Mom Luang Nattakorn Devakula is the epitomy of the “amatiyathipathai” the red shirts want “out”: a shallow, muddled thinker, and non talent who wouldn’t be given a newspaper column, television slot, or anything else were he not a member of the privileged aristocracy. Parsing Thailand’s current conflict into “conservatives” vs. “liberals” is about as accurate and enlightening as a Rush Limbaugh radio segment. I think when our good professors start quoting ML Nattakorn Devakula, they have truly reached the depths of intellectual bankruptcy.
Nick: Thanks for your efforts and your explanations.
Your (slight) bias is understandable, and I think most of us here have some sympathy for the red shirts, however I am unable to extend that sympathy to Thaksin, and most of the other elites, because they have already had too many chances to change their spots.
Stay safe & hopefully you can be well (or even adequately) rewarded for your efforts.
I believe that i am much less biased than the majority in the media that demonizes these people without allowing them a voice, which simplistically labels them uneducated thugs that are bought by Thaksin.
Nick,
I don’t think you give yourself enough credit here. Having seen some of your stuff on Thaksin’s drug war, you really have substantive reasons – and legitimate personal reasons – for hating Thaksin. Certainly better reasons that those pro-yellow armchair warriors who vent at him in online forums. That you don’t let this affect your reporting here is truly a testament to your integrity as a journalist.
I am relieved that many here seem to appreciate my work, thank you very much.
To answer a few points of criticism: I am sympathetic to the Red Shirts, and i think that is important. I am coming from a school of photojournalism that has the (outdated?) ideal of giving a voice to the people that generally have no voice in society, and who usually are the poor. The vast majority of Red Shirts are from economically disadvantaged backgrounds, and are demonized by the mass media, especially here in Thailand. I believe that they have very many reasons for their complaints, and do express them with much clarity, yet maybe not as eloquently as a person with a university degree. One just has to open one’s ears and heart, and listen to what they have to say.
I believe that i am much less biased than the majority in the media that demonizes these people without allowing them a voice, which simplistically labels them uneducated thugs that are bought by Thaksin. Thaksin Shinawatra in an ideal world would be an unlikely hero for those disadvantaged sectors of society, but here in Thailand, looking at things from their perspective, they have not much choice, because there are no alternatives for them. The other side has a history of giving much spin, but no, or very little, achievements in real terms in easing the burden of the poor.
If i support Thaksin or not is completely besides the point, however, i do have to respect the choice of the people who support him. And there are more than a few sectors in the Red Shirts who do not support Thaksin, and have a proven history of not having done so.
However, to answer the ones who have accused me of having done a carefully edited text supporting the Red Shirts, should go back, and read the text and have a look at the photos again. I have pointed out criticism clearly, such as the incident with Nipon Prombhand, and have reported them as i saw them from closest distance. I am sorry if it goes against your views, but there were Red Shirt guards and ordinary Red Shirt protesters who have protected Nipon from the more angry members of the crowd. If there weren’t these people, he would be dead now.
I have added images of Red Shirts chasing away the firefighters.
Would i have done so if i would have wanted to present a carefully edited and cleaned up text with the aim of misleading readers into believing that Red Shirts are angels? I could have easily left these images and events out of my report. Regardless of my sympathies – i am primarily a photojournalist. I record and report. I am not an activist or propagandist.
I have not mentioned the gas tank at Din Daeng apartments because i was not there. I could not have possibly been everywhere at the same time. I work alone, unless i have a writer next to me, and can’t split myself into two, i have no office workers that scan news and police radio and who can then send me or a coworker to where things might happen.
I do not trust any second and third hand information, especially one that has not been confirmed by several trusted and proven sources of mine. As an example of why i do not do this i can only cite the events at Petchaburi Soi 5. I have read much about the Red Shirts causing havoc there, aggravating locals. Yet rarely do i read that guns were fired out of there, and that several Red Shirts were wounded by those guns.
We get so much spin on events, that it is almost impossible to get down to the bare facts. Therefore i decided to write what i have seen, and no more. When i have not directly seen things, which though are important to the report, i have made that clear as well.
I can only challenge my critics here to please go out themselves and to do their own reporting, and then write what they have seen and experienced. I have not reserved the sole position to report on these events. Anybody can do this. In this day and age of the WWW anybody can do what previously only journalists did. There is always more than one view on things, and interpretations of events can differ.
It would even make my life a lot less dangerous if at times there would be more reporters around doing what i do, because it would draw attention away from me. Do not think that i am entirely comfortable with having my name around all the time. No big network that can back me up, and i have not enough money to buy me security in case things go wrong. I have to rely on my wits, and the goodwill of friends.
Here is a link by a friend bystander who followed the last 2 days of riots, and his comment to his friends abroad, enquiring about his and his wife’ safety. The author has given me permission to publish the following:
“This morning the Red Shirt faction decided to call it quits and have stopped their protests. This had more than a little to do with the fact that, despite weeks of effort and the expense of considerable coin, they could not even raise a crowd as big as that found at a typical Thai department store on a slow day.
I believe the crucial event occurred Monday when the red shirts attempted to occupy Siam Square. If there is one thing you don’t mess with in Thailand, it is shopping, and they clearly crossed that line.
For those who are interested, I’ve put up a photo gallery of shots I made in the last two days. You can see it here:
Excellent survey, Ryan. It’s fascinating how the Chinese establishment seems to be to be making sense of the future evolution of Chinese politics by using Thailand as a case study.
Plato
A Thai (#19 and 37), you seem to imply that you have a PhD. So what?
Do you really think the American and British Press can be bought by the Thai authority or whoever? It’s more than a pity to see what you wrote. Your assertion is as silly as a child’s. And you expect people to believe you have a doctoral degree?
Yes I am silly enough to think that the way the US Ambassador went to see Prem and UK Ambassador discussed with Apisit and then the news fronm CNN and BBC changed into the way similar to the propaganda by Thai TV.
I am Thai, I told my background because you usually blame that we are uneducated. I have my right to think about what going on. What can I think is They protect their benefits such as Tesco-Lotus which wide spreads in every city in Thailand and the oil company. That the way I think money can buy one way or the other ways.
We are Thai, we have to think what going on in the world when the media think it is right to kill bare hands Thai by Thai solders under Apisit government ordered. And most of the wavesite that we used were closed, only one channel TV that report differently was also closed.
If there is pure repression against the Red-shirts, there will simply be no more Thailand. The Thai state is an artificial construction by the Thai military, instituted in 1937. Inflamed regional identities have been brewing ever-larger for decades now – and will burst into a break-away by Isaarn (North-East Thailand, 60% of the population, who primarily speak Lao and Khmer, not Thai), and Lanna (Chiang Mai, Chieng Rai, etc.).
However, it seems Abhisit is very aware of this possibility, and is doing all he can to reach a compromise. I like him.
But how notable is the abscence of any mention of the King or of the rural divide with Chinese foreign policy largely dictated by a philosophy of non-intervention? With Chinese media freedom ranked 161st in the world (http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=8247) I would be more surprised than anything if they were mentioned! I think that if Chinese media were to be going beyond the analysis you have outlined, it would have to reflect a dramatic change in CCP policy. Maybe this noted absence more reflects your own expectations for Chinese regional involvement?
Outstanding piece of work, Nick. Don’t worry about showing your bias. Everyone is biased. You took the trouble to point out that this report was written from your own particular viewpoint and made no claims that it was the whole truth. That job will have to be left to historians.
It was a privilege to meet you inside the Royal Cliff as the reds were streaming in. Keep up the good work.
Well Ralph, I’m not really sure exactly what democracy is, but if it is the miserable, bovine, materialist, farang style corpocracy that Thailand seems to aspire to, then I don’t think it’s quite there yet. The ‘rule of law’ is an essential prerequisite for that kind of society, and I would agree that this is something Thailand has unfortunately been unable to adhere to.
I will believe, until I hear convincing evidence to the contrary, that Abhisit is sincere in his convictions regarding democracy, human rights, and the rule of law. I also believe that he is making a decent job of representing the views of his constituents, the much maligned ‘middle class elite’ (a social grouping to which I am gradually becoming assimilated). It may come as a surprise to many New Mandala readers that the vast majority of such people (who represent, at the very least, a third of the population, and overwhelmingly earn much less than, for example, an Australian academic) also believe in ‘democracy’ and that, in fact, all 20+ million of them did not take over Suvarnabhumi airport.
A great and sensational piece of first-hand report? Definitely.
But an excellent piece of journalism? Come on!
Even Nick himself didn’t pretend to be an unbiased journalist. This is clearly NOT a report which offered a balanced view of the event.
A Thai (#19 and 37), you seem to imply that you have a PhD. So what?
Do you really think the American and British Press can be bought by the Thai authority or whoever? It’s more than a pity to see what you wrote. Your assertion is as silly as a child’s. And you expect people to believe you have a doctoral degree?
Unbiased reporting? you must be kidding! what about pictures of the red shirt making cocktail molotovs, what about the busses on fire? what about the red shirt man stomping on Niphon Prompan? What about the destruction of property?
Give me a break.
This is a carefully edited reporting by someone who has clearly taken sides, as he states that he “thinks” that soldiers have killed some red shirts.
Considering the aggressive behavior of the red shirt compared to the PAD, it is amazing that there were so few casualties.
Two innocent civilians, who were trying to protect their homes from the leaking gas trucks brought by the red shirts, were killed, by red shirts.
No apologies by red shirts, just unsubstantiated claims that some of “theirs” had been killed. No names, nothing after 4 days.
BTW my landlord is a middle-class battler/public servant and she keeps telling me it’s public knowledge here that Thaksin paid protesters from Chieng Mai (his home town) 1,500 baht per day per person to go to Pattaya and run amok.
Of course, some of the yellow shirts were bused and fed for free, but to my knowledge, none were paid protesters like Thaksin’s rent-a-mob. Of course, if some were happy to work for free I sure he wouldn’t have minded.
Van Tasker’s comments and those of other such as Portman and LesAbbey deserve serious attention. Thaksin buys the international media, they ignore Thaksin’s faults, the peasants are revolting (in more ways than one).
These views are remarkably common especially in Thailand amongst yellows and the Democrats. I keep receiving emails from educated and previously politically progressive persons who keep making these points.
I have had a long debate with a politician who repeatedly states that Chang Noi is hired by Thaksin and the evidence is that they have “never” written about Thaksin’s faults, most especially the war on drugs. When I give him copies of articles where they have done exactly that, he shuts up. When the political temperature goes up again, I receive the same comments again. Back to square 1 as he sends me all the emails from his friends who make all the same accusations. Their conversations are self-reinforcing.
One has to ask why this is? I think it is fear. Fear that the ideological structures are collapsing. Fear that the military and police are no longer reliable in keeping the unwashed in their place. Fear that the ruffians will burn their houses down.
Looking through the pictures from the uprising, they may be right to worry and be scared.
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Reconciliation in Thailand?
Mom Luang Nattakorn Devakula is the epitomy of the “amatiyathipathai” the red shirts want “out”: a shallow, muddled thinker, and non talent who wouldn’t be given a newspaper column, television slot, or anything else were he not a member of the privileged aristocracy. Parsing Thailand’s current conflict into “conservatives” vs. “liberals” is about as accurate and enlightening as a Rush Limbaugh radio segment. I think when our good professors start quoting ML Nattakorn Devakula, they have truly reached the depths of intellectual bankruptcy.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Nick: Thanks for your efforts and your explanations.
Your (slight) bias is understandable, and I think most of us here have some sympathy for the red shirts, however I am unable to extend that sympathy to Thaksin, and most of the other elites, because they have already had too many chances to change their spots.
Stay safe & hopefully you can be well (or even adequately) rewarded for your efforts.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
I believe that i am much less biased than the majority in the media that demonizes these people without allowing them a voice, which simplistically labels them uneducated thugs that are bought by Thaksin.
Nick,
I don’t think you give yourself enough credit here. Having seen some of your stuff on Thaksin’s drug war, you really have substantive reasons – and legitimate personal reasons – for hating Thaksin. Certainly better reasons that those pro-yellow armchair warriors who vent at him in online forums. That you don’t let this affect your reporting here is truly a testament to your integrity as a journalist.
Keep up the good work!
-Tettyan
The crushing of the Red Shirts
I am relieved that many here seem to appreciate my work, thank you very much.
To answer a few points of criticism: I am sympathetic to the Red Shirts, and i think that is important. I am coming from a school of photojournalism that has the (outdated?) ideal of giving a voice to the people that generally have no voice in society, and who usually are the poor. The vast majority of Red Shirts are from economically disadvantaged backgrounds, and are demonized by the mass media, especially here in Thailand. I believe that they have very many reasons for their complaints, and do express them with much clarity, yet maybe not as eloquently as a person with a university degree. One just has to open one’s ears and heart, and listen to what they have to say.
I believe that i am much less biased than the majority in the media that demonizes these people without allowing them a voice, which simplistically labels them uneducated thugs that are bought by Thaksin. Thaksin Shinawatra in an ideal world would be an unlikely hero for those disadvantaged sectors of society, but here in Thailand, looking at things from their perspective, they have not much choice, because there are no alternatives for them. The other side has a history of giving much spin, but no, or very little, achievements in real terms in easing the burden of the poor.
If i support Thaksin or not is completely besides the point, however, i do have to respect the choice of the people who support him. And there are more than a few sectors in the Red Shirts who do not support Thaksin, and have a proven history of not having done so.
However, to answer the ones who have accused me of having done a carefully edited text supporting the Red Shirts, should go back, and read the text and have a look at the photos again. I have pointed out criticism clearly, such as the incident with Nipon Prombhand, and have reported them as i saw them from closest distance. I am sorry if it goes against your views, but there were Red Shirt guards and ordinary Red Shirt protesters who have protected Nipon from the more angry members of the crowd. If there weren’t these people, he would be dead now.
I have added images of Red Shirts chasing away the firefighters.
Would i have done so if i would have wanted to present a carefully edited and cleaned up text with the aim of misleading readers into believing that Red Shirts are angels? I could have easily left these images and events out of my report. Regardless of my sympathies – i am primarily a photojournalist. I record and report. I am not an activist or propagandist.
I have not mentioned the gas tank at Din Daeng apartments because i was not there. I could not have possibly been everywhere at the same time. I work alone, unless i have a writer next to me, and can’t split myself into two, i have no office workers that scan news and police radio and who can then send me or a coworker to where things might happen.
I do not trust any second and third hand information, especially one that has not been confirmed by several trusted and proven sources of mine. As an example of why i do not do this i can only cite the events at Petchaburi Soi 5. I have read much about the Red Shirts causing havoc there, aggravating locals. Yet rarely do i read that guns were fired out of there, and that several Red Shirts were wounded by those guns.
We get so much spin on events, that it is almost impossible to get down to the bare facts. Therefore i decided to write what i have seen, and no more. When i have not directly seen things, which though are important to the report, i have made that clear as well.
I can only challenge my critics here to please go out themselves and to do their own reporting, and then write what they have seen and experienced. I have not reserved the sole position to report on these events. Anybody can do this. In this day and age of the WWW anybody can do what previously only journalists did. There is always more than one view on things, and interpretations of events can differ.
It would even make my life a lot less dangerous if at times there would be more reporters around doing what i do, because it would draw attention away from me. Do not think that i am entirely comfortable with having my name around all the time. No big network that can back me up, and i have not enough money to buy me security in case things go wrong. I have to rely on my wits, and the goodwill of friends.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
@Van Tasker: perhaps you could write your own report, seeing as you “were there” and are able to “speak and hear Thai”
Thanks, Nick for a great first hand account. personal opinion and bias are bound to creep in, but I don’t doubt your underlying honesty.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Here is a link by a friend bystander who followed the last 2 days of riots, and his comment to his friends abroad, enquiring about his and his wife’ safety. The author has given me permission to publish the following:
“This morning the Red Shirt faction decided to call it quits and have stopped their protests. This had more than a little to do with the fact that, despite weeks of effort and the expense of considerable coin, they could not even raise a crowd as big as that found at a typical Thai department store on a slow day.
I believe the crucial event occurred Monday when the red shirts attempted to occupy Siam Square. If there is one thing you don’t mess with in Thailand, it is shopping, and they clearly crossed that line.
For those who are interested, I’ve put up a photo gallery of shots I made in the last two days. You can see it here:
http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/photo-galleries/thai-rak-thai-express/index.html“
Chinese media on recent Thai politics
Excellent survey, Ryan. It’s fascinating how the Chinese establishment seems to be to be making sense of the future evolution of Chinese politics by using Thailand as a case study.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Plato
A Thai (#19 and 37), you seem to imply that you have a PhD. So what?
Do you really think the American and British Press can be bought by the Thai authority or whoever? It’s more than a pity to see what you wrote. Your assertion is as silly as a child’s. And you expect people to believe you have a doctoral degree?
Yes I am silly enough to think that the way the US Ambassador went to see Prem and UK Ambassador discussed with Apisit and then the news fronm CNN and BBC changed into the way similar to the propaganda by Thai TV.
I am Thai, I told my background because you usually blame that we are uneducated. I have my right to think about what going on. What can I think is They protect their benefits such as Tesco-Lotus which wide spreads in every city in Thailand and the oil company. That the way I think money can buy one way or the other ways.
We are Thai, we have to think what going on in the world when the media think it is right to kill bare hands Thai by Thai solders under Apisit government ordered. And most of the wavesite that we used were closed, only one channel TV that report differently was also closed.
Enjoy your luxury lie from Thai media.
Reconciliation in Thailand?
If there is pure repression against the Red-shirts, there will simply be no more Thailand. The Thai state is an artificial construction by the Thai military, instituted in 1937. Inflamed regional identities have been brewing ever-larger for decades now – and will burst into a break-away by Isaarn (North-East Thailand, 60% of the population, who primarily speak Lao and Khmer, not Thai), and Lanna (Chiang Mai, Chieng Rai, etc.).
However, it seems Abhisit is very aware of this possibility, and is doing all he can to reach a compromise. I like him.
Chinese media on recent Thai politics
But how notable is the abscence of any mention of the King or of the rural divide with Chinese foreign policy largely dictated by a philosophy of non-intervention? With Chinese media freedom ranked 161st in the world (http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=8247) I would be more surprised than anything if they were mentioned! I think that if Chinese media were to be going beyond the analysis you have outlined, it would have to reflect a dramatic change in CCP policy. Maybe this noted absence more reflects your own expectations for Chinese regional involvement?
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Outstanding piece of work, Nick. Don’t worry about showing your bias. Everyone is biased. You took the trouble to point out that this report was written from your own particular viewpoint and made no claims that it was the whole truth. That job will have to be left to historians.
It was a privilege to meet you inside the Royal Cliff as the reds were streaming in. Keep up the good work.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
” It is more than important though that Red Shirts have a voice in the media.”
It appears fairly clear that they have found at least one.
How will this messy chapter end?
Well Ralph, I’m not really sure exactly what democracy is, but if it is the miserable, bovine, materialist, farang style corpocracy that Thailand seems to aspire to, then I don’t think it’s quite there yet. The ‘rule of law’ is an essential prerequisite for that kind of society, and I would agree that this is something Thailand has unfortunately been unable to adhere to.
I will believe, until I hear convincing evidence to the contrary, that Abhisit is sincere in his convictions regarding democracy, human rights, and the rule of law. I also believe that he is making a decent job of representing the views of his constituents, the much maligned ‘middle class elite’ (a social grouping to which I am gradually becoming assimilated). It may come as a surprise to many New Mandala readers that the vast majority of such people (who represent, at the very least, a third of the population, and overwhelmingly earn much less than, for example, an Australian academic) also believe in ‘democracy’ and that, in fact, all 20+ million of them did not take over Suvarnabhumi airport.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Very well said, North. (#36) 🙂
A great and sensational piece of first-hand report? Definitely.
But an excellent piece of journalism? Come on!
Even Nick himself didn’t pretend to be an unbiased journalist. This is clearly NOT a report which offered a balanced view of the event.
A Thai (#19 and 37), you seem to imply that you have a PhD. So what?
Do you really think the American and British Press can be bought by the Thai authority or whoever? It’s more than a pity to see what you wrote. Your assertion is as silly as a child’s. And you expect people to believe you have a doctoral degree?
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Unbiased reporting? you must be kidding! what about pictures of the red shirt making cocktail molotovs, what about the busses on fire? what about the red shirt man stomping on Niphon Prompan? What about the destruction of property?
Give me a break.
This is a carefully edited reporting by someone who has clearly taken sides, as he states that he “thinks” that soldiers have killed some red shirts.
Considering the aggressive behavior of the red shirt compared to the PAD, it is amazing that there were so few casualties.
Two innocent civilians, who were trying to protect their homes from the leaking gas trucks brought by the red shirts, were killed, by red shirts.
No apologies by red shirts, just unsubstantiated claims that some of “theirs” had been killed. No names, nothing after 4 days.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Ralph – since when is a “feeling” the same as a “charge” ?
Please try to remain coherent and not muddy the waters further –
otherwise stick to being a bus driver.
Thaksin Rap
Yeah – old ‘square face’ is a real clown!
BTW my landlord is a middle-class battler/public servant and she keeps telling me it’s public knowledge here that Thaksin paid protesters from Chieng Mai (his home town) 1,500 baht per day per person to go to Pattaya and run amok.
Of course, some of the yellow shirts were bused and fed for free, but to my knowledge, none were paid protesters like Thaksin’s rent-a-mob. Of course, if some were happy to work for free I sure he wouldn’t have minded.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Van Tasker’s comments and those of other such as Portman and LesAbbey deserve serious attention. Thaksin buys the international media, they ignore Thaksin’s faults, the peasants are revolting (in more ways than one).
These views are remarkably common especially in Thailand amongst yellows and the Democrats. I keep receiving emails from educated and previously politically progressive persons who keep making these points.
I have had a long debate with a politician who repeatedly states that Chang Noi is hired by Thaksin and the evidence is that they have “never” written about Thaksin’s faults, most especially the war on drugs. When I give him copies of articles where they have done exactly that, he shuts up. When the political temperature goes up again, I receive the same comments again. Back to square 1 as he sends me all the emails from his friends who make all the same accusations. Their conversations are self-reinforcing.
One has to ask why this is? I think it is fear. Fear that the ideological structures are collapsing. Fear that the military and police are no longer reliable in keeping the unwashed in their place. Fear that the ruffians will burn their houses down.
Looking through the pictures from the uprising, they may be right to worry and be scared.
The crushing of the Red Shirts
one word, brilliant!!
The crushing of the Red Shirts
Thanks for this great report, Nick. I saw the dark side I did not know about.