It unfortunately reminds of why I never visit the Nation or Bangkok Post websites. The way they make every internal link open in a new window is just way too annoying for me. Several excellent blogs keep me up to date with the news from Thailand anyway.
Thailand was seen as the second most corrupt country with a grade of 7.63, but PERC said foreign investors were more concerned about political stability.
Says a lot for the current regime in Thailand. The silent majority will never know the worlds perception of their country due to repressive internet censorship in Thailand.
The dubious assasination plot? This incident had set Thai policeforce a new record. Still, something fishy like the carbomb plot a few years back.
Newin’s latest allegation went in line so well with others, seriously accused Thaksin of planning an overthrown the highest institution.
All of the above will form a good excuse to….stage a coup d’ etat, in order to stop Thaksin’s red army.
Tettyan, the only thing I can really compare this to myself is the loss of religion and overall respect in the UK. Not an overly religious person myself, by any stretch of the imagination, I still can appreciate Thailand’s uniqueness, most good, some bad. I would hate for the wheels to be set in motion that would make Thailand more like Western countries in this respect. I know, I am being selfish….
I like the arguement with regards past leaders, I think thats very true,.. I think the only counter I have to that is; this is how the Thai people choose it to be….. I just asked my wife, ‘If I insulted the King, and got locked up for 3 years, would you agree with the LM law?’ And she said it would serve me right!….. I believe her… Probably doesn’t say a lot for my marriage though LOL.
Interesting what you say about Thai’s being violent. I don’t personally agree that Thai’s are inherently more violent, at least, not any more so than other people I have come across, although I accept Thai’s do have a tendency to ‘blow a fuse’ when provoked. This makes them a dangerous force when provoked by politicians and the like., Incidentally, I have always associated this explosive trait with the LM law in the first place (…in a ‘don’t cross this line’ type capacity). But really and truly, Thai’s are, for the vast majority, genuinely warm and friendly people, which is why it has always been such a pleasant place to visit and stay. Don’t you agree?
Also, I am quite happy to discuss this online with you, but please don’t make comments personal
Fair enough. My understanding of your argument was that you were admiring the King and the respect he commands, suggesting there was some connection between this and respect for authority in society, and the “peacefulness” of Thai society overall. Not only would it be difficult to actually prove your assertion even if data were available to do linear regressions, but intuitively, it wouldn’t make sense to embark on such a study because the dependent outcomes you assert are just not true. Sure, Thais appear to be smiling and friendly people, on the surface, far nicer than people in the city where I live now. But underneath, Thai society is highly violent – though it may not be at first apparent to an outsider. Anyone who has studied local politics in Thailand can tell you that violence is rife – on the same level of the Philippines. A professor of mine once did a survey of attitudes toward violence among ordinary Southeast Asians, and found that Thai attitudes were among the most violent Southeast Asians – more so than in Indonesia!
But those arguments aside – you say you are pro-King. That’s fine. I think most people on this site would agree that the King is sincerely concerned about his country and his people, and that he has done good things for the country. But if people are so confident that the King can stand on his record, what is so wrong with discussing his faults? Historians are free to admire John F. Kennedy for his handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis and they almost all denounce his bungling of the Bay of Pigs fiasco. We can admire Jefferson’s contribution to the American constitutional tradition without glossing over the fact that he was a slaveholder who fathered several illegitimate children with one of his slaves whom he kept as a mistress. We can admire Winston Churchill’s resolve against the Nazis and still critique his record as an arch-imperialist, insulter of Gandhi, his drunkenness and his womanizing. No man is perfect, and even great leaders are often highly imperfect characters. What makes the current King so special so that we may only permitted to admire his virtues and are forced to overlook his faults?
You could’ve fooled me… I was so convinced that NM was part of Thaksin’s plan to rule the world… one obscure academic site at a time!!
Jason: I understand what you mean in relations to your post of Stephan, but in all fairness (as Ben said) when the Thai public are fed up of the LM law, they will rise to defeat it… its a thing about people and repression really, too much of it creates an opposite and often violent effect. The problem with the red shirt movement is that they still haven’t (in the minds of most people) been able to seperate the Privy Council from the Head of State as the line drawn between their ‘public’ and their ‘private’ roles are not very clear. As such, LM used to protect them as well, this latest uprising, if successful, will have 2 effects, the good one that will set up a reformation process of the LM Law, its use and applications, as well as remove the ‘network’ from all political power. If not, it will be very bloody and we don’t really know who will win… at this juncture, we cannot say for sure where the silent majority stand… do they still stand with the protections of their institutions, or do they want a large revolutionary process.
We certainly do delete a fair number of comments, and those that satisfy the criteria of “repetitive ranting” are usually best left offline. On the other hand, we try our best to keep things fair, and certainly appreciate the efforts of NM’s many commentators. Sometimes we do let through more abusive comments (like some on this thread, for instance) just to ensure that the “debate” is heard. As things heat back up again in Bangkok I expect there will be much more to come. And then the accusations, for the umpteenth time, that New Mandala is a paid-up component of Thaksin’s grand plot to take over the world…
Jason #41: My remarks re. Stephan’s posts, in #39, are regarding his breaking of the rules of this site, as outlined in the ‘Please note’ para. , before the comments form. That is all. I have no objection to anyone vigorously putting forward a viewpoint different from my own, provided they argue the case & support it with substantial reasoning & evidence. On another thread I declared my appreciation of Prof. Borwonsak’s paper on LM, despite my utter rejection of the LM law & all of the arguments I’ve seen in support of it, because he presented his argument (such as it is) clearly & provided some specific information. I’m very tired of the posts on this site which repeat the same old litany of ‘we love the king & you don’t, so get out & mind your own business, ‘ or ‘when in Rome,’ and other such rubbish. Their inclusion drags the discussion down to a very unintelligent level (similar to the rabid Bangkok Post blogs), & makes it very difficult to move on. When the posts are not only repetitive & lacking in content, but also abusive & ranting, as Stephan’s are, entire threads begin to look like the work of the Stephans & the boring sexpat-retirees who sit around in the cafes of Hua Hin, endlessly repeating the same old uninformed urban-mythical dogshit.
I think the trick is to exercise editorial rights of excision at the stage where a poster gets repetitive. The odd stabby little prick like pkk#6 enables a laugh & reminds us of the status quo., so I wouldn’t like to see it nuked.
Lawyers know the importance of evidence, especially in criminal case. Being a lawyer, Sanya’s visit to Ananda Mahidol’s death scene had a significant impact on the investigation. Sanya Thammasak was at the death scene before official criminal investigation team arrived. By the time the team arrived at the death scene, all the evidences had already been altered.
The contemporary Thai constitution was created on June 24, 1932 when Khana Rasadon “р╕Др╕Ур╕░р╕гр╕▓р╕йр╕Ор╕г” the People’s Party, with Pridi Banomyong as the leader of the civilian faction, carried out a lightning coup that abruptly ended 150 years of absolute monarchy under Chakri Dynasty. Rama V was during the absolute monarchy, no law was needed in regard to the monarchy. The origin of modern Thai constitution was written by Pridi Banomyong, who received a doctorate degree in Law from Sorbonne University, Paris, France. Thai constitution was basically based on French law.
Sanya was awarded a privy council position and later a prime minister position after the 14th October 1973 political conflict during Field Marshal Thanom Kittikachorn’s government. Witnessing the death scene before the investigation was conducted, had made Sanya the most quiet prime minister Thailand ever had.
Land of Snarls, its a shame, I believe you, however, from my own experience, the streets in the UK are far more violent than the streets of Thailand on a day to day basis. Have you even been to Glasgow, Birmingham, Liverpool, London on a Friday and Saturday night at chucking out time? Have you even been in a street when two opposing sets of football supporters close in on one another with bats and iron bars?
I have. It is violence for violence sake, there is nothing political about it. This doesn’t have to directly translate into murder rates, as in the South, or the links that Tettyan gave, but this is day after day, weekend after weekend, street violence, which has it’s own toll on society, does it not? and in the UK, it is increasing year on year. Also I accept your view on police and off duty police and the harsh corruption involved, disgraceful, and a separate problem I believe.
Tettyan, I don’t think I suggested anywhere that you make the LM laws even harsher did I? I accept your graph is quite shocking…. Do I think there is a correlation between a lese majeste law and a more violent society? Hmmm. That is a very difficult question, I guess neither of us could know the answer unless the LM law was dissolved, could we?
I would like to add I am not an advocate for the LM law, I can see how it’s abuse is real and troubling, but, I am a supporter of the King of Thailand. I believe truly that he is a fantastic asset to this Nation, and that he has tried throughout his life to do the best for Thailand. It frustrates me when, on sites like this, people openly critisize the King, and then propound that they are supporters of Thai people, when actually, there comments about their King would trouble and offend the vast majority of normal Thai’s they claim to support.
Also, I am quite happy to discuss this online with you, but please don’t make comments personal, ie’ I guess you never study statistics at high school’ etc, such comments are immature and frustrating, and actually, they only take away from your own arguements,which are very interesting to me, and which I am very open to hearing….
Before I forget, let me throw in another word of support for Thongchai. I have limited correspondence with him, but it has all been carefully thought-out and direct and to the point without being sidestepped by undue prejudice.
I sent this via email this morning, in regard to the article in the Bangkok Post that basically extols the virtues of being different:
8 April 2009
Professor Uwanno:
I read your article in the 7 April 2009 Bangkok Post (The law of inviolability in Thailand – “secure from violation”), and although rather long the direction it took was rather short; to wit, that once again we have a ‘unique Thai situation’ that everyone else must understand and that human rights are not really part of the equation. Surely you could have done better. Of course, I have not yet seen your other two segments, but if this is the direction they are going to take it is a wayward one.
Your postulate that “different forms of government have been invented to serve the interests of each society” totally ignores the lack of free choice in all of these situations, and certainly the lack of informed opinion and awareness of rights that was there when those so-called unique creations took place, and that carry over into the present where free choice and informed consent are still generally missing.
You have also emphatically stated, in regard to contempt of court, that “British society regards….is the right thing to do for that society” is an old argument that may or may not be valid, but you have expressed it as de-facto. Surely this is not an argument as much as it is your personal position. Even in the United States there is contempt of court, but it does not resemble that here in Thailand where contempt of court can even involve criticizing a court decision. When the king has said he is not above criticism, can the courts do less? So ‘the right thing’ is not the same thing but a different thing and treated differently. It does not mean treated correctly.
Your final statement that “no democrat would judge these countries or societies to be undemocratic simply because they have different cultures and ethical values” is another attempt at begging the question. Culture and ethics are removed from the political process as well as part of it; oversimplifying an argument to favor your position is unfair.
Thailand’s lèse majesté law has come face to face with His Majesty’s clear displeasure of it and how it is enforced, yet Thai politicians and fundamentalist tradition-bound change-resistant quarters might be deemed to be more than glad to ignore His Majesty’s comments on lèse majesté, even to the extent that he had indicated he was not pleased that it is part of a constitutional provision. His Majesty is Thai, Buddhist, and Head of State, yet the rest of the country has paid scant attention to what he indicated in his 2005 birthday address to the nation in regards to lèse majesté.
You may wish to comment on this point in one of your subsequent articles, because many people are wondering why an express preference on the part of His Majesty is being ignored or not being given the attention it demands, for the sake of the nation, the people, the religion, and the culture.
There is an overwhelming effort here in Thailand to interpret international pressure, together with local pressure from Thai and local expatriate quarters on the unjust application of the lèse majesté law as being wrong because it is held to be ignorant and not appreciative and/or understanding of ‘Thai culture.’ Unfortunately, many ultra-royalists and ultra-nationalists here also know that it is not misunderstanding but awareness and legitimate objection. This is part of the issue in the kingdom – that disagreement has been translated (often with ill intent) into lack of understanding. Wrong again.
Sincerely,
Frank G Anderson
American Citizen Abroad Representative, Thailand
Its very unlikely that you would succeed in getting direct people experiences of WW II, simply because of the elapsed time since 1942-45 and now. Even if you do get hold of surviving people from that time, they are more likely to be in Kohima Nagaland and several places in Manipur. These were actual grounds of grim and fierce fighting. The Japanese did not cut through to Dimapur from the Naga Hills. As far as Arunachal is concerned IMHO, the only area that might directly in the action would be along the Stilwell road through the Patkai hills beyond Ledo. Even those experiences would be limited, as the American-Chinese forces crossed over to the Burmese side of the Patkais – where all the action was. All these areas are predominantly Kachin and Naga tribes inhabited. The Kachin Rangers were formed and attached to the US Army under Gen Stilwell and even received Presidential citations for their extraordinary war achievements one of them being a rather grisly “highest kills per loss rate”. Interestingly the Kachins are one of the earliest instances of a sort of local militia raised by the CIA (then called OSS operating out of Assam) to fight foreign invaders, a trend which has continued till today _ Iraq and Afganistan.
Wiphu:
You still seem to be reading things into the script that are not there, or are apparently steering the discussion toward where it does not exist. “Our job” is not to convince you, at least in my case, that democracy is good for all. In a sense I believe that genuine democracy is, but certainly not the kind that parades around these days. Your job is not to convince me it isn’t good for everyone because I already know that.
That it’s not good for everyone is because ‘everyone’ includes the power brokers and extremists who won’t let go of power. That’s the wrench in the works.
Ben Shingleton provides more uniformed comment. Why not read a bit more. There’s tons about but you come up with trite comments made many times before by those apparently too lazy to have an informed opinion.
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The Nation’s “lite version”
It unfortunately reminds of why I never visit the Nation or Bangkok Post websites. The way they make every internal link open in a new window is just way too annoying for me. Several excellent blogs keep me up to date with the news from Thailand anyway.
On lèse majesté
Thailand was seen as the second most corrupt country with a grade of 7.63, but PERC said foreign investors were more concerned about political stability.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25309467-5005961,00.html
Says a lot for the current regime in Thailand. The silent majority will never know the worlds perception of their country due to repressive internet censorship in Thailand.
The Reds in Bangkok today
The dubious assasination plot? This incident had set Thai policeforce a new record. Still, something fishy like the carbomb plot a few years back.
Newin’s latest allegation went in line so well with others, seriously accused Thaksin of planning an overthrown the highest institution.
All of the above will form a good excuse to….stage a coup d’ etat, in order to stop Thaksin’s red army.
Lese majeste in Khon Kaen?
Tettyan, the only thing I can really compare this to myself is the loss of religion and overall respect in the UK. Not an overly religious person myself, by any stretch of the imagination, I still can appreciate Thailand’s uniqueness, most good, some bad. I would hate for the wheels to be set in motion that would make Thailand more like Western countries in this respect. I know, I am being selfish….
I like the arguement with regards past leaders, I think thats very true,.. I think the only counter I have to that is; this is how the Thai people choose it to be….. I just asked my wife, ‘If I insulted the King, and got locked up for 3 years, would you agree with the LM law?’ And she said it would serve me right!….. I believe her… Probably doesn’t say a lot for my marriage though LOL.
Interesting what you say about Thai’s being violent. I don’t personally agree that Thai’s are inherently more violent, at least, not any more so than other people I have come across, although I accept Thai’s do have a tendency to ‘blow a fuse’ when provoked. This makes them a dangerous force when provoked by politicians and the like., Incidentally, I have always associated this explosive trait with the LM law in the first place (…in a ‘don’t cross this line’ type capacity). But really and truly, Thai’s are, for the vast majority, genuinely warm and friendly people, which is why it has always been such a pleasant place to visit and stay. Don’t you agree?
The Reds in Bangkok today
Reds to “Check Bill” PMPrem at 2pm according to Nattawut – that’s in 20mins:
http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1239167121&grpid=00&catid=01
Matichon also reports Thaksin’s wife and three children has left the country:
http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1239116688&grpid=00&catid=01
Lese majeste in Khon Kaen?
Also, I am quite happy to discuss this online with you, but please don’t make comments personal
Fair enough. My understanding of your argument was that you were admiring the King and the respect he commands, suggesting there was some connection between this and respect for authority in society, and the “peacefulness” of Thai society overall. Not only would it be difficult to actually prove your assertion even if data were available to do linear regressions, but intuitively, it wouldn’t make sense to embark on such a study because the dependent outcomes you assert are just not true. Sure, Thais appear to be smiling and friendly people, on the surface, far nicer than people in the city where I live now. But underneath, Thai society is highly violent – though it may not be at first apparent to an outsider. Anyone who has studied local politics in Thailand can tell you that violence is rife – on the same level of the Philippines. A professor of mine once did a survey of attitudes toward violence among ordinary Southeast Asians, and found that Thai attitudes were among the most violent Southeast Asians – more so than in Indonesia!
But those arguments aside – you say you are pro-King. That’s fine. I think most people on this site would agree that the King is sincerely concerned about his country and his people, and that he has done good things for the country. But if people are so confident that the King can stand on his record, what is so wrong with discussing his faults? Historians are free to admire John F. Kennedy for his handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis and they almost all denounce his bungling of the Bay of Pigs fiasco. We can admire Jefferson’s contribution to the American constitutional tradition without glossing over the fact that he was a slaveholder who fathered several illegitimate children with one of his slaves whom he kept as a mistress. We can admire Winston Churchill’s resolve against the Nazis and still critique his record as an arch-imperialist, insulter of Gandhi, his drunkenness and his womanizing. No man is perfect, and even great leaders are often highly imperfect characters. What makes the current King so special so that we may only permitted to admire his virtues and are forced to overlook his faults?
The Reds in Bangkok today
TV news report that the Shinawatra family has left the country according to The Nation update:
http://nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/30099909/Thaksins-family-leaves-Thailand
The uncovering of the plot to assasinate Privy Councillor Chanchai Likhitjittha is also a very bad sign…
The Red crowd has already surrounding PMPrem’s residence – I hope PMPrem’s support group has moved away to avoid confrontation.
PMThaksin and the Reds must mean serious business and I still hope and pray that no one gets seriously hurt.
On lèse majesté
Damn Nick,
You could’ve fooled me… I was so convinced that NM was part of Thaksin’s plan to rule the world… one obscure academic site at a time!!
Jason: I understand what you mean in relations to your post of Stephan, but in all fairness (as Ben said) when the Thai public are fed up of the LM law, they will rise to defeat it… its a thing about people and repression really, too much of it creates an opposite and often violent effect. The problem with the red shirt movement is that they still haven’t (in the minds of most people) been able to seperate the Privy Council from the Head of State as the line drawn between their ‘public’ and their ‘private’ roles are not very clear. As such, LM used to protect them as well, this latest uprising, if successful, will have 2 effects, the good one that will set up a reformation process of the LM Law, its use and applications, as well as remove the ‘network’ from all political power. If not, it will be very bloody and we don’t really know who will win… at this juncture, we cannot say for sure where the silent majority stand… do they still stand with the protections of their institutions, or do they want a large revolutionary process.
On lèse majesté
Thanks Michael,
We certainly do delete a fair number of comments, and those that satisfy the criteria of “repetitive ranting” are usually best left offline. On the other hand, we try our best to keep things fair, and certainly appreciate the efforts of NM’s many commentators. Sometimes we do let through more abusive comments (like some on this thread, for instance) just to ensure that the “debate” is heard. As things heat back up again in Bangkok I expect there will be much more to come. And then the accusations, for the umpteenth time, that New Mandala is a paid-up component of Thaksin’s grand plot to take over the world…
Best wishes to all,
Nich
On lèse majesté
Jason #41: My remarks re. Stephan’s posts, in #39, are regarding his breaking of the rules of this site, as outlined in the ‘Please note’ para. , before the comments form. That is all. I have no objection to anyone vigorously putting forward a viewpoint different from my own, provided they argue the case & support it with substantial reasoning & evidence. On another thread I declared my appreciation of Prof. Borwonsak’s paper on LM, despite my utter rejection of the LM law & all of the arguments I’ve seen in support of it, because he presented his argument (such as it is) clearly & provided some specific information. I’m very tired of the posts on this site which repeat the same old litany of ‘we love the king & you don’t, so get out & mind your own business, ‘ or ‘when in Rome,’ and other such rubbish. Their inclusion drags the discussion down to a very unintelligent level (similar to the rabid Bangkok Post blogs), & makes it very difficult to move on. When the posts are not only repetitive & lacking in content, but also abusive & ranting, as Stephan’s are, entire threads begin to look like the work of the Stephans & the boring sexpat-retirees who sit around in the cafes of Hua Hin, endlessly repeating the same old uninformed urban-mythical dogshit.
I think the trick is to exercise editorial rights of excision at the stage where a poster gets repetitive. The odd stabby little prick like pkk#6 enables a laugh & reminds us of the status quo., so I wouldn’t like to see it nuked.
On lèse majesté
Ben has raised an interesting point about people not wanting to know others opinions.
I think that is a big part of the current problems in Thailand.
Such rigid sticking to ones own opinions without being prepared to consider (or even listen to) other opinions often leads to unnecessary conflict.
Here we go again……
Kavi on Suwicha’s “quagmire”
Lawyers know the importance of evidence, especially in criminal case. Being a lawyer, Sanya’s visit to Ananda Mahidol’s death scene had a significant impact on the investigation. Sanya Thammasak was at the death scene before official criminal investigation team arrived. By the time the team arrived at the death scene, all the evidences had already been altered.
The contemporary Thai constitution was created on June 24, 1932 when Khana Rasadon “р╕Др╕Ур╕░р╕гр╕▓р╕йр╕Ор╕г” the People’s Party, with Pridi Banomyong as the leader of the civilian faction, carried out a lightning coup that abruptly ended 150 years of absolute monarchy under Chakri Dynasty. Rama V was during the absolute monarchy, no law was needed in regard to the monarchy. The origin of modern Thai constitution was written by Pridi Banomyong, who received a doctorate degree in Law from Sorbonne University, Paris, France. Thai constitution was basically based on French law.
Sanya was awarded a privy council position and later a prime minister position after the 14th October 1973 political conflict during Field Marshal Thanom Kittikachorn’s government. Witnessing the death scene before the investigation was conducted, had made Sanya the most quiet prime minister Thailand ever had.
The Stilwell Road
Dear Sarah and others on the blog,
Hi, this is Khine from Burma.
Sarah, if you are going to visit Pangsau Pass in June, you will encounter that due to monsoon, the road will be wet, muddy and slippery.
At least that is the situation for us living in Burma to travel to the NE part of the country bordering India.
Should you need further info, please do not hesitate to contact me.
[email protected]
Khine
Lese majeste in Khon Kaen?
Land of Snarls, its a shame, I believe you, however, from my own experience, the streets in the UK are far more violent than the streets of Thailand on a day to day basis. Have you even been to Glasgow, Birmingham, Liverpool, London on a Friday and Saturday night at chucking out time? Have you even been in a street when two opposing sets of football supporters close in on one another with bats and iron bars?
I have. It is violence for violence sake, there is nothing political about it. This doesn’t have to directly translate into murder rates, as in the South, or the links that Tettyan gave, but this is day after day, weekend after weekend, street violence, which has it’s own toll on society, does it not? and in the UK, it is increasing year on year. Also I accept your view on police and off duty police and the harsh corruption involved, disgraceful, and a separate problem I believe.
Tettyan, I don’t think I suggested anywhere that you make the LM laws even harsher did I? I accept your graph is quite shocking…. Do I think there is a correlation between a lese majeste law and a more violent society? Hmmm. That is a very difficult question, I guess neither of us could know the answer unless the LM law was dissolved, could we?
I would like to add I am not an advocate for the LM law, I can see how it’s abuse is real and troubling, but, I am a supporter of the King of Thailand. I believe truly that he is a fantastic asset to this Nation, and that he has tried throughout his life to do the best for Thailand. It frustrates me when, on sites like this, people openly critisize the King, and then propound that they are supporters of Thai people, when actually, there comments about their King would trouble and offend the vast majority of normal Thai’s they claim to support.
Also, I am quite happy to discuss this online with you, but please don’t make comments personal, ie’ I guess you never study statistics at high school’ etc, such comments are immature and frustrating, and actually, they only take away from your own arguements,which are very interesting to me, and which I am very open to hearing….
The King Never Smiles?
Before I forget, let me throw in another word of support for Thongchai. I have limited correspondence with him, but it has all been carefully thought-out and direct and to the point without being sidestepped by undue prejudice.
The King Never Smiles?
I sent this via email this morning, in regard to the article in the Bangkok Post that basically extols the virtues of being different:
8 April 2009
Professor Uwanno:
I read your article in the 7 April 2009 Bangkok Post (The law of inviolability in Thailand – “secure from violation”), and although rather long the direction it took was rather short; to wit, that once again we have a ‘unique Thai situation’ that everyone else must understand and that human rights are not really part of the equation. Surely you could have done better. Of course, I have not yet seen your other two segments, but if this is the direction they are going to take it is a wayward one.
Your postulate that “different forms of government have been invented to serve the interests of each society” totally ignores the lack of free choice in all of these situations, and certainly the lack of informed opinion and awareness of rights that was there when those so-called unique creations took place, and that carry over into the present where free choice and informed consent are still generally missing.
You have also emphatically stated, in regard to contempt of court, that “British society regards….is the right thing to do for that society” is an old argument that may or may not be valid, but you have expressed it as de-facto. Surely this is not an argument as much as it is your personal position. Even in the United States there is contempt of court, but it does not resemble that here in Thailand where contempt of court can even involve criticizing a court decision. When the king has said he is not above criticism, can the courts do less? So ‘the right thing’ is not the same thing but a different thing and treated differently. It does not mean treated correctly.
Your final statement that “no democrat would judge these countries or societies to be undemocratic simply because they have different cultures and ethical values” is another attempt at begging the question. Culture and ethics are removed from the political process as well as part of it; oversimplifying an argument to favor your position is unfair.
Thailand’s lèse majesté law has come face to face with His Majesty’s clear displeasure of it and how it is enforced, yet Thai politicians and fundamentalist tradition-bound change-resistant quarters might be deemed to be more than glad to ignore His Majesty’s comments on lèse majesté, even to the extent that he had indicated he was not pleased that it is part of a constitutional provision. His Majesty is Thai, Buddhist, and Head of State, yet the rest of the country has paid scant attention to what he indicated in his 2005 birthday address to the nation in regards to lèse majesté.
You may wish to comment on this point in one of your subsequent articles, because many people are wondering why an express preference on the part of His Majesty is being ignored or not being given the attention it demands, for the sake of the nation, the people, the religion, and the culture.
There is an overwhelming effort here in Thailand to interpret international pressure, together with local pressure from Thai and local expatriate quarters on the unjust application of the lèse majesté law as being wrong because it is held to be ignorant and not appreciative and/or understanding of ‘Thai culture.’ Unfortunately, many ultra-royalists and ultra-nationalists here also know that it is not misunderstanding but awareness and legitimate objection. This is part of the issue in the kingdom – that disagreement has been translated (often with ill intent) into lack of understanding. Wrong again.
Sincerely,
Frank G Anderson
American Citizen Abroad Representative, Thailand
The Stilwell Road
Sarah
Its very unlikely that you would succeed in getting direct people experiences of WW II, simply because of the elapsed time since 1942-45 and now. Even if you do get hold of surviving people from that time, they are more likely to be in Kohima Nagaland and several places in Manipur. These were actual grounds of grim and fierce fighting. The Japanese did not cut through to Dimapur from the Naga Hills. As far as Arunachal is concerned IMHO, the only area that might directly in the action would be along the Stilwell road through the Patkai hills beyond Ledo. Even those experiences would be limited, as the American-Chinese forces crossed over to the Burmese side of the Patkais – where all the action was. All these areas are predominantly Kachin and Naga tribes inhabited. The Kachin Rangers were formed and attached to the US Army under Gen Stilwell and even received Presidential citations for their extraordinary war achievements one of them being a rather grisly “highest kills per loss rate”. Interestingly the Kachins are one of the earliest instances of a sort of local militia raised by the CIA (then called OSS operating out of Assam) to fight foreign invaders, a trend which has continued till today _ Iraq and Afganistan.
The King Never Smiles?
Wiphu:
You still seem to be reading things into the script that are not there, or are apparently steering the discussion toward where it does not exist. “Our job” is not to convince you, at least in my case, that democracy is good for all. In a sense I believe that genuine democracy is, but certainly not the kind that parades around these days. Your job is not to convince me it isn’t good for everyone because I already know that.
That it’s not good for everyone is because ‘everyone’ includes the power brokers and extremists who won’t let go of power. That’s the wrench in the works.
On lèse majesté
Rofl too funny Ben , me forcing my opinion , ha haha ha ha stop it your killling me . i bet the thai people dont even see this page.
Lese majeste in Khon Kaen?
Ben Shingleton provides more uniformed comment. Why not read a bit more. There’s tons about but you come up with trite comments made many times before by those apparently too lazy to have an informed opinion.