out the mystics – that could be a factor in his eventual downfall!
(unless of course he has his own private super powerful mystic for guidance and even influence!)
🙂
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
“Thaksin was and is the choice of the poor….”#35
David Brown, how do you know this ?
I doubt you can use election result to justify such a statement.
When people vote,they are not asked about their “status” in society. I would guess (as I have no proof) that although certain stratas of Thai society might/will favour certain candidates, not every voter in that particular grouping, will vote for the same candidate – that’s democracy.
I would also like to know, by what criteria, do you clasify people as “poor”?
You talk about “unsubstantiated” allegations.
I would say to you sir , you make “unsubstaniated” comments.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
You can’t hide your color as well. Among the reds there are good and bad as well. Do you sumpathize to the “no color” Thais?
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Thaksin himself seems to be in little doubt who’s drug war it was, and he is still feeling very pleased with himself about it-
No need to beat a dead horse. Everyone agrees here that Thaksin took responsibility for the drug war, and that in a just world he should be prosecuted and put away for it. But if we’re going to be fair, everyone who had a role in the drug war should be prosecuted for their crimes as well. But I don’t think that’s what this government or the military government was interested in doing, which is probably why there has never been a real investigation of the drug war since.
If anything, the drug war shows that Thaksin was a bad guy, but only marginally worse than the alternatives (yes, a Prime Minister Chamlong or a Prime Minister Sondhi L would have been just as enthusiastic about prosecuting the drug war). It doesn’t show him to be so evil as to have justified a military coup.
Pasuk and Baker on “spirits, stars and Thai politics”
Since this is the second New Mandala posting on the subject I think readers may want to read Keyes more extended article on this topic available here:
http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/docs/wps/wps06_080.pdf
Keyes frames this class of phenomena in terms of legitimation.
Bob
Ji Ungpakorn on Thailand’s second coup
poor giles, an original and lonely voice in a country unwilling to face the facts of its existence. the deterioration of thailand’s politics and public political discourse, not to mention incredibly low standards of media representation and reporting are astounding even by thai standards. nationalism and conservative politics have taken a front seat while people have been swept under the rug, again. blatent interference in public politics by military and civil police have gotten to the point where mass public security is at stake, no longer just fringe elements of extremists type actors with right wing agendas. given the nature of the power structure of and various puppet politiancs that are prancing around the kingdom as stalwart members of a government backed by populist legitimacy and mandate it should be quite some time indeed until thai’s are given the right to choose for themselves again who will rule for them. undoubtedly this will happen only after conservative elements have once again entrenched themselves until they feel certain that they can swindle an election (which they couldn’t do even after a concerted effort by the military and right wing elites last time).
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
Yes, buying politicians’ loyalty is bad for Thai politics. Where did Thai Rak Thai (and its successors) come from so quickly? Wasn’t it an instant party cut and pasted from several different old style money grubbing parties purchased by Thaksin?
Weren’t many of them more than happy to ally with the military when they saw it as financially rewarding? I seem to recall Samak, as a minister designate in the Suchinda cabinet, shouting down foreign reporters who disagreed with his justification of why the troops had found it necessary to shoot down fleeing unarmed protestors in 1992. Wasn’t Thaksin himself more than happy to do business with the NPKC, not to mention his cozy business deals with the Burmese junta?
Pasuk and Baker on “spirits, stars and Thai politics”
dear Nick,
many thx for supplying this inspiring paper by Pasuk Phongpaichit and Chris Baker. i’d like to comment on their concluding statement that you quote as:
“… are reluctant to accept that politics are moved by the sentiments of the people rather than the influences of the stars and spirits over which they can claim some special control.”
0) before i begin, here’s a link to christopher kevill’s “modern vedic astrology blog” on apr 17, 2009, “thailand in crisis”, delineating stellar mind climate for the land of smiles.
http://modernvedicastrology.blogspot.com/2009/04/thailand-in-crisis.html
*…
1) i think i’d state that i do/work with astrology. i do not “believe” in astrology as neither i do “believe” in quantum physics or systems theory. i prefer astrological cosmology as a more holistic approach to “being” than what i call mere “base reductionist fundamentalism”.
*…
2) imho, astrology does not necessarily imply “fortune-telling”…, though it was & it is & it will be used that way: the very same as an ordinary calendar. as the authors point out “real” “fortune-telling” – “mostly” – require some “mediumistic” skills. that is, one can find a good astrologer who’s a bad fortune-teller & vice versa.
*…
3) these latter “mediumistic” or “psychic” skills can be trained; if there’s a potential. the authors speak about “saiyasat” – &, imho, they give it an excellent introductory overview. as they show, “saiyasat” is complex. here, i’d just like to comment that… these “psychic” skills had been called “siddhis” in many “eastern” traditions: so-called “super natural powers”. the authors say:
“Another old Indian belief was that mastery over the self – through ascetic practice
and self control – delivers mastery over nature–the ability to perform supernatural acts. According to some traditions, the Buddha practiced these methods to achieve
enlightenment, but outlawed them as general practice among his followers on grounds they were too dangerous. Yet some carried on this tradition, often in semi-secret sects.”
not only the buddha, other “spiritual” teachers too, condemned the “training of siddhis” as a trap… on the path for full liberation. let me put it this way: people are attracted to the extra-ordinary, the miraculous, power. in deep spirituality, life itself is extra-ordinary, being human among fellow humans is miraculous — & so-called “power” is a necessity for humiliation.
nonetheless…, agreed…, many had been the ones, many are the ones who train attainment of “supernatural powers”. maybe in a couple of years or decades humanity will recognize these potential powers as normal & natural aspects of mind na.
*…
4) having said all that, i’d like to comment on conclusion by pasuk and baker, as you quote it:
“In the end, the survival of these beliefs has a profoundly anti-democratic aspect. Generals who command a nation’s armed forces, and businessmen with assets in billions of dollars, are reluctant to accept that politics are moved by the sentiments of the people rather than the influences of the stars and spirits over which they can claim some special control.”
4a) no, to “the survival of these beliefs has a profoundly anti-democratic aspect.”
4a1) to call sth a “belief” in western mind hemisphere implies its inferiority.
4a2) so, _if_ you begin a sentence with calling something a “belief”… — i wonder where your judgement will lead you to? oooh, what a surprise… in this case to a “profoundly anti-democratic aspect” 😉
4b) imho, the authors try — & fail — to mix different operating systems [no, not in strict technical terms] of mind & culture. i might speak of different categories. i might evoke “cultural diversity” but even this term has become shallow
*…
5) authors go on, saying “… are reluctant to accept that politics are moved by the sentiments of the people rather than the influences of the stars and spirits over which they can claim some special control.”
5a) well, this just shows that pasuk and baker made an inspiring examination, a “scientific” one, yes, but in the end they just proof their very own conceptual limitations. personally i call that “ignorance of cultural superiority complex” — but you don’t have to agree with me. that is, so-called “superior cultures [: “ruling” by economic & military force]” are handicapped by ignorance of the underlying assumptions of their specific “weltanschauung” na. ok?
5b) i just would like to point out saying “that politics are moved by the sentiments of the people” for authors seem to imply a contradicition to “the influences of the stars and spirits”. in astrological terms i’d say… — i’m sorry, you got causation wrong, it’s the other way. so-called “sentiments of the people” are indeed influenced — by the stars & the spirits. just go to your local hospital or police station & inquire some statistical data on “full moon” events. don’t believe me — just do it.
5c) a critical point is saying (people in power using astrology & magic) “claim some special control”.
5c1) well, first of all… it’s a rich & vital tradition that is deeply rooted in a holistic experience of being. it seems this very peculiar kind of holistic experience is common to so-called indigenous people all around the globe. there’s more, i stop.
5c2) again, i’m sorry, imho, authors got it wrong. nobody who’s advanced in “siddhi”-training, nobody who’s monk-like into purification of mind, nobody who’s offering herself/himself for “mediumistic encounters”, nobody who’s a decent fortune teller, nobody who’s skilled in astrology — would “claim some special control”. again, actually, it’s the other way round: one has to give up indulgence in motions of mind/heart na.
5c2I) well, of course, the so-called “black magic” guys do 😉
5c3) as said before… _as it is_ a “vital” tradition, soil for heart/mind/culture, one should _not_ be surprised that “worldly leaders” now & then try to “gain” by accessing “specialized knowledge”. or “competitive intelligence” 😉
5c3I) but, imho, it’s “funny” to see… that authors indeed fall into assumption that “access to specialized knowledge” implies an advantage in exercising some “special control”. ooh… it sounds like us military “C2I” [Command, Control, Intelligence].
5d) greek culture once termed a word: “hubris”
*…
6) pls allow me to _not_ argue “for” astrology. in 2007 richard tarnass published “cosmos & psyche”. that’s about 20 years work of research, doubt, validation. 500 pages, bibliography. i don’t want to call it a “masterpiece” in “astrological sciences” — but i guess it’s ok to call it a “milestone” in mapping emerging paradigm shift.
*…
pls excuse my limited english. thx 4 ur time & attention na.
Pasuk and Baker on “spirits, stars and Thai politics”
Dear Sidh,
What exactly does it mean to be a “Buddhist” rather than an “Animist”? Moreover, how does one segregate out the animist and Buddhist dimensions of the institution or any individual member of it?
The simple fact of the matter is that ever since the beginning of the historical record in India, there is irrefutable evidence that Buddhists – lay and monastic, elites and the masses – believed in, propitiated and sought the assistance of various supramundane agents and forces (local spirits, more august gods, sacrally infused statues and natural objects like mountains, etc) in the pursuit of both worldly benefits in this life and a better rebirth in future lives. And these actions found ample sanction and legitimation in scriptures, monastic norms and traditional practices. Is it any surprise then, that similar ideas and practices would be found across the Buddhist world, in Thailand just like elsewhere?
In this sense, there is nothing fundamentally unusual about the activities Pasuk and Baker describe. None the less, one could profitably carry out, although few ever have, an investigation of the rise and fall of the popularity and influence of particular beliefs, practices, and actors within this enduring set of concerns, with an eye to understanding how larger historical and political economic changes have shaped these changes.
The notion that there has ever existed a ‘pure’ Buddhism is a dream. And that sort of imagining simply betrays the influence of modernist Western (and Protestant) presumptions that ‘religion’ is sharply distinct from ‘economics’, ‘politics’ and the material world. These presumptions have been projected backwards repeatedly and produced considerable confusion about the historical character and heritage of Buddhism (and other religions) ever since the 19th century rise in the ‘science of religion’.
For a nice, brief book that explores this and many other such fallacies with regards to Buddhism, I would suggest you look at “Unmasking Buddhism” by Bernard Faure. He presents quite concisely a diversity of ways in which contemporary academic scholarship on Buddhism undermines a range of common popular misperceptions of the religion.
PS – Do the majority of American Christians need to give up their belief in angels to become good democratic citizens?
The survival of Najib and UMNO
To Piette,
(caveat – I have no personal grudge against any politician – just see them as what they are)
While I do not disagree with you on Rafidah capabilities, I would also not give her too much on the efficiency of the immigration dept. In my view, the most efficient dept in Malaysia now is the immigration dept – this refers to service for malaysians – not necessary for expats etc etc.
Example – getting a passport renewal now takes about two (2) hours if one uses the machine at the dept. 24 hours if you apply at the counter.
The “success” of Malaysia can be partly attributed to BN (umno) but mostly to petroleum. From 1974-1976 when malaysia nationalised its oil resource, the govt coffers got a nice boost, allowing it to be inefficient and still have development.
However, in comparision to Singapore / Taiwan Korea etc, Malaysian development falls far short, given its resources. Up till the 80s, Singapore was on par with Malaysia and Taiwan was well behind. IN the early 80s, Taiwan as a cheap country to visit for Malaysians. When I was visiting there, the Taiwanese were marvelling at how wealthy Malaysia was, and many wanted to go to malaysia to work (for the then better pay) There is no need to even discuss Singapore S$1 = RM$2.4 says it all.
Does croynism exist everywhere – yes. Does it create inefficiency – yes, but in Malaysia, especially during the last 10 years of Mahathir tenure, it was way too excessive.
I can quote many examples of extreme corruption, some from personal experience and some second hand from close friends – but this article is not about that.
The question is – Can najib survive? Yes, things have not changed, and Najib has learned from both mahathir and Badawi. badawi was too soft and not ruthless enough. mahathir was ruthless in getting rid of opponents, both outside and inside of UMNO. Najib is relatively ruthless, but does not have the same support or clout as Mahathir had. Given time, he will get those.
However, I believe Badawi will eventually be remember as the PM that opened up malaysian politics by allowing dissent OR be remembered as the PM that destroyed malaysia for the same reason. Only time will tell
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
David Brown #32
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Student massacres
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р╕гр╕╣р╕Ыр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ьр╕бр╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╣Др╕зр╣Йр╕Щр╕╡р╣Й р╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Бр╕нр╕Ър╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕в 4 р╕гр╕╣р╕Ыр╕Щр╕░р╕Др╕гр╕▒р╕Ъ 2 р╕гр╕╣р╕Ы р╕Цр╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╣Ар╕Хр╣Зр╕бр╕Чр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕лр╕Щр╣Йр╕▓ р╕нр╕╡р╕Б 2 р╕гр╕╣р╕Ы р╕Цр╣Ир╕▓р╕в р╣Ар╕Йр╕Юр╕▓р╕░р╕кр╣Ир╕зр╕Щ
р╕Др╕│р╕зр╣Ир╕▓ “р╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ър╣Бр╕гр╕Б” р╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╕Хр╕гр╕З р╕бр╕╕р╕бр╕Ър╕Щр╕Вр╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕кр╕╕р╕Ф (upper right hand corner) р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕лр╕Щр╣Йр╕▓
р╕Фр╕╣р╕Чр╕╡р╣И р╕Юр╕▓р╕Фр╕лр╕▒р╕зр╕Вр╣Ир╕▓р╕з р╕Ър╕Щр╕кр╕╕р╕Фр╕Щр╕░р╕Др╕гр╕▒р╕Ъ
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р╕кр╕╕р╕Фр╕Др╕│р╕зр╣Ир╕▓ “р╕ер╕│р╕Ыр╕▓р╕З” р╕Ир╕░р╣Ар╕лр╣Зр╕Щ р╕Хр╕▒р╕зр╕лр╕Щр╕▒р╕Зр╕кр╕╖р╕нр╣Ар╕ер╣Зр╕Бр╣Ж “р╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ър╣Бр╕гр╕Б” р╕Юр╕гр╣Йр╕нр╕б р╕Фр╕▓р╕з р╣Ар╕ер╣Зр╕Бр╣Ж 1 р╕Фр╕зр╕З р╕Юр╕┤р╕бр╕Юр╣Мр╕Хр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕Йр╕▓р╕Бр╕Хр╕┤р╕Фр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕Др╕│р╕зр╣Ир╕▓ “р╕ер╕│р╕Ыр╕▓р╕З”
р╣Бр╕кр╕Фр╕Зр╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ър╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ьр╕бр╕бр╕╡ р╕нр╕нр╕Бр╕бр╕▓р╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Ър╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Юр╕др╕лр╕▒р╕кр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 21 р╕Хр╕╕р╕ер╕▓р╕Др╕б р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕Юр╕┤р╕бр╕Юр╣Мр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕зр╣Ир╕▓ “р╕ир╕╕р╕Бр╕гр╣Мр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 22 р╕Хр╕╕р╕ер╕▓р╕Др╕б” р╣Ар╕Юр╕гр╕▓р╕░р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щ “р╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ър╣Бр╕гр╕Б”
р╕ер╕нр╕Зр╕Фр╕╣р╣Ар╕Ыр╕гр╕╡р╕вр╕Ър╣Ар╕Чр╕╡р╕вр╕Ър╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ър╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Др╕╕р╕У “р╣Ар╕Фр╣Зр╕Бр╕Кр╕▓р╕вр╕Др╕┤р╕бр╕лр╕▒р╕Щр╕Хр╣М” р╕Цр╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╕бр╕▓р╣Гр╕лр╣Йр╕Фр╕╣р╕Бр╣Ир╕нр╕Щр╕лр╕Щр╣Йр╕▓р╕Щр╕╡р╣Й р╕Щр╣Ир╕▓р╕Ир╕░р╕бр╕╡р╕Др╕│р╕зр╣Ир╕▓ “р╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ър╕лр╕ер╕▒р╕З” р╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╕Хр╕гр╕Зр╕Ир╕╕р╕Фр╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕зр╕Бр╕▒р╕Щ
р╕Ыр╕▒р╕Нр╕лр╕▓р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕кр╕нр╕З р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Цр╕▓р╕бр╕бр╕▓ р╕Щр╕╡р╣Ир╣Бр╕лр╕ер╕░р╕Др╕гр╕▒р╕Ъ р╕Ыр╕▒р╕Нр╕лр╕▓р╣Гр╕лр╕Нр╣И р╕кр╕│р╕лр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Др╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╕кр╕Щр╣Гр╕Ир╕гр╕▓р╕вр╕ер╕░р╣Ар╕нр╕╡р╕вр╕Ф р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╣Ар╕гр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ьр╕б frustrated р╕бр╕▓р╕Бр╣Ж р╣Ар╕зр╕ер╕▓р╣Др╕Ыр╕Др╣Йр╕Щр╕лр╕нр╕кр╕бр╕╕р╕Фр╣Бр╕лр╣Ир╕Зр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤ р╣Гр╕Кр╣Йр╣Ар╕зр╕ер╕▓р╕Юр╕нр╕кр╕бр╕Др╕зр╕г р╕Бр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Ьр╕бр╕Ир╕░р╕Юр╕Ър╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Ир╕гр╕┤р╕Зр╣Ар╕гр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Зр╕Щр╕╡р╣Й р╕Др╕╖р╕н р╕лр╕нр╕кр╕бр╕╕р╕Фр╣Бр╕лр╣Ир╕Зр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤ р╕Ир╕░р╣Ар╕Бр╣Зр╕Ър╣Ар╕Йр╕Юр╕▓р╕░ “р╕Бр╕гр╕нр╕Ъ” р╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕зр╣Ар╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щ р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╣Ар╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ьр╕бр╣Ар╕Др╕вр╕Фр╕╣р╣Бр╕Ър╕Ър╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕Чр╕╕р╕Бр╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ъ р╕Фр╕╣р╣Ар╕лр╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Щ р╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕Зр╕Щр╣Йр╕нр╕в р╣Ар╕Вр╕▓р╕Ир╕░ “р╕Др╕Зр╣Ар╕кр╣Йр╕Щр╕Др╕Зр╕зр╕▓” р╕Др╕╖р╕н р╕Цр╣Йр╕▓р╣Ар╕Бр╣Зр╕Ъ “р╕Бр╕гр╕нр╕Ър╣Бр╕гр╕Б” р╕Бр╣Зр╕Ир╕░р╣Ар╕Бр╣Зр╕Ър╣Ар╕Йр╕Юр╕▓р╕░ “р╕Бр╕гр╕нр╕Ър╣Бр╕гр╕Б” р╕Чр╕╕р╕Бр╕зр╕▒р╕Щ
р╕Чр╕╡р╕Щр╕╡р╣Й р╕бр╕▒р╕Щр╣Ар╕Бр╕┤р╕Фр╕Ыр╕▒р╕Нр╕лр╕▓ р╕Фр╕▒р╕Зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╕Цр╕▓р╕бр╕бр╕▓ р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Ьр╕бр╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕Юр╕╣р╕Фр╣Др╕Ыр╕Ър╣Йр╕▓р╕Зр╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕Зр╕Ър╕Щ р╕Др╕╖р╕н р╕Цр╣Йр╕▓р╣Гр╕Щр╕Бр╕гр╕Ур╕╡р╕кр╕│р╕Др╕▒р╕Нр╣Ж р╕нр╕вр╣Ир╕▓р╕З 6 р╕Хр╕╕р╕ер╕▓
р╕Др╕╖р╕н р╕Фр╕▒р╕Зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Др╕Зр╕Чр╕гр╕▓р╕Ър╕зр╣Ир╕▓ р╣Гр╕Щр╕Ър╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 5 р╕Хр╕╕р╕ер╕▓р╕Др╕б “р╕Фр╕▓р╕зр╕кр╕вр╕▓р╕б” р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕Хр╕╡р╕Юр╕┤р╕бр╕Юр╣Мр╕ар╕▓р╕Ю “р╣Бр╕Вр╕зр╕Щр╕Др╕нр╕Яр╣Йр╕▓р╕Кр╕▓р╕в” р╕нр╕нр╕Бр╣Ар╕Ьр╕вр╣Бр╕Юр╕гр╣Ир╕Чр╕▒р╣Ир╕зр╕Бр╕гр╕╕р╕Зр╣Ар╕Чр╕Ю р╕Бр╕ер╕▓р╕вр╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щ “р╕Кр╕Щр╕зр╕Щ” р╕Щр╕│р╣Др╕Ыр╕кр╕╣р╣И р╕Бр╕гр╕Ур╕╡ 6 р╕Хр╕╕р╕ер╕▓
р╕Чр╕╡р╕Щр╕╡р╣Й р╕лр╕нр╕кр╕бр╕╕р╕Фр╣Бр╕лр╣Ир╕Зр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤р╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щ р╕бр╕╡ “р╕Фр╕▓р╕зр╕кр╕вр╕▓р╕б” р╣Ар╕Йр╕Юр╕▓р╕░ “р╕Бр╕гр╕нр╕Ъ” р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕нр╕нр╕Бр╕Хр╕нр╕Щр╣Ар╕Кр╣Йр╕▓р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕ер╕░р╕зр╕▒р╕Щ р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕бр╕╡ “р╕Бр╕гр╕нр╕Ъ” р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕нр╕нр╕Бр╕Хр╕нр╕Щр╕Ър╣Ир╕▓р╕в р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕ер╕░р╕зр╕▒р╕Щ
р╕Щр╕▒р╣Ир╕Щр╕Др╕╖р╕н р╕Ир╕░р╕бр╕╡р╣Ар╕Йр╕Юр╕▓р╕░р╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ър╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕нр╕нр╕Бр╕бр╕▓р╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╣Ар╕Кр╣Йр╕▓р╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 5 р╕Хр╕╕р╕ер╕▓р╕Др╕б р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕бр╕╡р╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ър╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕нр╕нр╕Бр╣Ар╕бр╕╖р╣Ир╕н р╕Ър╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 5 р╕Хр╕╕р╕ер╕▓р╕Др╕б (р╕Лр╕╢р╣Ир╕Зр╕Хр╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Юр╕┤р╕бр╕Юр╣Мр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И “6 р╕Хр╕╕р╕ер╕▓р╕Др╕б” р╣Ар╕Юр╕гр╕▓р╕░р╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щ “р╕Бр╕гр╕нр╕Ър╣Бр╕гр╕Б” р╕лр╕гр╕╖р╕н “р╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ър╕Ър╣Ир╕▓р╕в”)
р╕Фр╕▒р╕Зр╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щ р╕Чр╕╕р╕Бр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Щр╕╡р╣Й р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕бр╕╡р╣Гр╕Др╕г р╕бр╕╡ “р╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕зр╕▒р╕Хр╕┤р╕ир╕▓р╕кр╕Хр╕гр╣М” р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╕Хр╕▒р╕зр╕Ир╕╕р╕Фр╕Кр╕Щр╕зр╕Щ р╣Ар╕лр╕Хр╕╕р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ур╣Мр╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щр╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕з (р╣Ар╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Ьр╕бр╕Чр╕гр╕▓р╕Ъ р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╣Ар╕Др╕вр╣Ар╕лр╣Зр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕бр╕╡р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Щр╕│р╕бр╕▓р╣Бр╕кр╕Фр╕Зр╕Щр╕┤р╕Чр╕гр╕гр╕ир╕Бр╕▓р╕г)
р╣Бр╕Щр╣Ир╕Щр╕нр╕Щ р╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Цр╕▒р╕Фр╕бр╕▓ р╕Др╕╖р╕н р╣Ар╕Кр╣Йр╕▓р╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 6 р╕Хр╕╕р╕ер╕▓р╕Др╕б “р╕Фр╕▓р╕зр╕кр╕вр╕▓р╕б” р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕Хр╕╡р╕Юр╕┤р╕бр╕Юр╣М “р╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╣Бр╕Вр╕зр╕Щр╕Др╕н” р╕нр╕╡р╕Б р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕Хр╕▓р╕бр╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╣Гр╕Ир╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Ьр╕б р╕Фр╕╣р╣Ар╕лр╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Щ р╕Ир╕░р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Ар╕лр╕бр╕╖р╕нр╕Щр╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕Ър╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 5 р╣Ар╕кр╕╡р╕вр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╕вр╕з р╣Гр╕Щр╣Бр╕Зр╣Ир╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕Вр╕Щр╕▓р╕Ф (р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕нр╕▓р╕Ир╕Ир╕░р╕бр╕╕р╕бр╕Бр╕ер╣Йр╕нр╕Зр╕Фр╣Йр╕зр╕в)
р╕Щр╣Ир╕▓р╣Ар╕кр╕╡р╕вр╕Фр╕▓р╕вр╕бр╕▓р╕Бр╣Ж
р╕Чр╕╕р╕Бр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Щр╕╡р╣Й р╣Ар╕зр╕ер╕▓р╕бр╕╡р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ир╕▒р╕Фр╕Щр╕┤р╕Чр╕гр╕гр╕ир╕Бр╕▓р╕г 6 р╕Хр╕╕р╕ер╕▓ р╕Др╕Щр╕Ир╕▒р╕Ф р╕Бр╣Зр╕Ир╕░р╣Др╕Ыр╕Цр╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╕гр╕╣р╕Ы “р╕Фр╕▓р╕зр╕кр╕вр╕▓р╕б” р╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕лр╕нр╕кр╕бр╕╕р╕Фр╣Бр╕лр╣Ир╕Зр╕Кр╕▓р╕Хр╕┤ р╣Бр╕Хр╣Ир╕Бр╣Зр╕Ир╕░р╣Др╕Фр╣Й р╣Ар╕Йр╕Юр╕▓р╕░р╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ър╣Ар╕Кр╣Йр╕▓р╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 6 р╕Хр╕╕р╕ер╕▓р╕Др╕б р╕Щр╕╡р╣Й р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ър╕Ър╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 5 р╕Хр╕╕р╕ер╕▓р╕Др╕б р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щ “р╕Кр╕Щр╕зр╕Щ” р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╣Ар╕лр╕Хр╕╕р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ур╣Мр╕Ир╕гр╕┤р╕Зр╣Ж
р╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ър╣Ар╕Кр╣Йр╕▓р╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 5 р╕Хр╕╕р╕ер╕▓р╕Др╕б р╕вр╕▒р╕Зр╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕бр╕╡р╕ар╕▓р╕Юр╕Фр╕▒р╕Зр╕Бр╕ер╣Ир╕▓р╕з
р╣Ар╕гр╕╖р╣Ир╕нр╕Зр╕Щр╕╡р╣Й р╕бр╕╡р╕гр╕▓р╕вр╕ер╕░р╣Ар╕нр╕╡р╕вр╕Ф р╕Чр╕╡р╕Щр╣Ир╕▓р╣Ар╕кр╕╡р╕вр╕Фр╕▓р╕вр╕бр╕▓р╕Бр╕Бр╕зр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕╡р╣Йр╕нр╕╡р╕Б р╕Др╕╖р╕н “р╕Фр╕▓р╕зр╕кр╕вр╕▓р╕б” р╕Хр╕╡р╕Юр╕┤р╕бр╕Юр╣Мр╕ар╕▓р╕Ю “р╣Бр╕Вр╕зр╕Щр╕Др╕н” р╕Чр╕▒р╣Йр╕Зр╕кр╕┤р╣Йр╕Щ 3 р╕Др╕гр╕▒р╣Йр╕З р╕Др╕╖р╕н р╕Ър╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 4 (р╕Бр╕гр╕нр╕Ър╣Бр╕гр╕Б р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И “5”), р╕Ър╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 5 (р╕Бр╕гр╕нр╕Ър╣Бр╕гр╕Б р╕Вр╕нр╕Зр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И “6”) р╣Бр╕ер╕░ р╣Ар╕Кр╣Йр╕▓р╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 6 р╣Ар╕нр╕З
р╕Чр╕╕р╕Бр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Щр╕╡р╣Й р╣Ар╕гр╕▓р╕бр╕╡р╣Ар╕Йр╕Юр╕▓р╕░ р╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ър╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕нр╕нр╕Бр╣Гр╕Щр╣Ар╕Кр╣Йр╕▓р╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 6 р╣Ар╕Чр╣Ир╕▓р╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щ р╕Йр╕Ър╕▒р╕Ър╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕нр╕нр╕Бр╣Гр╕Щр╕Ър╣Ир╕▓р╕вр╕зр╕▒р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 4 р╣Бр╕ер╕░ 5 р╣Др╕бр╣Ир╕бр╕╡р╣Бр╕ер╣Йр╕з