That was a good one land#78. However, on #79 I have strong reservations on blaming the manipulated, poor Thai voters. For me, it is the wealthy manipulators that must be made accountable for the state that Thai Democracy is in. Ofcourse, a positive from all this is that the rural voters will demand more from their politicians and governments and present/future Thai governments must/will have to be responsive to their needs/plights. Thinking optimistically, this can be a win-win scenario – less corruption (a major Achilles heel) and a more broad-based democracy.
I always found the Lonely Planet Thai Language phrase book one of the best on the market for day to day practical Thai and, at times, hilarious with sections on dating and even sex – that includes the immortal line “Don’t worry, I’ll do it myself.”
The major shortcoming of democracy arises when it’s applied by low-quality voters, and that’s the case in Thailand. You would not understand as it never happened in such developed countries as Australia. Most of the poor in rural areas (not applied to southern part as they’re more info alert) do not really care how badly Thaksin corrupted the country; they just worship the one who throw small money to them. It becomes a big threat to Thailand’s future as Thaksin abused governmental budget to buy their vote. He’s obviously notorious for huge corruption, cronyism, and interest-conflicted deals.
The most ridiculous thing is that he has been talking about democracy, despite the fact that he bought all independent agencies like Election Committee, Bureau of Corruption Investigation, and even Senators. Among very few, Supreme Court remains untouchable, and found him guilty of many corruption cases. That’s why he always says the court is unfair.
Western developed countries like US, GB, and Japan wouldn’t tolerate such a corrupted politician for SURE, but seems you easily tolerate if he does the same thing in our country.
I recommend that you study hard and should truly know about another country with different culture before criticizing them.
PS. For the one who still believe Thaksin does not pay the redshirts for protesting and committing violence during ASEAN summit, see this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K6bGlnirgk
Dickie Simpkins #19, maverick263 #21 seem to provide a good answer to that question.
The high body count was part of the premeditated plan to paint to the international media that the Democrat government colluded with the military in ‘suppressing with extreme violent unarmed protestors fighting for democracy resulting in truckloads of deaths’. It is ruthless Machiavellianism. Apparently it backfired badly as the foriegn media have begun to really see PMThaksin for what he is – a lying, deceitful hypocrit – and foreign governments understanding the Thai situation better (my sympathies for the Nicaraguans as he will be conducting many questionable business and political deals as their ambassadorial representative).
Frankly I initially thought that it was the end of PMAbhisit’s tenure who was made to look like a global joke after ‘failing’ to provide adequate protection for international leaders at ASEAN summit (and at a logistically very defensible hotel perged on a cliff!). This combined with the fact that his own personal security was breached twice points to the fact that the security forces were not behind him at all, and with Mr.Newin looking like a Trojan Horse, a house dissolution looked the most likely option.
I’m still not sure what turned it around. Many commentators said that PMAbhisit and Suthep circumvented both the army and police chiefs (whom the PAD always considered untrustworthy) but even that is unclear. When the army came out initially after the declaration of SOE, even they seemed directionless. It seemed like suddenly, from thin air, there appeared clear plan of action backed by law and unprecedented professionalism at the 11th hour!
I tend to also agree with what you say in a previous post that it partially came down to ‘accountability’ – and here are top-level political masters openly willing to take responsibility if things take a bad turn as a direct result of plan implementation. This was very different from Oct 7th police surprise crackdown of PAD where PMSomchai and PMChavalit refused to take responsibility and did the bad Thai Phuyai thing of letting the police commanders shoulder the blame (and they did not either – if anyone gets punished it will be the foot soldier). Yes, there are clearly commendable precedents set here – but it will be a long time before it becomes standard practice for Thai politicians.
As I said things will come out in the wash. This video from Japanese news has at station 2:04 a soldier shooting his sidearm directly at the protesters. So does that mean that it was only the reds that had handguns, it appears not it also may raise doubt about who actually killed the 2 anti-protest protesters if the military was indiscriminately firing. Remember Mark said no one was killed from a military M16 round. LOL
Acharn Somsak. Many, many thanks for digging out this reference.
I asked this question because I want to quote these words in a publication. As a general rule, if a quote appears (like this one) in English translation, I try to find the Thai original because the press translations are sometimes quite loose.
As it turns out he did not say the words quoted in the AP story on the night of the 12th. Their quotation is a conflation of three things he said at three different times. So I was right to be wary. And I’m very grateful to A. Somsak and NM (and AP) for helping to sort this out, and saving me from a misquotation.
I now have a correct (and different) quote, which is great.
On the Pi Malakul house meeting. I agree with A. Somsak, that Thaksin might well have meant the coup. That’s an interpretation. But what Thaksin related, in summary form was, ‘Surayud told the meeting that three PCs had been to audience and given an undertaking to fix me.’ The FT headline has changed this to say that the three PCs informed him about a coup. The FT headline was rapidly repeated by other papers and blogs. It has now become a ‘fact.’ As one of Thailand’s most punctilious historians, A. Somsak knows what I mean. I don’t think we want the facts made up in Fleet Street.
Yes, I agree with Srithanonchai and Dickie that the audience might have interpreted his statement as a call for action. Again, interpretation. In fact, interpretation of interpretation.
Ralph Kramden – “what is the bottom line regarding the statement about firing blanks during the demos?”
Lets put it in perspective not knowing the actual orders given or enforced.
You are a young private in the Thai army, most likely a conscript from a poor rural family. You are turfed into a street protest that you have no idea what the outcome may be but you know that the APC’s were commandeered the afternoon before and that in previous protests the police were fired on by the then PAD guards. Do you???
a) load blanks hoping you can scare the possibly rampaging mob who may be shooting at you and if they get you they may well take you apart.
OR
b) Load live rounds knowing that if the situation goes south you will not have time to change magazines to live rounds to protect yourself.
We would all take option “b” and so did the majority of the military in Bangkok. This is born out with the total lack of wasted blank cartridges.
WEe know from videos and pictures that the military did not fire exclusively into the air but directly at things.
Things are just starting to emerge now and as soon as the SOE is lifted you will most likely see more information on this come out as more people feel confident to make statements.
I look forward to the day when there is one standard anglicised version of the Thai language. When I started learning at a prestigious London college the tutor used a different anglicisation than the book he was using. Talk about confusing?
I think such standardisation would help the tourist trade too.
I have written this as though blocking NM would mean the Thai-Australia relationship would collapse! Of course not, but it would become part of the culmination of negatively geared media about the situation in Australia… leading to some of those things I’ve blustered above.
I realize Nick is a blogster, but Andrew and Nicholas are academics who get peer reviewed. . .
Everything a “blogster” writes is subject to critique by other bloggers and readers. Case in point: some 75 people from all over the world and many walks of life have already peer-reviewed Nick’s work. More will surely follow. How common is it for an academic to have any article so closely read and widely commented upon?
Also, a good peer review focuses on specific points raised in an article. Personal attacks are helpful neither to editors nor contributors. Please be advised that this style of peer review, though all-too-common in academia, is generally not well received in the blogosphere.
Thaksin continues to have rural Thais’ fervent support NOT because they are stupid and uneducated, on the contrary – they know what is good for them – they have benefited from Thaksin’s policies while he was in office as PM.
There has always been a wide social disparity between middle-class/upper-class Thais and rural Thais, and the latter’s needs and voice have always been trivialized; they remain in the eyes of the educated Thais as backwards, rural and foolhardy. But the mentality of these people is that they stand to lose a lot without Thaksin’s policies. In my opinion, its not Thaksin they support, its his policies. His policies that acknowledge, understand and support rural Thais. That is perhaps why they continually elect pro-Thaksin candidates in hopes of securing the same treatment they got from Thaksin, and a PAD- sanctioned Abhisit is not going to assuage their fears and worries, neither will the 500 baht or however much (fill in amount here) baht packages introduced by Abhisit; many rural Thais are odd jobs labourer who are not eligible for these packages (a garlic peeler earns less than USD 15/mth).
PAD and its supporters has repeatedly denied general election results (any affiliation to Thaksin is not allowed) but doesn’t general elections by its people count for something? It’s a plain slap to the face, saying “Who cares about you?.”
With the PAD-supported Abhisit installed as PM by an arbitrary court decision; the rural Thais are supposed to just roll over and play dead after repeatedly getting ‘slapped across their faces’ whilst their voices continue to be toned down? On top of that, the government calls them ‘rural folks who lack education’. Good going there. That’s sure to win them over. As for people who perceive red shirts as minions of the UDD and Thaksin, I think they should really get off their high horse and try to identify with the rural Thais.
That’s why I always find comments such as ” red shirts are stupid people who support corruption” as ignorant. As for those who believe that red shirts who support UDD and Thaksin invariably supports the subversion of the Thai monarchy, GET REAL. The rural, more traditional Thais revere and love their King doubtlessly more than the westernized, urbanized bourgeois. Anyone who’s been in the rural north can vouch for the fact that every household has a portrait of the King or the royal family hanging on their walls ,and what’s hanging on the walls of the BKK elites? A picasso, most likely.
Marty and Portman: I have found your comments on the weaponry fascinating. But as a non-specialist, what is the bottom line regarding the statement about firing blanks during the demos?
It would seem that the “billionaire” Dr. Thaksin already has ambitious plans for his own post revolution investment, and that he has the foresight to prepare for foreign policy initiatives in advance of the people’s victory.
The former Prime Minister of Thailand has held talks with Vice President Joseph Boakai aimed at exploring avenues for a huge investment in Liberia.
Mr. Thaksin Shinawatra told VP Boakai Tuesday it is his strong intention for Thailand to have good relations with African Countries.
According to him, Thailand would like to share its success and failure in the areas of agriculture and poverty eradication.
Mr. Shinawatra said his group is interested in oil and mineral exploration and extraction, agriculture, telecommunication license and Lottery.
The Thai billionaire arrived in Liberia early Tuesday and would continue his journey to Ivory Coast and other African Countries on Wednesday.
Making remarks, VP Boakai welcomed Mr. Shinawatra and delegation and urged the Thais to investment in Liberia as the country has all of the minerals. ”
Or is he just trying to blag somehere to set up a satellite link?
“Strangely its the Red leadership, from PMThaksin that is peddling a huge body count to foreign and local media alike – why? I can safely say that, from evidences and circumstances, it is what they desired.”
1) it’s not strange, it’s simple: enticement of mass/mob-violence to enforce bloody “state” “response”.
1a) “state response”, imho, was appropriate. Abhisit gave “UDD” a lot of freedom to “exercise democratic rights” — but maybe that never was intention of some of “managers of ‘ppl revolution'”. [note: “UDD” _at that time_, just 10days ago, was mostly perceived as “_one_ entity”. i don’t follow that assumption]
1b1) u cannot lose if u play game this way. either (“bad bad, terrible”) “state” appears to be weak (worse, if it actually _is_)— then you just burn it down. a “failed state”. neither parliament, nor mp’s, nor courts, neither army nor police, nor media are able & willing to perform. deep corruption @ heart of society. have a look in mirror, ppl of thailand…
1b2) or “state” (weak or not) executes its right for self-defence. protect life liberty property of “its” citizens — & while doing so…, kills 1, 2, 100, 300 ppl. the bloodier the mess, the higher the scores on global media-impact.
1c) u cannot lose if u play game this way. as long as u’re far away…
*…
2) since apr15 we can observe a massive international “opinion shaping” operation… _NOT_ for interests of (so-called) “UDD” “supporters” or claims, no way — but specifically aimed at:
2a) complete denial of _any_ causal connection between “UDD” (in Thaksin/Jakrapob terminology; “THE people”), Jatuporn, Jakrapob, Thaksin &
2a1) violent events in pattaya
2a2) fierce agitation for a “ppl revolution” etc
2a2) declaration of SoE in bkk
2a3) mob violence
all that never happened ,) well, sorry, yes, maybe some of it happened — but it all was completely different ,)
-> 2b) actually, intent is to show “democracy loving ppl”, “people with bare hands”, were “killed” by an “evil government” without any “legitimation”, controlled by “puppet masters” “in highest places”. yes, sounds like mtv, cnn, bbc, youtube…; & does it _not_ sound like what ppl in critical blog-land “happily” indulge in to perceive? uiiih, does it sounds “real”?
2b1) which “cause” is “real”? thaksin/jakrapob go for escalation & destabilization — as they cannot lose doing it. in general terms, today, we’d call that “terrorism” — but, strangely, “opinion” in “enlightened circles” is… they’re doing that… for what? a “greater good”?
there’s a capitalization on global mind/mood that established systems of governance have failed.
2b1A) anyhow, if thaksin/jakrapob indeed & sincerely wd speak “for (whomever)”, we shd observe a call for empowerment for the moderate, “political” “UDD” — right? the ones that “play by the rules” & are hold in custody. is that the case? do either thaksin or jakrapob even mention their names?
-> 2c) we observe a denial of causation. just another aspect of corruption.
Maybe it’d be better to talk about the latest wonderful piece by Thanong. Some will say he is mad, but my feeling is that he reflects a particular position amongst those he calls royalists and monarchists.
See http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/thanong/2009/04/21/entry-1
Your report has given me a greater understanding of what was happening that day. The concerning issue has got to be the way most Thai people get their news. And going further, their understand of their politics and history.
Portman, I don’t think it would be impossible, I said I think it would be ridiculous. Prosecuting ‘offenders’ in absentia would sour relations between Australia and Thailand. Youtube is a corporation, not a nation. Blocking NM would not be good for Australian public opinion. Furthermore, in regards to Australia, I present the usual arguments. It would damage the Thai economy through the tourism industry. Even with our relatively few tourists, Australia’s ‘Western’ significance may see knock on effects to bigger international players – and I wouldn’t think this would be the time on the international stage to be flaunting with employment figures if you wish to be elected or remain elected (tourism being such a big employment sector in Thailand). It would hamper reciprocity in relation to Thais traveling or immigrating to Australia, (perhaps Thaksin would advise them to migrate to Nicaragua instead!) — and I’m sure trade issues would emerge. Can you imagine the Thai embassy in Canberra requesting that the ANU delete New Mandala or face the ANUs site, or just NM, being blocked in Thailand? Haha, it would be great. A site for understanding, furthering dialogue, and new perspectives instead (inadvertently or intentionally?!) becomes an agent of dastardly political ‘reform’! Also I think the ANU is the only university in Australia which has a Thai programme(?), so there might be diplomats who might have been through the ANU system working in DFAT that would, I presume, take offense – or it may at least put them in an awkward position personally. In regards to this, I don’t think Thailand, with it’s recent blunder in regards to hosting foreign officials, can afford to be petulant again with regional economic players if economic development is seriously on the agenda. Maybe Thaksin on this hypothetical return to feet kissing would forget economic development and rural empowerment this time so he could continue to hold onto the reins? I simply picked up on the quote of yours that was made in this post.
How would Thais view a sour relationship with Australia? Would it provoke a siege mentality?
It would be picked up by various media if someone from this site was arrested for Lese Majeste irrespective of their nationality. This would make the whole issue of the role of the monarchy boil again, which I would think, is something those privy would wish to avoid, and as you said – it would further highlight the need for LM reform through mockery of the monarchy internationally. I agree, I don’t see Thaksin, if he does return to power, changing the law for better or worse. I commented initially because I understood you to be saying that the situation would become more draconian as he or the reds try to make up for previous misnomers.
In regards to Nich’s questions, I think a red government would do what it had to do, and if that meant using Lese Majeste to batter it’s opponents then it would do so. Perhaps it would do so in the name of reform for protection? Though this would just be a good facade for maintaining legitimacy. There are no new rules in politics, only new ways of expressing the rules. The Lese Majeste law should not be a weapon. A government that uses legal weapons against it’s opponents is a weak government because it should not need to resort to laws which brings LM into politics for the upper hand in inter-party squabbling. Crying to mum to fix it isn’t going to work in the long run…
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The crushing of the Red Shirts
That was a good one land#78. However, on #79 I have strong reservations on blaming the manipulated, poor Thai voters. For me, it is the wealthy manipulators that must be made accountable for the state that Thai Democracy is in. Ofcourse, a positive from all this is that the rural voters will demand more from their politicians and governments and present/future Thai governments must/will have to be responsive to their needs/plights. Thinking optimistically, this can be a win-win scenario – less corruption (a major Achilles heel) and a more broad-based democracy.
Review of Thai language phrasebooks
I always found the Lonely Planet Thai Language phrase book one of the best on the market for day to day practical Thai and, at times, hilarious with sections on dating and even sex – that includes the immortal line “Don’t worry, I’ll do it myself.”
The crushing of the Red Shirts
The major shortcoming of democracy arises when it’s applied by low-quality voters, and that’s the case in Thailand. You would not understand as it never happened in such developed countries as Australia. Most of the poor in rural areas (not applied to southern part as they’re more info alert) do not really care how badly Thaksin corrupted the country; they just worship the one who throw small money to them. It becomes a big threat to Thailand’s future as Thaksin abused governmental budget to buy their vote. He’s obviously notorious for huge corruption, cronyism, and interest-conflicted deals.
The most ridiculous thing is that he has been talking about democracy, despite the fact that he bought all independent agencies like Election Committee, Bureau of Corruption Investigation, and even Senators. Among very few, Supreme Court remains untouchable, and found him guilty of many corruption cases. That’s why he always says the court is unfair.
Western developed countries like US, GB, and Japan wouldn’t tolerate such a corrupted politician for SURE, but seems you easily tolerate if he does the same thing in our country.
I recommend that you study hard and should truly know about another country with different culture before criticizing them.
PS. For the one who still believe Thaksin does not pay the redshirts for protesting and committing violence during ASEAN summit, see this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K6bGlnirgk
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
Dickie Simpkins #19, maverick263 #21 seem to provide a good answer to that question.
The high body count was part of the premeditated plan to paint to the international media that the Democrat government colluded with the military in ‘suppressing with extreme violent unarmed protestors fighting for democracy resulting in truckloads of deaths’. It is ruthless Machiavellianism. Apparently it backfired badly as the foriegn media have begun to really see PMThaksin for what he is – a lying, deceitful hypocrit – and foreign governments understanding the Thai situation better (my sympathies for the Nicaraguans as he will be conducting many questionable business and political deals as their ambassadorial representative).
Frankly I initially thought that it was the end of PMAbhisit’s tenure who was made to look like a global joke after ‘failing’ to provide adequate protection for international leaders at ASEAN summit (and at a logistically very defensible hotel perged on a cliff!). This combined with the fact that his own personal security was breached twice points to the fact that the security forces were not behind him at all, and with Mr.Newin looking like a Trojan Horse, a house dissolution looked the most likely option.
I’m still not sure what turned it around. Many commentators said that PMAbhisit and Suthep circumvented both the army and police chiefs (whom the PAD always considered untrustworthy) but even that is unclear. When the army came out initially after the declaration of SOE, even they seemed directionless. It seemed like suddenly, from thin air, there appeared clear plan of action backed by law and unprecedented professionalism at the 11th hour!
I tend to also agree with what you say in a previous post that it partially came down to ‘accountability’ – and here are top-level political masters openly willing to take responsibility if things take a bad turn as a direct result of plan implementation. This was very different from Oct 7th police surprise crackdown of PAD where PMSomchai and PMChavalit refused to take responsibility and did the bad Thai Phuyai thing of letting the police commanders shoulder the blame (and they did not either – if anyone gets punished it will be the foot soldier). Yes, there are clearly commendable precedents set here – but it will be a long time before it becomes standard practice for Thai politicians.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Pinocchio, Snow White, and Superman are out for a stroll in town one day.
As they walked, they come across a sign:
“Beauty contest for the most beautiful woman in the world.”
“I am entering!” said Snow White.
After half an hour she comes out and they ask her, “Well, how’d ya do?”
“First Place!,” said Snow White.
They continue walking and they see a sign:
“Contest for the strongest man in the world.”
“I’m entering,” says Superman.
After half an hour, he returns and they ask him, “How did you
make out?”
“First Place,” answers Superman. “Did you ever doubt?”
They continue walking when they see a sign:
“Contest! Who is the greatest liar in the world?”
Pinocchio enters.
After half an hour he returns with tears in his eyes.
“What happened?” they asked.
“Who the hell is Thaksin?” asked Pinocchio
Student massacres
р╕Вр╕нр╕Ър╕Др╕╕р╕Ур╕кр╕│р╕лр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Вр╣Йр╕нр╕бр╕╣р╕ер╕Щр╕░р╕Др╕гр╕▒р╕Ъ
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Ralph Kramden
As I said things will come out in the wash. This video from Japanese news has at station 2:04 a soldier shooting his sidearm directly at the protesters. So does that mean that it was only the reds that had handguns, it appears not it also may raise doubt about who actually killed the 2 anti-protest protesters if the military was indiscriminately firing. Remember Mark said no one was killed from a military M16 round. LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdzSeK2zEgg
Did Thaksin call for revolution?
Acharn Somsak. Many, many thanks for digging out this reference.
I asked this question because I want to quote these words in a publication. As a general rule, if a quote appears (like this one) in English translation, I try to find the Thai original because the press translations are sometimes quite loose.
As it turns out he did not say the words quoted in the AP story on the night of the 12th. Their quotation is a conflation of three things he said at three different times. So I was right to be wary. And I’m very grateful to A. Somsak and NM (and AP) for helping to sort this out, and saving me from a misquotation.
I now have a correct (and different) quote, which is great.
On the Pi Malakul house meeting. I agree with A. Somsak, that Thaksin might well have meant the coup. That’s an interpretation. But what Thaksin related, in summary form was, ‘Surayud told the meeting that three PCs had been to audience and given an undertaking to fix me.’ The FT headline has changed this to say that the three PCs informed him about a coup. The FT headline was rapidly repeated by other papers and blogs. It has now become a ‘fact.’ As one of Thailand’s most punctilious historians, A. Somsak knows what I mean. I don’t think we want the facts made up in Fleet Street.
Yes, I agree with Srithanonchai and Dickie that the audience might have interpreted his statement as a call for action. Again, interpretation. In fact, interpretation of interpretation.
Thanks to all.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Ralph Kramden – “what is the bottom line regarding the statement about firing blanks during the demos?”
Lets put it in perspective not knowing the actual orders given or enforced.
You are a young private in the Thai army, most likely a conscript from a poor rural family. You are turfed into a street protest that you have no idea what the outcome may be but you know that the APC’s were commandeered the afternoon before and that in previous protests the police were fired on by the then PAD guards. Do you???
a) load blanks hoping you can scare the possibly rampaging mob who may be shooting at you and if they get you they may well take you apart.
OR
b) Load live rounds knowing that if the situation goes south you will not have time to change magazines to live rounds to protect yourself.
We would all take option “b” and so did the majority of the military in Bangkok. This is born out with the total lack of wasted blank cartridges.
WEe know from videos and pictures that the military did not fire exclusively into the air but directly at things.
Things are just starting to emerge now and as soon as the SOE is lifted you will most likely see more information on this come out as more people feel confident to make statements.
Review of Thai language phrasebooks
I look forward to the day when there is one standard anglicised version of the Thai language. When I started learning at a prestigious London college the tutor used a different anglicisation than the book he was using. Talk about confusing?
I think such standardisation would help the tourist trade too.
Lese majeste under a new Thaksin government
I have written this as though blocking NM would mean the Thai-Australia relationship would collapse! Of course not, but it would become part of the culmination of negatively geared media about the situation in Australia… leading to some of those things I’ve blustered above.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Ecrit wrote:
I realize Nick is a blogster, but Andrew and Nicholas are academics who get peer reviewed. . .
Everything a “blogster” writes is subject to critique by other bloggers and readers. Case in point: some 75 people from all over the world and many walks of life have already peer-reviewed Nick’s work. More will surely follow. How common is it for an academic to have any article so closely read and widely commented upon?
Also, a good peer review focuses on specific points raised in an article. Personal attacks are helpful neither to editors nor contributors. Please be advised that this style of peer review, though all-too-common in academia, is generally not well received in the blogosphere.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
b. My sentiments are similar.
Thaksin continues to have rural Thais’ fervent support NOT because they are stupid and uneducated, on the contrary – they know what is good for them – they have benefited from Thaksin’s policies while he was in office as PM.
There has always been a wide social disparity between middle-class/upper-class Thais and rural Thais, and the latter’s needs and voice have always been trivialized; they remain in the eyes of the educated Thais as backwards, rural and foolhardy. But the mentality of these people is that they stand to lose a lot without Thaksin’s policies. In my opinion, its not Thaksin they support, its his policies. His policies that acknowledge, understand and support rural Thais. That is perhaps why they continually elect pro-Thaksin candidates in hopes of securing the same treatment they got from Thaksin, and a PAD- sanctioned Abhisit is not going to assuage their fears and worries, neither will the 500 baht or however much (fill in amount here) baht packages introduced by Abhisit; many rural Thais are odd jobs labourer who are not eligible for these packages (a garlic peeler earns less than USD 15/mth).
PAD and its supporters has repeatedly denied general election results (any affiliation to Thaksin is not allowed) but doesn’t general elections by its people count for something? It’s a plain slap to the face, saying “Who cares about you?.”
With the PAD-supported Abhisit installed as PM by an arbitrary court decision; the rural Thais are supposed to just roll over and play dead after repeatedly getting ‘slapped across their faces’ whilst their voices continue to be toned down? On top of that, the government calls them ‘rural folks who lack education’. Good going there. That’s sure to win them over. As for people who perceive red shirts as minions of the UDD and Thaksin, I think they should really get off their high horse and try to identify with the rural Thais.
That’s why I always find comments such as ” red shirts are stupid people who support corruption” as ignorant. As for those who believe that red shirts who support UDD and Thaksin invariably supports the subversion of the Thai monarchy, GET REAL. The rural, more traditional Thais revere and love their King doubtlessly more than the westernized, urbanized bourgeois. Anyone who’s been in the rural north can vouch for the fact that every household has a portrait of the King or the royal family hanging on their walls ,and what’s hanging on the walls of the BKK elites? A picasso, most likely.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Just after I sent the above question to Marty and Portman I went to the Nation. Anupong has spoken on live rounds: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/04/24/national/national_30101183.php
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Marty and Portman: I have found your comments on the weaponry fascinating. But as a non-specialist, what is the bottom line regarding the statement about firing blanks during the demos?
Did Thaksin call for revolution?
It would seem that the “billionaire” Dr. Thaksin already has ambitious plans for his own post revolution investment, and that he has the foresight to prepare for foreign policy initiatives in advance of the people’s victory.
From Star Radio Liberia http://www.starradio.org.lr/content/view/11443/380/
“Former Thai PM in Liberia
Written by Julius Kanubah
Tuesday, 21 April 2009
The former Prime Minister of Thailand has held talks with Vice President Joseph Boakai aimed at exploring avenues for a huge investment in Liberia.
Mr. Thaksin Shinawatra told VP Boakai Tuesday it is his strong intention for Thailand to have good relations with African Countries.
According to him, Thailand would like to share its success and failure in the areas of agriculture and poverty eradication.
Mr. Shinawatra said his group is interested in oil and mineral exploration and extraction, agriculture, telecommunication license and Lottery.
The Thai billionaire arrived in Liberia early Tuesday and would continue his journey to Ivory Coast and other African Countries on Wednesday.
Making remarks, VP Boakai welcomed Mr. Shinawatra and delegation and urged the Thais to investment in Liberia as the country has all of the minerals. ”
Or is he just trying to blag somehere to set up a satellite link?
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
Sidh S,
thx 4 #18. u say:
“Strangely its the Red leadership, from PMThaksin that is peddling a huge body count to foreign and local media alike – why? I can safely say that, from evidences and circumstances, it is what they desired.”
1) it’s not strange, it’s simple: enticement of mass/mob-violence to enforce bloody “state” “response”.
1a) “state response”, imho, was appropriate. Abhisit gave “UDD” a lot of freedom to “exercise democratic rights” — but maybe that never was intention of some of “managers of ‘ppl revolution'”. [note: “UDD” _at that time_, just 10days ago, was mostly perceived as “_one_ entity”. i don’t follow that assumption]
1b1) u cannot lose if u play game this way. either (“bad bad, terrible”) “state” appears to be weak (worse, if it actually _is_)— then you just burn it down. a “failed state”. neither parliament, nor mp’s, nor courts, neither army nor police, nor media are able & willing to perform. deep corruption @ heart of society. have a look in mirror, ppl of thailand…
1b2) or “state” (weak or not) executes its right for self-defence. protect life liberty property of “its” citizens — & while doing so…, kills 1, 2, 100, 300 ppl. the bloodier the mess, the higher the scores on global media-impact.
1c) u cannot lose if u play game this way. as long as u’re far away…
*…
2) since apr15 we can observe a massive international “opinion shaping” operation… _NOT_ for interests of (so-called) “UDD” “supporters” or claims, no way — but specifically aimed at:
2a) complete denial of _any_ causal connection between “UDD” (in Thaksin/Jakrapob terminology; “THE people”), Jatuporn, Jakrapob, Thaksin &
2a1) violent events in pattaya
2a2) fierce agitation for a “ppl revolution” etc
2a2) declaration of SoE in bkk
2a3) mob violence
all that never happened ,) well, sorry, yes, maybe some of it happened — but it all was completely different ,)
-> 2b) actually, intent is to show “democracy loving ppl”, “people with bare hands”, were “killed” by an “evil government” without any “legitimation”, controlled by “puppet masters” “in highest places”. yes, sounds like mtv, cnn, bbc, youtube…; & does it _not_ sound like what ppl in critical blog-land “happily” indulge in to perceive? uiiih, does it sounds “real”?
2b1) which “cause” is “real”? thaksin/jakrapob go for escalation & destabilization — as they cannot lose doing it. in general terms, today, we’d call that “terrorism” — but, strangely, “opinion” in “enlightened circles” is… they’re doing that… for what? a “greater good”?
there’s a capitalization on global mind/mood that established systems of governance have failed.
2b1A) anyhow, if thaksin/jakrapob indeed & sincerely wd speak “for (whomever)”, we shd observe a call for empowerment for the moderate, “political” “UDD” — right? the ones that “play by the rules” & are hold in custody. is that the case? do either thaksin or jakrapob even mention their names?
-> 2c) we observe a denial of causation. just another aspect of corruption.
2c1) corruption. of minds/hearts. as usual 😉
*…
my 0,02bht. thx 4 ur time.
From the archives: Batson on Prajadhipok
Maybe it’d be better to talk about the latest wonderful piece by Thanong. Some will say he is mad, but my feeling is that he reflects a particular position amongst those he calls royalists and monarchists.
See http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/thanong/2009/04/21/entry-1
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Hi Nick,
Your report has given me a greater understanding of what was happening that day. The concerning issue has got to be the way most Thai people get their news. And going further, their understand of their politics and history.
Thanks again for the great effort.
Simon Ruddle
Lese majeste under a new Thaksin government
Portman, I don’t think it would be impossible, I said I think it would be ridiculous. Prosecuting ‘offenders’ in absentia would sour relations between Australia and Thailand. Youtube is a corporation, not a nation. Blocking NM would not be good for Australian public opinion. Furthermore, in regards to Australia, I present the usual arguments. It would damage the Thai economy through the tourism industry. Even with our relatively few tourists, Australia’s ‘Western’ significance may see knock on effects to bigger international players – and I wouldn’t think this would be the time on the international stage to be flaunting with employment figures if you wish to be elected or remain elected (tourism being such a big employment sector in Thailand). It would hamper reciprocity in relation to Thais traveling or immigrating to Australia, (perhaps Thaksin would advise them to migrate to Nicaragua instead!) — and I’m sure trade issues would emerge. Can you imagine the Thai embassy in Canberra requesting that the ANU delete New Mandala or face the ANUs site, or just NM, being blocked in Thailand? Haha, it would be great. A site for understanding, furthering dialogue, and new perspectives instead (inadvertently or intentionally?!) becomes an agent of dastardly political ‘reform’! Also I think the ANU is the only university in Australia which has a Thai programme(?), so there might be diplomats who might have been through the ANU system working in DFAT that would, I presume, take offense – or it may at least put them in an awkward position personally. In regards to this, I don’t think Thailand, with it’s recent blunder in regards to hosting foreign officials, can afford to be petulant again with regional economic players if economic development is seriously on the agenda. Maybe Thaksin on this hypothetical return to feet kissing would forget economic development and rural empowerment this time so he could continue to hold onto the reins? I simply picked up on the quote of yours that was made in this post.
How would Thais view a sour relationship with Australia? Would it provoke a siege mentality?
It would be picked up by various media if someone from this site was arrested for Lese Majeste irrespective of their nationality. This would make the whole issue of the role of the monarchy boil again, which I would think, is something those privy would wish to avoid, and as you said – it would further highlight the need for LM reform through mockery of the monarchy internationally. I agree, I don’t see Thaksin, if he does return to power, changing the law for better or worse. I commented initially because I understood you to be saying that the situation would become more draconian as he or the reds try to make up for previous misnomers.
In regards to Nich’s questions, I think a red government would do what it had to do, and if that meant using Lese Majeste to batter it’s opponents then it would do so. Perhaps it would do so in the name of reform for protection? Though this would just be a good facade for maintaining legitimacy. There are no new rules in politics, only new ways of expressing the rules. The Lese Majeste law should not be a weapon. A government that uses legal weapons against it’s opponents is a weak government because it should not need to resort to laws which brings LM into politics for the upper hand in inter-party squabbling. Crying to mum to fix it isn’t going to work in the long run…
I don’t know.