Plato latest #90: For one thing, I never said that people choosing their own leader is not democracy. For another, I never said that it is bad to have an elected representative as the leader of the red-shirted.
Plato, previously # 82: If the Red-shirts haven’t turned to Thaksin, their claim to fight for justice and democracy would be much more credible and they’d have had me on their side.
My criticism of his previous post #84 I ask: what’s wrong with ordinary people wantting to choose their own leaders? What’s wrong whem they had chosen one, and he was illegally overthrown by a coup? What’s wrong, therefore, when they demand justice by insisting he must be returned to his rightful, legitimate place?
If this is not democracy, then what is?
Let readers see for themselve (a) whether my criticism isn’t justified and (b) whether Plato has courage to admit what I previously said.
Ah, Careful, you are showing yourself to be careless. You now make a claim that is completely fabricated. You say that I said: “that the army shot dead red shirts, loaded the bodies on the trucks and took them away.” That is simply your imagination running away.
Show me where I said any such thing.
This exchange began with me quoting a military spokesman who wanted to stop photos being circulated by email. My next comment was on 1992 and I posed the question: “Could a few bodies be taken away without photos being taken?” My answer was that I think the answer is yes. But I didn’t say that it had happened I just said it was possible.
My following comment was on 1992.
So you have been less than careful in making accusations. Change your name.
Er…..forgive me Dantampa, but, haven’t you dismissed the fact that an attempt has been made on a man’s life?
Is that not newsworthy now? Is that ‘inconvenient’ to your beliefs?
How many times have you shot 180 bullets towards a car? How can you say what is and isn’t accurate?
Oh I see……….Everything is a conspiracy now….
How about this for a theory…Perhaps….. ! and this may be hard for you, perhaps, the ‘string pullers’ in this attempted murder, are the leaders of the Red Shirts themselves, and it is one that has been attempted out of sheer cold blood……
Is that a possible scenario?
Maybe…. Just maybe,,,,, they are not the ‘moral’ freedom seekers you people have them prescribed as. Maybe,,,,, they are a bunch of hopeless thugs, driven by power hungry Capitalists, who seek nothing other but control themselves?
Good post Simon.
I’m sure you’ll get plenty of flack from certain quarters, about your positive approach.
But for those of us who choose to live here (for whatever reasons – yours sound much the same as mine- I’ve been here 9+ years), what’s the choice ?
Give up; go home, or go elsewhere?
I am involved with the “elsewheres” you mention – your comments about those other places, are quite reasonable.
I most definately agree with your observation about the honest, hard working and dilligent approach of Thai people(from all different levels- those often classed as, “elite”, right down to the poor, land renting, rice farmers in Isaan). Of course there are those who are lazy,overbearing, dishonest and exploitive of others – human nature.
But, to me, the good, far outweigh the bad – they just need a chance.
I can hear the “nay-sayers” looking at you (and probably me), as the “big boss” lording it over a “subserviant” and “pliant” labor force.
I often get the impression that many non-Thai posters on NM and some other sites, have good intentions, but fail to see the reality of the situation. I doubt your situation is like that – or you would not be making such positive, well informed comments.
Whilst every Thai person, presently at the bottom of the food change, should have the same chance as those at the top, to do better for themselves and their familes, I don’t see, or hear that being espoused by the Red protest leaders, or their boss in exile – just some rarified notion of “democracy”and a return to the days of yore.
To hark back to policies of the Thaksin era, might be a way to win support short term; long term this will not deal with the problems at hand. Personally, I think doing that is a slight to many people(including several members of my family) who have come to support the reds, because of the desire for something better.
Many of the policies of the past have merit and have so far, been retained.
A simple vision, would be to say, how they can be improved – which applies to many programs, such as the 30baht health scheme and the village funds.I don’t hear that – yet.
Offering a nostalgic view, of how it was, provides no vision – just “buzz words”.
There are BIG problems.Things must change.
And, I think anyone who has grown up in a more liberal /open society, than Thailand, will be happy to see a greater sharing of the country’s wealth, spread among all Thais – because we know what benefits those things will bring to this country – all this country.
Further, if “true” democracy (not that vague “buzz word”, Thaksin and many of the UDD leaders use, without explanation)does materialize, everyone will benefit.
Fantasyland?
Perhaps.
But, with just a couple of personalities and groups out of the way, or marginalized, the real unity of most Thais – with real representation by politicians and others who wield power, who care for their constituents, more than their personal wealth – things could change very quickly.
Like you, I live in hope.
z: he seems to be intent on proving that only he himself is right and others who offer alternative views are wrong
I got tired of saying this, but am going to say it anyway: any sensible, rational person should stop using such argument / criticism against others. It’s self-defeating.
When one offers a view, and that view is in opposition to others’, one of course assumes that one’s own view is right and others’ ‘alternative’ views are wrong. Eveyone does exactly the same thing, including ‘z’ when he offers the above quote (that I ‘intent on…’), i.e. he assumes that his view is right and mine, or anyone else’s that don’t agree with his (‘alternative’ to his) are wrong.
The difference is I am aware of such inevitable structure of public dialogue and don’t pretend not to know what I’m doing (offer my view that I think is correct in comparison to others’) and say the opposite, as ‘z’ does.
P.S. sorry for my typing error ‘Pluto’ should read ‘Plato’ (a rather pretentiuos pseudonym but suitable in its pretentiousness of the author’s view on ‘democracy’, I might add).
The news from Matichon newspaper has different information from the Nation newspaper.
1. The Nation information was inaccurate about Sonthi driver’s name. Sonthi driver’s name is Mr. Adul Daengpradap. The name reflected that Sonthi’s driver is a Muslim. What is the purpose of inaccurate information?
2. The Nation also provided inaccurate information about Sondhi’s personal bodyguard last name which should be Mungkalasin instead of Mussi. There were three persons in the car, the driver and the bodyguard sat in the front, and Sonthi was in the back seat. Why the Nation said that there were only Sonthi and the driver?
3. According to Matichon newspaper, Sonthi was transferred from Vachira hospital to Chulalongkorn hospital on the 8th floor of Sirikit Building (Queen Sirikit’s building). Yet the Nation provided subsequent news that Sonthi was transferred to secret undisclosed location. Why the Nation’s news was different from Matichon’s news?
No Color Thai – before you make statements such as :
“Many “non pro-govt” [not necessarily pro-Thaksin] websites were shut down since yesterday, for example, bangkokpundit.blogspot.com.”
I think you should check your facts.
I received a Twitter alert from BP, asking if any people from within Thailand were having access problems. On checking at my inner-city office, I was able to access his site without problems.
We are all quite sensitive to the possibilty of censorship, and so we should be, make such definate statements, without first checking.
I was having trouble accessing Asia Sentinal(still am). I found out about the content on this week’s front page – for that, I think it has been blocked – although it is not on any offical list, yet, that I have seen.
The problems of site access can be anything from, some person at an ISP/server manager, taking things into their own censorial hands, to a techinical fault with delivery.And at this time of year when it is extremely hot – I cannot verify this, not being a techie – but the internet can be very, very slow. I can only think that is the heat.
So, whilst it is good to be vigilant, let’s not jump to conclusions – just because everyone else does.
Sorry I didn’t provide the reference. It’s in a book about the coup. But I intentionally left out the reference because I don’t want to draw too much attention to the author. He’s one of the journalists attending the interview Sonthi gave and therefore, in a sense, is bound by ‘gentleman agreement’ not to reveal part of the interview that was ‘off the record’. That he did is, in this case, a great service to history. I talked to him to confirm the interview but I heard remors of the ‘in my pocket’ remark by Thaksin even before that. I think after Sonthi told that particular story, those attending the interview then told friends and colleagues about it, and the story spread. But what I quoted is the only one somebody put it in print.
I should emphasize that Sonthi definitely told people that Thaksin made the remark. But there is no proof that Thaksin himself said so.
The point is the coup leaders’ motivation was clear: to remove the perceived threat to the monarchy from Thaksin, as Andrew and Nick argue in the article.
Why do you guys waste your time discussing? It goes without saying that the Kingdom of Thailand belongs to the Great King. Terms or conditions as well as “The SpecialThai way “of democracy are all defined by its KING. If you cannot tolerate it, get out of Thailand!
Every Thai is indebted for his or her existence in this very land.
>>>> you are my hero , i am Thai and that how i felt about the whole thing , Thailand won’t get any better than it is now becoz Thai people are not willing to accept the new thing in life, till the King’s gone then Thailand will have a better picture.
Z: “… IMHO, somsak’s line of thought can never amend the rift between the Red and Yellow Faction (and I assume he perhaps see this as irrelevant coz he seems to be intent on proving that only he himself is right and others who offer alternative views are wrong Nga’s argument, however, is very sensible and I think everyone without bias and too much self-certainly can see that.”
Thanks z. I can’t say it better than that.
Somsak: “Sometime when I see people write something along this line, I’d really like to vomit. No kidding. It’s so pretenteous, … … These ‘devada’ can cast their ballot for anyone they like, of course. But don’t ‘dat-ja-rit’ to say that only their choice is democracy.”
People who follow the duscussion here would know that I’ve been mostly a silent observer on this forum. During all this time, I’ve always admired Somsak for his stance, his courage, and his eloquence. That is until now.
His last post in #84 shows he had a way to twist my words. (For one thing, I never said that people choosing their own leader is not democracy. For another, I never said that it is bad to have an elected representative as the leader of the red-shirted.) He clearly resorted to ad-hominem when he called people who disagree with him “devada” and ‘dat-ja-rit’. He can call people like me whatever he likes but he’ll never win any war by pushing people who do not wholely agree with him to the other side. But maybe he just doesn’t care. As z pointed out, he’s too busy proving himself right he doesn’t see why people in the millions are so resentful of Thaksin.
Ralph, you made the charge that the army shot dead red shirts, loaded the bodies on the trucks and took them away. The burden of proof is on you – and you don’t have any. When you can show me photos of the army taking away dead red shirts on trucks, I will believe you.
A number of websites I follow have posters who have started to refer to the prime minister as “PM Opposite,” since he seems to say one thing while his government does the reverse.
For example, he never misses the chance to claim in his best Oxford english that he supports free speech, while his government engages in what looks like the greatest suppression of opposing political views on TV, radio or the internet that Thailand has ever seen since the dictator, Pibun.
The big question is: When the government does the Opposite of what Abhisist says, it is simply reflecting the reality that Abhisit is Apposite to who’s really running Thailand.
Where a Company or a person should put their money is a tough question these days – of course academics like to talk, but seldom do anything to contribute to the economy per se, at least in the short term; longer term, academics have a role in providing solid employees for the future growth of the economy – so from a longer term point of view is Thailand a good place to invest?
Yes.
Why?
Decent labour force with good ethical business standards. I say this with all sincerity; the majority of working people in Thailand are honest, hardworking and loyal – that has been my experience over the last twenty years anyway.
Where else in SE Asia?Vietnam – tough one and still a long way to go – it too one day could have the issues that Thailand is currently facing. Mynamar – stone age – ’nuff said. Camobodia – iron age. Singapore – hmm it’s an option but limited workforce and expensive relatively speaking. Malasia – yes not a bad option. PI – an option but given the amount of natural disasters in any one year it’s just a tough place to be. South Korea? maybe but you just don’t get that warm and fuzzy feeling – do you?
… am I biased – for sure. I live here and my family is Thai – but is Thailand a good place to invest – well, I’d rather be putting my dollars in the Detroit of the East rather than the detroit of the West right now.
One last thought – if a country where to be judged on its humanity by the number of its own people that have been killed in the forming of its “national system” – where do you think Thailand would rank and where would most Western, and other Nations rank?
I’ll let you academics sort that out, while I go back to work.
Dear GoodnessGraciousMe:
This is not the reference to which Ajarn Somsak is referring, but covers much the same territory. There are others if you go looking.
“EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW
Kingdom ‘would not have survived without coup’
One month after seizing power, coup leader General Sonthi Boonyaratglin has given an exclusive interview to the editors of the Nation Group, telling behind-the-scenes stories about how it unwound and his thoughts for the future.
….
I’d like to say two things about the military coup. First, I received calls for the coup from many people.
Second, soldiers are obliged to protect national security, safeguard the nation and uphold loyalty to the monarchy. The military cannot tolerate any leaders who lack or have limited loyalty to the King.
As for remarks that Thaksin was alleged to have made about the monarchy, anyone who actually talked politics with anyone in Bangkok in 2006 heard similar and worse. For obvious reasons, published references would be few.
About the gas tanker in Din Daeng Area. I think the red-shirt was trying to threaten the “Si Wichai Warriors” (yellow-shirted “security guards”) and prevent them from coming out to attack the red-shirted mob. (These yellow-shirted “security guards” live in that area.)
See the Thai TV report investigating on who these Si Wichai Warriors are and where they live in Bangkok. (They are mostly from the South of Thailand and hence “Si Wichai” – an ancient civilization in the south)
Many “non pro-govt” [not necessarily pro-Thaksin] websites were shut down since yesterday, for example, bangkokpundit.blogspot.com.
Decades ago many democratic advocates in Thailand were labeled as communists, leftists. Today they are branded as red-shirted supporters, non-royalists, pro-Thaksin group.
The red-shirted people cannot stop others from jumping in front of their parade to “lead” it.
The Thai people are precluded from running for office themselves so their only “choice” is to choose among those the parties and media and “elite” allow into the arena.
Once things get violent everyone with an axe to grind and a predisposition to violence can don a shirt of any color and wreak his or her violent will upon others.
It is not only in Thailand that ordinary people must band together and create a full-fledged alternative, democratic reality; and when it is accepted by the majority of the people to simply replace the present “reality” with their construct.
If those of the reds who do not live in Bangkok leave Bangkok and return to their villages and then the reds throughout the country democratically administer their constituencies, including electing representatives at Ban, Tambon, Amphoe and Jangwat levels in every province when that is required, then they will have such an alternative reality in hand, working and ready to replace the present “reality” under which they suffer so.
The elected positions would be red party positions and their duties would include organizing whatever can be helpful to the people in the particular constituency the position serves : parent-teacher associations, co-ops, relief groups, news organizations, and so forth.
This is what Hizbullah has done with great success in Lebanon, and Hamas with remarkable success, given the circumstances, in Palestine.
Both of those Middle Eastern organizations have military wings as well, but that need not be the case elsewhere. It’s up to the custodians of the present “reality” in each jurisdiction whether such a military component comes into being or not. If the authorities in the present “reality” imprison and murder the people for organizing themselves then the people will have to protect themselves from the present “real” authorities.
That is the only way forward, worldwide, as far as I can see. Look at the United States as an example of a Western democratic failed state. Change without changing is the present “reality” worldwide. The people themselves are the only possible vehicle for change.
I have to agree that the BOI, like the TAT and the Export Promotion Department and many other government departments is largely a sinecure for well educated wastrels with good family connections – lots of free trips and very little meaningful work. They had better watch out or the Nicaraguans will soon be eating their lunch.
Where but in Amazing Thailand could you have four assassins fire 180 rounds of ammunition point blank into one car and have one fragment of one bullet manage to graze the target’s skull. Some are suggesting that’s strong evidence that the Thai army must have been involved.
As usual, the Nation’s hysterical new bulletins were totally over the top with the the usual political hyperbole. It reminded me of the incident a few months ago at Government House when the Nation reported a yellow shirt demonstrater had died in hospital from a police attack, only to have the man’s physician announce that the patient was alive and almost ready for discharge.
The Nation’s motto should be: All the news that fits the agenda.
its nice to see you guys slowly evolving your previous statements into outright support for democracy
hate for Thaksin is such a nice excuse for so many people that cannot admit that Prem and the generals are the real poison for the people of Thailand and that Thaksin is the only one that was elected and really worked to bring the elite under control of the people.
” I respect and support the right of ordinary people to choose their own leader”!!!!!!!!!
especially when they are showing good normal common sense!
i apologize. Somsak is actually responding to Puto in his above post (although Pluto is responding to Nganadeeleg’ s argument, which I sympathize with). I would say, however, that I have problem agreeing with the following lines from Pluto’s: “But I can say one thing, Abhisit Vejjajiva is probably the most decent Thai politician to have come in a long time. It would be sad if Thailand would have to do without him as a PM.”
So far I have seen plenty of impressive words from Abhisit, but few actions which show that he supports free speech and open society. Still I can wait and see if he can eventually start acting true to his words. While we cannot choose our birthright, and i don’t want to criticize Abhisit’s elitist background, I think Abisit’s class and wealth have a lot to do with his ‘decent’ appearance and that’s not what he has earned by himself( not much anyway) so I don’t want to give him too much credit abt being ‘decent’. Correct me if I misinterprete your ‘decent’ though.
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Crackdown on the reds?
Plato latest #90:
For one thing, I never said that people choosing their own leader is not democracy. For another, I never said that it is bad to have an elected representative as the leader of the red-shirted.
Plato, previously # 82:
If the Red-shirts haven’t turned to Thaksin, their claim to fight for justice and democracy would be much more credible and they’d have had me on their side.
My criticism of his previous post #84
I ask: what’s wrong with ordinary people wantting to choose their own leaders? What’s wrong whem they had chosen one, and he was illegally overthrown by a coup? What’s wrong, therefore, when they demand justice by insisting he must be returned to his rightful, legitimate place?
If this is not democracy, then what is?
Let readers see for themselve (a) whether my criticism isn’t justified and (b) whether Plato has courage to admit what I previously said.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Ah, Careful, you are showing yourself to be careless. You now make a claim that is completely fabricated. You say that I said: “that the army shot dead red shirts, loaded the bodies on the trucks and took them away.” That is simply your imagination running away.
Show me where I said any such thing.
This exchange began with me quoting a military spokesman who wanted to stop photos being circulated by email. My next comment was on 1992 and I posed the question: “Could a few bodies be taken away without photos being taken?” My answer was that I think the answer is yes. But I didn’t say that it had happened I just said it was possible.
My following comment was on 1992.
So you have been less than careful in making accusations. Change your name.
Back to normal?
Er…..forgive me Dantampa, but, haven’t you dismissed the fact that an attempt has been made on a man’s life?
Is that not newsworthy now? Is that ‘inconvenient’ to your beliefs?
How many times have you shot 180 bullets towards a car? How can you say what is and isn’t accurate?
Oh I see……….Everything is a conspiracy now….
How about this for a theory…Perhaps….. ! and this may be hard for you, perhaps, the ‘string pullers’ in this attempted murder, are the leaders of the Red Shirts themselves, and it is one that has been attempted out of sheer cold blood……
Is that a possible scenario?
Maybe…. Just maybe,,,,, they are not the ‘moral’ freedom seekers you people have them prescribed as. Maybe,,,,, they are a bunch of hopeless thugs, driven by power hungry Capitalists, who seek nothing other but control themselves?
“…the perfect time for your business to grow in Thailand”
Good post Simon.
I’m sure you’ll get plenty of flack from certain quarters, about your positive approach.
But for those of us who choose to live here (for whatever reasons – yours sound much the same as mine- I’ve been here 9+ years), what’s the choice ?
Give up; go home, or go elsewhere?
I am involved with the “elsewheres” you mention – your comments about those other places, are quite reasonable.
I most definately agree with your observation about the honest, hard working and dilligent approach of Thai people(from all different levels- those often classed as, “elite”, right down to the poor, land renting, rice farmers in Isaan). Of course there are those who are lazy,overbearing, dishonest and exploitive of others – human nature.
But, to me, the good, far outweigh the bad – they just need a chance.
I can hear the “nay-sayers” looking at you (and probably me), as the “big boss” lording it over a “subserviant” and “pliant” labor force.
I often get the impression that many non-Thai posters on NM and some other sites, have good intentions, but fail to see the reality of the situation. I doubt your situation is like that – or you would not be making such positive, well informed comments.
Whilst every Thai person, presently at the bottom of the food change, should have the same chance as those at the top, to do better for themselves and their familes, I don’t see, or hear that being espoused by the Red protest leaders, or their boss in exile – just some rarified notion of “democracy”and a return to the days of yore.
To hark back to policies of the Thaksin era, might be a way to win support short term; long term this will not deal with the problems at hand. Personally, I think doing that is a slight to many people(including several members of my family) who have come to support the reds, because of the desire for something better.
Many of the policies of the past have merit and have so far, been retained.
A simple vision, would be to say, how they can be improved – which applies to many programs, such as the 30baht health scheme and the village funds.I don’t hear that – yet.
Offering a nostalgic view, of how it was, provides no vision – just “buzz words”.
There are BIG problems.Things must change.
And, I think anyone who has grown up in a more liberal /open society, than Thailand, will be happy to see a greater sharing of the country’s wealth, spread among all Thais – because we know what benefits those things will bring to this country – all this country.
Further, if “true” democracy (not that vague “buzz word”, Thaksin and many of the UDD leaders use, without explanation)does materialize, everyone will benefit.
Fantasyland?
Perhaps.
But, with just a couple of personalities and groups out of the way, or marginalized, the real unity of most Thais – with real representation by politicians and others who wield power, who care for their constituents, more than their personal wealth – things could change very quickly.
Like you, I live in hope.
Crackdown on the reds?
z:
he seems to be intent on proving that only he himself is right and others who offer alternative views are wrong
I got tired of saying this, but am going to say it anyway: any sensible, rational person should stop using such argument / criticism against others. It’s self-defeating.
When one offers a view, and that view is in opposition to others’, one of course assumes that one’s own view is right and others’ ‘alternative’ views are wrong. Eveyone does exactly the same thing, including ‘z’ when he offers the above quote (that I ‘intent on…’), i.e. he assumes that his view is right and mine, or anyone else’s that don’t agree with his (‘alternative’ to his) are wrong.
The difference is I am aware of such inevitable structure of public dialogue and don’t pretend not to know what I’m doing (offer my view that I think is correct in comparison to others’) and say the opposite, as ‘z’ does.
P.S. sorry for my typing error ‘Pluto’ should read ‘Plato’ (a rather pretentiuos pseudonym but suitable in its pretentiousness of the author’s view on ‘democracy’, I might add).
Back to normal?
р╕Щр╕▓р╕в р╕кр╕Щр╕Шр╕┤ р╕ер╕┤р╣Йр╕бр╕Чр╕нр╕Зр╕Бр╕╕р╕е р╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Ър╕▓р╕Фр╣Ар╕Ир╣Зр╕Ър╣Ар╕Ыр╣Зр╕Щр╣Бр╕Ьр╕ер╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕ир╕╡р╕гр╕йр╕░р╕Фр╣Йр╕▓р╕Щр╕Вр╕зр╕▓ р╕Щр╕│р╕кр╣Ир╕Зр╣Вр╕гр╕Зр╕Юр╕вр╕▓р╕Ър╕▓р╕ер╕зр╕Кр╕┤р╕гр╕░, р╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕нр╕Фр╕╕р╕ер╕вр╣М р╣Бр╕Фр╕Зр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Фр╕▒р╕Ъ р╕Др╕Щр╕Вр╕▒р╕Ър╕гр╕Цр╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕кр╕Щр╕Шр╕┤ р╕Цр╕╣р╕Бр╕вр╕┤р╕Зр╣Ар╕Вр╣Йр╕▓р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕ер╕│р╕Хр╕▒р╕зр╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕ир╕╡р╕гр╕йр╕░р╕нр╕▓р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕кр╕▓р╕лр╕▒р╕к р╕Цр╕╣р╕Бр╕Щр╕│р╕кр╣Ир╕Зр╣Вр╕гр╕Зр╕Юр╕вр╕▓р╕Ър╕▓р╕ер╕бр╕┤р╕Кр╕Кр╕▒р╣Ир╕Щ р╣Бр╕ер╕░р╕Щр╕▓р╕вр╕зр╕▓р╕вр╕╕р╕ар╕▒р╕Бр╕Фр╕┤р╣М р╕бр╕▒р╕ер╕Др╕ер╕░р╕кр╕┤р╕Щр╕Шр╕╕р╣М р╕нр╕▓р╕вр╕╕ 40 р╕Ыр╕╡ р╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╣Мр╕Фр╕Ыр╕гр╕░р╕Ир╕│р╕Хр╕▒р╕зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Щр╕▒р╣Ир╕Зр╕бр╕▓р╕Фр╣Йр╕▓р╕Щр╕лр╕Щр╣Йр╕▓р╕Др╕╣р╣Ир╕Бр╕▒р╕Ър╕Др╕Щр╕Вр╕▒р╕Ър╣Др╕Фр╣Йр╕гр╕▒р╕Ър╕Ър╕▓р╕Фр╣Ар╕Ир╣Зр╕Ър╣Ар╕ер╣Зр╕Бр╕Щр╣Йр╕нр╕вр╕Цр╕╣р╕Бр╕Щр╕│р╕кр╣Ир╕Зр╣Вр╕гр╕Зр╕Юр╕вр╕▓р╕Ър╕▓р╕е р╕бр╕┤р╕Кр╕Кр╕▒р╣Ир╕Щ
р╕лр╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╕Бр╕▓р╕гр╕Ьр╣Ир╕▓р╕Хр╕▒р╕Фр╕кр╕бр╕нр╕Зр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕бр╕╡р╣Ар╕ир╕йр╕Бр╕гр╕░р╕кр╕╕р╕Щр╕Эр╕▒р╕Зр╣Гр╕Щр╕Бр╕░р╣Вр╕лр╕ер╕Бр╕ир╕╡р╕гр╕йр╕░ р╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕зр╕▒р╕Кр╕гр╕Юр╕вр╕▓р╕Ър╕▓р╕е р╕лр╕ер╕▒р╕Зр╕Ир╕▓р╕Бр╕Щр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щ р╕вр╣Йр╕▓р╕вр╕кр╕Цр╕▓р╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Юр╕▒р╕Бр╕гр╕▒р╕Бр╕йр╕▓р╕Хр╕▒р╕зр╣Др╕Ыр╕Чр╕╡р╣И р╕г.р╕Ю.р╕Ир╕╕р╕мр╕▓р╕п р╕нр╕вр╕╣р╣Ир╕Чр╕╡р╣Ир╕Кр╕▒р╣Йр╕Щ 8 р╕Хр╕╢р╕Б р╕кр╕Б.
2009-04-17 р╣Ар╕зр╕ер╕▓ 20:21:22
р╕бр╕Хр╕┤р╕Кр╕Щр╕нр╕нр╕Щр╣Др╕ер╕Щр╣М
The news from Matichon newspaper has different information from the Nation newspaper.
1. The Nation information was inaccurate about Sonthi driver’s name. Sonthi driver’s name is Mr. Adul Daengpradap. The name reflected that Sonthi’s driver is a Muslim. What is the purpose of inaccurate information?
2. The Nation also provided inaccurate information about Sondhi’s personal bodyguard last name which should be Mungkalasin instead of Mussi. There were three persons in the car, the driver and the bodyguard sat in the front, and Sonthi was in the back seat. Why the Nation said that there were only Sonthi and the driver?
3. According to Matichon newspaper, Sonthi was transferred from Vachira hospital to Chulalongkorn hospital on the 8th floor of Sirikit Building (Queen Sirikit’s building). Yet the Nation provided subsequent news that Sonthi was transferred to secret undisclosed location. Why the Nation’s news was different from Matichon’s news?
Kavi and Walker on Australian radio
No Color Thai – before you make statements such as :
“Many “non pro-govt” [not necessarily pro-Thaksin] websites were shut down since yesterday, for example, bangkokpundit.blogspot.com.”
I think you should check your facts.
I received a Twitter alert from BP, asking if any people from within Thailand were having access problems. On checking at my inner-city office, I was able to access his site without problems.
We are all quite sensitive to the possibilty of censorship, and so we should be, make such definate statements, without first checking.
I was having trouble accessing Asia Sentinal(still am). I found out about the content on this week’s front page – for that, I think it has been blocked – although it is not on any offical list, yet, that I have seen.
The problems of site access can be anything from, some person at an ISP/server manager, taking things into their own censorial hands, to a techinical fault with delivery.And at this time of year when it is extremely hot – I cannot verify this, not being a techie – but the internet can be very, very slow. I can only think that is the heat.
So, whilst it is good to be vigilant, let’s not jump to conclusions – just because everyone else does.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
GoodnessGraciousMe #57
Sorry I didn’t provide the reference. It’s in a book about the coup. But I intentionally left out the reference because I don’t want to draw too much attention to the author. He’s one of the journalists attending the interview Sonthi gave and therefore, in a sense, is bound by ‘gentleman agreement’ not to reveal part of the interview that was ‘off the record’. That he did is, in this case, a great service to history. I talked to him to confirm the interview but I heard remors of the ‘in my pocket’ remark by Thaksin even before that. I think after Sonthi told that particular story, those attending the interview then told friends and colleagues about it, and the story spread. But what I quoted is the only one somebody put it in print.
I should emphasize that Sonthi definitely told people that Thaksin made the remark. But there is no proof that Thaksin himself said so.
The point is the coup leaders’ motivation was clear: to remove the perceived threat to the monarchy from Thaksin, as Andrew and Nick argue in the article.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Ben Jung // Apr 15, 2009 at 7:38 pm
Why do you guys waste your time discussing? It goes without saying that the Kingdom of Thailand belongs to the Great King. Terms or conditions as well as “The SpecialThai way “of democracy are all defined by its KING. If you cannot tolerate it, get out of Thailand!
Every Thai is indebted for his or her existence in this very land.
>>>> you are my hero , i am Thai and that how i felt about the whole thing , Thailand won’t get any better than it is now becoz Thai people are not willing to accept the new thing in life, till the King’s gone then Thailand will have a better picture.
Crackdown on the reds?
Z: “… IMHO, somsak’s line of thought can never amend the rift between the Red and Yellow Faction (and I assume he perhaps see this as irrelevant coz he seems to be intent on proving that only he himself is right and others who offer alternative views are wrong Nga’s argument, however, is very sensible and I think everyone without bias and too much self-certainly can see that.”
Thanks z. I can’t say it better than that.
Somsak: “Sometime when I see people write something along this line, I’d really like to vomit. No kidding. It’s so pretenteous, … … These ‘devada’ can cast their ballot for anyone they like, of course. But don’t ‘dat-ja-rit’ to say that only their choice is democracy.”
People who follow the duscussion here would know that I’ve been mostly a silent observer on this forum. During all this time, I’ve always admired Somsak for his stance, his courage, and his eloquence. That is until now.
His last post in #84 shows he had a way to twist my words. (For one thing, I never said that people choosing their own leader is not democracy. For another, I never said that it is bad to have an elected representative as the leader of the red-shirted.) He clearly resorted to ad-hominem when he called people who disagree with him “devada” and ‘dat-ja-rit’. He can call people like me whatever he likes but he’ll never win any war by pushing people who do not wholely agree with him to the other side. But maybe he just doesn’t care. As z pointed out, he’s too busy proving himself right he doesn’t see why people in the millions are so resentful of Thaksin.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Ralph, you made the charge that the army shot dead red shirts, loaded the bodies on the trucks and took them away. The burden of proof is on you – and you don’t have any. When you can show me photos of the army taking away dead red shirts on trucks, I will believe you.
On the Songkran crisis of 2009
A number of websites I follow have posters who have started to refer to the prime minister as “PM Opposite,” since he seems to say one thing while his government does the reverse.
For example, he never misses the chance to claim in his best Oxford english that he supports free speech, while his government engages in what looks like the greatest suppression of opposing political views on TV, radio or the internet that Thailand has ever seen since the dictator, Pibun.
The big question is: When the government does the Opposite of what Abhisist says, it is simply reflecting the reality that Abhisit is Apposite to who’s really running Thailand.
“…the perfect time for your business to grow in Thailand”
Why not?
Where a Company or a person should put their money is a tough question these days – of course academics like to talk, but seldom do anything to contribute to the economy per se, at least in the short term; longer term, academics have a role in providing solid employees for the future growth of the economy – so from a longer term point of view is Thailand a good place to invest?
Yes.
Why?
Decent labour force with good ethical business standards. I say this with all sincerity; the majority of working people in Thailand are honest, hardworking and loyal – that has been my experience over the last twenty years anyway.
Where else in SE Asia?Vietnam – tough one and still a long way to go – it too one day could have the issues that Thailand is currently facing. Mynamar – stone age – ’nuff said. Camobodia – iron age. Singapore – hmm it’s an option but limited workforce and expensive relatively speaking. Malasia – yes not a bad option. PI – an option but given the amount of natural disasters in any one year it’s just a tough place to be. South Korea? maybe but you just don’t get that warm and fuzzy feeling – do you?
… am I biased – for sure. I live here and my family is Thai – but is Thailand a good place to invest – well, I’d rather be putting my dollars in the Detroit of the East rather than the detroit of the West right now.
One last thought – if a country where to be judged on its humanity by the number of its own people that have been killed in the forming of its “national system” – where do you think Thailand would rank and where would most Western, and other Nations rank?
I’ll let you academics sort that out, while I go back to work.
Thailand’s royal sub-plot
Dear GoodnessGraciousMe:
This is not the reference to which Ajarn Somsak is referring, but covers much the same territory. There are others if you go looking.
“EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW
Kingdom ‘would not have survived without coup’
One month after seizing power, coup leader General Sonthi Boonyaratglin has given an exclusive interview to the editors of the Nation Group, telling behind-the-scenes stories about how it unwound and his thoughts for the future.
….
I’d like to say two things about the military coup. First, I received calls for the coup from many people.
Second, soldiers are obliged to protect national security, safeguard the nation and uphold loyalty to the monarchy. The military cannot tolerate any leaders who lack or have limited loyalty to the King.
[Then cites other standard reasons, then…]
…We want to place emphasis on having the King as Head of State.
…
Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/10/26/politics/politics_30017169.php
As for remarks that Thaksin was alleged to have made about the monarchy, anyone who actually talked politics with anyone in Bangkok in 2006 heard similar and worse. For obvious reasons, published references would be few.
Kavi and Walker on Australian radio
About the gas tanker in Din Daeng Area. I think the red-shirt was trying to threaten the “Si Wichai Warriors” (yellow-shirted “security guards”) and prevent them from coming out to attack the red-shirted mob. (These yellow-shirted “security guards” live in that area.)
See the Thai TV report investigating on who these Si Wichai Warriors are and where they live in Bangkok. (They are mostly from the South of Thailand and hence “Si Wichai” – an ancient civilization in the south)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwxUuZnej_w
Many “non pro-govt” [not necessarily pro-Thaksin] websites were shut down since yesterday, for example, bangkokpundit.blogspot.com.
Decades ago many democratic advocates in Thailand were labeled as communists, leftists. Today they are branded as red-shirted supporters, non-royalists, pro-Thaksin group.
Crackdown on the reds?
The red-shirted people cannot stop others from jumping in front of their parade to “lead” it.
The Thai people are precluded from running for office themselves so their only “choice” is to choose among those the parties and media and “elite” allow into the arena.
Once things get violent everyone with an axe to grind and a predisposition to violence can don a shirt of any color and wreak his or her violent will upon others.
It is not only in Thailand that ordinary people must band together and create a full-fledged alternative, democratic reality; and when it is accepted by the majority of the people to simply replace the present “reality” with their construct.
If those of the reds who do not live in Bangkok leave Bangkok and return to their villages and then the reds throughout the country democratically administer their constituencies, including electing representatives at Ban, Tambon, Amphoe and Jangwat levels in every province when that is required, then they will have such an alternative reality in hand, working and ready to replace the present “reality” under which they suffer so.
The elected positions would be red party positions and their duties would include organizing whatever can be helpful to the people in the particular constituency the position serves : parent-teacher associations, co-ops, relief groups, news organizations, and so forth.
This is what Hizbullah has done with great success in Lebanon, and Hamas with remarkable success, given the circumstances, in Palestine.
Both of those Middle Eastern organizations have military wings as well, but that need not be the case elsewhere. It’s up to the custodians of the present “reality” in each jurisdiction whether such a military component comes into being or not. If the authorities in the present “reality” imprison and murder the people for organizing themselves then the people will have to protect themselves from the present “real” authorities.
That is the only way forward, worldwide, as far as I can see. Look at the United States as an example of a Western democratic failed state. Change without changing is the present “reality” worldwide. The people themselves are the only possible vehicle for change.
“…the perfect time for your business to grow in Thailand”
I have to agree that the BOI, like the TAT and the Export Promotion Department and many other government departments is largely a sinecure for well educated wastrels with good family connections – lots of free trips and very little meaningful work. They had better watch out or the Nicaraguans will soon be eating their lunch.
Back to normal?
Where but in Amazing Thailand could you have four assassins fire 180 rounds of ammunition point blank into one car and have one fragment of one bullet manage to graze the target’s skull. Some are suggesting that’s strong evidence that the Thai army must have been involved.
As usual, the Nation’s hysterical new bulletins were totally over the top with the the usual political hyperbole. It reminded me of the incident a few months ago at Government House when the Nation reported a yellow shirt demonstrater had died in hospital from a police attack, only to have the man’s physician announce that the patient was alive and almost ready for discharge.
The Nation’s motto should be: All the news that fits the agenda.
Crackdown on the reds?
its nice to see you guys slowly evolving your previous statements into outright support for democracy
hate for Thaksin is such a nice excuse for so many people that cannot admit that Prem and the generals are the real poison for the people of Thailand and that Thaksin is the only one that was elected and really worked to bring the elite under control of the people.
” I respect and support the right of ordinary people to choose their own leader”!!!!!!!!!
especially when they are showing good normal common sense!
Crackdown on the reds?
i apologize. Somsak is actually responding to Puto in his above post (although Pluto is responding to Nganadeeleg’ s argument, which I sympathize with). I would say, however, that I have problem agreeing with the following lines from Pluto’s: “But I can say one thing, Abhisit Vejjajiva is probably the most decent Thai politician to have come in a long time. It would be sad if Thailand would have to do without him as a PM.”
So far I have seen plenty of impressive words from Abhisit, but few actions which show that he supports free speech and open society. Still I can wait and see if he can eventually start acting true to his words. While we cannot choose our birthright, and i don’t want to criticize Abhisit’s elitist background, I think Abisit’s class and wealth have a lot to do with his ‘decent’ appearance and that’s not what he has earned by himself( not much anyway) so I don’t want to give him too much credit abt being ‘decent’. Correct me if I misinterprete your ‘decent’ though.