I agree with Ecrit above. Turn this blog into an academic journal. Make the BBC’s Head resign for offering to lend a camera to another journalist. Eliminate advocacy journalism so that we may read the facts alone. At least that way we might know about the heinous events in Hua Hin. And don’t ever declare exactly what you are doing at the beginning of an article. That just confuses us.
Don’t overestimate the political relevance of blogs and new mandala.
As demonstrated in Malaysia, Singapore or Indonesia there is no need to have a LM law to control dissenting views. ISA is in fact far more effecient (might be the reason why Malaysia and Singapore are more advanced) As an authoritarian person Thaksin certainly will follow what he did before that is quitening any dissenting views. Even though it might be difficult to comprehend: the problem in Thailand is not who is the ruler, but how rule is institutionalized. Thus, the question is whether Thaksin as president (or founder of a new dynasty?) will differ from former elites or not. During his time as PM he provided little indication that he might favour a democratic regime.
P.s.: This does not imply that I favour the yellows, but that political change in Thailand is not a question of fashion or of favouring colours for t-shirts.
Portman :- You make a good point but it’s flawed. BBC had a video on their website showing quite clearly a Thai soldier loading his magazine and then his weapon with live rounds. You can also find many pictures of spent ammunition around. Spent ammunition is easy to identify if you are knowledgeable.
#1 is the round loaded in the BBC video and the spent round shell I have seen in pictures and videos. It’s the M193 combat ball round. It’s a live round.
#2 and #6 were not used as I have not seen any reports of tracer fire.
#3 is a dummy to use for training, it does nothing and is easy to identify.
#4 is the M200 Blank that is so talked about. I have yet to see any picture of this cartridge in any report/video from Thailand. It’s very distinct from the others.
#5 this is a Ball round that is not recommended in the M16a1/2 the Thai military is using and should not be used on targets in that weapon less than 90 meters in distance because of the rifling in the barrel will not stabilize the projectile.
#7 is Short-Range Training Ammunition (SRTA). it is very distinct, this is the training round that Portman talks about. I have not seen a spent SATA cartridge in any video or picture either.
BTW ;- none of the M16 ammunition has a wad as is common in low velocity shells like shotguns. As the M16 has a muzzle velocity over 3500F/S anything in the muzzle would disintegrate in only a few feet if the rifle didn’t explode first. During the Vietnam war etc, many M16’s exploded because of drops of water or dirt in the barrel.
It’s easy to identify any round, just look on the end.
Having read Garry’s comment – “And, most Thai’s considered to be in the red camp do not have the access to Internet that many in the yellow camp have.”, it just shows how sad Thailand has always been.
The poor will always remain poor, just because they did not have a ‘voice’, while the rich gets richer and richer. It might be true that the ex prime minister is a corrupted man. But if a corrupted man can help lessen inequalities and let the poor have 3 meals a day, then be it. It is more worthwhile than having politicians who corrupt but provide no positive outcome for our economy and all the Thai citizens, which by the way, includes the poor.
Dickie wants evidence of live, real, metal-jacketed bullets being used. In the parliamentary debate reported today Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban is reported to have “sidestepped the allegation that live bullets were used.” However, he did say that the “majority of the bullets soldiers used were blank”. The reporter claimed that this was “inconclusive”. Really? Seems conclusive to me.
Firstly, the headline is a disgrace. I also would like to echo earlier criticisms about the frequency of statements of the nature of “I was told that …” Journalism has always been a fishy business, but I doubt even the subs at the Murdoch metros would allow those through without a fair amount of squealing about the instant unbelievability that unattributed statements would lend to the the story. I realize Nick is a blogster, but Andrew and Nicholas are academics who get peer reviewed, and it would be nice if they could exert a similar level of quality control over the writers whom they feature and the headlines they write. Nick may feel that the Reds are right, but you are university teachers at ANU, and I don’t think you should be sounding like the flipside of David Penberthy.
I am interested in several things that have come out of the above article. Firstly, I was surprised to see that the Thailand (SEA?) rep for the BBC would have lent his personal equipment to a partisan blogger. Journos in my experience are fairly clubby but very rarely to that extent. Jonathan Head is a very public face for a global media organization that is passionate about its “objectivity”. Nick on the other hand is an emotional sort of fellow, published on social issues to a limited extent, and boldly of the “advocacy” tradition. Head is tainted, obviously not because of this action alone, but it contributes to the undermining of his reputation that has started to gain momentum through his selectively hostile interviewing manner and rash statements about aimed shots.
Furthermore, I was not surprised to read from Nick that “most” Thai police he met were so derelict in their duty that they would openly announce to a sympathetic foreigner that they were abandoning their sworn duty to protect the State and joining the insurrectionists at the end of their shift. Wonderful news for all of us — Thai and foreigners– that live here with families, especially in light of the rozzers’ pathetic performance in Hua Hin and at ringside of the savage display at parliament. Nick has made his bias clear and therefore I I understand his motives for protecting their identity, but it doesn’t stop me from disliking his provocativeness (how would he feel if German police made similar statements at a time when when the Chancellor was in danger of being beaten to death and a gas tanker was primed to explode around the corner from his house?)
A lot of people above have cheered Nick on; wonderful journalism and so on. Pshaw. He was there with a camera and he wrote down pretty much everything he saw through his (to his credit) clearly stated biases. It’s an infuriating piece of writing which makes me want to shake some sense into his thick blinkered head, but that’s what rough-cut reportage is supposed to achieve — an unvarnished emotional reaction. However, please take a deep breath before recommending this for a Walkley.
Well Portman’s hypothetical situation is ridiculous because prosecuting commentators on a national academic website would create a hilarious legal precedent and a significant diplomatic situation.
A government under the red auspice must pursue a liberal democratic mandate, if they don’t then their pretense and position in protesting for Thaksin’s wrongful ousting would be undermined amongst the general populous – and the movements reason for being would subside.
A liberal democratic mandate would be constructive towards relaxing the security surrounding Thai identity and subsequently, relaxing the use of Lese Majeste. There is no need to secure what is already secure in Thais, (or any other nationality for that matter.) If the reds don’t pursue liberal democratic reform, then, if they or a proxy party ever got into government, the use of the Lese Majeste law would be applied much the same as it is now. If Thaksin returns to power, surely, it will only be with a coup of his own.
I think asking ‘how likely is Thaksin rising to power once more?’ would be a more pertinent question. My two cents is that it is totally implausible because he is embroiled in the rigamarole which has produced the mess. The angle he seems to be taking is towards liberal democracy and he doesn’t have a particularly good record of accountability with the previous attempt. This would be taken note of by significant persons backing any strong push for reform and so he’d never find himself the face of the new movement if it were to be considered seriously.
If Thaksin is to be the face of a concerted effort for change, the only way it could happen would be for media to report Thaksin’s ‘new push’ in the style of a Hanryu drama. This way people at home would roll about on the floor in hysterics and Thailand would have an original revolution through laughter. Indeed, it’s about as likely as New Mandala and it’s users being persecuted in a Stalinist purge….
Yes, the wad and hot gas of a blank cartridge can certainly inflict burns and other injuries at close range and even more so, if there is a foreign body in the barrel. I remember an unpleasant incident from my youth when some cadets of my acquaintance had to reimburse a farmer for killing a number of sheep by firing pencils into their heads at close range using blank rifle cartridges, while on manoeuvers. Perhaps it was the wad that passed over Nick’s head, or even a well sharpened HB.
Giles Ungkaporn also refers to Thaksin as a capitalist and a royalist in “A Coup for the Rich” i.e. a class enemy of committed Marxists, even highly privileged ones from distinguished families like Giles. It is clear that he is cynically promoting Thaksin, whom he really views as a fascist, so that he can somehow ride on his coat tails until the revolution happens. Then in his imagination a politburo might purge Thaksin, the royal family, the privy council and other class enemies, leaving the Marxists in charge of smoke and rubble.
If only the red shirts would separate themselves from Thaksin Shinawatra then they would have much more legitimacy. But as long as they carry his banner, then the rest of Thailand will always doubt their intent. Since we have half the rubix cube going, start a green shirt movement and let Thaksin have the reds! Better yet, forgive, reconcile, reach out, discuss and start rebuilding. I am getting distressed at the limitations of items of clothing I can wear from my wardrobe!
Sorry Frank, you have lost me here. Are you the Careful Observer and have changed your name as suggested? What charges and feelings do you refer to? Coherence seems lost or is it that you have missed a contextualisation of a particular comment.
My apologies to Prof. Farelly for mistakenly regarding the post as equivalent ot subscribing to the viewpoint.
Srithanochai: My opinion of the ML’s father, considering his performance as Finance Minister, is also very low. You put underdeveloped in quotes when I did not use that word, please be more careful. Excusing the Post or TNN for giving valuable space or airtime to ML Nattakorn on the grounds that Thailand has to use the resources it has, is a fairly ridiculous argument. There is no shortage of Thai analysts out there who possess more depth, logic, insight, knowledge and writing ability than ML Nattakorn.
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Red shirts on the march
Srithanonchai, you rock!
The crushing of the Red Shirts
I agree with Ecrit above. Turn this blog into an academic journal. Make the BBC’s Head resign for offering to lend a camera to another journalist. Eliminate advocacy journalism so that we may read the facts alone. At least that way we might know about the heinous events in Hua Hin. And don’t ever declare exactly what you are doing at the beginning of an article. That just confuses us.
Lese majeste under a new Thaksin government
Don’t overestimate the political relevance of blogs and new mandala.
As demonstrated in Malaysia, Singapore or Indonesia there is no need to have a LM law to control dissenting views. ISA is in fact far more effecient (might be the reason why Malaysia and Singapore are more advanced) As an authoritarian person Thaksin certainly will follow what he did before that is quitening any dissenting views. Even though it might be difficult to comprehend: the problem in Thailand is not who is the ruler, but how rule is institutionalized. Thus, the question is whether Thaksin as president (or founder of a new dynasty?) will differ from former elites or not. During his time as PM he provided little indication that he might favour a democratic regime.
P.s.: This does not imply that I favour the yellows, but that political change in Thailand is not a question of fashion or of favouring colours for t-shirts.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Portman :- You make a good point but it’s flawed. BBC had a video on their website showing quite clearly a Thai soldier loading his magazine and then his weapon with live rounds. You can also find many pictures of spent ammunition around. Spent ammunition is easy to identify if you are knowledgeable.
This a JPG of M16 ammunition.
http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/moxiepix/b1_1221.jpg
#1 is the round loaded in the BBC video and the spent round shell I have seen in pictures and videos. It’s the M193 combat ball round. It’s a live round.
#2 and #6 were not used as I have not seen any reports of tracer fire.
#3 is a dummy to use for training, it does nothing and is easy to identify.
#4 is the M200 Blank that is so talked about. I have yet to see any picture of this cartridge in any report/video from Thailand. It’s very distinct from the others.
#5 this is a Ball round that is not recommended in the M16a1/2 the Thai military is using and should not be used on targets in that weapon less than 90 meters in distance because of the rifling in the barrel will not stabilize the projectile.
#7 is Short-Range Training Ammunition (SRTA). it is very distinct, this is the training round that Portman talks about. I have not seen a spent SATA cartridge in any video or picture either.
BTW ;- none of the M16 ammunition has a wad as is common in low velocity shells like shotguns. As the M16 has a muzzle velocity over 3500F/S anything in the muzzle would disintegrate in only a few feet if the rifle didn’t explode first. During the Vietnam war etc, many M16’s exploded because of drops of water or dirt in the barrel.
It’s easy to identify any round, just look on the end.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Having read Garry’s comment – “And, most Thai’s considered to be in the red camp do not have the access to Internet that many in the yellow camp have.”, it just shows how sad Thailand has always been.
The poor will always remain poor, just because they did not have a ‘voice’, while the rich gets richer and richer. It might be true that the ex prime minister is a corrupted man. But if a corrupted man can help lessen inequalities and let the poor have 3 meals a day, then be it. It is more worthwhile than having politicians who corrupt but provide no positive outcome for our economy and all the Thai citizens, which by the way, includes the poor.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Dickie wants evidence of live, real, metal-jacketed bullets being used. In the parliamentary debate reported today Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban is reported to have “sidestepped the allegation that live bullets were used.” However, he did say that the “majority of the bullets soldiers used were blank”. The reporter claimed that this was “inconclusive”. Really? Seems conclusive to me.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Portman and LesAbbey speculate on Ji’s position on Thaksin. Why? Just read a bit of Ji’s blog and he tells you what he is doing very clearly.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Firstly, the headline is a disgrace. I also would like to echo earlier criticisms about the frequency of statements of the nature of “I was told that …” Journalism has always been a fishy business, but I doubt even the subs at the Murdoch metros would allow those through without a fair amount of squealing about the instant unbelievability that unattributed statements would lend to the the story. I realize Nick is a blogster, but Andrew and Nicholas are academics who get peer reviewed, and it would be nice if they could exert a similar level of quality control over the writers whom they feature and the headlines they write. Nick may feel that the Reds are right, but you are university teachers at ANU, and I don’t think you should be sounding like the flipside of David Penberthy.
I am interested in several things that have come out of the above article. Firstly, I was surprised to see that the Thailand (SEA?) rep for the BBC would have lent his personal equipment to a partisan blogger. Journos in my experience are fairly clubby but very rarely to that extent. Jonathan Head is a very public face for a global media organization that is passionate about its “objectivity”. Nick on the other hand is an emotional sort of fellow, published on social issues to a limited extent, and boldly of the “advocacy” tradition. Head is tainted, obviously not because of this action alone, but it contributes to the undermining of his reputation that has started to gain momentum through his selectively hostile interviewing manner and rash statements about aimed shots.
Furthermore, I was not surprised to read from Nick that “most” Thai police he met were so derelict in their duty that they would openly announce to a sympathetic foreigner that they were abandoning their sworn duty to protect the State and joining the insurrectionists at the end of their shift. Wonderful news for all of us — Thai and foreigners– that live here with families, especially in light of the rozzers’ pathetic performance in Hua Hin and at ringside of the savage display at parliament. Nick has made his bias clear and therefore I I understand his motives for protecting their identity, but it doesn’t stop me from disliking his provocativeness (how would he feel if German police made similar statements at a time when when the Chancellor was in danger of being beaten to death and a gas tanker was primed to explode around the corner from his house?)
A lot of people above have cheered Nick on; wonderful journalism and so on. Pshaw. He was there with a camera and he wrote down pretty much everything he saw through his (to his credit) clearly stated biases. It’s an infuriating piece of writing which makes me want to shake some sense into his thick blinkered head, but that’s what rough-cut reportage is supposed to achieve — an unvarnished emotional reaction. However, please take a deep breath before recommending this for a Walkley.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Well done…. I love this article.
It is really useful for my report about the red-shirt protesters.
Thank you very much for the information and photos
keep up the good work….
Here I would say that no matter how media blocks the truth
the truth is that, truth is in your eyes – no matter the media try to hide it.
So if the next reader came and disagree with you… remember
you write it with your own experience and facts, why worry?
the truth is in your eyes and the mirror can reflect it!!!!!
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Great reporting, BUT OBVIOUSLY, ONE SIDED, VERY BIASED AND PRO-RED SHIRT, Nick.
Portman’s comments all have points.
Lese majeste under a new Thaksin government
“One of the first acts of new Thaksin government might be to block New Mandala”
Somehow I don’t think NM is that high on Thaksin’s agenda.
Reconciliation in Thailand?
Thailand is a Kingdom, not a socialist/communist state.
In SOE(state of emergency) its no surprise that
blood relatives(however distant) of HMK may
speak without upsetting the Govt.
That two such persons speak up is no
coincidence – maybe they felt a deep feeling to do so.
Its better to focus on their messages i/o “shooting the messenger “
Battle at Dindaeng, Bangkok, 13 April 2009
the government accuse the redshirts….
the burden of proof is on the accuser……
and the burden of hiding the evidence is on the military…
hmmm what does the video mean?
what was all the noise, sounded like many guns firing,
who was shooting? where was it aimed?
how many were killed? where are the bodies?
Lese majeste under a new Thaksin government
Well Portman’s hypothetical situation is ridiculous because prosecuting commentators on a national academic website would create a hilarious legal precedent and a significant diplomatic situation.
A government under the red auspice must pursue a liberal democratic mandate, if they don’t then their pretense and position in protesting for Thaksin’s wrongful ousting would be undermined amongst the general populous – and the movements reason for being would subside.
A liberal democratic mandate would be constructive towards relaxing the security surrounding Thai identity and subsequently, relaxing the use of Lese Majeste. There is no need to secure what is already secure in Thais, (or any other nationality for that matter.) If the reds don’t pursue liberal democratic reform, then, if they or a proxy party ever got into government, the use of the Lese Majeste law would be applied much the same as it is now. If Thaksin returns to power, surely, it will only be with a coup of his own.
I think asking ‘how likely is Thaksin rising to power once more?’ would be a more pertinent question. My two cents is that it is totally implausible because he is embroiled in the rigamarole which has produced the mess. The angle he seems to be taking is towards liberal democracy and he doesn’t have a particularly good record of accountability with the previous attempt. This would be taken note of by significant persons backing any strong push for reform and so he’d never find himself the face of the new movement if it were to be considered seriously.
If Thaksin is to be the face of a concerted effort for change, the only way it could happen would be for media to report Thaksin’s ‘new push’ in the style of a Hanryu drama. This way people at home would roll about on the floor in hysterics and Thailand would have an original revolution through laughter. Indeed, it’s about as likely as New Mandala and it’s users being persecuted in a Stalinist purge….
Lese majeste under a new Thaksin government
Then call me ridiculous. Red and Yellow are different, and saying they are not is a demonstration of not knowing.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Mungo Gubbins #55
Yes, the wad and hot gas of a blank cartridge can certainly inflict burns and other injuries at close range and even more so, if there is a foreign body in the barrel. I remember an unpleasant incident from my youth when some cadets of my acquaintance had to reimburse a farmer for killing a number of sheep by firing pencils into their heads at close range using blank rifle cartridges, while on manoeuvers. Perhaps it was the wad that passed over Nick’s head, or even a well sharpened HB.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Les Abbey #57
Giles Ungkaporn also refers to Thaksin as a capitalist and a royalist in “A Coup for the Rich” i.e. a class enemy of committed Marxists, even highly privileged ones from distinguished families like Giles. It is clear that he is cynically promoting Thaksin, whom he really views as a fascist, so that he can somehow ride on his coat tails until the revolution happens. Then in his imagination a politburo might purge Thaksin, the royal family, the privy council and other class enemies, leaving the Marxists in charge of smoke and rubble.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
If only the red shirts would separate themselves from Thaksin Shinawatra then they would have much more legitimacy. But as long as they carry his banner, then the rest of Thailand will always doubt their intent. Since we have half the rubix cube going, start a green shirt movement and let Thaksin have the reds! Better yet, forgive, reconcile, reach out, discuss and start rebuilding. I am getting distressed at the limitations of items of clothing I can wear from my wardrobe!
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Sorry Frank, you have lost me here. Are you the Careful Observer and have changed your name as suggested? What charges and feelings do you refer to? Coherence seems lost or is it that you have missed a contextualisation of a particular comment.
Reconciliation in Thailand?
My apologies to Prof. Farelly for mistakenly regarding the post as equivalent ot subscribing to the viewpoint.
Srithanochai: My opinion of the ML’s father, considering his performance as Finance Minister, is also very low. You put underdeveloped in quotes when I did not use that word, please be more careful. Excusing the Post or TNN for giving valuable space or airtime to ML Nattakorn on the grounds that Thailand has to use the resources it has, is a fairly ridiculous argument. There is no shortage of Thai analysts out there who possess more depth, logic, insight, knowledge and writing ability than ML Nattakorn.
Ah, but he’s a Devakul…